Questions to destroy your brain. Still need an answer though.
Kerravon
Kindred in the new combat Vampire A then plays Form of Mist at
Superior. Is the action continued?
Now to the nasty one.
Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B. Vampire B plays Illusions of the
Kindred in response Vampire A plays telepathic tracking.(there is now
a combat with a illusionary vampire pending for the end of this
combat) In the next round of combat Vampire A plays Illusions of the
Kindred. Which combat happens first? Does Vampires B combat still
happen? (This situation actually happened btw Francois Villon blocking
Gabrin)
This situation is very difficult to deal with from a gameplay point of
view. It can get even worse if both minions start playing telepathic
trackings. (Say if Ian Forester gets blocked by Francois). You could
get a situation where 5 or so Illusions of the Kindred have been
played between the two minions each time followed by telepathic
tracking. How you supposed to keep track of which combat happens when?
Quote from LSJ
"Telepathic Tracking can be played when combat is ending (e.g., by
Illusions of the Kindred). The after combat effect (Illusionary
combat)
is then put on hold until the combat actually ends."
Telepathic Tracking
Press, only usable to continue combat. If another round of combat
occurs, this vampire gets an optional maneuver during that round. (S)
Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about
to end (with no uncancelled press to continue). Combat does not end;
another round starts.
Illusions of the Kindred
Only usable before range is determined in combat. Combat ends. Move a
vampire from the bottom of your crypt to your ready region. He or she
does not contest any other vampires or titles in play. The vampire has
an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down).
Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the
vampire from the game at the end of combat. (S) As above, but the
vampire has an amount of blood equal to his or her capacity.
Kerravon
LSJ
>
> Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B. Vampire B plays Illusions of the
> Kindred in the new combat Vampire A then plays Form of Mist at
> Superior. Is the action continued?
Yes. A is still the acting vampire.
> Now to the nasty one.
>
> Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B. Vampire B plays Illusions of the
> Kindred in response Vampire A plays telepathic tracking.(there is now
> a combat with a illusionary vampire pending for the end of this
> combat)
>
> In the next round of combat Vampire A plays Illusions of the
> Kindred. Which combat happens first? Does Vampires B combat still
> happen? (This situation actually happened btw Francois Villon blocking
> Gabrin)
The first IotK played happens first.
The rest are disrupted/trumped by that combat (unless it doesn't occur).
> This situation is very difficult to deal with from a gameplay point of
> view. It can get even worse if both minions start playing telepathic
> trackings. (Say if Ian Forester gets blocked by Francois). You could
> get a situation where 5 or so Illusions of the Kindred have been
> played between the two minions each time followed by telepathic
> tracking. How you supposed to keep track of which combat happens when?
Keep track of the first. And note if the other minion also plays one.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Mike Ooi
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C0B5D96...@white-wolf.com...
> Kerravon wrote:
> > Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B. Vampire B plays Illusions of the
> > Kindred in response Vampire A plays telepathic tracking.(there is now
> > a combat with a illusionary vampire pending for the end of this
> > combat)
> >
> > In the next round of combat Vampire A plays Illusions of the
> > Kindred. Which combat happens first? Does Vampires B combat still
> > happen? (This situation actually happened btw Francois Villon blocking
> > Gabrin)
>
> The first IotK played happens first.
> The rest are disrupted/trumped by that combat (unless it doesn't occur).
Wouldn't the second Illusions of the Kindred burn the first Illusionary
Kindred, as the second Illusions of the Kindred played ends combat, and
nothing is preventing the first Illusionary Kindred from satisfying the card
text that created him?
Card Text on Illusions #1 still pending:
Remove the vampire from the game at the end of combat.
Card Text on Illusions #2:
Only usable before range is determined in combat. Combat ends.
> > This situation is very difficult to deal with from a gameplay point of
> > view. It can get even worse if both minions start playing telepathic
> > trackings. (Say if Ian Forester gets blocked by Francois). You could
> > get a situation where 5 or so Illusions of the Kindred have been
> > played between the two minions each time followed by telepathic
> > tracking. How you supposed to keep track of which combat happens when?
I don't see it being difficult. When an Illusionary vampire is in combat
with a minion who plays anything that says "Combat Ends", the Illusionary
vampire is removed from the game. No chain of Illusionary vampires fighting
each other. And nothing keeps the original combatants fighting each other
either. You can't go back to fight the original vampire if you are fighting
an Illusion (unless the original action was a Bum's Rush and you as the
acting minion play superior Form of Mist or Shadow Body, etc. during the
combat with the Illusion).
>
> Keep track of the first. And note if the other minion also plays one.
>
See above.
-Mike Ooi
Mike Ooi
> >
> > Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B. Vampire B plays Illusions of the
> > Kindred in the new combat Vampire A then plays Form of Mist at
> > Superior. Is the action continued?
>
> Yes. A is still the acting vampire.
>
> > Now to the nasty one.
> >
> > Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B. Vampire B plays Illusions of the
> > Kindred in response Vampire A plays telepathic tracking.(there is now
> > a combat with a illusionary vampire pending for the end of this
> > combat)
I also thought nothing could be played between the Combat Ends effect of
Illusions of the Kindred and the beginning of the new combat. Hence no time
to play Telepathic Tracking. The opportunity to fight Vampire B is gone.
-Mike Ooi
James Coupe
Ooi <sh...@texas.net> writes:
>I also thought nothing could be played between the Combat Ends effect of
>Illusions of the Kindred and the beginning of the new combat.
Telepathic Tracking isn't play *between* them.
--
James Coupe When correctly viewed
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Everything is lewd
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 I could tell you things about Peter Pan
13D7E668C3695D623D5D And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man
Mike Ooi
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:L0S2mGh+...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <JMMO7.136407$8q.14...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, Mike
> Ooi <sh...@texas.net> writes:
> >I also thought nothing could be played between the Combat Ends effect of
> >Illusions of the Kindred and the beginning of the new combat.
>
> Telepathic Tracking isn't play *between* them.
So then this Vampire A really wants to fight, eh? Not satisfied that the
vampire he is currently fighting is being removed from existence, he wants
to "struggle eternally"...
I can hear his controller muttering, "...cycle, cycle, cycle..."
Or did you mean that you can respond to an Illusions of the Kindred
immediately with a Telepathic Tracking?
Because you can't.
Illusions of the Kindred leaves you in the pre-range phase of a combat with
a different minion. Just like I can't respond to a Telepathic Tracking
played at superior with a Press to Continue, hoping to screw the conditions
under which it can be played.
-Mike Ooi
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3C0B5D96...@white-wolf.com...
> > Kerravon wrote:
>
> > > Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B. Vampire B plays Illusions of the
> > > Kindred in response Vampire A plays telepathic tracking.(there is now
> > > a combat with a illusionary vampire pending for the end of this
> > > combat)
> > >
> > > In the next round of combat Vampire A plays Illusions of the
> > > Kindred. Which combat happens first? Does Vampires B combat still
> > > happen? (This situation actually happened btw Francois Villon blocking
> > > Gabrin)
> >
> > The first IotK played happens first.
> > The rest are disrupted/trumped by that combat (unless it doesn't occur).
>
> Wouldn't the second Illusions of the Kindred burn the first Illusionary
> Kindred, as the second Illusions of the Kindred played ends combat, and
> nothing is preventing the first Illusionary Kindred from satisfying the card
> text that created him?
If it were played in the IotK-spawned combat, sure.
That's not the question Kerravon posed, however.
> Card Text on Illusions #1 still pending:
> Remove the vampire from the game at the end of combat.
>
> Card Text on Illusions #2:
> Only usable before range is determined in combat. Combat ends.
>
> > > This situation is very difficult to deal with from a gameplay point of
> > > view. It can get even worse if both minions start playing telepathic
> > > trackings. (Say if Ian Forester gets blocked by Francois). You could
> > > get a situation where 5 or so Illusions of the Kindred have been
> > > played between the two minions each time followed by telepathic
> > > tracking. How you supposed to keep track of which combat happens when?
>
> I don't see it being difficult. When an Illusionary vampire is in combat
> with a minion who plays anything that says "Combat Ends", the Illusionary
> vampire is removed from the game. No chain of Illusionary vampires fighting
> each other. And nothing keeps the original combatants fighting each other
> either. You can't go back to fight the original vampire if you are fighting
TT keeps the original combatants fighting each other, delaying the IotK
effect.
> an Illusion (unless the original action was a Bum's Rush and you as the
> acting minion play superior Form of Mist or Shadow Body, etc. during the
> combat with the Illusion).
>
> >
> > Keep track of the first. And note if the other minion also plays one.
> >
>
> See above.
Right.
LSJ
> I also thought nothing could be played between the Combat Ends effect of
> Illusions of the Kindred and the beginning of the new combat. Hence no time
> to play Telepathic Tracking. The opportunity to fight Vampire B is gone.
Combat
* Combat effects played at the end of a round/combat can be played when the
round ends via S:CE or similar. [RTR 20001020]
TT can be played after combat ends via Majesty, IotK, etc.
Mike Ooi
> Mike Ooi wrote:
> > I also thought nothing could be played between the Combat Ends effect of
> > Illusions of the Kindred and the beginning of the new combat. Hence no
time
> > to play Telepathic Tracking. The opportunity to fight Vampire B is gone.
>
> Combat
> * Combat effects played at the end of a round/combat can be played when
the
> round ends via S:CE or similar. [RTR 20001020]
>
> TT can be played after combat ends via Majesty, IotK, etc.
But then it is happening in the middle of Illusions of the Kindred's
effect/card text.
Card Text:
Only usable before range is determined.
Combat ends. Move a vampire from the bottom of your crypt to your ready
region. He or she does not contest any other vampires or titles in play. The
vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round
down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the
vampire from the game at the end of combat.
So, you're saying this is the order of effects?
Card Text:
Only usable before range is determined.
Combat ends. (Telepathic Tracking now occurs and its effect takes precedence
over this card, even though its effect has not yet been resolved.) Move a
vampire from the bottom of your crypt to your ready region. He or she does
not contest any other vampires or titles in play. The vampire has an amount
of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down). Combat begins
between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the vampire from the
game at the end of combat.
And you've ruled this previously...
Clarifications and Rulings
There is no room to play Psyche (superior) between the time Illusions of
Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you play
Illusions of Kindred, Psyche cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003]
So how is there now "room" to play Telepathic Tracking (superior) "between
the time Illusions of Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins?"
Card text of superior Telepathic Tracking:
Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end
(with no uncanceled press to continue). Combat does not end; another round
starts.
Card Text of superior Psyche!
Only usable at the end of a combat when both combatants are still ready.
Enter combat with the opposing minion. This is a new combat.
If the effect of Illusions of the Kindred can be interrupted for Telepathic
Tracking, why can't it be interrupted for Psyche!?
Clarifications and Rulings
There is no room to play Psyche (superior) between the time Illusions of
Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you play
Illusions of Kindred, Psyche cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003]
So could a minion meeting all the necessary criteria for the following
proposed cards play them in this fashion:
Vampire A attempts to bleed.
Vampire B blocks.
Vampires A & B enter combat.
Vampire A plays Illusions of the Kindred, ending combat.
Vampire A also plays Telepathic Tracking.
The combat between A & B continues into the second round.
Vampire A plays superior Form of Mist, continuing its bleed action. It
succeeds.
The controller of Vampire A now pulls a vampire from the bottom of their
crypt and Vampire B now must resolve combat with the Illusionary vampire.
Is this legal?
-Mike
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3C0BA1D7...@white-wolf.com...
> > Mike Ooi wrote:
> > > I also thought nothing could be played between the Combat Ends effect of
> > > Illusions of the Kindred and the beginning of the new combat. Hence no
> time
> > > to play Telepathic Tracking. The opportunity to fight Vampire B is gone.
> >
> > Combat
> > * Combat effects played at the end of a round/combat can be played when
> the
> > round ends via S:CE or similar. [RTR 20001020]
> >
> > TT can be played after combat ends via Majesty, IotK, etc.
>
> But then it is happening in the middle of Illusions of the Kindred's
> effect/card text.
Yes. [LSJ 22-OCT-2001]
> So, you're saying this is the order of effects?
> Card Text:
>
> Only usable before range is determined.
> Combat ends. (Telepathic Tracking now occurs and its effect takes precedence
> over this card, even though its effect has not yet been resolved.) Move a
Yes. [RTR 20-OCT-2001] quoted above.
> vampire from the bottom of your crypt to your ready region. He or she does
> not contest any other vampires or titles in play. The vampire has an amount
> of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down). Combat begins
> between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the vampire from the
> game at the end of combat.
>
> And you've ruled this previously...
> Clarifications and Rulings
>
> There is no room to play Psyche (superior) between the time Illusions of
> Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you play
> Illusions of Kindred, Psyche cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003]
>
> So how is there now "room" to play Telepathic Tracking (superior) "between
> the time Illusions of Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins?"
Per the RTR ruling cited.
> Card text of superior Telepathic Tracking:
> Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end
> (with no uncanceled press to continue). Combat does not end; another round
> starts.
>
> Card Text of superior Psyche!
> Only usable at the end of a combat when both combatants are still ready.
> Enter combat with the opposing minion. This is a new combat.
>
> If the effect of Illusions of the Kindred can be interrupted for Telepathic
> Tracking, why can't it be interrupted for Psyche!?
Psyche! is played after combat, by which time the IotK combat is starting.
> Clarifications and Rulings
>
> There is no room to play Psyche (superior) between the time Illusions of
> Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you play
> Illusions of Kindred, Psyche cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003]
>
> So could a minion meeting all the necessary criteria for the following
> proposed cards play them in this fashion:
>
> Vampire A attempts to bleed.
> Vampire B blocks.
> Vampires A & B enter combat.
> Vampire A plays Illusions of the Kindred, ending combat.
> Vampire A also plays Telepathic Tracking.
> The combat between A & B continues into the second round.
> Vampire A plays superior Form of Mist, continuing its bleed action. It
> succeeds.
FoM ends combat.
Then IotK kicks in producing combat.
This combat disrupts the FoM continuance, as usual.
Mike Ooi
"Mike Ooi" <sh...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:a4NO7.119743$uB.16...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>
> "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:L0S2mGh+...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> > In message <JMMO7.136407$8q.14...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, Mike
> > Ooi <sh...@texas.net> writes:
> > >I also thought nothing could be played between the Combat Ends effect
of
> > >Illusions of the Kindred and the beginning of the new combat.
> >
> > Telepathic Tracking isn't play *between* them.
>
> So then this Vampire A really wants to fight, eh? Not satisfied that the
> vampire he is currently fighting is being removed from existence, he wants
> to "struggle eternally"...
>
> I can hear his controller muttering, "...cycle, cycle, cycle..."
>
>
> Or did you mean that you can respond to an Illusions of the Kindred
> immediately with a Telepathic Tracking?
>
> Because you can't.
Evidently I missed this 22 Oct 2001 ruling, Deuce Coupe. Apparently you
can...
Sorry for any angst this might have caused you and your kin.
-Mike
Mike Ooi
> > > TT can be played after combat ends via Majesty, IotK, etc.
> >
> > But then it is happening in the middle of Illusions of the Kindred's
> > effect/card text.
>
> Yes. [LSJ 22-OCT-2001]
I looked through the thread you've mentioned, and I found this post from
Flux which went unanswered:
[begin quote]
From: "Flux" <fl...@netc.pt>
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
References: <ee6d747.01101...@posting.google.com>
<20011020031626...@mb-mv.aol.com> <3bd1ce1a$1...@212.18.160.197>
<3BD425A4...@white-wolf.com>
Subject: Re: Need a ruling
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:24:51 +0100
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3BD425A4...@white-wolf.com...
> Flux wrote:
> >
> > Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20011020031626...@mb-mv.aol.com...
> > > >Minion A plays Illusions of the Kindred. Minion B wants to play a
> > > >telepathic tracking at superior to continue the combat with minion A.
> > > >What happens?
> > >
> > > Most likely there is no chance to play Telepathic Tracking. See the
similar
> > > ruling for Psyche!:
> > >
> > > There is no room to play Psyche (superior) between the time Illusions
of
> > > Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you play
Illusions
> > > of Kindred, Psyche cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003]
> >
> > Yes, though (AFAIK) there's a fine difference between those two cases:
> > Psyche! is played _after_ combat ends, Telepathic Tracking is played
> > _before_ it ends. The result is the same only because Illusions of the
> > Kindred takes effect immediatelly (like most cards), so once played
combat
> > is ended and TT can no longer be played (and a new combat has started,
so
> > Psyche! can't be played either).
>
> Right. Telepathic Tracking can be played when combat is ending (e.g., by
> Illusions of the Kindred). The after combat effect (Illusionary combat)
> is then put on hold until the combat actually ends.
>
> > In case you're wondering, TT can be played against S:CE effects because
> > strike cards don't resolve immediatelly, like when playing Claws of the
Dead
> > after choosing a hand strike.
> >
> > ...OTOH, this would mean that TT can't be used against Elysium/Purchase
> > Pact... LSJ?
>
> I have no idea why a ruling either way on TT/IotK would affect the
> playability of TT vs. Elysium.
OK, I'll explain my reasoning:
TT is playable 'as combat is about to end', ie, whenever some effect is
about to end combat, before combat ends. This is different from Psyche!
('after combat ends').
Except for Strike and Action cards, all cards take effect as soon as played.
So, when a minion plays Illusions from the Kindred, the card's effect would
be immediate in ending combat and starting a new combat. The card's effect
can't be interrupted mid-resolution, so Psyche! cannot be played. OTOH, as
soon as the card is resolved (ie, immediately) combat ends. Then TT can't
be played because combat has already ended and it has to be played 'as
combat is about to end'. You can't play it before the IftK because combat is
not about to end before that card is played.
With Elysium/Purchase Pact something similar happens, since the 'combat
ends' effect is immediate. There's no additional effect, so Psyche! can be
played after the CE effect resolves. However, like in IftK, TT can't be
played before the effect is used, and after it is used combat has already
ended and it's too late.
If you allow TT to be played after IftK, you're interrupting the card's
resolution, to which you opposed recently in the BBA/Left for Dead thread. I
have no problem with such interruption in the case of Catatonic Fear (or
similar effects) because there's some time between the strike being played
and the 'Combat Ends' effect, and TT could be played then ('as combat is
about to end').
I see that the [RTR 20001020] rulings concerning 'end of combat' effects
could contradict this line of thought, but the wording on TT is different
from other 'end of combat' cards. Should I just consider it a 'cosmetic'
difference, or is there some situation where it will really work
differently?
Flux
(hoping that's clear enough)
[end quote]
--
My apologies if I've breached some net-iquette. Feel free to flame me at
home. Back to the issue at hand:
I'd like an answer to Flux's question, as I feel it is somewhat relevant.
More possible examples:
Camarilla Vampire A (acting) enters combat with Camarilla Vampire B.
Vampire A's controller taps Elysium:the Aboretum to end combat.
Vampire A then plays Telepathic Tracking.
Vampires A & B are free to play combat cards not playable on the first
round.
Or this:
Legacy of Power:
Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable when
a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may play
this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both vampires
engaged in combat go into torpor.
When does it resolve?
Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable when
a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may play
this card to end combat. (Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat
occurs, then this:) Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both vampires
engaged in combat go into torpor.
Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable when
a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may play
this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. (Telepathic
Tracking, second round of combat occurs, then this:) Both vampires engaged
in combat go into torpor.
Or something more familiar:
Rotschreck:
Out-of-Turn. Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage against a
vampire, whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is resolved.
That vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the
vampire's next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the vampire.
When does this resolve?
Out-of-Turn. Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage against a
vampire, whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is resolved.
(Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat occurs, then this:) That
vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the vampire's
next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the vampire.
Or Mummify?
Strike: combat ends. This vampire untaps and goes into torpor; put this card
on the vampire. This vampire cannot attempt the leave torpor action. Burn
this card if the vampire leaves torpor.
Does it resolve like this?
Strike: combat ends. (Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat occurs,
then this:) This vampire untaps and goes into torpor; put this card on the
vampire. This vampire cannot attempt the leave torpor action. Burn this card
if the vampire leaves torpor.
Why does Telepathic Tracking get to "slide" into the middle of a card's
effect? If it can't "slide" into the middle of ALL of the above cards'
effects, then why does it get to do so to Illusions of the Kindred?
IANLSJBIAMO: Either way, I've got some interesting decks to build based on
your answers...
-Mike Ooi
Building the Tremere/!Tremere Elysium/PP:TT/Gotcha! Deck as we speak
LSJ
Things that "end combat and do something after combat ends":
Catatonic Fear superior
Illusions of the Kindred.
Other "thing that happens after combat":
Undead Persistence (inferior).
Propositions:
TT can be played when combat is ending (card text).
Doing so will not erase the "things that happen after combat"
Result:
current rulings.
> More possible examples:
>
> Camarilla Vampire A (acting) enters combat with Camarilla Vampire B.
> Vampire A's controller taps Elysium:the Aboretum to end combat.
> Vampire A then plays Telepathic Tracking.
> Vampires A & B are free to play combat cards not playable on the first
> round.
Right. This follows obviously from card text. I don't see anything
that could be causing confusion here.
> Or this:
>
> Legacy of Power:
> Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable when
> a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may play
> this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both vampires
> engaged in combat go into torpor.
>
> When does it resolve?
When played.
> Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable when
> a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may play
> this card to end combat. (Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat
> occurs, then this:) Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both vampires
> engaged in combat go into torpor.
>
> Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable when
> a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may play
> this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. (Telepathic
> Tracking, second round of combat occurs, then this:) Both vampires engaged
> in combat go into torpor.
>
> Or something more familiar:
>
> Rotschreck:
> Out-of-Turn. Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage against a
> vampire, whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is resolved.
> That vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the
> vampire's next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the vampire.
>
> When does this resolve?
When played.
> Out-of-Turn. Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage against a
> vampire, whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is resolved.
> (Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat occurs, then this:) That
> vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the vampire's
> next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the vampire.
>
> Or Mummify?
> Strike: combat ends. This vampire untaps and goes into torpor; put this card
> on the vampire. This vampire cannot attempt the leave torpor action. Burn
> this card if the vampire leaves torpor.
>
> Does it resolve like this?
> Strike: combat ends. (Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat occurs,
> then this:) This vampire untaps and goes into torpor; put this card on the
> vampire. This vampire cannot attempt the leave torpor action. Burn this card
> if the vampire leaves torpor.
Yes.
> Why does Telepathic Tracking get to "slide" into the middle of a card's
> effect? If it can't "slide" into the middle of ALL of the above cards'
> effects, then why does it get to do so to Illusions of the Kindred?
Previous "as combat ends" ruling.
Necessary for proper TT function re: Catatonic Fear, Form of Mist, etc.
Mike Ooi
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C0BD840...@white-wolf.com...
> Mike Ooi wrote:
> >
> > Legacy of Power:
> > Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable
when
> > a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may
play
> > this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both
vampires
> > engaged in combat go into torpor.
> >
> > When does it resolve?
>
> When played.
Still am not quite following you. My question is, in what order are these
effects applied? If Telepathic Tracking is played in response to these
cards, how are they resolved?
Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B.
Vampire C plays Legacy of Power.
Vampire A plays Telepathic Tracking.
How are these effects applied? In this order?
> > Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable
when
> > a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may
play
> > this card to end combat. (Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat
> > occurs, then this:) Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both vampires
> > engaged in combat go into torpor.
Or this one?
> > Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable
when
> > a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may
play
> > this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends.
(Telepathic
> > Tracking, second round of combat occurs, then this:) Both vampires
engaged
> > in combat go into torpor.
Or this one?
> > Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable
when
> > a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may
play
> > this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both
vampires engaged
> > in combat go into torpor. (Telepathic Tracking is negated or "fizzles"
due to both vampires being ready.)
If the latter of the three is correct, why can't Telepathic Tracking "slide
in" on the other two posed?
Again with Rotschreck. If Telepathic Tracking is played in response, how are
the effects applied?
> > Rotschreck:
> > Out-of-Turn. Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage
against a
> > vampire, whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is
resolved.
> > That vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the
> > vampire's next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the
vampire.
Does it resolve like this?
> > Out-of-Turn. Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage
against a
> > vampire, whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is
resolved.
> > (Telepathic Tracking, second round of combat occurs, then this:) That
> > vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the
vampire's
> > next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the vampire.
> > Why does Telepathic Tracking get to "slide" into the middle of a card's
> > effect? If it can't "slide" into the middle of ALL of the above cards'
> > effects, then why does it get to do so to Illusions of the Kindred?
>
> Previous "as combat ends" ruling.
Yes, but my question is: what was the reasoning behind the ruling? I can
take the ruling at face value, but I would like to avoid playing under this
assumption: In the post quoted at the end of this post, The Lasombra wrote,
"There is no timing stack. Each affect or card resolves completely before
any other effect."
If all I have to point to is a ruling and I don't know the reasoning behind
it, then I don't know why or if the ruling is an exception to the rules.
> Necessary for proper TT function re: Catatonic Fear, Form of Mist, etc.
*When played, I get it. =8^P -So did the ruling necessary for proper
function vs Cat Fear, Form of Mist, Riposte, etc. take Illusions of the
Kindred into account?
Did it take Rotschreck into account?
What else does this ruling "open up?"
Can Ignis Fatuus be played by your Grand-Prey to reduce your bleed by one if
you are attempting to bleed your Prey for 4 and your Prey plays Archon
Investigation?
Why not?
They have the opportunity to play Sudden Reversal, why not Ignis Fatuus?
If they do play it, and the bleed is reduced to 3, what happens to the
Archon Investigation?
-Mike Ooi
Loving the new possibilities...Gotta trade for TTs
*P.S. I added spaces between the sentences so you could do your trademark
1-3 word responses in between!
[begin quote]
From: "The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Subject: Re: Here's the real question! BBA and Left for Dead
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:14:13 +0000 (UTC)
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"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:5287ede4.01101...@posting.google.com...
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:<3BC3A1E5...@white-wolf.com>...
> > Chris Berger wrote:
> > > > > But then BBA doesn't burn, by card text on LfD. No offense, but
your
> > > post didn't really explain anything.
> > >
> > > This is the way I see the sequence happening:
> > >
> > > 1) BBA is burned
AND COMBAT ENDS.
Psyche! cannot be played from this point on.
> > > 2) LfD is played
> > > 3) LfD ends combat
LfD Ends Combat redundantly. Combat already ends immediately when
either of the minions involved is no longer ready. For the Left
for Dead to be played, Combat has to already end with the ally being
burned.
> > > 4) BBA's text kicks in, burning BBA.
Right.
> > > 5) LfD says that BBA is not burned.
Wrong.
There is no timing stack.
Each affect or card resolves completely before any other effect.
Ally is burned.
Combat ends.
Left for Dead is played.
Ally is not burned, combat is confirmed as not restarting or continuing.
Ally is burned by its own text.
> > But LfD has already finished - it's not an ongoing effect (well, the
"not burning"
> > part isn't, at any rate).
> >
>
> Okay, if LfD is already finished by the time combat ends (which is
> when the BBA burns), then I should be able to play Psyche! after a LfD
> has been played (on just about any ally *other* than BBA).
No, the combat ended when the ally burned.
> Here's the deal... both cards, Psyche! and BBA, pretty much require
> the ally to be ready when they take effect. With BBA, if the ally is
> not ready when combat ends, then the ally cannot burn again. Because
> you agreed that there is no way for a card to be "doubly burned".
> With Psyche!, the ally also has to be ready when combat ends. If the
> ally is not ready when combat ends, then you cannot play Psyche!
You have too many abbreviations in this post. Obviously you need to
rethink this paragraph.
> So, either the ally is ready when combat ends, or it isn't.
The ally is burned. Combat Ends.
Everything else happens later.
Read 6.4.3 of the Final Nights rulebook, or its online version here:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_4_3
"If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready (because one has
taken too much damage, for instance), then combat ends immediately.
So if a strike inflicts more damage than a minion can heal or prevent,
then combat ends at that point (no further strikes, no presses, etc.).
This is true at any point during combat, not just during strike resolution."
> For Psyche!, you're saying that it cannot be
> played because the ally is not ready when combat ends.
The ally is burned.
Combat Ends immediately.
Psyche! cannot be played after this point.
> Both effects take place at the same time ("when combat ends"), and in this
> particular case have the same requirement... that the ally who has had
> LfD played on him is not burned. Is the ally considered to be ready
> when combat ends or not?
The ally burned.
The combat ended immediately.
Psyche! cannot be played.
After Left for Dead has been played, the combat has ended (or been
cancelled)
and the Blood Brother Ambush burns itself.
"Burn this card at the end of combat or if the combat is cancelled."
The Blood Brother Ambush cannot be prevented from burning itself by Left
For Dead. Damage or blood costs paid have to kill the Blood Brother Ambush
in order for Left For Dead to be played.
As the Left for Dead has to be played by someone who is not the controlled
of
the Blood Brother Ambush, it is a VERY pointless discussion.
Should it happen in a game, have a great laugh. Then remove from cards from
the playing area and continue on with the next action.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
--
Posted from rr-163-54-80.atl.mediaone.net [24.163.54.80]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
[end quote]
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3C0BD840...@white-wolf.com...
> > Mike Ooi wrote:
> > >
> > > Legacy of Power:
> > > Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable
> when
> > > a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may
> play
> > > this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both
> vampires
> > > engaged in combat go into torpor.
> > >
> > > When does it resolve?
> >
> > When played.
>
> Still am not quite following you. My question is, in what order are these
> effects applied? If Telepathic Tracking is played in response to these
> cards, how are they resolved?
>
> Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B.
> Vampire C plays Legacy of Power.
> Vampire A plays Telepathic Tracking.
>
> How are these effects applied? In this order?
TT continues combat, suspending LoP's after-combat effects until after combat.
> Again with Rotschreck. If Telepathic Tracking is played in response, how are
> the effects applied?
The same. The after combat effects occur after combat.
> > > Why does Telepathic Tracking get to "slide" into the middle of a card's
> > > effect? If it can't "slide" into the middle of ALL of the above cards'
> > > effects, then why does it get to do so to Illusions of the Kindred?
> >
> > Previous "as combat ends" ruling.
>
> Yes, but my question is: what was the reasoning behind the ruling? I can
Necessary for proper function re: CF, FoM, etc.
> take the ruling at face value, but I would like to avoid playing under this
> assumption: In the post quoted at the end of this post, The Lasombra wrote,
> "There is no timing stack. Each affect or card resolves completely before
> any other effect."
Yes.
Except for Sudden Reversal et al.
And "when-combat-ends" effects can be played when combat ends.
> If all I have to point to is a ruling and I don't know the reasoning behind
> it, then I don't know why or if the ruling is an exception to the rules.
>
> > Necessary for proper TT function re: Catatonic Fear, Form of Mist, etc.
>
> *When played, I get it. =8^P -So did the ruling necessary for proper
> function vs Cat Fear, Form of Mist, Riposte, etc. take Illusions of the
> Kindred into account?
I'm not groking your question here.
> Did it take Rotschreck into account?
It does.
> What else does this ruling "open up?"
Whatever ends combat.
> Can Ignis Fatuus be played by your Grand-Prey to reduce your bleed by one if
> you are attempting to bleed your Prey for 4 and your Prey plays Archon
> Investigation?
No.
> Why not?
It isn't a "as vampire is being burned" card.
> They have the opportunity to play Sudden Reversal, why not Ignis Fatuus?
No need.
Mike Ooi
can't Psyche! "slide into" the effects of Illusions of the Kindred?
Card Text on Psyche! (superior):
Only usable at the end of a combat when both combatants are still ready.
Enter combat with the opposing minion. This is a new combat.
Card Text on Telepathic Tracking (superior):
Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end
(with no uncanceled press to continue). Combat does not end; another round
starts.
The requirements for both cards are met when Illusions of the Kindred is
played:
Card Text on Illusions of the Kindred:
Combat ends. Move a vampire from the bottom of your crypt to your ready
region. He or she does not contest any other vampires or titles in play. The
vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round
down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the
vampire from the game at the end of combat.
I don't see the difference that allows Telepathic Tracking and not Psyche!
to "slide into" the effect of Illusions. I understood the ruling:
"There is no room to play Psyche (superior) between the time Illusions of
Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you play
Illusions of Kindred, Psyche cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003] "
So what in the card text for Telepathic Tracking makes "room?"
Granted, Telepathic Tracking stops combat from ending. Psyche! does not.
But if Psyche! has to wait for the end of Illusions effect, why doesn't
Telepathic Tracking?
If Telepathic Tracking does not have to wait for the end of the Illusions
effect, why does Psyche!?
To quote an authoritative source: "By the time Illusions finishes up, you
are no longer "at the end of
combat when both combatants..." - you are long past that combat."
Are you liking the spaces?
Are they convenient? ;^)
-Mike Ooi
You caught me on a Laundry Day...
[begin quote]
From: LSJ <vte...@wizards.com>
Subject: Re: ?: Illusions of the Kindred
Date: 1997/10/03
Message-ID: <8758815...@dejanews.com>#1/1
References: <60uhik$c...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>
<8757948...@dejanews.com>
<Pine.SUN.3.96.971002101143.14120A-100000@amanda>
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Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
John Whelan <jbwh...@amanda.dorsai.org> wrote:
> LSJ, here's another "Illusions of the Kindred" question for you:
> Suppose my opponent plays "Illusions...." and I immediately follow by
> playing "Psyche" at superior to start a new combat with the minion for
> whom combat just ended. What happens?
Good question.
Based on the precedent of trying to play Fast Reaction after Hidden
Lurker (i.e.: Hidden Lurker precludes the play of Fast Reaction), I'd
have to say that Psyche cannot be played after Illusions of Kindred
(unless no combat results from the Illusions - when the crypt is empty).
By the time Illusions finishes up, you are no longer "at the end of
combat when both combatants..." - you are long past that combat.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
[end quote]
LSJ
>
> Okay, I am understanding the above discussion, but why not Psyche!? Why
> can't Psyche! "slide into" the effects of Illusions of the Kindred?
Psyche! (superior) is played after combat - the pending after-combat stuff
from the already-played effect goes first (first effect played and all that).
> So what in the card text for Telepathic Tracking makes "room?"
"when combat is about to end"
> Granted, Telepathic Tracking stops combat from ending. Psyche! does not.
>
> But if Psyche! has to wait for the end of Illusions effect, why doesn't
> Telepathic Tracking?
>
> If Telepathic Tracking does not have to wait for the end of the Illusions
> effect, why does Psyche!?
Psyche! is competing for the already-taken timing window for "what to do
after combat". TT is not - it happens before the "after combat" stuff.
> -Mike Ooi
> You caught me on a Laundry Day...
Lucky me. :-)
Flux
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3C0BBB47...@white-wolf.com...
>
> > > > TT can be played after combat ends via Majesty, IotK, etc.
> > >
> > > But then it is happening in the middle of Illusions of the Kindred's
> > > effect/card text.
> >
> > Yes. [LSJ 22-OCT-2001]
>
> I looked through the thread you've mentioned, and I found this post from
> Flux which went unanswered:
<snip quote>
> I'd like an answer to Flux's question, as I feel it is somewhat relevant.
I did get an answer from LSJ to this post, though only after I repeated it by email.
The [RTR 20001020] means you always get the chance to play TT when combat ends (it is treated as a
'end of combat' card), baring any other restrictions.
That may not mean that it is playable in all your examples because in some of those cases some of the
minions are going to torpor, which would prevent TT from being played, but I'm not sure of the timing on
those cases so I'll wait for LSJ's answer too.
BTW, I don't like this ruling and some of it's implications and see no need for it.
Flux
Flux
discussion over my now almost useless news server and Google... :-(
If anyone has any sugestions for good, free, news servers I can use...
"Mike Ooi" <sh...@texas.net> wrote in message news:<3gSO7.121041$uB.16...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...
> Okay, I am understanding the above discussion, but why not Psyche!? Why
> can't Psyche! "slide into" the effects of Illusions of the Kindred?
>
> Card Text on Psyche! (superior):
> Only usable at the end of a combat when both combatants are still ready.
> Enter combat with the opposing minion. This is a new combat.
>
> Card Text on Telepathic Tracking (superior):
> Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end
> (with no uncanceled press to continue). Combat does not end; another round
> starts.
>
> The requirements for both cards are met when Illusions of the Kindred is
> played:
>
> Card Text on Illusions of the Kindred:
> Combat ends. Move a vampire from the bottom of your crypt to your ready
> region. He or she does not contest any other vampires or titles in play. The
> vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round
> down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the
> vampire from the game at the end of combat.
>
> I don't see the difference that allows Telepathic Tracking and not Psyche!
> to "slide into" the effect of Illusions. I understood the ruling:
>
> "There is no room to play Psyche (superior) between the time Illusions of
> Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you play
> Illusions of Kindred, Psyche cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003] "
>
> So what in the card text for Telepathic Tracking makes "room?"
It is played 'as combat is about to end', and not 'when combat ends'
(which, for some reason, actually means 'after combat ends'). :-P
> Granted, Telepathic Tracking stops combat from ending. Psyche! does not.
That is not the problem here (though it could be).
> But if Psyche! has to wait for the end of Illusions effect, why doesn't
> Telepathic Tracking?
Because of the 'clarification' that states that Psyche! is played
_after_ combat ends.
Flux
Kerravon
strikes and action cards) are instantaneous. That is everything
written on the card happens the moment the card is played. There is no
oppurtunity to interrupt what the card does. Now at the moment I play
an Illusions of the Kindred before anything else happens before anyone
has the chance to play any card ALL the text on Illusions of the
Kindred happens. Now either the card effect is instantaneous in which
case you can't play a telepathic tracking as you are now in a new
combat with another vampire or the card effect isn't instantaneous in
which case you can play TT.
So which is it?
Are all card effects instant? Or not?
Kerravon
GreySeer
need for it.
I agree, I also agree with Kerravon when he said "Its been my understanding
that ALL card effects (with the exception of
strikes and action cards) are instantaneous." not only is that my
understanding but I think, for the sake of consistency and simplicity that
this should be the case. When a card resolves, the effects on the text
cannot be interrupted. Unfotunately this also has unplesant implications. I
can see a CEL/AUS deck going Riposte, TT, Riposte, TT, Riposte..... doing 2
unpreventable a round by ending combat ( at 2 blood a hit it's a bit
expensive though but you get my point ).
Mike Ooi
> Mike Ooi wrote:
> >
> > Okay, I am understanding the above discussion, but why not Psyche!? Why
> > can't Psyche! "slide into" the effects of Illusions of the Kindred?
>
> Psyche! (superior) is played after combat - the pending after-combat stuff
> from the already-played effect goes first (first effect played and all
that).
>
And now the circle is complete. So the only reason Telepathic Tracking is so
"slidy" is because it is the only card that prevents combat from ending,
which is one of the effects a lot of these cards generate.
So other cards in the future which might say, "Combat does not end..." could
also interact in this somewhat unique fashion.
And now I have new decks to build, even before I receive my Bloodlines
cards...
> > -Mike Ooi
> > You caught me on a Laundry Day...
>
> Lucky me. :-)
Oh no no, lucky me. I am now older, wiser, and I have clean underwear. Look
out Austin!
Mike Ooi
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
news:u0opebq...@news.supernews.com...
> > BTW, I don't like this ruling and some of it's implications and see no
> need for it.
>
As was my thinking earlier today (somewhere around the jeans being thrown in
the dryer) and I'm still unsure as to the future "sanctity of card effects",
but so far Telepathic Tracking is the only one that "slides". Can you think
of any other cards that do this? Who knows? Maybe in the future we'll see a
reaction card that allows you to change the target of a D action.
> I agree, I also agree with Kerravon when he said "Its been my
understanding
> that ALL card effects (with the exception of
> strikes and action cards) are instantaneous." not only is that my
> understanding but I think, for the sake of consistency and simplicity that
> this should be the case. When a card resolves, the effects on the text
> cannot be interrupted. Unfotunately this also has unplesant implications.
I
> can see a CEL/AUS deck going Riposte, TT, Riposte, TT, Riposte..... doing
2
> unpreventable a round by ending combat ( at 2 blood a hit it's a bit
> expensive though but you get my point ).
I've seen the deck, and it gets really expensive, especially since all it
was taking down were weenies, since the fatties it went up against could
take care of themselves (maneuvers, grapples, etc.). Also stopping the blood
flow onto the minions doing it made it crumple. I'm more excited about
building a Tremere/!Tremere Elysium/Purchase Pact/Telepathic Tracking/2nd
Round Thaum deck.
-Mike Ooi
Oh, the Places You'll Go!
Archibald Zimonyi
Not all of them no. In case of Illusions of the Kindred and Telepathic
Tracking the effect of Telepathic Tracking works as such that if the
combat is about to end (either by Strike: Combat Ends och presses that
balance each other out) then a new round begins. So the rest of the
text on Illusions of the Kindred never gets the chance to kick in
since the combat is not ended.
You could say that if a card has multiple actions then the first
action must succeed in order for the second to take effect and so on.
Archie
LSJ
All are instant unless they are interrupted.
Any effect that is played as a round/combat is ending can be played at that
time, for instance. (TT)
Any effect that is played as a card is played can be played at that time.
(Sudden Reversal, Direct Intervention).
LSJ
>
> > BTW, I don't like this ruling and some of it's implications and see no
> need for it.
>
> I agree, I also agree with Kerravon when he said "Its been my understanding
> that ALL card effects (with the exception of
> strikes and action cards) are instantaneous." not only is that my
> understanding but I think, for the sake of consistency and simplicity that
> this should be the case.
So nothing should interrupt Undead Persistence and the go-to-torpor-after-combat
effect that it generates?
This is nothing new.
TT should obviously "trump" Majesty. And Form of Mist.
If you have that, then, by consistency, you have: and Illusions of the Kindred.
Conceptually the IotK effect is a different beast - it should thwart/negate
the original combat altogether (see the Slave rule for an example). But it
doesn't - it is implemented as a "combat ends" effect.
So rather than come up with a bunch of piecemeal rulings as to what is
evasion (and thwarted by TT) and what is negation (and not), the RT settled
on the single, card-text-based ruling you see now.
> When a card resolves, the effects on the text
> cannot be interrupted.
Nice theory. I use it whenever possible.
However, that theory makes Form of Mist a real killer.
Kerravon
Except Riposte is a strike and doesn't happen instantly. IoTK isn't a
strike and should happen instantly.
Kerravon
Jeroen
> need for it.
>
> I agree, I also agree with Kerravon when he said "Its been my understanding
> that ALL card effects (with the exception of
> strikes and action cards) are instantaneous." not only is that my
> understanding but I think, for the sake of consistency and simplicity that
> this should be the case. When a card resolves, the effects on the text
> cannot be interrupted. Unfotunately this also has unplesant implications.
If I understand it correctly (fat chance ;-) ), a Ravnos plays
Illusions o/t Kindred, opposing Tzim plays Telepathic Tracking.
First, there's a round of combat Tzim vs 'real' Ravnos.
After this round, barring presses and a new TT, an illusionary Ravnos
appears and fights the Tzim. Right?
Doesn't this create new timing issues?
What happens if the Tzim is question torporises the 'original' Ravnos?
Does the second combat still occur?
In the case of the Tzim diablerising the Ravnos (amaranth), what goes
first, the IotK combat or the Bloodhunt? I'd say Bloodhunt, but why?
...
If, in the above cases, the second combat doesn't start, does the
illusionary vamp still make the trip fom Bottom of Crypt to Removed
From the Game?
I
> can see a CEL/AUS deck going Riposte, TT, Riposte, TT, Riposte..... doing 2
> unpreventable a round by ending combat ( at 2 blood a hit it's a bit
> expensive though but you get my point ).
Has been done, doesn't really work well. As you say, too expensive and
very sensitive to IG. Even the version with blood to Water used too
much cards per combat. Another problem, with CEL/AUS, what are you
going to do in the first round? A friend of mine has been trying to
make a THA/AUS/CEL deck that does this, but to counter the cost he was
thinking along the lines of Ankara Citadel and ranged, theft,
additional, Riposte, TT. I think he has abandoned this project
entirely.
Jeroen
Flux
> On 3 Dec 2001 19:32:23 -0800, kerr...@mailcity.com (Kerravon) wrote:
>
> >Its been my understanding that ALL card effects (with the exception of
> >strikes and action cards) are instantaneous. That is everything
> >written on the card happens the moment the card is played. There is no
> >oppurtunity to interrupt what the card does. Now at the moment I play
> >an Illusions of the Kindred before anything else happens before anyone
> >has the chance to play any card ALL the text on Illusions of the
> >Kindred happens. Now either the card effect is instantaneous in which
> >case you can't play a telepathic tracking as you are now in a new
> >combat with another vampire or the card effect isn't instantaneous in
> >which case you can play TT.
> >
> >So which is it?
> >
> >Are all card effects instant? Or not?
> >
> Not all of them no. In case of Illusions of the Kindred and Telepathic
> Tracking the effect of Telepathic Tracking works as such that if the
> combat is about to end (either by Strike: Combat Ends och presses that
> balance each other out) then a new round begins. So the rest of the
> text on Illusions of the Kindred never gets the chance to kick in
> since the combat is not ended.
Sorry, but that's not how it works. The IotK will still happen when combat ends, but that moment will be
delayed by TT.
Flux
Tim Eijpe
>It is quite frustrating to try to follow and participate in this
>discussion over my now almost useless news server and Google... :-(
>
>If anyone has any sugestions for good, free, news servers I can use...
I have no problems with Mailandnews.com
You can register, get an emailaddress and post to NG's
Tim
LSJ
>
> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<u0opebq...@news.supernews.com>...
> > > BTW, I don't like this ruling and some of it's implications and see no
> > need for it.
> >
> > I agree, I also agree with Kerravon when he said "Its been my understanding
> > that ALL card effects (with the exception of
> > strikes and action cards) are instantaneous." not only is that my
> > understanding but I think, for the sake of consistency and simplicity that
> > this should be the case. When a card resolves, the effects on the text
> > cannot be interrupted. Unfotunately this also has unplesant implications.
>
> If I understand it correctly (fat chance ;-) ), a Ravnos plays
> Illusions o/t Kindred, opposing Tzim plays Telepathic Tracking.
> First, there's a round of combat Tzim vs 'real' Ravnos.
> After this round, barring presses and a new TT, an illusionary Ravnos
> appears and fights the Tzim. Right?
Right.
> Doesn't this create new timing issues?
> What happens if the Tzim is question torporises the 'original' Ravnos?
> Does the second combat still occur?
No. Standard for all "enter combat" effects when one of the would-be
combatants isn't ready.
> In the case of the Tzim diablerising the Ravnos (amaranth), what goes
> first, the IotK combat or the Bloodhunt? I'd say Bloodhunt, but why?
> ...
Because bloodhunt happens immediately (before combat ends).
> If, in the above cases, the second combat doesn't start, does the
> illusionary vamp still make the trip fom Bottom of Crypt to Removed
> From the Game?
Yes.
James Coupe
<kerr...@mailcity.com> writes:
>Except Riposte is a strike and doesn't happen instantly. IoTK isn't a
>strike and should happen instantly.
Compare Weather Control/Elysium.
Tapping Elysium does not instantly end combat; it is interrupted by the
necessity of dealing Weather Control damage, and then ends combat.
--
James Coupe When correctly viewed
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Everything is lewd
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 I could tell you things about Peter Pan
13D7E668C3695D623D5D And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man
James Coupe
Go to http://news.cis.dfn.de/
It's fast, free and perfectly good, especially for people in Europe.
Flux
> GreySeer wrote:
> >
> > > BTW, I don't like this ruling and some of it's implications and see no
> > need for it.
> >
> > I agree, I also agree with Kerravon when he said "Its been my understanding
> > that ALL card effects (with the exception of
> > strikes and action cards) are instantaneous." not only is that my
> > understanding but I think, for the sake of consistency and simplicity that
> > this should be the case.
>
> So nothing should interrupt Undead Persistence and the go-to-torpor-after-combat
> effect that it generates?
Hm?
Undead Persistence sets an effect that happens when combat ends. Much like some before range
cards set up effects to happen later during the combat. This has little to do with interrupting (what should
be) an instantaneous effect.
Or rather, the effects don't have to be instantaneous, but if they don't specify a timing they should all
happen at the same time.
> This is nothing new.
> TT should obviously "trump" Majesty. And Form of Mist.
> If you have that, then, by consistency, you have: and Illusions of the Kindred.
Not necessarily.
See my post that was quoted before, you can have TT 'trump' Majesty and FoM and yet fail against IotK
with a different set of rulings, possibly even a simpler one (IMO).
> Conceptually the IotK effect is a different beast - it should thwart/negate
> the original combat altogether (see the Slave rule for an example). But it
> doesn't - it is implemented as a "combat ends" effect.
>
> So rather than come up with a bunch of piecemeal rulings as to what is
> evasion (and thwarted by TT) and what is negation (and not), the RT settled
> on the single, card-text-based ruling you see now.
>
> > When a card resolves, the effects on the text
> > cannot be interrupted.
>
> Nice theory. I use it whenever possible.
> However, that theory makes Form of Mist a real killer.
Not as I see it, TT could still be played and the action would fizzle, same as with Psyche!
There would be no interruption of the effect, a FoM-TT combat would have the following timing:
- Vamp A strikes with FoM.
- Vamp B strikes for hands.
- FoM resolves. Combat Ends and the Action continues (all at the same time)
- Vamp B plays TT when combat ends. Combat continues, action fizzles.
Or, if you remove the [RTR 20001020]:
- Vamp A plays FoM.
- Vamp B strikes for hands, then plays TT as 'combat is about to end' due to the strike effect.
-> FoM would end combat and continue the action here (all at the same time), but we never got to strike
resolution due to TT, so it doesn't get to resolve.
Psyche! would suffer no significant change.
Flux
LSJ
>
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 06:34:06 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > GreySeer wrote:
> > >
> > > > BTW, I don't like this ruling and some of it's implications and see no
> > > need for it.
> > >
> > > I agree, I also agree with Kerravon when he said "Its been my understanding
> > > that ALL card effects (with the exception of
> > > strikes and action cards) are instantaneous." not only is that my
> > > understanding but I think, for the sake of consistency and simplicity that
> > > this should be the case.
> >
> > So nothing should interrupt Undead Persistence and the go-to-torpor-after-combat
> > effect that it generates?
>
> Hm?
>
> Undead Persistence sets an effect that happens when combat ends. Much like some before range
> cards set up effects to happen later during the combat. This has little to do with interrupting (what should
> be) an instantaneous effect.
> Or rather, the effects don't have to be instantaneous, but if they don't specify a timing they should all
> happen at the same time.
If you say so. IotK sets up an effect that happens after combat and assumes that
combat will be ending immediately (due to the other card text).
> > This is nothing new.
> > TT should obviously "trump" Majesty. And Form of Mist.
> > If you have that, then, by consistency, you have: and Illusions of the Kindred.
>
> Not necessarily.
> See my post that was quoted before, you can have TT 'trump' Majesty and FoM and yet fail against IotK
> with a different set of rulings, possibly even a simpler one (IMO).
With piecemeal rulings you can accomplish anything (except uniformity).
> Not as I see it, TT could still be played and the action would fizzle, same as with Psyche!
> There would be no interruption of the effect, a FoM-TT combat would have the following timing:
>
> - Vamp A strikes with FoM.
> - Vamp B strikes for hands.
> - FoM resolves. Combat Ends and the Action continues (all at the same time)
> - Vamp B plays TT when combat ends. Combat continues, action fizzles.
Then TT would fizzle the after-combat effects of IotK and Rotschreck. Not good.
> Or, if you remove the [RTR 20001020]:
>
> - Vamp A plays FoM.
> - Vamp B strikes for hands, then plays TT as 'combat is about to end' due to the strike effect.
> -> FoM would end combat and continue the action here (all at the same time), but we never got to strike
> resolution due to TT, so it doesn't get to resolve.
If it doesn't resolve, then combat is not about to end and TT cannot be played.
Paradox. Not good.
Derek Ray
"Mike Ooi" <sh...@texas.net> mumbled something about:
>Oh no no, lucky me. I am now older, wiser, and I have clean underwear. Look
>out Austin!
...And now Austin has soiled underwear.
--
Derek
...Vampire Squirrel has come to bite your nuts!
legbiter
> It is quite frustrating to try to follow and participate in this
> discussion over my now almost useless news server and Google... :-(
>
> If anyone has any sugestions for good, free, news servers I can use...
>
a free email address and looking at the threads in Google, which is
also where i usually post from [using the mailandnews email address].
Messages turn up faster in mailandnews and there are some messages
posted by some sources which don't show up in one or the other or
possibly, for all i know, both. Good luck!
Aaron
> I've seen the deck, and it gets really expensive, especially since all it
> was taking down were weenies, since the fatties it went up against could
> take care of themselves (maneuvers, grapples, etc.). Also stopping the blood
> flow onto the minions doing it made it crumple. I'm more excited about
> building a Tremere/!Tremere Elysium/Purchase Pact/Telepathic Tracking/2nd
> Round Thaum deck.
Mike, as an expert in the use of Illusions of the kindred, try this:
Bring out Francois Villon. Bleed. When he is blocked play Illusions
of the kindred, for who other then Francious Villon! Telepathic
track, Ripost, TT, Ripost, etc. Wow, you only spend 2 blood...they
die. Kinda funny.
Aaron
LSJ
> Except Riposte is a strike and doesn't happen instantly. IoTK isn't a
> strike and should happen instantly.
Yes, but unfortunately it wasn't written in a form to accomplish that
in light of TT.
GreySeer
> > Does the second combat still occur?
>
> No. Standard for all "enter combat" effects when one of the would-be
> combatants isn't ready.
Why not? Isn't the would-be combatant ( that we are about to enter combat
with ) the illusionary kindred who is actually ready at this time?
GreySeer
go-to-torpor-after-combat
> effect that it generates?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. UP sets up an effect that occurs
after combat ends, UP itself doesn't end combat. All of it's card text
resolves when it is played.
> This is nothing new.
> TT should obviously "trump" Majesty. And Form of Mist.
> If you have that, then, by consistency, you have: and Illusions of the
Kindred.
>
> Conceptually the IotK effect is a different beast - it should
thwart/negate
> the original combat altogether (see the Slave rule for an example). But it
> doesn't - it is implemented as a "combat ends" effect.
>
> So rather than come up with a bunch of piecemeal rulings as to what is
> evasion (and thwarted by TT) and what is negation (and not), the RT
settled
> on the single, card-text-based ruling you see now.
This is why I thought that trying to do anything else could prove
problematic. Now that I think about it, this is no precedent, we've seen
interrupt type effects before. Compare cards that contain the text "as it is
played" e.g. DI and Sudden Reversal.
LSJ
Mistake. If the Illusion tries to enter combat with a non-ready minion,
it fails. Otherwise, it succeeds.
Marty
> > > Mike Ooi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Legacy of Power:
> > > > Requires a ready Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle member. Only usable
> when
> > > > a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you control may
> play
> > > > this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends. Both
> vampires
> > > > engaged in combat go into torpor.
> > > >
> > > > When does it resolve?
> > >
> > > When played.
> >
> > Still am not quite following you. My question is, in what order are these
> > effects applied? If Telepathic Tracking is played in response to these
> > cards, how are they resolved?
> >
> > Vampire A is blocked by Vampire B.
> > Vampire C plays Legacy of Power.
> > Vampire A plays Telepathic Tracking.
> >
> > How are these effects applied? In this order?
>
> TT continues combat, suspending LoP's after-combat effects until after combat.
>
> > Again with Rotschreck. If Telepathic Tracking is played in response, how are
> > the effects applied?
>
> The same. The after combat effects occur after combat.
>
A while back I e-mailed this question to yourself:
Martin Cubberley wrote:
>
> Me and my mate are having a debate as to whether the superior of Telepathic
> Tracking provides some defence against Rotshreck. It states 'Only usable
> when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end (with no
> uncancelled press to continue). Combat does not end; another round starts.'
>
> He argues that because you are sent to torpor after combat has ended, that
> you are still considered ready for the purpose of this card and could
> therefore play it - presumably delaying the effects of Rotshreck.
> Can you explain how this works and settle this for us.
To which you replied:
He's got a fair point, except that you can't interrupt the effects of
Rotschreck. You play it, combat ends, and the target goes to torpor.
You can't interrupt that process after the combat ends step to play
of other card (like Psyche! or TT).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
I'm now totally cofused with what you've put in other points on this
thread... Does it work like this above, or what?!?!?
Martin
LSJ
> [conflicting answers re: Rotschreck and TT]
Rotschreck can be interrupted by TT.