Surprising hosers...
reyda
and i found some surprisingly strong and unexpected hosers =)
1- Follower of Set + free states rant is one of my worst nightmare. The
simplest hoser is : Invitation accepted. Transform the serpent to camarilla
vampires and they can't call the FSR vote anymore =) Everyone on the table
will let the vote pass after the first harmful FSR =D
2-Agaitas monkey decks, which enter combat with you and play lotsa card to
deplete cards from your library... Play Camarilla threat. Each time your
predator takes a card from you, in addition of clogging his hand he will be
forced to discard at the cost of 1 or more pool per card =D
Does it also hose the discard effect from Dreams of the Sphinx ?? =)
reyda
jspektr
> 2-Agaitas monkey decks, which enter combat with you and play lotsa card to
> deplete cards from your library... Play Camarilla threat. Each time your
> predator takes a card from you, in addition of clogging his hand he will be
> forced to discard at the cost of 1 or more pool per card =D
> Does it also hose the discard effect from Dreams of the Sphinx ?? =)
Camarilla Threat's text:
"Political Card-Worth 1 Vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. If
this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah
discarding a card during his or her discard phase burns one pool. Any
vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth
political action."
Agaitas's power would not come into effect, as the Camarilla Threat
only counts cards discarded during the discard phase. The wording also
seems to suggest it may be 1 pool regardless of how many cards are
discarded, instead of 1 pool per card.
JSpektr
reyda
:: "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:: news:<3d739212$0$8650$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
::
::
::: 2-Agaitas monkey decks, which enter combat with you and play
::: lotsa card to deplete cards from your library... Play Camarilla
::: threat. Each time your predator takes a card from you, in
::: addition of clogging his hand he will be forced to discard at the
::: cost of 1 or more pool per card =D Does it also hose the discard
::: effect from Dreams of the Sphinx ?? =)
::
:: Camarilla Threat's text:
:: Agaitas's power would not come into effect, as the Camarilla Threat
:: only counts cards discarded during the discard phase.
Did i say something different ?
:: The wording
:: also seems to suggest it may be 1 pool regardless of how many
:: cards are discarded, instead of 1 pool per card.
i think the wording makes you pay for each card.
please provide correct answers ;)
RonnieE
> "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d739212$0$8650$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
Reyda wrote:
"1- Follower of Set + free states rant is one of my worst nightmare.
The
simplest hoser is : Invitation accepted. Transform the serpent to
camarilla
vampires and they can't call the FSR vote anymore =) Everyone on the
table
will let the vote pass after the first harmful FSR =D"
Thats really good thinking. I love doing FSR and then Banishment to
put the vampire in his place, but by your solution that would be
screwed from the time the vote passes. Easy one card solution that
takes minimum deck space, my hat´s off to you.
Ronnie
VRAGOZAKAS
> I was looking for a way to resist those incredibly powerful decks...
> and i found some surprisingly strong and unexpected hosers =)
>
> 1- Follower of Set + free states rant is one of my worst nightmare. The
> simplest hoser is : Invitation accepted. Transform the serpent to camarilla
> vampires and they can't call the FSR vote anymore =) Everyone on the table
> will let the vote pass after the first harmful FSR =D
YOU ARE A GENIUS! REALLY!
> 2-Agaitas monkey decks, which enter combat with you and play lotsa card to
> deplete cards from your library... Play Camarilla threat. Each time your
> predator takes a card from you, in addition of clogging his hand he will be
> forced to discard at the cost of 1 or more pool per card =D
> Does it also hose the discard effect from Dreams of the Sphinx ?? =)
MMMH, NO...THERE ISN'T ANY CONNECTION BETWEEN AGAITAS AND CAMARILLA THREAT.
> reyda
MANDI, VRAGOZAKAS
Halcyan 2
>simplest hoser is : Invitation accepted. Transform the serpent to camarilla
>vampires and they can't call the FSR vote anymore =) Everyone on the table
>will let the vote pass after the first harmful FSR =D
Very nice indeed Reyda! I'm very impressed by your creativity! =)
>2-Agaitas monkey decks, which enter combat with you and play lotsa card to
>deplete cards from your library... Play Camarilla threat. Each time your
>predator takes a card from you, in addition of clogging his hand he will be
>forced to discard at the cost of 1 or more pool per card =D
>Does it also hose the discard effect from Dreams of the Sphinx ?? =)
Contrary to what some of the others are blathering about, you are right that
(unless they have some other discard mechanism like Dreams/Barrens), if Agaitas
causes them to draw a useless card, they will have to lose pool to Camarilla
Threat to get rid of it.
In general, it wouldn't affect other discard mechanisms (i.e. Dreams of the
Sphinx) *unless* it was used during the discard phase (compare a similar
situation to being able to use discarded Dreams card with Rachel Brandywine's
ability during your discard).
Halcyan 2
Joshua Duffin
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020903155804...@mb-mv.aol.com...
[re Camarilla Threat]
> In general, it wouldn't affect other discard mechanisms (i.e. Dreams of
the
> Sphinx) *unless* it was used during the discard phase (compare a similar
> situation to being able to use discarded Dreams card with Rachel
Brandywine's
> ability during your discard).
Does it apply to Dreams? The Barrens, if used during discard, yes.
But Dreams discards-down-to-hand-size occur at the end of the turn,
which I thought wasn't exactly during the discard phase. I'm not
sure though... LSJ?
Josh
sphinxy
CurtAdams
>1- Follower of Set + free states rant is one of my worst nightmare. The
>simplest hoser is : Invitation accepted. Transform the serpent to camarilla
>vampires and they can't call the FSR vote anymore =) Everyone on the
>table will let the vote pass after the first harmful FSR =D"
Geez, Reyda, you faced my FOSFSR deck in LA for the mem day
tournaments and I beat you by the barest of margins (something
like 2 pool, wasn't it?) If that's one of your worst nightmares
you must have very peaceful sleep! I'd much rather face such
a deck than weenie dom, weenie pre, IG rush, Tzimiscze wall,
prince bloat, and probably several other decks as well.
BTW, the table isn't necessarily going to support the IA. The
player's table allies will not want to see it completely shut
down most of the time. Plus Rant decks are very good at
bargaining for votes...
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
reyda
:: Reyda wrote:
::: 1- Follower of Set + free states rant is one of my worst
::: nightmare. The simplest hoser is : Invitation accepted. Transform
::: the serpent to camarilla vampires and they can't call the FSR
::: vote anymore =) Everyone on the table will let the vote pass
::: after the first harmful FSR =D"
::
:: Geez, Reyda, you faced my FOSFSR deck in LA for the mem day
:: tournaments and I beat you by the barest of margins (something
:: like 2 pool, wasn't it?)
yes ! it really was a nightmare, since if i recall correctly i was playing
!gangrel .44 deck and i really needed the blood on my vamps =)
:: If that's one of your worst nightmares
:: you must have very peaceful sleep! I'd much rather face such
:: a deck than weenie dom, weenie pre, IG rush, Tzimiscze wall,
:: prince bloat, and probably several other decks as well.
this !gangrel .44 horde deck has proven to be very efficient against weenie
dom (lot of bum's rush) weenie pre (lots of psyche), Ig rush (lots of
maneuvers backuping .44) and even tzimisce wall since i do intercept them
and play rotschreck myself to their big surprise =) the only exception is
voters, which are quite a pain in the neck, especially voters at stealth.
(my anti bleed defense being sport bikes and pack tactics...)
I had a hard time fighting against you =)
:: BTW, the table isn't necessarily going to support the IA. The
:: player's table allies will not want to see it completely shut
:: down most of the time. Plus Rant decks are very good at
:: bargaining for votes...
After two or three succesful FSR, the table can feel hopeless, especially
other vote decks who see their princes or priscus having half or none of
their votes. The first time a titled vamp is hit by FSR, he will understand
you give him a easy way to counter an otherwise unstoppable strategy =)
Calling FSR + bewitching oration + Voter cap can burn 5 or 6 blood on other
vampire, gaining blood and pool in the process. That should bug the table
fairly rapidly ;)
:: Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
:: "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
hope to play again with you =)
reyda
LSJ
> jspektr wrote:
> :: The wording
> :: also seems to suggest it may be 1 pool regardless of how many
> :: cards are discarded, instead of 1 pool per card.
>
> i think the wording makes you pay for each card.
Pay one for each discard phase in which you discard (one or more) cards.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
>
> "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020903155804...@mb-mv.aol.com...
>
> [re Camarilla Threat]
>
> > In general, it wouldn't affect other discard mechanisms (i.e. Dreams of
> the
> > Sphinx) *unless* it was used during the discard phase (compare a similar
> > situation to being able to use discarded Dreams card with Rachel
> Brandywine's
> > ability during your discard).
>
> Does it apply to Dreams?
If you make a wish to get +2 hand size during your turn, yes (since you
will have to discard down during your discard phase when your hand size
returns to normal).
If you wish for +2 hand size during someone else's turn, no, since you're
not discarding the extra cards in *your* discard phase.
> The Barrens, if used during discard, yes.
> But Dreams discards-down-to-hand-size occur at the end of the turn,
> which I thought wasn't exactly during the discard phase. I'm not
> sure though... LSJ?
It's gotta be sometime.
It ends up being your discard phase.
Raille
>
>> The Barrens, if used during discard, yes.
>>But Dreams discards-down-to-hand-size occur at the end of the turn,
>>which I thought wasn't exactly during the discard phase. I'm not
>>sure though... LSJ?
>
>
> It's gotta be sometime.
> It ends up being your discard phase.
>
Just another reason for an official End of Turn Phase.
Every I've played with considers the End of turn requirements to happen
AFter the discard Phase.
So are you making Official errata to the effect that the end of turn
happens in the Discard Phase, and if So can you order the discard phase
to suit your needs?
Raille
reyda
> reyda wrote:
>> jspektr wrote:
>>>> The wording
>>>> also seems to suggest it may be 1 pool regardless of how many
>>>> cards are discarded, instead of 1 pool per card.
>>
>> i think the wording makes you pay for each card.
>
> Pay one for each discard phase in which you discard (one or more)
> cards.
so stacking them is useless despite the ambiguous wording... =/
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >
> >> The Barrens, if used during discard, yes.
> >>But Dreams discards-down-to-hand-size occur at the end of the turn,
> >>which I thought wasn't exactly during the discard phase. I'm not
> >>sure though... LSJ?
> >
> >
> > It's gotta be sometime.
> > It ends up being your discard phase.
> >
>
> Just another reason for an official End of Turn Phase.
>
> Every I've played with considers the End of turn requirements to happen
> AFter the discard Phase.
If there's any basis for that consideration in the rules, please cite it.
> So are you making Official errata to the effect that the end of turn
> happens in the Discard Phase, and if So can you order the discard phase
> to suit your needs?
No. No errata needed. The end of your turn is the discard phase.
After the discard phase, it is no longer your turn, per the rules.
LSJ
Useless except for the number of referendums that must be passed
before the effect is ended.
LSJ
>
> reyda wrote:
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > > reyda wrote:
> > >> jspektr wrote:
> > >>>> The wording
> > >>>> also seems to suggest it may be 1 pool regardless of how many
> > >>>> cards are discarded, instead of 1 pool per card.
> > >>
> > >> i think the wording makes you pay for each card.
> > >
> > > Pay one for each discard phase in which you discard (one or more)
> > > cards.
> >
> > so stacking them is useless despite the ambiguous wording... =/
>
> Useless except for the number of referendums that must be passed
> before the effect is ended.
... and except for the stacked pool loss, of course. (sorry -
still sleep deprived from Dragoncon).
Multiple discards in the same discard phase won't cost extra pool,
but multiple Camarilla Threat cards in play will stack.
Raille
> Just another reason for an official End of Turn Phase.
>
> AFter the discard Phase.
>If there's any basis for that consideration in the rules, please cite it.
Well a Host of games seem to do very well with official end of turn
phases, even when they have zero game effects, unlike VTES.
Examples:
Luftwaffe:
Q. American Playeer announces the end of his turn. German player begins.
Scrabble:
2. A player completes the turn by counting and announcing the score.
Monopoly:
(a bit vague) After completed play, the turn passes to the left.
Russian Front:
9.1 END OF TURN RECORD PHASE. At the end of every turn, advance the
turn units on the Current date chart.
Gettysburg '77:
Phase 7. Move the turn marker to the next turn
The Battle of the Bulge
5.4 The Time marker is moved one space to the next turn.
And I can go on and on and on and on.
Vtes at one time ended a turn once you dropped a card in the ash heap.
Since its conception there has been the proverbial 'mission' (rules)
creap. There are now several cards that refer to the end of turn. The
original (and current) rules had you move directly to the next players
turn once you have discarded.
If I adhere to the printed rules, If I discard its player 'X's turn.
There is no interupt. However I need to untap cause of a leather jacket
or other effects at the end of the turn, I have to perform this prior to
discarding since that immediatly triggers the next player effects. I
cannot perform end of turn effects prior to discarding however, since my
turn is not over.
A simple addition under section 3. Playing the game as below cleans up
the potentially growning problem with end of turn cards.
6. End of Turn
also add section 9. End of Turn and rename current sections 10 and 11.
9. End of turn effects are performed, and turn proceeds to the next player.
> So are you making Official errata to the effect that the end of turn
> happens in the Discard Phase, and if So can you order the discard phase
> to suit your needs?
>No. No errata needed. The end of your turn is the discard phase.
After the discard phase, it is no longer your turn, per the rules.
Thats my point. I discard and fail to perform end of turn requirements,
thus forfeiting the game for illegal play.
Raille
LSJ
>
> Raille wrote:
> > Just another reason for an official End of Turn Phase.
> >
> > Everyone I've played with considers the End of turn requirements to
> happen
> > AFter the discard Phase.
>
> >If there's any basis for that consideration in the rules, please cite it.
>
> Well a Host of games seem to do very well with official end of turn
> phases, even when they have zero game effects, unlike VTES.
> Examples:
> Luftwaffe:
> Q. American Playeer announces the end of his turn. German player begins.
VTES has the same.
VTES player announces that she is done with her turn. Prey begins.
> Scrabble:
> 2. A player completes the turn by counting and announcing the score.
A VTES player completes the turn by finishing her discard phase.
> Monopoly:
> (a bit vague) After completed play, the turn passes to the left.
After a completed turn, the turn passes to the left.
> Russian Front:
> 9.1 END OF TURN RECORD PHASE. At the end of every turn, advance the
> turn units on the Current date chart.
?
Sounds like the untap phase, but I can't be sure.
> Gettysburg '77:
> Phase 7. Move the turn marker to the next turn
Turn passes to the left.
> The Battle of the Bulge
> 5.4 The Time marker is moved one space to the next turn.
>
> And I can go on and on and on and on.
With similar results, I suspect.
> Vtes at one time ended a turn once you dropped a card in the ash heap.
Citation?
> Since its conception there has been the proverbial 'mission' (rules)
> creap. There are now several cards that refer to the end of turn. The
> original (and current) rules had you move directly to the next players
> turn once you have discarded.
Citation?
> If I adhere to the printed rules, If I discard its player 'X's turn.
Citation to the printed rules?
> There is no interupt. However I need to untap cause of a leather jacket
> or other effects at the end of the turn, I have to perform this prior to
> discarding since that immediatly triggers the next player effects. I
> cannot perform end of turn effects prior to discarding however, since my
> turn is not over.
Not true. You can do them in the discard phase after discarding.
> A simple addition under section 3. Playing the game as below cleans up
> the potentially growning problem with end of turn cards.
> 6. End of Turn
>
> also add section 9. End of Turn and rename current sections 10 and 11.
>
> 9. End of turn effects are performed, and turn proceeds to the next player.
>
> > So are you making Official errata to the effect that the end of turn
> > happens in the Discard Phase, and if So can you order the discard phase
> > to suit your needs?
>
> >No. No errata needed. The end of your turn is the discard phase.
> After the discard phase, it is no longer your turn, per the rules.
Right. The end of your turn is your discard phase. Glad you're on board.
> Thats my point. I discard and fail to perform end of turn requirements,
> thus forfeiting the game for illegal play.
Hardly.
Mike McDonald
> >1- Follower of Set + free states rant is one of my worst nightmare. The
> >simplest hoser is : Invitation accepted. Transform the serpent to camarilla
> >vampires and they can't call the FSR vote anymore =) Everyone on the table
> >will let the vote pass after the first harmful FSR =D
>
> Very nice indeed Reyda! I'm very impressed by your creativity! =)
>
against combat decks - so I have Elysiums and the Ravnos and Assamite
join-the-camarilla cards in there too. Works a charm and makes people
laugh :-)
Halcyan 2
>
>Every I've played with considers the End of turn requirements to happen
>AFter the discard Phase.
>
>So are you making Official errata to the effect that the end of turn
>happens in the Discard Phase, and if So can you order the discard phase
>to suit your needs?
One of the trends of the Camarilla Edition is that many cards that used to
function at the end of your turn now happen during your discard phase. So the
discard phase is essentially the borderline to the literal end of your turn.
Metro Underground is the most obvious example. Also compare the wording of
Antonio Veradas compared to Gunther, Beast Lord (it uses the "during your
discard phase" wording instead of "at the end of your turn").
Halcyan 2
Halcyan 2
>against combat decks - so I have Elysiums and the Ravnos and Assamite
>join-the-camarilla cards in there too. Works a charm and makes people
>laugh :-)
I'm thinking a Malkavian Presence deck with the Elysium. In addition to
Giovanni Acceptance, Ravnos Acceptance, Revocation of Tyre, and Invitation
Accepted, you can also Derange vampires into Camarilla Malks to protect you!
=)
Halcyan 2
reyda
Interesting but i doubt you can tap Elysium Thrice to avoid three
consecutive assamite rushes =)
(reminder : Elysium -the arboretum is unique =) )
Raille
>> > So are you making Official errata to the effect that the end of turn
>> > happens in the Discard Phase, and if So can you order the discard phase
>> > to suit your needs?
>>
>>No. No errata needed. The end of your turn is the discard phase.
>>After the discard phase, it is no longer your turn, per the rules.
>
> Right. The end of your turn is your discard phase. Glad you're on board.
>
to place proper '>'s
>
>>Thats my point. I discard and fail to perform end of turn requirements,
>>thus forfeiting the game for illegal play.
>
>
> Hardly.
>
Glad to hear that. I'm just stating we have cards that discribe action
you perform during your discard phase and s small but growing group of
cards that make reference to the end of the turn.
Last Question, since I don't want to go on endlessly about when a turn
is over.
Can you order the end of turn activities as you wish? or at least until
there is other official rulings to the contrary.
Raille
LSJ
> Can you order the end of turn activities as you wish?
Yes.
Joshua Duffin
"Raille" <rai...@mich.com> wrote in message
news:3D7672C0...@mich.com...
> Glad to hear that. I'm just stating we have cards that discribe action
> you perform during your discard phase and s small but growing group of
> cards that make reference to the end of the turn.
I think it's actually "small and dwindling". The cards I've seen
from Camarilla Edition so far tend to use "end of discard phase" or
"during discard phase" where they used to use "end of turn". As
Halcyan pointed out, Metro Underground is a good example.
Josh
you got your end of turn in my discard phase!
Raille
>
> you got your end of turn in my discard phase!
>
Damn, and I thought I got my end of turn in my discard phase. This
really changes my play.
Raille
Joshua Duffin
Yes, you will find it difficult to oust your prey when your turn
ends before it has even begun. :-)
Josh
the cheating phase never ends