Illusions of the Kindred
noodleboy
moment [and a god awful amount of animalism, but that's another
story]. Multiple decks running around a common theme - Illusions of
the Kindred with gabrin, pull out a illusionary vamp and then hose and
amaranth.
Now, SCE makes a wobbling mockery of this strategy most days. However,
not much else seems to work.
Illusions hoses Psyche and Telepathic Tracking, unless I'm much
mistaken. You don't get the chance to Grapple, nor rotschrek the real
vampire. If the Ravnos is reacting, you waste all your before range
cards only to have your opponent cancel them all by starting combat
over with an entirely new minion.
In terms of knock down, throw down combat, Illusions of the Kindred
seems to be the trump that trumps all trumps.
Other than SCE, is there any other way to deal with this card? I'm
drawing a blank...
noodleboy
Halcyan 2
>mistaken. You don't get the chance to Grapple, nor rotschrek the real
>vampire. If the Ravnos is reacting, you waste all your before range
>cards only to have your opponent cancel them all by starting combat
>over with an entirely new minion.
Illusions hoses Psyche! and any other effect that queues a new combat. And it
does hose Rotschreck also. It does not however hose Telepathic Tracking. TT
does not queue a new combat so it can be played in response to an Illusions of
the Kindred.
>In terms of knock down, throw down combat, Illusions of the Kindred
>seems to be the trump that trumps all trumps.
>
>Other than SCE, is there any other way to deal with this card? I'm
>drawing a blank...
Illusions of the Kindred is an extremely potent card. Note however that, as
mentioned before, Telepathic Tracking hoses it. And the next round, a new
Illusions can't be played either (since a combat is already queued).
Also, Illusions of the Kindred works only so long as you have a crypt left.
Each time you play it, you're using up a potential resource. Hey, maybe
Yong-Sun and Innocent Bystander aren't so useless after all... =P
Finally, Illusions tends to be a rather expensive proposition. Unless you're
using Gabrin + Path of Paradox, the 2 blood per Illusions can add up quickly.
And as most people already know, Ravnos tend to run out of blood pretty quickly
already.
Halcyan 2
salem
scrawled:
a gun?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
salem
scrawled:
>So, the local game seems to be plagued with thieving gypsies at the
superior terror frenzy/wave of lethargy/chiram's hold.
make illusions costs more than they can afford.
burn the path of paradox at first opportunity.
other blood denial/expense increasers.
Uriel
combat ends and before the rest of the text takes effect in order to
start a new combat with the original minion that played the Illusions?
Aris
Andrew Daley
salem
scrawled:
Sort of.
Yes for Telepathic Tracking (because it doesn't actually start a new
combat, see card text), No for Psyche!.
Illusions queues a new combat. If a combat is queued, you can't queue
another. You can continue the current combat, though.
from:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html
There is no room to play Psyche! (superior) between the time Illusions
of Kindred ends combat and when the new combat begins. So, when you
play Illusions of Kindred, Psyche! cannot be played. [LSJ 19971003]
from:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DE614DB.F7BED002%40white-wolf.com
Kenneth wrote:
>
> I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the
> following maybe not so clear questions.
> So just to get things straight:
> Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred?
No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat,
other
combat-starters cannot be used.
> If so is does IotK fizzle or is the Illusion simply delayed?
Moot.
> If delayed would the Illusion work if the minion that played it was
> burnt or placed in torpor?
Moot.
> It's probably only me but the card text on TT drives my brain into an
> unsolvable puzzle mode.
> What does "with no uncanceled press to continue" actually mean? Is this
> just another way of saying, can not be you used to cycle cards?
If combat is continuing already, you cannot use TT.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The part in the above about TT not being able to be used against
Illusions was overturned int he following:
From: LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Subject: Re: Q: Blissful Agony vs. various effects (+ some !Salubri
bashing
:)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:49:50 -0400
Organization: White Wolf, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3EC8E0FE...@white-wolf.com>
salem wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2003 08:56:06 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
> scrawled:
>
>
>>Stone wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>>So Telepathic Tracking can be played in the case of Blissful Agony, but not
>>>with Illusions of the Kindred?
>>
>>That ruling was in error, as indicated by the assignment of a
>>"combat-starter" descriptor to TT. TT isn't a combat-starter.
>>My apologies for the error.
>
>
> so.....TT CAN be played when someone tries to end combat with
> Illusions of the Kindred, but cards that want to start up a NEW combat
> (psyche, Fast reaction, Hidden Lurker, Status perfectus, etc) can NOT
> be played, because Illusions has already queued up a new combat to
> start?
>
> just trying to get this sorted out comprehensively.
> thanks.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
********
That should clear that up. :)
James Coupe
> >In terms of knock down, throw down combat, Illusions of the Kindred
> >seems to be the trump that trumps all trumps.
> >
> >Other than SCE, is there any other way to deal with this card? I'm
> >drawing a blank...
>
> superior terror frenzy/wave of lethargy/chiram's hold.
> make illusions costs more than they can afford.
> burn the path of paradox at first opportunity.
Blessing of Chaos (!Malks and NeoMalks) and PseudoBlindness (you need
to be playing Chimerstry yourself) are both options - potentially
quite useful ones, if you have something like Camarilla Vitae Slave,
Infernal Familiar et al knocking around, and have designed the deck
knowing you're likely to see Chimerstry nastiness.
They also have other benefits too, though neither are that great.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1F
What's the meaning when you speak with so much feeling? B457CA213D7E6
Is it over when you're sober? Is it junk? 68C3695D623D5D
arden mcbathan
> Other than SCE, is there any other way to deal with this card?
dawn op+weather control(only works if you're acting, though)
Timlagor
sonnenk...@aol.com says...
>
> dawn op+weather control(only works if you're acting, though)
>
I interpretted WC as dealing it's damage immediately before the range
step (ie after all before range cards) rather than when played but I
suspect you are right.
I'll go put some Skin of Nights in my Ravnos Illusions deck ;-P
Hollowboy
> >seems to be the trump that trumps all trumps.
> >
> >Other than SCE, is there any other way to deal with this card? I'm
> >drawing a blank...
>
> a gun?
>
> salem
> domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
The original incarnation of the deck Jason / Noodleboy is thinking of
was a potent ravnos rusher. Illusions, Drawing out the Beast, IG, bla
bla, Amaranth.
Thats *exactly* the deck I was trading for before I left Canberra. Now
I have about 15 Illusions, and I never bother playing the sodding
things... Melbourne doesn't really need two incarnations of the same
unstoppable, over-the-top combat deck.
Now this same Gypsy bitch plays his Ravnos as toolboxy, mildly
stealthy (nightmarish) bleeders, with Illusions, Drawing out the Beast
Carrion Crows, Trapparition, bla bla, Amaranth as the combat module
(with fewer Amaranths now, it seems). The thing that really makes it
tick, is that it doesn't care whether or not the combat works. All it
needs is the original Illusions card, and the rest is just a question
of how insane the rest of the combat will be.
I wish a gun *was* enough to survive against that, but Noodleboy is
talking about Illusions as a combat trump, rather than as a mere
combat ends card, so a gun would just makes your minion's death more
expensive.
On top of that, guns get hosed a fair bit here, with red-hot DOTB
action, and everyone still with fond memories of how good Canine Horde
was in the Hazimel storyline. Anyone with ani still includes 1 CH, I
think. I know I do :-)
Hollowboy
> mentioned before, Telepathic Tracking hoses it. And the next round, a new
> Illusions can't be played either (since a combat is already queued).
>
Just to check, does it go like this:
Round 1:
Gabrin Plays Illusions, pulling up Ivan K, the beefy 10 cap gypsy.
Your vampire, lets call him 'Chump', plays TT.
...the result is that combat continues between Chump and Gabrin, and
queues a combat between Chump and Ivan. Yeah?
If that's true, I can see a couple of ways it could pan out:
--Bad scenario:
After the TT, your chump hits Gabrin for 12 million aggravated damage.
Gabrin plays Carrion Crows + Skin of Steel, leaving your chump
somewhat bruised, and out of combat cards.
The chump then fights Ivan. Trap, beat, amaranth. Chump is burned.
--Good scenario:
Your minion sends Gabrin to torpor despite fortitude, (either via
Rotschreck or Rowan Ring, I'm thinking).
Your chump then fights Ivan. Chump strikes combat ends to get out
painlessly.
Fairly easily do-able with AUS pro, I'm thinking - TT, rotschreck,
Earth Meld. Lazverinus or Omayah are obvious picks.
...so I'm not disputing that TT *can* be an Illusions hoser, just
commenting that it needs either a good dose of luck or exactly the
right minion and support cards to get the job done.
The other hoser I can think of is the Dawn Op / Weather Control
jobbie.
> Also, Illusions of the Kindred works only so long as you have a crypt left.
> Each time you play it, you're using up a potential resource. Hey, maybe
> Yong-Sun and Innocent Bystander aren't so useless after all... =P
>
The illusions deck Noodleboy is referring to uses 16 vampires in it's
crypt (and I'm guessing that he would use more, if he had more copies
of Gabrin).
> Finally, Illusions tends to be a rather expensive proposition. Unless you're
> using Gabrin + Path of Paradox, the 2 blood per Illusions can add up quickly.
> And as most people already know, Ravnos tend to run out of blood pretty quickly
> already.
Gabrin is a *very* busy boy in these decks. But even when paying full
cost, if you pay 6 blood to make 3 illusions with a midcap, and that
results in 1 burn and 1 torpor, that's still great value for the
Illusionist.
Hollowboy
> mentioned before, Telepathic Tracking hoses it. And the next round, a new
> Illusions can't be played either (since a combat is already queued).
>
--Bad scenario:
--Good scenario:
> Also, Illusions of the Kindred works only so long as you have a crypt left.
> Each time you play it, you're using up a potential resource. Hey, maybe
> Yong-Sun and Innocent Bystander aren't so useless after all... =P
>
The illusions deck Noodleboy is referring to uses 16 vampires in it's
crypt (and I'm guessing that he would use more, if he had more copies
of Gabrin).
> Finally, Illusions tends to be a rather expensive proposition. Unless you're
> using Gabrin + Path of Paradox, the 2 blood per Illusions can add up quickly.
> And as most people already know, Ravnos tend to run out of blood pretty quickly
> already.
Gabrin is a *very* busy boy in these decks. But even when paying full
LSJ
>>Illusions of the Kindred is an extremely potent card. Note however that, as
>>mentioned before, Telepathic Tracking hoses it. And the next round, a new
>>Illusions can't be played either (since a combat is already queued).
No. No combat is queued at that point (the IotK combat was dissolved by the
play of the TT. The next round, a new IotK can be played.
> That is interesting. I'm a little sad I traded all mine away...
>
> Just to check, does it go like this:
> Round 1:
> Gabrin Plays Illusions, pulling up Ivan K, the beefy 10 cap gypsy.
> Your vampire, lets call him 'Chump', plays TT.
>
> ...the result is that combat continues between Chump and Gabrin, and
> queues a combat between Chump and Ivan. Yeah?
Round 1:
Gabrin plays IotK. As IotK attempts to end combat, so Chump plays TT.
Combat does not end, so the rest of IotK is dissolved. Combat continues
to round two of Chump vs. Gabrin.
No one ever goes looking for the bottom crypt card, so no one sees Ivan.
thegroovyguru
The 1st illusion version I had of the “oh I hate f**ken
pikey’s”is deck was a Ravnos Potence with Burning
wrath’s, Torn/s/Posts, Drawing out the Bitch, Grapples, and
Amaranths etc….It had multiple copies of fat boy slim Ivan
Krenyenko, Tereza Rostas, Vaclav and it stared 3 copies of the agg
bitch from the bowels of Hell; weight unknown, parts
unknown…..”Big bad brutal Basilia”..sporting the
sharpest claws in the world of darkness I also tried placing Xavier,
Karsh…but I preferred Bas...
Works very well in combat intense environment, but it there’s
lots of ways of getting around it, strike combat ends cheese, and
heavy stealth bleed, ect….Traps + Drawing out the Bitch +
Carrion Crows + Aid from Bats usually draws out most fortitude cards
quickly obviously with press’s from both Bats & Traps…then
you munch on a monkey …like Tariq for example, he was delicious
hey Noodles?…Oh yes you fear the illusions my friend, and
rightly so my old nemesis …for when your being eaten by a
figment of your imagination fear is all you have..
Anyway enough talking turkey here it is….
Deck Name: “Oh I hate those f**ken
Pikey’s!”..Part2(“do ya likes Dags?”)Title and
quote taken from that groovy movie “Snatch”..I recommend
watching that movie in Sub titles, so you can understand what the F**K
the“Pikey’s” are saying…
The 6 restore are in there for 2 reasons, to help pay for the
illusions, but also for week of nightmares, so you don’t have to
thieve blood of ya fellow Pikey’s....
Gabrin x3
Etienne Fauberge x2
Natalia x1
Sarisha Veliku x1
Vaclav Petalengro x2
Joaquina Amya x2
Khalil Ravana x1
Danielle Diron x1
Ivan Krenyenko x1
Total: 14
Master:
Park Hunting Ground 1
Week of Nightmares 2
The Path of Paradox 3
Blood Doll 4
Total 10
Combat
Illusions of the Kindred 10
Drawing out the Beast 7
Carrion Crows 7
Aid from Bats 7
Apparition 7
Trap 6
Ameranth 4
Total 48
Actions:
Raven Spy 2
Restore 6
Total 8
Action Mod
Fata Morgana 8
Total: 8
Reactions
Draba 5
Forced Awake 7
Cats Guidance 4
Total: 16
Deck Total: 90
David Cherryholmes
> Gabrin x3
> Etienne Fauberge x2
> Natalia x1
> Sarisha Veliku x1
> Vaclav Petalengro x2
> Joaquina Amya x2
> Khalil Ravana x1
> Danielle Diron x1
> Ivan Krenyenko x1
The crypt seems unnecessarily large. The deck looks like it will function
just fine with ani/chi. You've still got the trap, you still DotB to
prevent the press to end, you still apparition to hang in the trap
painlessly, you still Crow for six damage. Most times, you kinda want to
play IotK at inferior anyway to minimize the amount of blood you're
handing out there to taste, so Illusions still plays fine. Of course
everything's better at superior, but the idea is, you get your deck up and
running first, then haul out Gabrin, *then* all hell breaks loose. ;)
I'd just trim it back a bit and axe Ivan, since you have no equipment,
nor are you doing anything with potence. I'd drop one copy of Etienne,
and either one copy of Joquina or one of Vaclav. I'd replace them with
Spleen, Anka, and Sennuwy. That gives you a 75% chance of a first turn
vampire, and the flexibility to choose how you open your game.
> Total: 14
> Master:
> Park Hunting Ground 1
> Week of Nightmares 2
> The Path of Paradox 3
> Blood Doll 4
Good masters. Maybe squeeze in a Storage Annex for the Week? It's worked
well for me. The Coven is your wet dream, or should be.
> Combat
> Illusions of the Kindred 10
> Drawing out the Beast 7
> Carrion Crows 7
> Aid from Bats 7
> Apparition 7
> Trap 6
> Ameranth 4
I would ditch the Aid from Bats entirely. Who cares if an Illusory guy is
hitting with hands or striking with crows? It may matter when fighting
full, big guys, but that doesn't seem to last very long. Apparition
covers this, and they can't press out of the lone environmental press from
Trap. I would replace with one extra copy each of DotB, CC, and
Apparition, and add two more traps to make everything but Illusions a
nice, even, eight. This frees up two card slots, which cover the two
masters I suggested.
> Actions:
> Raven Spy 2
> Restore 6
Drop two Restorations for two more birds. You really need to get the
static intercept to make Draba go, plus they're just good. I think you
can live without the Restorations, but it sounds like they are working for
you.
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
thegroovyguru
nor are you doing anything with potence. I'd drop one copy of
Etienne,
and either one copy of Joquina or one of Vaclav. I'd replace them
with
Spleen, Anka, and Sennuwy. That gives you a 75% chance of a first
turn
vampire, and the flexibility to choose how you open your game.
Yes point taken, I think I will dump a few fatties boom bars for a
couple of feather weights…
Good masters. Maybe squeeze in a Storage Annex for the Week? It's
worked
well for me.
Storage Annex, yes I think I will that is a very good idea…as I
find I am usually hanging onto to one for half the game waiting for
the right time to play it. Even though nearly every time I play Ravnos
there is usually my pray or predator hanging on for dear life a sudden
in their lil hands just waiting for me to play the Week of Nightmares
(which out of interest when Week of Nighmares is played down here in
Melbourne it is sung out in a heavy metal high pitch vibrato
song.."weeeeeeeeeek of Nightmarrrrrrrrrrrrrrres!".....But Storage Shed
is a goer, thanks mannn...
The Coven is your wet dream, or should be.
Well I disagree with you there, as one of the strengths of this deck
is to reduce the blood on my pray and predator so I can much with
Amaranth.But did think of putting in the Coven in, but I have seen it
played in our group and it just helps out your prey and predator and
everyone else for that matter.But I think I will try squeezing in a
Giants Blood in again,a few Life in the Cities, and possibly a Disco
tech. I did have 5 Tastes in there once but never got to use them as
my illusions do just about all of the fighting.But the restores and
Paths seems to work well enough.
I would ditch the Aid from Bats entirely. Who cares if an Illusory
guy is
hitting with hands or striking with crows? It may matter when
fighting
full, big guys, but that doesn't seem to last very long.
I have tried other combos like Scorpion stings, song in the dark, but
I find Bats seems to work best in our lil coliseum . I will keep the
Bats as this has several obvious functions for this deck:
1)Hopefully Keep my Real vamps at long range .
2)An extra press when I don’t have a trap in my hand, and is
obviously nice to continue C/Cs and DOB. Optional press to end if I
wish to, as I may be up against some monster combat wombat I
don’t want another round with, I may not have an Apparition in
hand, or through cycling may have pick up another iotk and want to go
again. An Optional press when I have played a trap with no DOB and
opponent presses to end.
3)I go through Bats reasonably quickly, so hopefully I get the week of
Nightmares out and start slapping for two.
4)I like a lil extra ranged kick in the "happy sacks" against "set the
range to long" decks…Yes I know that C/Cs and DoB deals with
long range but extra press and 1R peck is ok by me too…
Actions: Raven Spy 2: Restore 6 Drop two Restorations for two more
birds. You really need to get the static intercept to make Draba go,
plus they're just good. I think you can live without the Restorations,
but it sounds like they are working for you.
I take you point on really need to get the static intercept to make
Draba go, and will squeeze in a few more Ravens.
I really do not think I can live with out the restorations as my Paths
seem to get destroyed quite quickly, and I find it too hard to defend
off both pray, predator, cross table smegga’s etc.. Also as
mentioned before I really need them for when I bring out the "Week" as
my Vamps are usually low on blood..
But thanks again for your advice Mate, Keep rockin..