Cry Wolf and Abomination (again)
s.sch...@kabsi.at
Abomination has been brought up before, back then LSJ replied:
"Typical example involves the Cry Wolf getting blocked and playing
Change of Target."
There is still something I don´t get however:
Cry Wolf text: This werewolf must enter combat with a minion
controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action.
The Embrace text: This vampire must hunt THIS TURN. (emphasis added)
Because of the different wording, I always interpreted Cry Wolfs card
text to mean that, like all allies, it stands around doing nothing for
1 turn, isn´t burned during the next untap phase since it isn´t tapped
(unless it blocked something), and has to (D) attack on that next
turn.
This would allow a 1 turn window for Abomination (With Freak Drive, or
a second vampire, or whatever).
What am I missing?
Jozxyqk
> What am I missing?
Abomination requires the Cry Wolf to be Ready and Untapped.
So:
First: Anarch Convert recruits Cry Wolf (successfully).
At this time, the Cry Wolf is Untapped, but not Ready (by definition of
recruiting).
Then you wait until your next turn. Cry Wolf hasn't been tapped in
the meantime, and it's your new minion phase.
Cry Wolf has a mandatory action (must enter combat as a (D) action), so
it must happen first.
If he takes his action and survives, then he is Ready, but not Untapped.
So Abomination can't be played on him.
But if he takes his action, gets blocked, and plays Change of Target, then
he is Untapped and Ready. And since he has already taken his action, he
can not take it again (by the "no repeat action" rules).
So at that point, he is an eligible target for Abomination.
Is that easier to understand?
John Flournoy
Abomination Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 pool
Capacity: 4
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-sterile vampire.
Burn a ready untapped werewolf ally you control to put this card in
play. It becomes a unique Independent Abomination with 4 capacity,
superior Protean [PRO] and +1 strength. Move up to 4 blood from the
acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire gets an additional strike
each round and an optional maneuver each combat. He may enter combat
with a ready minion as a (D) action.
Note "ready, untapped werewolf ally."
So here's the sequence:
Cry wolf gets recruited. It's not ready until the end of your turn by
the rules for ally-recruitment, so it can't be immediately
Abomination'ed on the same turn.
On your next untap, the Cry Wolf is untapped, so it doesn't burn. It
has a mandatory action, so that must be taken first. At the end of
that action the Cry Wolf is tapped (assuming it survived), so it is
not a valid target for a subsequent Abomination (and the rush must be
taken before you can take an action to Abomination the Wolf.)
On your next untap, the Cry Wolf is tapped and so burns.
So, unless you do something tricky like use Change of Target to leave
the Cry Wolf untapped after it takes its mandatory rush action, it's
never a legal target for your Abomination action at a point when you
can take the Abomination action.
-John Flournoy
Chris Berger
>
> So, unless you do something tricky like use Change of Target to leave
> the Cry Wolf untapped after it takes its mandatory rush action, it's
> never a legal target for your Abomination action at a point when you
> can take the Abomination action.
>
Cog.
s.sch...@kabsi.at
the turn they enter play" rule: "If the action is succesfull, the ally
is placed in the uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to
indicate that it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid)"
So, since there isn´t anything on Cry Wolf saying that it is put
directly into the controlled region, I don´t see how it can act.
Unless, of course, if this is a case of "card text always overrides
game rules". However, in that case, wouldn´t it also bypass the no-
repeat-actions rule, making the Change of Target trick also
ineffective?
By the way, isn´t the "must hunt this turn" clause on Embrace actually
redundant? Since it doesn´t have the "can´t act this turn" clause of
e.g. Third Tradition, there´s nothing to prevent the new vamp from
acting, since there´s no rule preventing a vamp from acting on the
same turn they come into play (apart from the fact that they *usually*
enter play in the Influence phase).
And since it´s an empty Vamp capable of acting, it already must hunt
without the card telling it to.
On the whole, I find the wording of cards that put minions into play
confusing, and, dare I say, inconsistent.
s.sch...@kabsi.at
Chris Berger
>
> By the way, isn´t the "must hunt this turn" clause on Embrace actually
> redundant? Since it doesn´t have the "can´t act this turn" clause of
> e.g. Third Tradition, there´s nothing to prevent the new vamp from
> acting, since there´s no rule preventing a vamp from acting on the
> same turn they come into play (apart from the fact that they *usually*
> enter play in the Influence phase).
> And since it´s an empty Vamp capable of acting, it already must hunt
> without the card telling it to.
>
reminder that this vampire is able to act the turn it goes into play,
in contrast to the other vampire creation cards that can't act the
turn they come into play). But it also prevents the vampire from
foregoing the hunt if you use something like Heidelburg or The Coven
to give it blood.
LSJ
> Addendum: Just read up the latest wording of the "allies can´t act on
> the turn they enter play" rule: "If the action is succesfull, the ally
> is placed in the uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to
> indicate that it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid)"
> So, since there isn´t anything on Cry Wolf saying that it is put
> directly into the controlled region, I don´t see how it can act.
It can't act from the uncontrolled region, true.
It will have to wait until it moves to the ready region (which happens at the
end of the turn).
> Unless, of course, if this is a case of "card text always overrides
> game rules". However, in that case, wouldn´t it also bypass the no-
> repeat-actions rule, making the Change of Target trick also
> ineffective?
At the end of the turn, it becomes ready.
It still can't act, though, since it isn't the minion phase.
So it waits until it's controller's next turn.
Then it can act (and must act), so it does.
If it gets blocked and plays Change of Target, it cannot take that action again,
and it has no other mandatory actions, so it can wait, untapped and ready, for
some other vampire to play Abomination on it.
> By the way, isn´t the "must hunt this turn" clause on Embrace actually
> redundant? Since it doesn´t have the "can´t act this turn" clause of
> e.g. Third Tradition, there´s nothing to prevent the new vamp from
> acting, since there´s no rule preventing a vamp from acting on the
> same turn they come into play (apart from the fact that they *usually*
> enter play in the Influence phase).
> And since it´s an empty Vamp capable of acting, it already must hunt
> without the card telling it to.
Unless the vampire gets some blood (e.g., from Heidelberg Castle).
But yes, the text is mostly reminder text.
> On the whole, I find the wording of cards that put minions into play
> confusing, and, dare I say, inconsistent.
One is a vampire, the other is an ally.
Text for putting vampires in play is consistent.
Text for putting allies in play is consistent.
Text for putting minions in play is consistent as far as it can be.
Blooded Sand
> s.schei...@kabsi.at wrote:
> > By the way, isn´t the "must hunt this turn" clause on Embrace actually
> > redundant? Since it doesn´t have the "can´t act this turn" clause of
> > e.g. Third Tradition, there´s nothing to prevent the new vamp from
> > acting, since there´s no rule preventing a vamp from acting on the
> > same turn they come into play (apart from the fact that they *usually*
> > enter play in the Influence phase).
> > And since it´s an empty Vamp capable of acting, it already must hunt
> > without the card telling it to.
>
> Unless the vampire gets some blood (e.g., from Heidelberg Castle).
> But yes, the text is mostly reminder text.
Clarification: Does this mean that an Embrace, that gains blood, after
it is created, before it has to hunt, via the Coven, Heidelberg, or
any other similar means is free to take a different, non-mandatory
action that turn?
Blooded Sand
To clarify my query. Is the must hunt text on Embrace overriding card
text, or reminder text?
LSJ
It is overriding text. He must hunt.
Blooded Sand
Bah humbug...
:)
s.sch...@kabsi.at
Since we´re on the subject: Is there even a window to activate Coven
etc. before the Embrace (or any Vamp that becomes empty and untapped
during the Minion phase) must hunt? I ask because "hunt-prevention-
measures" are usually taken in the master phase, I don´t think I have
had this come up before.
LSJ
> Since we´re on the subject: Is there even a window to activate Coven
> etc. before the Embrace (or any Vamp that becomes empty and untapped
> during the Minion phase) must hunt? I ask because "hunt-prevention-
> measures" are usually taken in the master phase, I don´t think I have
> had this come up before.
Yes. There is time between actions. This time is what allows Heidelberg Castle
to be used between actions.
brandons...@yahoo.com
Pentex(TM) Subversion
Type: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique master.
Put this card on any ready minion. The minion with this card cannot
take actions and cannot block actions. This card may be burned by any
other minion as a (D) action.
Turn 1: Anarch Convert Recruits Cry Wolf
Turn 2: Pentex Subversion your own Cry Wolf (so that it may not act)
and have Anarch Convert create the abomination!
Didn't draw into Pentex Subersion the first time around? No problem!
Burn your Underbridge Stray during an action directed at you and Cry
Wolf Untaps! It's such a good combo, how can you NOT play it?
Brandon