Bloodlines 2!!!
Dragos Brazil
a comment about something I think since Bloodlines expansion: when is
the "Bloodlines 2" gonna be released?
Surely not the strongest, but for sure one of the most fun IMO!! And
not fully explored! At least a couple of vampires for each BL could be
released in Gehenna...I don't believe that could affect game balance
that much, as all of the BL have ther *STRONG* limitations. By the
way, most of the BL and Assamite Clan are the only ones that
*actually* have Clan hosers against them...the other Clan hosers are
barely used.
Comments?
Dragos
pallando
reprinted (along with the sabbat war boosters).
afaik there won't be a bloodlines 2 set or even a single new bloodlines
card. the source of this information: a friend of mine talked to LSJ at the
EC and quoted him to have said something along the lines of, "as long as i
remain designer of v:tes there won't be single new bloodlines card".
personally i find this very sad because blodlines is definitely my favorite
of the sets WW has done. i guess it is even my favorite overall. i have a
feeling that i am not completely alone with this opinion. therefore i'd like
to know what the reason for this drastic opinion is. i can understand why we
won't see any more scarce vampires but the odd bloodlines vampire here or
there won't hurt.
maybe more bloodlines decks should win the storyline tournaments...
regards
pallando(at)gmx(dot)at
LSJ
> afaik there won't be a bloodlines 2 set or even a single new bloodlines
> card. the source of this information: a friend of mine talked to LSJ at the
> EC and quoted him to have said something along the lines of, "as long as i
> remain designer of v:tes there won't be single new bloodlines card".
FYI: I have said no such thing.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Stefan Ferenci
you say basically the same thing
something like "no new bloodline vamps as long as i am game designer"
stefan
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3FA7EB55...@white-wolf.com...
LSJ
> well i am not said friend ( i am not even a friend of pallando) but i heart
> you say basically the same thing
> something like "no new bloodline vamps as long as i am game designer"
Lost in translation, then.
I have not said such a thing in earnest.
At least not sober. :-)
Stefan Ferenci
stefan
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3FA80AD1...@white-wolf.com...
Mike Nudd
> I have not said such a thing in earnest.
> At least not sober. :-)
Man it was hard enough trying to draw any statements from you whilst you
*weren't* sober... :)
Regards,
Mike
Aramis
> way, most of the BL and Assamite Clan are the only ones that
> *actually* have Clan hosers against them...
I still don't get why Assamites have their clan flaw built-in and no
other clan does. LSJ has said that the Blood Curse isn't a flaw worth
even a fraction of a point in vampire construction. So why have it in
the first place? Just for flavor??? Why didn't any other clan get
their flaw written on every vampire? You can say it would be too easy
for Assamites to eat people, but Tajdid is out there and NO ONE uses
it... so why?
Janne Hägglund
> I still don't get why Assamites have their clan flaw built-in and no
> other clan does.
Your point is good, valid and relevant. But...
Who'd dare to play Parmenides if he wasn't blood cursed?
"Hehheh, so Parmenides is mine for one turn. I'll use him to diabl..
D'OH!" :-)
--
hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid,
iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.
John Flournoy
I find this whole paragraph highly amusing considering the current
parallel discussion about how the Baali are so hosed because of
_their_ printed-on-every-vamp clan flaw, being Infernal.
-John Flournoy
Wes
"John Flournoy" <flou...@rcn.com> wrote
> >
> > I still don't get why Assamites have their clan flaw built-in and no
> > other clan does. LSJ has said that the Blood Curse isn't a flaw
worth
> > even a fraction of a point in vampire construction. So why have it
in
> > the first place? Just for flavor??? Why didn't any other clan get
> > their flaw written on every vampire? You can say it would be too
easy
> > for Assamites to eat people, but Tajdid is out there and NO ONE uses
> > it... so why?
>
> I find this whole paragraph highly amusing considering the current
> parallel discussion about how the Baali are so hosed because of
> _their_ printed-on-every-vamp clan flaw, being Infernal.
Ahrimanes and Blood Brothers are sterile. This is due to their clan
flaw.
It would have been an interesting design decision however.
--Ventrue hunt at 0 stealth
--Brujah cannot press to end
--Toreador cannot block vampires with superior PRE
--Tremere cannot block older Tremere
--Lasombra are not a valid target of Incriminating Videotape :)
Cheers,
WES
The Fanboy
Not an accurate representation of the feeding restriction. Most
Ventrue (in the RPG) have their vitae-source preference living in
their haven, where it would nigh-impossible to block the action in
VTES terms.
> --Brujah cannot press to end
Even worse of a representation. Brujah tend to frenzy, but they don't
do it everytime they fight. Not even close.
> --Toreador cannot block vampires with superior PRE
This one's just stupid. PRE has nothing to do with beauty. At most,
PRE is an aura of power and the ability to sway emotions. Toreador
are captivated by beauty itself, not a vampiric discipline.
> --Tremere cannot block older Tremere
That's not too bad, but age has nothing to do with rank within the
clan. An Elder who never impresses the clan leadership will still be
a lower rung than a neonate overachiever, and thus, the neonate will
have considerably more power.
> --Lasombra are not a valid target of Incriminating Videotape :)
Wank. =)
The main reason flaws didn't appear on the vamps -- it didn't occur to
the design team until much later. And the Assamite flaw is very easy
to put into a text box without creating clutter. Other clans don't
have it so easy/hard.
They still, apparently, haven't figured out how to put the Ravnos
disadvantage onto a card.
Fanboy
> Cheers,
> WES
the_capuchin
> > way, most of the BL and Assamite Clan are the only ones that
> > *actually* have Clan hosers against them...
>
> I still don't get why Assamites have their clan flaw built-in and no
> other clan does. LSJ has said that the Blood Curse isn't a flaw worth
> even a fraction of a point in vampire construction. So why have it in
> the first place? Just for flavor?
I answer this with a simple question: Why not?
This is another thing I like very much in this game; the background is
used for more than simple inspiration for cards artwork.
If I would complain about something in actual Assamite options, is the
heavy blood cost. That bothers me more than the flaw. Every player who
knows what the Assamites can do often hurry to burn the Path of Blood
because of this.
Why didn't any other clan get
> their flaw written on every vampire? You can say it would be too easy
> for Assamites to eat people, but Tajdid is out there and NO ONE uses
> it... so why?
? No one? Funny that you wrote this when I saw TWO Tajdids being
played last Friday...
If you do not use it, please send yours to me! ;-)
[ importing a box of Final Night boosters and expecting to get at
least one Tajdid ]
Wes
"The Fanboy" <texas...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > --Ventrue hunt at 0 stealth
>
> Not an accurate representation of the feeding restriction. Most
> Ventrue (in the RPG) have their vitae-source preference living in
> their haven, where it would nigh-impossible to block the action in
> VTES terms.
They would still have access to cards like Restoration or, since we are
talking theoretically, special cards that give them blood from sources
other than hunting as an action.
> > --Brujah cannot press to end
>
> Even worse of a representation. Brujah tend to frenzy, but they don't
> do it everytime they fight. Not even close.
I know... just an idea. Give me a better one. Brujah Frenzy, as it
exists, just doesn't cut it.
> > --Toreador cannot block vampires with superior PRE
>
> This one's just stupid. PRE has nothing to do with beauty. At most,
> PRE is an aura of power and the ability to sway emotions. Toreador
> are captivated by beauty itself, not a vampiric discipline.
PRE will make someone appear beautiful, regardless of their actual
beauty. Got a better one?
"Toreador cannot block vampires with artwork by Christopher Shy".
> > --Tremere cannot block older Tremere
>
> That's not too bad, but age has nothing to do with rank within the
> clan. An Elder who never impresses the clan leadership will still be
> a lower rung than a neonate overachiever, and thus, the neonate will
> have considerably more power.
Age is the easiest way to do it. Doing it by title would make less sense
to me.
> > --Lasombra are not a valid target of Incriminating Videotape :)
>
> Wank. =)
I thought it was funny.
> The main reason flaws didn't appear on the vamps -- it didn't occur to
> the design team until much later. And the Assamite flaw is very easy
> to put into a text box without creating clutter. Other clans don't
> have it so easy/hard.
>
> They still, apparently, haven't figured out how to put the Ravnos
> disadvantage onto a card.
I actually thought of that one but couldn't come up with a good one.
Tends to change depending on which Ravnos you are talking about also.
Ah well, just having some fun here.
Cheers,
WES
LSJ
> does that mean we will eventually see some new bloodline vamps.
No. It means that I have not said that there will not be any.
Dragos Brazil
cards in terms of game balance. Even with a few more vamps and cards,
almost none of them would be overpowered, and as long as I've seen on
the net and with all the people I've talked to, everyone agrees that
BL is part of the *funniest* gameplay from VTES...
Bloodlines 2: yes, please.
Dragos
David Cherryholmes
<h...@iki.fi.remove.these.to.reply.invalid> (Janne Hägglund) wrote:
> "Hehheh, so Parmenides is mine for one turn. I'll use him to diabl..
>D'OH!" :-)
Man, that joke never gets old!
David Cherryholmes
VEKN Prince of Durham, NC
Derek Ray
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about:
>Stefan Ferenci wrote:
>> does that mean we will eventually see some new bloodline vamps.
>
>No. It means that I have not said that there will not be any.
if (!(said->vamps) && !(be->vamps) && !(said->vamps || be->vamps)) {
brain->kaboom;
}
-- Derek
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
David Cherryholmes
wrote:
>I answer this with a simple question: Why not?
Because the Assamites are about pretty much nothing but combat; their
flaw stands directly in the way of one of the few things you can do
with them. It would be like the aforementioned Ahrimanes being
sterile, and then having the bulk of Spiritus cards relate to
embracing. OK, not that bad, but you get the idea.
>This is another thing I like very much in this game; the background is
>used for more than simple inspiration for cards artwork.
Then I want some completely bad-ass Thaumaturgy actions only useable
by Assamites with thaumaturgy. They need a card like ToV that acts as
a container, gaining counters for every blood of damage done to
opponent. Then they burn those counters to pay for the ridiculuously
expensive Thau actions mentioned above. If you went that way and gave
the actions a cost of, oh, FIVE, you wouldn't need a clan restriction
as a matter of practicality. Collecting blood is something Assamites
routinely do, so it could even be a built in 0-point ability to
balance their, ahem, zero point flaw.
>If I would complain about something in actual Assamite options, is the
>heavy blood cost. That bothers me more than the flaw. Every player who
>knows what the Assamites can do often hurry to burn the Path of Blood
>because of this.
Quietus does damage in combat. ToV converts that back into blood.
They don't have a blood management problem. The Ravnos, *they* have a
blood management problem.
>? No one? Funny that you wrote this when I saw TWO Tajdids being
>played last Friday...
>If you do not use it, please send yours to me! ;-)
Cool, but he's still correct in a general sense.
Metropolis
"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message
news:27bjqv4am84femdd7...@4ax.com...
David Cherryholmes
> I love Sacrificial Lamb and Assamites, am I alone?
If you happen to be playing the teeny, tiny, minority of Good
Assamites Who Have Obfuscate, then yes it is a great card.
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
Xian
[snip good analysis of clanstuff]
> They still, apparently, haven't figured out how to put the Ravnos
> disadvantage onto a card.
Au contraire. I believe they have it in a number of cards.
Far Fatuus, Ignis Fatuus, Sleight of Hand, Trick of Danya.
;)
Xian
Timlagor
> They still, apparently, haven't figured out how to put the Ravnos
> disadvantage onto a card.
What's the Ravnos disadvantage?
The Fanboy
> talking theoretically, special cards that give them blood from sources
> other than hunting as an action.
That doesn't even begin to approach the thematic issue, which is
(apparently) what people are trying to do here.
> I know... just an idea. Give me a better one. Brujah Frenzy, as it
> exists, just doesn't cut it.
How about "let's not propose errate to several hundred cards just
because someone got their panties in a wad over the Blood Curse."
Makes sense to me.
> PRE will make someone appear beautiful, regardless of their actual
> beauty. Got a better one?
Nope. Awe and Majesty create an aura. How that aura is percieved is
based largely on how you are already percieved. A Nos showing his
true visage who activates Majesty is so friggin' creepy you don't
wanna fuck with him. He does not appear beautiful. That's the realm
of Obfuscate and Chimestry.
Even the powers that directly manipulate emotion -- Entrancement and
Love -- don't make someone appear beautiful. Love is a temporary
blood bond -- looks are irrelevant. Entrancement subtly manipulates
someone into LIKING you. That's it.
> Age is the easiest way to do it. Doing it by title would make less sense
> to me.
Given how few Tremere have clan titles, you're right. Sect titles are
irrelevant to the Pyramid. In fact, in most cities, their Primogen
are usually the most expendable members of the clan in the area.
"May not attempt to block Tremere with more levels of Thaumaturgy"
comes closest.
> I actually thought of that one but couldn't come up with a good one.
> Tends to change depending on which Ravnos you are talking about also.
Yup. Some crimes of high-profile Ravnos in the Camarilla LARP:
Jaywalking
Regicide
IDentity Theft
Theft of Secrets
Good luck combining all of those into one card.
Fanboy "Fond of Regicide"
salem
<david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled:
>On 05 Nov 2003 03:33:20 +0200,
><h...@iki.fi.remove.these.to.reply.invalid> (Janne Hägglund) wrote:
>
>> "Hehheh, so Parmenides is mine for one turn. I'll use him to diabl..
>>D'OH!" :-)
>
>Man, that joke never gets old!
Last night my prey Tempted Parnassus, stole him...and tried to
diablerise someone. I just said 'no', and he was all like 'huh?', and
i just tapped his text box a lot until he went 'damn!'. :)
Speaking of which:
LSJ: If i have just put a Rutor's Hand on my vampire, and in my prey's
turn he takes control of it with Temptation, does it get the
additional minion phase untap? (It doesn't kick in until "my next
turn", which when he steals it becomes HIS next turn, which he hasn't
had...)
And presumably if the Rutor's Hand _is_ 'active', and he steals the
vampire with Temptation, he gets the additional minion phase untap?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
berni...@attbi.comholdlespam
wrote:
Well, I have approx. 130+ fully designed cards that could be used in a
bloodlines expansion if White Wolf is interested in seeing what I have
completed.
I'm not holding my breath however :-)
BernieTime
Lansing, Michigan
berni...@comcast.netholdlespam
>Well, I have approx. 130+ fully designed cards that could be used in a
>bloodlines expansion if White Wolf is interested in seeing what I have
>completed.
>
>I'm not holding my breath however :-)
>
>
>
>BernieTime
>Lansing, Michigan
Testing, Testing..
My e-mail address has changed, just checking to see if it's now posting
properly in my reply field.
BernieTime
Lansing, Michigan
Aramis
> > other clan does. LSJ has said that the Blood Curse isn't a flaw worth
> > even a fraction of a point in vampire construction. So why have it in
> > the first place? Just for flavor?
>
> I answer this with a simple question: Why not?
> This is another thing I like very much in this game; the background is
> used for more than simple inspiration for cards artwork.
I too appreciate the RPG background as inspiration for VTES cards, but
I think arbitrarily imposing a penalty on one clan when no other clan
suffers from their flaw is unfair. If the flaw was costed into the
construction of Assamites, or reflected in more effective Assamite
cards (masters, equipment, QUI cards, etc) I wouldn't have a problem,
but as it stands today, that is not the case. For example, the Baali
are clearly costed differently to reflect their Infernal trait. Now
Blood Cursed is not nearly as debilitating as Infernal, but for a
combat clan not to be able to diablerize is a big problem.
> If I would complain about something in actual Assamite options, is the
> heavy blood cost. That bothers me more than the flaw. Every player who
> knows what the Assamites can do often hurry to burn the Path of Blood
> because of this.
David already responded to this point and I largely agree with what he
said. The blood costs of QUI cards are not nearly as problematic as
the Blood Curse IMO.
> Why didn't any other clan get
> > their flaw written on every vampire? You can say it would be too easy
> > for Assamites to eat people, but Tajdid is out there and NO ONE uses
> > it... so why?
>
> ? No one? Funny that you wrote this when I saw TWO Tajdids being
> played last Friday...
> If you do not use it, please send yours to me! ;-)
Have your buddy post his deck to the Path of Blood for comments. I'm
willing to bet we could find some better masters than that piece of
junk. Tajdid is a waste of a master phase action, not to mention a
card slot. Maybe if it was a Trifle, but I doubt we'll ever see that
change. As for giving mine away... sure, just send a SASE and I'll
get right on it. ;)
Aramis
> > talking theoretically, special cards that give them blood from sources
> > other than hunting as an action.
>
> That doesn't even begin to approach the thematic issue, which is
> (apparently) what people are trying to do here.
Not me. I want balance. I appreciate the theme, but sacrificing
playability and balance for thematic reasons is a mistake.
> > I know... just an idea. Give me a better one. Brujah Frenzy, as it
> > exists, just doesn't cut it.
>
> How about "let's not propose errate to several hundred cards just
> because someone got their panties in a wad over the Blood Curse."
>
> Makes sense to me.
How does getting rid of the Blood Curse require errata to "several
hundred cards"?
I just want a reason. Tell me why there is Tajdid instead of a Master
card that says "Assamites may not commit diablerie" like all the other
clans. As far as I know, there is no reason for this difference in
clan flaws...
The Fanboy
Ravnos are disposed towards crime. Each Ravnos is different, hence
why it's difficult to condense it into a card. The crime varies based
on the environment the Ravnos grew up in, and the circumstances around
the embrace. It can be something as "mundane" as robbing banks or
picking pockets, to something abstract like identity theft. Older
Ravnos may have "crimes of choice" such as regicide (murder of kings,
my personal fave) or crimes such as "lust," "avarice," or any other
Deadly Sin.
Fanboy
RavATwoFaces
> Well, I have approx. 130+ fully designed cards that could be used in a
> bloodlines expansion if White Wolf is interested in seeing what I have
> completed.
>
> I'm not holding my breath however :-)
>
>
>
> BernieTime
> Lansing, Michigan
Also in Torino we are using and making new cards for "fun-games"...
and many palyers who like the Rpg have designed new
bloodline-discipline cards...
So why don't planning a Bloodlines2 set made with the suggestion of
the players? I know that this thing will need a good playtesting but
it can be done and the WW will have a lot of work done without a big
effort (I think that many players will be glad to test new home made
cards to create a new expansion and many of them will be also glad to
see their art-work on the cards without asking money).
LSJ
> LSJ: If i have just put a Rutor's Hand on my vampire, and in my prey's
> turn he takes control of it with Temptation, does it get the
> additional minion phase untap? (It doesn't kick in until "my next
> turn", which when he steals it becomes HIS next turn, which he hasn't
> had...)
No, it is not active.
It isn't active until "your next turn".
Since it isn't active when stolen and since the "you" transfers to
the new controller, it remains inert pending its controller's next
turn.
It will therefore remain inert until its controller begins a turn with
it.
(I feel positive I've answered this before, but I can find no trace
of it on Google or on VTES-L. If anyone has a handle on a previous answer
of mine or any other net.rep to this question, please let me know.)
> And presumably if the Rutor's Hand _is_ 'active', and he steals the
> vampire with Temptation, he gets the additional minion phase untap?
If it's active, it's active, yes.
the_capuchin
> > ? No one? Funny that you wrote this when I saw TWO Tajdids being
> > played last Friday...
> > If you do not use it, please send yours to me! ;-)
>
> Have your buddy post his deck to the Path of Blood for comments. I'm
> willing to bet we could find some better masters than that piece of
> junk. Tajdid is a waste of a master phase action, not to mention a
> card slot. Maybe if it was a Trifle, but I doubt we'll ever see that
> change. As for giving mine away... sure, just send a SASE and I'll
> get right on it. ;)
Hey, I'm talking seriously ;) Don't say it or I'll send a SASE as soon
as possible. I'm a believer.
Maybe using some Tajdids will show me how it is a waste. I don't claim
to be the utmost experienced Assamite player, it just seems to me that
being able to diablerize via Tajdid is good - and fun, I suppose.
I'll ask the guy to send me the deck.
Dragos Brazil
Hey ano of you from WW, can't you see the oportunity to make money
with this? Everybody is begging for a second Bloodlines expansion (or
at least a few cards for it!).
Dragos
David Cherryholmes
> Maybe using some Tajdids will show me how it is a waste. I don't claim
> to be the utmost experienced Assamite player, it just seems to me that
> being able to diablerize via Tajdid is good - and fun, I suppose.
> I'll ask the guy to send me the deck.
I think the source of incredulity is that you could somehow survive the
ensuing bloodhunt. Unless your Assamites are disposable (which they tend
not to be) it becomes a counterproductive strategy.
Unless you're eating Arika. That's always productive. ;)
berni...@comcast.netholdlespam
(RavATwoFaces) wrote:
Well I can definitely understand why companies don't actively solicit
card ideas from fans as the majority (like 70%+) of the submittals are
either unbalanced or infeasible.
It would be cool if WW did a little something like WotC does called "You
Make the Card" where the community gets to vote on creation of a card
for an upcoming set.
The Lasombra has archived a ton of card ideas that had been posted here
on the NG that you can sift through if you like.
Like yourself, I think another Bloodlines expansion would do quite well.
There is a slight problem with adding "Filler" Vamps for the first set
as that would mean you would most likely only have 1-3 vamps to
compliment previous bloodlines. There are some ways to avert this from
being an issue, but would need some care in the design process to ensure
that a Bloodlines 2 set would still be viable for Limited format play.
BernieTime
Lansing, Michigan
Timlagor
> Regicide
> IDentity Theft
> Theft of Secrets
I'd like to see them on seperate Cards. I suppose The Treatment could
pass for Regicide ..maybe
Identity Theft could be REALLY cool.
Halcyan 2
>with this? Everybody is begging for a second Bloodlines expansion (or
>at least a few cards for it!).
I'm not begging for one...
Halcyan 2
Metropolis
Chris Arthur
> And presumably if the Rutor's Hand _is_ 'active', and he steals the
> vampire with Temptation, he gets the additional minion phase untap?
>
Still miffed about being ousted by your own Etrius? ;)
Chris.
The Fanboy
> pass for Regicide ..maybe
"Goodnight Sweet Prince" would come closer. Except it doesn't.
The Treatment is actually the Clan's biggest strength under 2nd
Edition rules. If a Prince is particularly antagonistic towards
Ravnos, the entire clan descends upon the city and violates the
Masquerade in every possible way. Usually, the threat of Treatment
alone is enough to provoke an attempted Praxis Siezure by one of the
Primogen, before the Week came along. The Week ruined that.
Let's have a treatment!
Okay!
Who all will be there?
*crickets chirp*
Um...yeah. Let's go have a beer.
Fanboy
salem
scrawled:
>>
>> And presumably if the Rutor's Hand _is_ 'active', and he steals the
>> vampire with Temptation, he gets the additional minion phase untap?
>>
>
>Still miffed about being ousted by your own Etrius? ;)
well, yes, but this question stemmed from a game last night. :)
My worst tournament disasters have ALL been the result of Temptation.
All of them. I am thinking of just always playing mega-intercept wall
decks with Children of Osiris in it, and victory points be damned, as
long as the setites get killed.
I'm thinking of it, but i still do wanna win. So, how to win _and_ be
immune to Setite crap? hmmm...lots of DI i guess....
The Lasombra
wrote:
>The Lasombra has archived a ton of card ideas that had been posted here
>on the NG that you can sift through if you like.
shawn stanley
wrote:
>On 6 Nov 2003 14:37:59 -0800, chr...@comcen.com.au (Chris Arthur)
>scrawled:
>
>>>
>>> And presumably if the Rutor's Hand _is_ 'active', and he steals the
>>> vampire with Temptation, he gets the additional minion phase untap?
>>>
>>
>>Still miffed about being ousted by your own Etrius? ;)
>
>well, yes, but this question stemmed from a game last night. :)
>
>My worst tournament disasters have ALL been the result of Temptation.
>All of them. I am thinking of just always playing mega-intercept wall
>decks with Children of Osiris in it, and victory points be damned, as
>long as the setites get killed.
>I'm thinking of it, but i still do wanna win.
so you're never going to play Gargoyles again then?
salem
<sta...@hotmail.com> scrawled:
>On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:59:56 +1100, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 6 Nov 2003 14:37:59 -0800, chr...@comcen.com.au (Chris Arthur)
>>scrawled:
>>
>>>>
>>>> And presumably if the Rutor's Hand _is_ 'active', and he steals the
>>>> vampire with Temptation, he gets the additional minion phase untap?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Still miffed about being ousted by your own Etrius? ;)
>>
>>well, yes, but this question stemmed from a game last night. :)
>>
>>My worst tournament disasters have ALL been the result of Temptation.
>>All of them. I am thinking of just always playing mega-intercept wall
>>decks with Children of Osiris in it, and victory points be damned, as
>>long as the setites get killed.
>>I'm thinking of it, but i still do wanna win.
>
>so you're never going to play Gargoyles again then?
that was low. :P
Looks like it's time to pull the deck out and tweak it until it's the
best it can be, then. :)
RavATwoFaces
> Well I can definitely understand why companies don't actively solicit
> card ideas from fans as the majority (like 70%+) of the submittals are
> either unbalanced or infeasible.
>
> It would be cool if WW did a little something like WotC does called "You
> Make the Card" where the community gets to vote on creation of a card
> for an upcoming set.
So we NEED a good playtesting. WW make playtests of the cards before
letting them out in true expansions.
I've partecipated only in 1 playtest (and the playtest was BLOODLINE)
and many cards were arranged before printing them.
I think that VTES players know that if they want to make a card, that
card needs to be balanced or it will not be published because it's too
powerful.
SO don't think that all cards are as the one published on Damnans site
(I like very much the site!).
>
> Like yourself, I think another Bloodlines expansion would do quite well.
>
We have to ask for a WW referendum for a new bloodline expansion!
On the italian forum near 70% of players wants new bloodline cards...
> BernieTime
> Lansing, Michigan
the_capuchin
> and many palyers who like the Rpg have designed new
> bloodline-discipline cards...
> So why don't planning a Bloodlines2 set made with the suggestion of
> the players? I know that this thing will need a good playtesting but
> it can be done and the WW will have a lot of work done without a big
> effort (I think that many players will be glad to test new home made
> cards to create a new expansion and many of them will be also glad to
> see their art-work on the cards without asking money).
And if it does work, WW could use the playtest system they're trying
now with Exalted CCG. Not sure if they would risk this. I can safely
say that most players I know would never be satisfied with
laserjet-printed copy of cards soon to be released. We like quality
;-), so there's nothing to fear.
the_capuchin
Nor me. But he has a point. If I were the owner of the game, I'd
strongly consider a new Bloodlines-related expansion after Gehenna.
Give people what they want.
the_capuchin
>
> We have to ask for a WW referendum for a new bloodline expansion!
> On the italian forum near 70% of players wants new bloodline cards...
>
> > BernieTime
> > Lansing, Michigan
So let's do a little "opinion mapping".
General question:
- What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
Gehenna)?
a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects
etc.
e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
stand-alone system, as the player chooses
g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
support
i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
Any more options? This is all that comes to mind now, with viable and
probably-impossible-to-be-made ideas...
Timlagor
j) no new cards at all -we have all we need.
(not a popular option I'm sure)
k) a selected reprint of popular cards in booster-only format.
I'd go for k then e (independents). Then maybe b and g -or h ;)
kushiel
Nor am I.
The bloodlines are *supposed* to be few in number, folks. There just aren't
that many of them in the world. This has been accurately portrayed in the
CCG, and I'm very glad for that. I'd be very disappointed to see the bloodlines
suddenly swell in numbers to equal the Sabbat, or worse, Camarilla.
And, in the case of every discipline I bothered to look up, White Wolf has
already printed cards that cover every level of that power. Hence, there just
aren't any more bloodline-specific discipline powers to be had, with the
possible exception of a few very high level powers (6 and up) custom-made by
specific vampires.
So, given that there aren't any more vampires to be printed (crypt), and no
more powers to be printed (library), what the hell would the Bloodlines 2
set have?
Kushiel
David Cherryholmes
> - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
> Gehenna)?
j) No more expansions. Give it a break for a little while.
Curevei
>Gehenna)?
Expansions with new disciplines and new clans, first. Help for anything weak.
Like to see some cards get reprinted. Can't remember, but if there's African
Lasombra with Obten, then Shadow Step would make sense. Doesn't appear that
Nephandus got reprinted, would have thought that was the obviously superior
choice to Succubus.
Colin Goodman
>Gehenna)?
>
>a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
I'd like to see reprints of cards from the Sabbat set. I think a lot of the
newer players (myself included) are missing a lot of these.
>
>b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
>Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and of the
Ebony Kingdom etc.)
I wouldn't want to see historical sets but I would like to see something for
KoEB but I would only want to see KotE as allies not as a full expansion.
>
>c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
Always.
>d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
>parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects etc.
Nah. That would be a bad idea. Too unbalancing and against the feel/nature of
the game.
>e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
Always.
>f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
>Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
>stand-alone system, as the player chooses
If KotE is a stand alone game, fine. I really don't want to see an expansion
for VTES based on this.
>g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
Aye. Greatly. The bloodlines may be rarer than clans but they shouldn't be
albut ignored in future sets.
>h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing support
Aye.
>i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
Thats works for me.
As a personal opinion, I still hold that I would like a set based on the
various city by night books, giving us more of the named characters from those
books (Chicago, Neo Orleans, LA and the others).
-------------------------
Cambridge by Night.
http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html
Pepijn
We don't know that one. Reprints would be primarily starter only, and
those will not be revealed on the checklist as far as I know.
For all we know all !tremere and there support cards might be
reprinted (allthough unlikely).
salem
scrawled:
>As a personal opinion, I still hold that I would like a set based on the
>various city by night books, giving us more of the named characters from those
>books (Chicago, Neo Orleans, LA and the others).
I like this one too.
also, more good stuff for Primogen. Will of the Council is just a
crappy Praxis Seizure.
Halcyan 2
>> Halcyan 2
>
>Nor me. But he has a point. If I were the owner of the game, I'd
>strongly consider a new Bloodlines-related expansion after Gehenna.
>Give people what they want.
Give people what they want...but at the expense of ruining the game altogether
on balance issues? No thanks but personally I think White Wolf should pass...
Halcyan 2
legbiter
> > > Like yourself, I think another Bloodlines expansion would do quite well.
> >
> > We have to ask for a WW referendum for a new bloodline expansion!
> > On the italian forum near 70% of players wants new bloodline cards...
> >
> > > BernieTime
> > > Lansing, Michigan
>
> So let's do a little "opinion mapping".
> General question:
>
> - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
> Gehenna)?
>
> a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
No, but see below
>
> b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
> Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
> of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
Yes
>
> c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
No, but see below
>
> d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
> parameters: vampires with capacity above 11,
No.
new disciplines/effects
> etc.
Yes
>
> e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
No, but see below
>
> f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> stand-alone system, as the player chooses
Yes
>
> g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
No, but see below
>
> h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
> clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
> support
Yes, perhaps in the form of clones of continent-winning/final-reaching
tournament decks. This would flood the market with power cards and
competitive decks, to the long-term benefit of the game.
>
> i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
No
>
> Any more options? This is all that comes to mind now, with viable and
> probably-impossible-to-be-made ideas...
A post-Gehenna set focussed on whatever gets left over from the World
of Darkness. C'mon, there's GOING to be SOMETHING!!!!!
A simplified version pointed at the role-players, OR
Theme-decks based on the "X by night" books, employing cards that
refer to those locations, and new vampires from the books [+ some old
ones].
HD
> >
> > We have to ask for a WW referendum for a new bloodline expansion!
> > On the italian forum near 70% of players wants new bloodline cards...
> >
> > > BernieTime
> > > Lansing, Michigan
>
>
> - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
> Gehenna)?
Expansions that fill in the "gaps" for Anarchs, Bloodlines, etc...
Making the cards that the players really want could go a long way
towards increasing sales and making the game more popular. :o)
1) A few more vampires for the "clans" in Bloodlines. 5, 6 & 7 caps
2) More cards using the Bloodlines skills.
3) Vampires that are already Anarchs (ex. an advanced Jimmy Dunn)
4) More cards for the Anarchs
5) Anything that flushes out the benefits of Anarchs & Bloodlines
Specifically:
- An 8 cap !Salubri with all their skills at superior
- A 5 cap !Salubri with VAL/for/aus
- A 7 cap Kiyasid with all their skills at superior
- Vampires that are Barons (and Anarchs)
- More "outferior" cards (like in Bloodlines)
- Cards that have an inferior dicipline, superior dicipline, and a
superior of two or three diciplines (ex. dom, DOM, DOM/PRE)
and so on...
>
> a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
- new cards: yes reprints: which ones?
>
> b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
> Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
> of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
- if it is done well... but only after other aspects of the game
have been "fixed", improved, or explored further.
>
> c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
- new cards - yes ...why not? reprints: is that necessary?
>
> d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
> parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects
> etc.
- Seems problematic. Maybe later... much later... (but some of
this may happen in Gehenna anyway)
>
> e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
- new cards: definitely reprints: only if it's really necessary
>
> f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> stand-alone system, as the player chooses
- I wouldn't buy it. I will play such cards if they are introduced to
VTES, but I'm not interested in any separate spin off CCGs from VTES.
(But maybe it would be good marketing. Who knows?!?)
>
> g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
- new cards: definitely reprints: why? Aren't they being reprinted
now?
>
> h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
> clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
> support
- This sounds good, but Gehenna may throw things pretty out of
whack... In that case, we may need a few expansions just to "fix" the
issues that appear in that expansion.
>
> i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
- Definitely!! As long as they are reprinting Bloodlines, this is a
great idea. But why put so many cards that are extremely popular in
one single expansion? It might be more profitable for WW to sprinkle
in a few Bloodlines vampires and cards into all of the future
expansions...
>
> Any more options? This is all that comes to mind now, with viable and
> probably-impossible-to-be-made ideas...
- There are always going to be more options as long as the guys at
White Wolf keep developing new concepts. I realize that many people
think the game has almost reached or exceeded it's limits, but it
seems that there are many areas that have not been fully explored yet.
(IMHO)
- Clans within a clan... special cards for powerful "sub-groups"
- Stand alone games that are also fully compatible with VTES
(Kindred of the East, Dark Ages, etc...)
- Expansions based around Hunters, Wearwolves, and other sideline
characters
- Extremely powerful Group 9 vampires... Gehenna??
(group 8, group 7, whatever)
And so on...
Personally, I think the folks at White Wolf have a few tricks up their
sleeves that they are not talking about. They will probably come up
with some great ideas and implement them in a way that makes "most" of
the player base happy. I'm in a "wait and see" mode... :o)
Cheers,
Howard
PS Why wait until after the Gehenna expansion for suggestions?? Why
not make suggestions for that expansion now? Just wondering...
HD
How about little "mini-expansions" that simply supplement other
expansions? (Anarchs, Bloodlines, etc.) Nothing major or mind
blowing, just a few new cards and new vampires based on current themes
and things well known from the World of Darknes...
That wouldn't be so bad, would it?
Cheers,
Howard
Colin Goodman
(wouldn't say no though) although I would like to see new members of those
lines dropped into future sets. A new Blood Brother circle would be nice, for
example.
pseudosoldier
<Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>the_capuchin expounded:
>> So let's do a little "opinion mapping".
>> General question:
>>
>> - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
>> Gehenna)?
>>
>> a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
>>
>> b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
>> Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
>> of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
>>
>> c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
>>
>> d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
>> parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects
>> etc.
>>
>> e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
>>
>> f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
>> Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
>> stand-alone system, as the player chooses
>>
>> g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
>>
>> h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
>> clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
>> support
>>
>> i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
>
>j) no new cards at all -we have all we need.
>(not a popular option I'm sure)
>
>k) a selected reprint of popular cards in booster-only format.
>
>
I'd go for "k", which has been suggested before. Let me put down my
comments again...
Magic the Gathering has done this sort of things for *years*, since
the time they could possibly do it at all. These are the "base sets,"
and they keep certain key staple cards in the rotation for tournaments
that WotC has set up. As such, they aren't exactly what is called for
here... but please note that they do sell pretty well even though
they are all reprint.
The Raw Deal CCG (the one pro-wrestling one that survived) has done
two reprint sets: Survivor Series and Survivor Series II. Each of
these were entirely reprint, but not entirely booster (starters had
exclusive cards that were previously exclusive in starters; SSII had
some previously exclusive starter cards in booster only). With SSII,
Comic Images scoured the internet for the top decks out there, and
compiled lists of all the cards showing up in these decks. They
created a database to see which cards showed up how often. They made
the list of cards to include in the set based on this database: IIRC,
the "top" 50 commons, uncommons, and rares, and the top "Superstar"
cards and their corresponding "Superstar specific" cards.
I think something along these lines is what WW should do with respect
to an all reprint series. Either go back to a previous set of
tournament winning decks (a large sample to ensure variety), or to
generate a new set of Storyline tournaments, perhaps, with the
understanding that the winning decks of all the tournaments would help
define the reprint set.
-- pseudosoldier
Curevei
>example.
I would think any new BB circles would do pretty much the same things as the
old. What's the draw, then?
Curevei
>that many of them in the world. This has been accurately portrayed in the
>CCG, and I'm very glad for that.
Thematics shouldn't get in the way of balance. I find the existence of the
scarcies annoying as I really dislike the scarce rule yet understand why it is
the way it is. I would have preferred that the space in the set devoted to
them was used to flesh out the other bloodlines.
>I'd be very disappointed to see the
>bloodlines
>suddenly swell in numbers to equal the Sabbat, or worse, Camarilla.
Likelihood of this happening = none.
>And, in the case of every discipline I bothered to look up, White Wolf has
>already printed cards that cover every level of that power. Hence, there just
>aren't any more bloodline-specific discipline powers to be had, with the
>possible exception of a few very high level powers (6 and up) custom-made by
>specific vampires.
While I also think this is a problem, there are plenty of cards in the game
that extrapolate from what disciplines do rather than equate to discipline
levels.
>So, given that there aren't any more vampires to be printed (crypt), and no
>more powers to be printed (library), what the hell would the Bloodlines 2
>set have?
Probably new bloodlines, so I don't know that a new Bloodlines set is precisely
what people want.
Five Sabbat bloodlines. Ahrimanes don't suck, but it wouldn't hurt to help
them and there's plenty of variation on the level of the discipline where they
take on some aspect of an animal. Would be nice if they worked better with
Gangrel/!Gangrel since that was sort of the point of Bloodlines - mixed decks -
and the point of Feral Spirit. Searching on ELDB, only 3 Gangrel have
Animalism and Presence, one can't be played with the other two. No !Gangrel
combine Ani and Pre. Blood Brothers don't really need anything in particular,
could use something to help them mix with others more. Harbingers can get help
by printing more For/Nec guys, preferably Sabbat ones though that seems not
hugely likely. Aus+Nec card would help ... Kiasyd don't need help so much as
Mytherceria could use a blood costing card (for Marconius) that distinguishes
it more from Obtenebration. More Nec/Obt vampires would be interesting of
course. !Salubri need a lot of help: couple vampires with disciplines, cards
that make Valeran a discipline.
Seven independent bloodlines. I don't see new stuff for the scarcies
specifically. What I mean is no new clan cards or cards in bloodline
disciplines. Nagaraja can get help from Aus+Nec stuff ... Salubri don't
really need help. Trujah need help, but they can get that from Potence
becoming more flexible and whatnot. Baali could use a redesign of their
vampires and the infernal rule; more Baali is like more scarcies - they compete
with each other. Daimoinon is good which is why anyone bothers now. Daughters
could use another Daughter, say (4) mel/PRE can't block allies, to help make
Choir and other all DoC decks better. While maybe WW has an interest in making
Choir better, I don't think it cares about making other all DoC decks better.
Gargoyles can get better with more cards like High Ground. Could probably use
some more vampires, especially !Trem slaves. Visceratika doesn't really suit
them, but more High Grounds makes this matter less. Samedi have an okay number
of vamps, what kills them is how unuseful Thanatosis is to them. Maybe a
discipline card that has "<than> +1 intercept" as a level with other, common
disciplines***. Wouldn't hurt to get more Samedi that crossover with others
better. Sabbat Samedi with FOR/NEC would help HoS.
I don't know how clear it was, but the point of going on and on was to bring
out that a lot of what could help existing bloodlines could be gotten from a
Sabbat oriented expansion. Why not print an !Gangrel with ANI/pre, ani/PRE, or
ANI/PRE? Why not print a card that has a Myth level, a Nec level, and an Obten
level? Why not print a couple of !Salubri? Sabbat Samedi that mixes well with
nonSamedi? !Trem slave Gargoyles?
*** Reverse the Bloodlines mechanic for some new cards. Have the card go
something like "<bloodline discipline inferior>; <discipline inferior>;
<discipline superior>".
salem
make all the new circle scantily clad hot chicks..?
Tobias
> the_capuchin wrote:
> > >
> > > We have to ask for a WW referendum for a new bloodline expansion!
> > > On the italian forum near 70% of players wants new bloodline cards...
> > >
> > > > BernieTime
> > > > Lansing, Michigan
> >
> > General question:
> >
> > - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
> > Gehenna)?
>
>
> Expansions that fill in the "gaps" for Anarchs, Bloodlines, etc...
Yes, but only provisionally. It's a little silly to start plugging
perceived gaps in sets that have percolated long enough yet. (Although
I was somewhat disappointed by the apparent power level of Anarch
cards as well, but that may yet change).
> Making the cards that the players really want could go a long way
> towards increasing sales and making the game more popular. :o)
Naturally.
> 1) A few more vampires for the "clans" in Bloodlines. 5, 6 & 7 caps
>
> 2) More cards using the Bloodlines skills.
>
> 3) Vampires that are already Anarchs (ex. an advanced Jimmy Dunn)
>
> 4) More cards for the Anarchs
>
> 5) Anything that flushes out the benefits of Anarchs & Bloodlines
>
> Specifically:
>
> - An 8 cap !Salubri with all their skills at superior
>
> - A 5 cap !Salubri with VAL/for/aus
>
> - A 7 cap Kiyasid with all their skills at superior
>
> - Vampires that are Barons (and Anarchs)
>
> - More "outferior" cards (like in Bloodlines)
>
> - Cards that have an inferior dicipline, superior dicipline, and a
> superior of two or three diciplines (ex. dom, DOM, DOM/PRE)
>
> and so on...
I am really against a whole new Bloodlines expansion with bountiful
vampires for every bloodline (or even new bloodlines). I am not
against a very small sprinkling of useful bloodlines vampires in new
sets.
My reasoning: Bloodlines are supposed to be rare. If every deck I face
incorporates so-called 'rare' vampires, they lose some of their value
to me. This is balanced, though, by the fact that some bloodlines
vamps are excellent (Le Dinh Tho, Nu, Howler), while some see very
little play. Most bloodlines could benefit, without too much trouble,
from 1 or 2 more vampires, if introduced gradually and with a feel for
balance.
I expect we'll discover that Anarchs may need a (slight) boost in the
future. One or 2 more pre-made barons/anarch would help establish a
somewhat more solid 'core' for them. Of course, we have very little
clues to what Gehenna will bring. It wouldn't be too surprising if the
Anarchs overplay their hand in the Gehenna event, thus become more
active (warranting more cards). Or, post-Gehenna, how 'likely' is it
there will be enough vampires to support such outdated sects as the
Camarilla and the Sabbat? Maybe all vampires from then on are more
likely to be Independant (No more Antediluvian!) or Anarch... who
knows.
> > a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
>
> - new cards: yes reprints: which ones?
All clans and decks will need to grow a little more in every
expansion, so as not to become stale. But I'd prefer a slow pace much
more than a fast one. (So, after Gehenna - no release for a year,
please?)
With the cards introduced in BH, I think all Sabbat-Lovers will be
plenty pleased for a time.
> > b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
> > Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
> > of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
That might be nice.
> > c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
>
> - new cards - yes ...why not? reprints: is that necessary?
Same as a)/Sabbat, generally.
> > d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
> > parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects
> > etc.
>
> - Seems problematic. Maybe later... much later... (but some of
> this may happen in Gehenna anyway)
Nah. Let's not up-end the game entirely. But a new post-Gehenna
(optional) mechanic reflecting the dramatic upheaval of those times is
very welcome, I think. Put it this way: all those high-caps
(Methuselah's, Antediluvians) will be entering a big gore-fest. So
afterward, the 'rules' of the game will be different - those few
surviving Methuselah's/Antediluvians will be the best of the best (or
the lucky), and have relatively few competitors, but also relatively
few vampiric pawns to control. So some optional mechanic in the
Influence/Master area is not so strange.
Of course, we could also see a new Embracing-Spree from those powerful
enough to emerge on top - if the world'd not been smothered by the
blanket of the Banal/Technocratic.
> > e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
Same as a) and c)
> > f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> > Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> > stand-alone system, as the player chooses
>
>
> - I wouldn't buy it. I will play such cards if they are introduced to
> VTES, but I'm not interested in any separate spin off CCGs from VTES.
> (But maybe it would be good marketing. Who knows?!?)
I wouldn't buy it either.
> > g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
>
> - new cards: definitely reprints: why? Aren't they being reprinted
> now?
Nope. Let bloodlines stay excusive.
> > h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
> > clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
> > support
>
> - This sounds good, but Gehenna may throw things pretty out of
> whack... In that case, we may need a few expansions just to "fix" the
> issues that appear in that expansion.
The game needs to continue, sure.... but we'll all need a cooling-down
period after Gehenna (which is thematically appropriate, really. :) )
> > i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
>
> - Definitely!! As long as they are reprinting Bloodlines, this is a
> great idea. But why put so many cards that are extremely popular in
> one single expansion? It might be more profitable for WW to sprinkle
> in a few Bloodlines vampires and cards into all of the future
> expansions...
No thanks.
> - There are always going to be more options as long as the guys at
> White Wolf keep developing new concepts. I realize that many people
> think the game has almost reached or exceeded it's limits, but it
> seems that there are many areas that have not been fully explored yet.
> (IMHO)
Well, the game has had a serious amount of 'mass' added to it with all
the recent sets, and all new options/meta-game changes haven't settled
down yet. But there's plenty of areas left to explore.
> - Clans within a clan... special cards for powerful "sub-groups"
>
> - Stand alone games that are also fully compatible with VTES
> (Kindred of the East, Dark Ages, etc...)
>
> - Expansions based around Hunters, Wearwolves, and other sideline
> characters
>
> - Extremely powerful Group 9 vampires... Gehenna??
> (group 8, group 7, whatever)
>
> And so on...
>
> Personally, I think the folks at White Wolf have a few tricks up their
> sleeves that they are not talking about. They will probably come up
> with some great ideas and implement them in a way that makes "most" of
> the player base happy. I'm in a "wait and see" mode... :o)
Likewise. :)
> Cheers,
> Howard
>
> PS Why wait until after the Gehenna expansion for suggestions?? Why
> not make suggestions for that expansion now? Just wondering...
Maybe because the broad strokes for the content of the Gehenna
expansion are likely to have already been painted? Hopefully because
there'll be a suitable time to evaluate the effects of all those
expansion first, and then we can get on to something new again?
--
Tobias
Deventer
Ben Swainbank
>
> - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
> Gehenna)?
Here's what I DON'T need to see: Expansion after expansion that sticks
with the same clans and vampire construction formulas. Yet another
Brujah 7 cap with 3 in-clan disciplines doesn't really give us
anything new.
After (with?) Gehanna it would be fun to be able to explore
micro-clans that just rearange the current available discplines. Give
me 5 Brujah (or a new bloodline) with variations on pot, aus, spi, and
ser. There's plenty of new combos to explore once we get out of the
3-in-clan box. Its against the cannon, but the cannon is about to
explode anyhow.
It'll be interesting to see what the "new cannon" is after Gehanna. Is
the whole world really going to be destroyed or just the bulk of its
supernatural citizens? Are we going to pretend it never happened, or
hasn't happed yet? Or play in a kind of post-vampire-apocolypse
setting? I'm hoping for the later or at least some kind of story
continuity.
>
> a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
>
New? Sure. Reprints? I'd like to continue to see starters with
reprints and then a reprint intesive base set every 2 years or so...
> b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
> Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
> of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
>
Geographic expansions sound fine. Not sure about KoE. But different
time periods create combatibility problems.
> c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
See Sabbat above.
>
> d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
> parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects
> etc.
>
Hmmm... a tenative yes... I'd be fine with vamps > 11 new disciplines
and discipline powers. But the basic balance parameters and focuses
for existing disciplines should be maintained.
> e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
>
As above.
> f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> stand-alone system, as the player chooses
>
Naw. The player base is sparse enough. We don't need to fracture it
further.
> g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
>
Sure.
> h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
> clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
> support
>
Yeah, pretty much.
> i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
>
Even better.
-Ben Swainbank
HD
>Howard wrote...
> > the_capuchin wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > What do you want to see in future expansions?
> >
> >
> > Expansions that fill in the "gaps" for Anarchs, Bloodlines, etc...
>
> Yes, but only provisionally. It's a little silly to start plugging
> I was somewhat disappointed by the apparent power level of Anarch
> cards as well, but that may yet change).
>
I agree that some of the effects of Anarchs may not be fully apparent
yet for some players, but many players have already felt their way
through the set far enough to realize that there are some important
"gaps" which should be delt with sometime soon (IMHO). I think that
"peppering" in some new Bloodline & Anarch vampires and cards in the
next few expansions would be really smart. I would buy any such
expansions for those cards alone. :o)
>
> > 1) A few more vampires for the "clans" in Bloodlines. 5, 6 & 7 caps
> >
> > 2) More cards using the Bloodlines skills.
> >
> > 3) Vampires that are already Anarchs (ex. an advanced Jimmy Dunn)
> >
> > 4) More cards for the Anarchs
> >
> > 5) Anything that flushes out the benefits of Anarchs & Bloodlines
> >
> > Specifically:
> >
> > - An 8 cap !Salubri with all their skills at superior
> >
> > - A 5 cap !Salubri with VAL/for/aus
> >
> > - A 7 cap Kiyasid with all their skills at superior
> >
> > - Vampires that are Barons (and Anarchs)
> >
> > - More "outferior" cards (like in Bloodlines)
> >
> > - Cards that have an inferior dicipline, superior dicipline, and a
> > superior of two or three diciplines (ex. dom, DOM, DOM/PRE)
> >
> > and so on...
>
> I am really against a whole new Bloodlines expansion with bountiful
> vampires for every bloodline (or even new bloodlines). I am not
> against a very small sprinkling of useful bloodlines vampires in new
> sets.
I agree. There's really no need for a whole new Bloodlines expansion.
(IMHO)
>
> My reasoning: Bloodlines are supposed to be rare. If every deck I face
> incorporates so-called 'rare' vampires, they lose some of their value
> to me. This is balanced, though, by the fact that some bloodlines
> vamps are excellent (Le Dinh Tho, Nu, Howler), while some see very
> little play. Most bloodlines could benefit, without too much trouble,
> from 1 or 2 more vampires, if introduced gradually and with a feel for
> balance.
That is the smart way to do it... profitable for WW and fun for
players.
>
> I expect we'll discover that Anarchs may need a (slight) boost in the
> future. One or 2 more pre-made barons/anarch would help establish a
> somewhat more solid 'core' for them. Of course, we have very little
> clues to what Gehenna will bring. It wouldn't be too surprising if the
> Anarchs overplay their hand in the Gehenna event, thus become more
> active (warranting more cards). Or, post-Gehenna, how 'likely' is it
> there will be enough vampires to support such outdated sects as the
> Camarilla and the Sabbat? Maybe all vampires from then on are more
> likely to be Independant (No more Antediluvian!) or Anarch... who
> knows.
>
Exactly. So much could change during the Time of Judgement that WW
can do just about anything. They could create a bunch of new vampires
for the Bloodlines or Anarchs, a bunch of Abominations (vampire and
werewolf - mixed blood), a whole army of catiff or thin blood
vampires, a precon decks based completely on hunters, wearwolves,
Banal, Technocratics, etc...
There are so many different directions to take the game during
Gehenna, that I am curious about how they will handle it. Maybe with
multiple sets... they could string it out over three or four
expansions?? That could be really cool! Each little expansion could
represent the next "stage" or serious upheaval during and right after
Gehenna. Maybe with prerelease events, we could even effect the next
set with a storyline tournament. I think that would be great. :o)
> > > a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
> >
> > - new cards: yes reprints: which ones?
>
> All clans and decks will need to grow a little more in every
> expansion, so as not to become stale. But I'd prefer a slow pace much
> more than a fast one. (So, after Gehenna - no release for a year,
> please?)
A year? Are you kidding?!? I would be really unhappy with that.
Maybe smaller "mini-expansions" would work, but holding off for a year
between expansions could seriously hurt White Wolf's profits AND cause
players that like new sets (like me) to become disinterested or
unsatisfied. Bad idea IMHO.
> With the cards introduced in BH, I think all Sabbat-Lovers will be
> plenty pleased for a time.
True. No need for even more new Sabbat cards for a while, eh?
>
> > > b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
> > > Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
> > > of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
>
> That might be nice.
Yeah, I'd like that. But it would have to be really well done.
Anarchs and Bloodlines were ok, but I think the guys at WW need to be
willing to print "fixer" cards and vampires for these types of sets.
Of course, they already do that... but I'm still a bit impatient for
a 5 cap !Salubri with VAL/for/aus and other such cards.
>
> > > c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
> >
> > - new cards - yes ...why not? reprints: is that necessary?
>
> Same as a)/Sabbat, generally.
But maybe a sprinkling of new vampires or cards would be good. No
need for a whole new expansion, but a few cards in each expansion
would be great. :o)
>
> > > d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
> > > parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects
> > > etc.
> >
> > - Seems problematic. Maybe later... much later... (but some of
> > this may happen in Gehenna anyway)
>
> Nah. Let's not up-end the game entirely. But a new post-Gehenna
> (optional) mechanic reflecting the dramatic upheaval of those times is
> very welcome, I think. Put it this way: all those high-caps
> (Methuselah's, Antediluvians) will be entering a big gore-fest. So
> afterward, the 'rules' of the game will be different - those few
> surviving Methuselah's/Antediluvians will be the best of the best (or
> the lucky), and have relatively few competitors, but also relatively
> few vampiric pawns to control. So some optional mechanic in the
> Influence/Master area is not so strange.
Whatever. As long as the changes are fun, I'm fine with it.
>
> Of course, we could also see a new Embracing-Spree from those powerful
> enough to emerge on top - if the world'd not been smothered by the
> blanket of the Banal/Technocratic.
It could get VERY interesting... :o)
>
> > > e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
>
> Same as a) and c)
Again, maybe just a few new cards and vampires in each new expansion.
That would be ok.
>
> > > f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> > > Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> > > stand-alone system, as the player chooses
> >
> >
> > - I wouldn't buy it. I will play such cards if they are introduced to
> > VTES, but I'm not interested in any separate spin off CCGs from VTES.
> > (But maybe it would be good marketing. Who knows?!?)
>
> I wouldn't buy it either.
Who would??
> > > g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
> >
> > - new cards: definitely reprints: why? Aren't they being reprinted
> > now?
>
> Nope. Let bloodlines stay exclusive.
Ok, but a few new vamps and cards here and there would be nice, right?
>
> > > h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
> > > clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
> > > support
> >
> > - This sounds good, but Gehenna may throw things pretty out of
> > whack... In that case, we may need a few expansions just to "fix" the
> > issues that appear in that expansion.
>
> The game needs to continue, sure.... but we'll all need a cooling-down
> period after Gehenna (which is thematically appropriate, really. :) )
No cooling down period needed (for me). Just smaller expansions to
reflect the ongoing changes...
>
> > > i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
> >
> > - Definitely!! As long as they are reprinting Bloodlines, this is a
> > great idea. But why put so many cards that are extremely popular in
> > one single expansion? It might be more profitable for WW to sprinkle
> > in a few Bloodlines vampires and cards into all of the future
> > expansions...
>
> No thanks.
Are you saying "no new expansion" or "no new Bloodlines vampires and
cards here and there"??
> > - There are always going to be more options as long as the guys at
> > White Wolf keep developing new concepts. I realize that many people
> > think the game has almost reached or exceeded it's limits, but it
> > seems that there are many areas that have not been fully explored yet.
> > (IMHO)
>
> Well, the game has had a serious amount of 'mass' added to it with all
> the recent sets, and all new options/meta-game changes haven't settled
> down yet. But there's plenty of areas left to explore.
Yup. Lot's of new paths and avenues to go down. I wonder what will
happen next?? :o)
>
> > - Clans within a clan... special cards for powerful "sub-groups"
> >
> > - Stand alone games that are also fully compatible with VTES
> > (Kindred of the East, Dark Ages, etc...)
> >
> > - Expansions based around Hunters, Wearwolves, and other sideline
> > characters
> >
> > - Extremely powerful Group 9 vampires... Gehenna??
> > (group 8, group 7, whatever)
> >
> > And so on...
> >
> > Personally, I think the folks at White Wolf have a few tricks up their
> > sleeves that they are not talking about. They will probably come up
> > with some great ideas and implement them in a way that makes "most" of
> > the player base happy. I'm in a "wait and see" mode... :o)
>
> Likewise. :)
>
> > Cheers,
> > Howard
> >
> > PS Why wait until after the Gehenna expansion for suggestions?? Why
> > not make suggestions for that expansion now? Just wondering...
>
> Maybe because the broad strokes for the content of the Gehenna
> expansion are likely to have already been painted? Hopefully because
> there'll be a suitable time to evaluate the effects of all those
> expansion first, and then we can get on to something new again?
They may have already set up the basic elements of what will happen,
but I bet there is still some room for exploring different ideas.
After this thread runs it's course, we should start one for the
Gehenna...
Chris Arthur
> >
> > > > f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> > > > Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> > > > stand-alone system, as the player chooses
> > >
> > >
> > > - I wouldn't buy it. I will play such cards if they are introduced to
> > > VTES, but I'm not interested in any separate spin off CCGs from VTES.
> > > (But maybe it would be good marketing. Who knows?!?)
> >
> > I wouldn't buy it either.
>
>
> Who would??
>
I would. I'd like to see a stand-alone expansion for either KoE or
Dark Ages. Tighten up the rules so you don't need a PhD in Vtes to
judge a tournament. Have three levels of disciplines to make fatties
better than weenies instead of the band-aid solutions we have now like
Zillah's Valley.
Chris.
Tobias
<snip>
> I agree that some of the effects of Anarchs may not be fully apparent
> yet for some players, but many players have already felt their way
> through the set far enough to realize that there are some important
> "gaps" which should be delt with sometime soon (IMHO). I think that
> "peppering" in some new Bloodline & Anarch vampires and cards in the
> next few expansions would be really smart. I would buy any such
> expansions for those cards alone. :o)
I'm curious how our (the player's) reception of the Anarchs set
affected the designer(s).
> There are so many different directions to take the game during
> Gehenna, that I am curious about how they will handle it. Maybe with
> multiple sets... they could string it out over three or four
> expansions?? That could be really cool! Each little expansion could
> represent the next "stage" or serious upheaval during and right after
> Gehenna. Maybe with prerelease events, we could even effect the next
> set with a storyline tournament. I think that would be great. :o)
I think it would be too much. We differ. :)
> A year? Are you kidding?!? I would be really unhappy with that.
> Maybe smaller "mini-expansions" would work, but holding off for a year
> between expansions could seriously hurt White Wolf's profits AND cause
> players that like new sets (like me) to become disinterested or
> unsatisfied. Bad idea IMHO.
No, I'm not kidding. I understand disinterest might set in for a bit,
but I think more players will be put off by having to buy ANOTHER set
AGAIN so rapidly (to stay competitive), than by not getting fresh
cards for a while. Plus, there's lots of re-print for sale, including
bloodlines, so I gather.
> > > > f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> > > > Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> > > > stand-alone system, as the player chooses
> > >
> > >
> > > - I wouldn't buy it. I will play such cards if they are introduced to
> > > VTES, but I'm not interested in any separate spin off CCGs from VTES.
> > > (But maybe it would be good marketing. Who knows?!?)
> >
> > I wouldn't buy it either.
>
>
> Who would??
There's bound to be some.
> Ok, but a few new vamps and cards here and there would be nice, right?
Sure, but I'm talking about 2 max per bloodline, over the course of 3
upcoming expansions...
> > The game needs to continue, sure.... but we'll all need a cooling-down
> > period after Gehenna (which is thematically appropriate, really. :) )
>
> No cooling down period needed (for me). Just smaller expansions to
> reflect the ongoing changes...
We differ. :)
> > > > i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
> > >
> > > - Definitely!! As long as they are reprinting Bloodlines, this is a
> > > great idea. But why put so many cards that are extremely popular in
> > > one single expansion? It might be more profitable for WW to sprinkle
> > > in a few Bloodlines vampires and cards into all of the future
> > > expansions...
> >
> > No thanks.
>
> Are you saying "no new expansion" or "no new Bloodlines vampires and
> cards here and there"??
No new expansion.
--
Tobias
Deventer
Mike Nudd
> - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
> Gehenna)?
>
> a) More and more reprints/new cards for the Sabbat
Expanding on the Sabbat as a sect and providing more vampires for each of
the Sabbat clan is fine, as long as it is done sparingly, and in balance
with the other sects/clans. No need for reprints per se, except for Shadow
Step, which I doubt is going to be included in either the BH or GH sets.
> b) Thematic expansions with cards related to historical/specific
> Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
> of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
This would be an interesting experiment, but is unlikely to appeal to new
players that much. It would also fragment the official play environment as
historical games would necessarily have to exclude many cards with modern
themes, and vice versa.
> c) More and more reprints/new cards for the Independents
As above for Sabbat. No reprints I can think of.
> d) A Shattering Blow (Fatima fears this one) on current balancing
> parameters: vampires with capacity above 11, new disciplines/effects
> etc.
I think going above capacity 11 is a mistake. However, I am very interested
in seeing more of the 'key players' of the Jyhad being included as 10 and 11
capacity vampires. I think new Disciplines are unecessary, as we've covered
all the bases already with Bloodlines. I am sure there are plenty of other
ways though to liven up the game and to provide alternate victory
conditions.
> e) More and more reprints/new cards for the Camarilla clans
As above for Sabbat. No reprints I can think of.
> f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> stand-alone system, as the player chooses
This is no different really from considering an historically-based set. KotE
could be done conservatively with their own matching Disciplines and
symbols, but it would be more interesting to see some new game mechanics
based around the use of chi (and the opposing elements of ying and yang).
> g) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with reprints and new cards
I would like to see some of the Bloodlines complementd a little further, but
purely on the basis that some of the Bloodlines we got before are basically
not competitve at all when compared to other clans, and do not in practice
work well with other clans in mixed crypts. I would prefer to see only one
or two new cards per clan and per Discipline, on the assumption that these
cards would make all the difference. Alternatively it would be great to see
new non-Bloodline-specific cards or other changes of the metagame that would
allow the existing Bloodlines cards to perform better (and this would mean
that new Bloodlines cards would not be necessary).
> h) Just more cards for the game the way it is. It doesn't matter which
> clans/bloodlines come first, as long as the game has continuing
> support
Yup. That's the bottom line.
> i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
See above.
> Any more options? This is all that comes to mind now, with viable and
> probably-impossible-to-be-made ideas...
After Gehenna I think emphasis should first move to fleshing out the various
crypt groups, establishing better balance between different Disciplines and
strategic options. Plus more vampiric titles selected from cities worldwide,
and more attention paid to new referendums and voting strategies.
Regards,
Mike
Wouter Kuyper
> > A year? Are you kidding?!? I would be really unhappy with that.
> > Maybe smaller "mini-expansions" would work, but holding off for a year
> > between expansions could seriously hurt White Wolf's profits AND cause
> > players that like new sets (like me) to become disinterested or
> > unsatisfied. Bad idea IMHO.
>
> No, I'm not kidding. I understand disinterest might set in for a bit,
> but I think more players will be put off by having to buy ANOTHER set
> AGAIN so rapidly (to stay competitive), than by not getting fresh
> cards for a while. Plus, there's lots of re-print for sale, including
> bloodlines, so I gather.
> No new expansion.
....
Completely agree with you here Tobias, i want to stay on top of all
sets, want to know all the cards, and want to have all the cards that
i think might be usefull. BUT if that is impossible for me, i think i
will loose interest.
I still haven't seen all the Anarch-cards, let alone having tried
them...Black Hand comes too fast for me...and only a few months after
that we'll see Gehenna...
I need at least a year to get into all strategies and possiblitie of
those both sets.
W
DJ Feng Shui
> General question:
>
> - What do you, VTES player, want to see in future expansions (after
> Gehenna)?
> Vampire scenarios (Dark Ages, Victorian Age, Kindred of the East and
> of the Ebony Kingdom etc.)
I would love to see something like this. It would probably have to be
contained in its own limited enviornment, but it would be very cool.
> f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> stand-alone system, as the player chooses
I like this along the same lines as b.
> i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
This is my first choice, to bolster the options for the existing
bloodlines.
>
> Any more options? This is all that comes to mind now, with viable and
> probably-impossible-to-be-made ideas...
It would be interesting to see how many people are interested in
buying cards that would not be allowed in competitive play.
Historical and alternate games would probably need their own limited
format, or have restrictions on how you mix them with more
"mainstream" cards.
Curevei
>sets, want to know all the cards, and want to have all the cards that
>i think might be usefull. BUT if that is impossible for me, i think i
>will loose interest.
>I still haven't seen all the Anarch-cards, let alone having tried
>them...Black Hand comes too fast for me...and only a few months after
>that we'll see Gehenna...
>I need at least a year to get into all strategies and possiblitie of
>those both sets.
The people who haven't seen all of the new cards, haven't tried them all,
haven't gotten into strategies and possibilities they've wanted to have had the
choice to do so. Slow releases means that people who have done what they've
wanted to with released sets don't have a choice.
John Flournoy
> A year? Are you kidding?!? I would be really unhappy with that.
> Maybe smaller "mini-expansions" would work, but holding off for a year
> between expansions could seriously hurt White Wolf's profits AND cause
> players that like new sets (like me) to become disinterested or
> unsatisfied. Bad idea IMHO.
For what it is worth, from a marketing/financial standpoint
'mini-expansions' with an accelerated release schedule has been tried
for other reasonably successful CCGs, and they absolutely bombed.
("Rolling Thunder", anyone?)
-John Flournoy
HD
> Howard wrote...
> <snip>
>
> > I agree that some of the effects of Anarchs may not be fully apparent
> > yet for some players, but many players have already felt their way
> > through the set far enough to realize that there are some important
> > "gaps" which should be delt with sometime soon (IMHO). I think that
> > "peppering" in some new Bloodline & Anarch vampires and cards in the
> > next few expansions would be really smart. I would buy any such
> > expansions for those cards alone. :o)
>
> I'm curious how our (the player's) reception of the Anarchs set
> affected the designer(s).
What do you mean? Have you heard anything about that?
>
> > There are so many different directions to take the game during
> > Gehenna, that I am curious about how they will handle it. Maybe with
> > multiple sets... they could string it out over three or four
> > expansions?? That could be really cool! Each little expansion could
> > represent the next "stage" or serious upheaval during and right after
> > Gehenna. Maybe with prerelease events, we could even effect the next
> > set with a storyline tournament. I think that would be great. :o)
>
> I think it would be too much. We differ. :)
Ok, maybe that would be a bit much... but having two expansions for
Gehenna wouldn't be that strange. It deals with a LOT of changes
drawn out over a period of time. The guys at White Wolf may not call
the following expansion "Gehenna II", but that's kind of what it will
be anyway (probably). Whatever follows Gehenna will have to deal with
any changes made during that set... right?
>
> > A year? Are you kidding?!? I would be really unhappy with that.
> > Maybe smaller "mini-expansions" would work, but holding off for a year
> > between expansions could seriously hurt White Wolf's profits AND cause
> > players that like new sets (like me) to become disinterested or
> > unsatisfied. Bad idea IMHO.
>
> No, I'm not kidding. I understand disinterest might set in for a bit,
> but I think more players will be put off by having to buy ANOTHER set
> AGAIN so rapidly (to stay competitive), than by not getting fresh
> cards for a while. Plus, there's lots of re-print for sale, including
> bloodlines, so I gather.
That's true. And fewer expansions would be easier on the pocket book,
eh? Fewer cards means less money to spend... However, I enjoy
getting new cards now and then. :o)
>
> > > > > f) Alternative gaming options - per example, a full expansion on
> > > > > Kindred of the East playable with current rules/cards or with its
> > > > > stand-alone system, as the player chooses
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - I wouldn't buy it. I will play such cards if they are introduced to
> > > > VTES, but I'm not interested in any separate spin off CCGs from VTES.
> > > > (But maybe it would be good marketing. Who knows?!?)
> > >
> > > I wouldn't buy it either.
> >
> >
> > Who would??
>
> There's bound to be some.
Sure, but would it be enough? Could White Wolf actually profit from
this? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Then again, who knows...
>
> > Ok, but a few new vamps and cards here and there would be nice, right?
>
> Sure, but I'm talking about 2 max per bloodline, over the course of 3
> upcoming expansions...
That sounds ok. Hopefully something like that will actually happen.
>
> > > The game needs to continue, sure.... but we'll all need a cooling-down
> > > period after Gehenna (which is thematically appropriate, really. :) )
> >
> > No cooling down period needed (for me). Just smaller expansions to
> > reflect the ongoing changes...
>
> We differ. :)
Yup. :o)
>
> > > > > i) A new Bloodlines-related expansion, with new cards only.
> > > >
> > > > - Definitely!! As long as they are reprinting Bloodlines, this is a
> > > > great idea. But why put so many cards that are extremely popular in
> > > > one single expansion? It might be more profitable for WW to sprinkle
> > > > in a few Bloodlines vampires and cards into all of the future
> > > > expansions...
> > >
> > > No thanks.
> >
> > Are you saying "no new expansion" or "no new Bloodlines vampires and
> > cards here and there"??
>
> No new expansion.
Ok, I agree with that. A whole new expansion based soley on
Bloodlines certainly isn't necessary. I wouldn't mind... but it
wouldn't really "fit" the parameters of the game anyway (too many
"scarce" vamps, etc.)