disarm+CE
Henrik Isaksson
dodge, blur, strike for 1, strike Majesty and untap and then disarm to send
the opposing minion to torpor while still being untapped?
/henrik isaksson
LSJ
Yes. Disarm is played "at the end of a round".
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Henrik Isaksson
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:3D356731...@white-wolf.com...
> Henrik Isaksson wrote:
> >
> > Can I play disarm after either minion in combat has striked CE? I.e. I
play
> > dodge, blur, strike for 1, strike Majesty and untap and then disarm to
send
> > the opposing minion to torpor while still being untapped?
>
> Yes. Disarm is played "at the end of a round".
>
> --
Cool! Can I amaranth/decapitate the unlycky victim too?
/Henrik Isaksson
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> skrev i
> > Henrik Isaksson wrote:
> > > Can I play disarm after either minion in combat has striked CE? I.e. I play
> > > dodge, blur, strike for 1, strike Majesty and untap and then disarm to send
> > > the opposing minion to torpor while still being untapped?
> > Yes. Disarm is played "at the end of a round".
Yes.
Naram
> Henrik Isaksson wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> skrev i
> > > Henrik Isaksson wrote:
> > > > Can I play disarm after either minion in combat has striked CE? I.e. I play
> > > > dodge, blur, strike for 1, strike Majesty and untap and then disarm to send
> > > > the opposing minion to torpor while still being untapped?
> > > Yes. Disarm is played "at the end of a round".
I thought "end of combat" was specifically reffering to the press
phase, so if combat is ended due to a strike or one the opposing
minion going to torpor, you can't play disarm (since its a combat card
and combat is now >over<).
> > Cool! Can I amaranth/decapitate the unlycky victim too?
>
> Yes.
maybe our playgroup was not using disarm corectly, but even with the
more restrictive interpertation it was the most powerfull card in the
game, IMO. With all due respect to Chris Burger's quest for cardboard
consistency (hey, who can resist a cheap shot? :P), this maybe the
case where a text interpertation to limit the card is a good idea for
play balance.
The look on a newbies' face when my Emerson Bridges plays an immortal
grapple, punches for one, prevents their damage and then plays a
single card to disable thier vampire for no appernt cost is not one
which expresses great enjoyment of the game. It gets even worse when
you have to explain that this well worn peace of cardboard that you
just played against them is worth about $30 and they will probably not
be able get a set of 5-6 for their deck any time in the near future.
I realise that WW has been trying to expand the viability of combat in
the game as a design principle, and I greatly enjoyed that so far.
However the expanded usability of disarm places it firmly in the
pulled fangs abuse range.
Naram
James Coupe
No. "End of combat" is specifically referring to the "end of combat".
The end of combat can occur at many places during a combat. (Before
range, damage resolution during a strike, immediately as strikes resolve
etc.)
--
James Coupe
PGP 0x5D623D5D You don't need to hear it but I'm dried up
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 and sick to death of love.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D
LSJ
>
> In message <cbc63db8.02071...@posting.google.com>, Naram
> <stor...@msn.com> writes:
> >I thought "end of combat" was specifically reffering to the press
> >phase,
>
> No. "End of combat" is specifically referring to the "end of combat".
>
> The end of combat can occur at many places during a combat. (Before
> range, damage resolution during a strike, immediately as strikes resolve
> etc.)
Correct. "During the press step" is the text used when trying to refer
to the press step.
Joshua Duffin
"Naram" <stor...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:cbc63db8.02071...@posting.google.com...
>
> maybe our playgroup was not using disarm corectly, but even with the
> more restrictive interpertation it was the most powerfull card in the
> game, IMO.
I wouldn't say it's even close. Conditioning, Giant's Blood,
5th Tradition, 2nd Tradition are all better, I'd say. Hey Ben,
back me up here. ;-)
Sending someone to torpor for "I prevented your damage" or "I
hit you for more than 1" is somewhat harsh, yes. But in the
end it only costs them 2 blood (for a rescue) unless you can
follow it up with diablerie or something, which is generally
(a) blockable and (b) self-balanced by the Blood Hunt, normally.
> The look on a newbies' face when my Emerson Bridges plays an immortal
> grapple, punches for one, prevents their damage and then plays a
> single card to disable thier vampire for no appernt cost is not one
> which expresses great enjoyment of the game. It gets even worse when
> you have to explain that this well worn peace of cardboard that you
> just played against them is worth about $30 and they will probably not
> be able get a set of 5-6 for their deck any time in the near future.
How do they feel when you Sensory Deprive all their vampires, or
Brainwash them until they can't get out a single vampire? There
are lots of ways to screw someone to the point where they can't
do anything fun. Unfortunately, perhaps, but it seems to be part
of the game.
> I realise that WW has been trying to expand the viability of combat in
> the game as a design principle, and I greatly enjoyed that so far.
> However the expanded usability of disarm places it firmly in the
> pulled fangs abuse range.
Pulled Fangs doesn't even require a discipline. The discipline
requirement probably makes Disarm fairly balanced. Annoying and
very strong, yes, but not unacceptable. All IMO, of course.
Josh
unarmed
Tim Eijpe
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> skrev i
> > > Henrik Isaksson wrote:
> > > > Can I play disarm after either minion in combat has striked CE? I.e. I play
> > > > dodge, blur, strike for 1, strike Majesty and untap and then disarm to send
> > > > the opposing minion to torpor while still being untapped?
> > > Yes. Disarm is played "at the end of a round".
> > Cool! Can I amaranth/decapitate the unlycky victim too?
>
Henrik. IF you getr that combo in your hands and are able to play it,
you will have my eternal respect. Still sounds cool though LOL
Derek Ray
time...@mail.com (Tim Eijpe) mumbled something about:
Don't laugh. I made a deck based around Matteus:
Enhanced Senses to block
Sideslip to dodge
Blur for two additional
Fleshcraft for -2 stealth
Majesty to untap
Expensive on blood; large on hilarious. Once you got the tin cans tied
to your vampire's ass, my Auspex weenies had little to no problem
managing to block you.... not to mention anyone else on the table,
should you decide to take (D) actions.
Low on ousting power, just because I didn't have room to fit in "kill
stuff" cards. But damned funny.
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
Halcyan 2
>phase, so if combat is ended due to a strike or one the opposing
>minion going to torpor, you can't play disarm (since its a combat card
>and combat is now >over<).
See, here's the part where I say "told you so!"
>maybe our playgroup was not using disarm corectly,
Well, at least *I* was trying to...not that anyone ever bothers to listen to
me...
You know, come to think of it, I have one more question for LSJ:
[RANT]
How the frell do you get other people in your playgroup (or at tournaments, or
at whereever) to actually listen to you? Time and time again I tell people how
things officially work but they just ignore me or overrule me. Then afterwards,
I end up sending giant e-mails confirming all the things I said before with
official rulings but the next time I see them, they *still* won't listen to me
about the next issue. As much fun as it is saying "I told you so" and rubbing
it in people's faces, idealistically, people would actually listen to me the
first time so I wouldn't even have to say the eventual "I told you so"...
[/RANT]
Halcyan 2
Halfway between neglected and pissed off
Flux
> You know, come to think of it, I have one more question for LSJ:
>
> [RANT]
>
> How the frell do you get other people in your playgroup (or at tournaments, or
> at whereever) to actually listen to you? Time and time again I tell people how
> things officially work but they just ignore me or overrule me. Then afterwards,
> I end up sending giant e-mails confirming all the things I said before with
> official rulings but the next time I see them, they *still* won't listen to me
> about the next issue. As much fun as it is saying "I told you so" and rubbing
> it in people's faces, idealistically, people would actually listen to me the
> first time so I wouldn't even have to say the eventual "I told you so"...
>
> [/RANT]
Obviously LSJ should have little problem in getting his rulings
accepted, so I don't know if he's the right person to be asking this ;)
I got somewhat of a reputation for making good rulings by simply knowing
the rules in detail over a long period of time. I've forgot much of it
by now, since I found out that most rulings never come up and there's no
point in filling my head with near-useless information, but the
reputation remains. :)
I remember once playing a newbie and at some point pointing out
something he was doing wrong (very obviously), but he insisted he wasn't
wrong, until he said defiantly 'How can you be sure, are you a
tournament judge?', to which I answered 'Well actually, yes, I am' -
'Oh...'
I suppose you could carry around a list of current rulings, so that
whenever something came up you could point it out. That would help
getting your 'new' rulings accepted, since other people will remember
you as 'the guy who always carries all the rules around, so he should
know them pretty well'. :)
...of course, there will always be some people who'll keep disputing
your rulings (hi Luis), no matter what you do.
If your group is filled with those, you're SOL. :(
Flux
Halcyan 2
>>
>> How the frell do you get other people in your playgroup (or at tournaments,
>or
>> at whereever) to actually listen to you? Time and time again I tell people
>how
>> things officially work but they just ignore me or overrule me. Then
>afterwards,
>> I end up sending giant e-mails confirming all the things I said before with
>> official rulings but the next time I see them, they *still* won't listen to
>me
>> about the next issue. As much fun as it is saying "I told you so" and
>rubbing
>> it in people's faces, idealistically, people would actually listen to me
>the
>> first time so I wouldn't even have to say the eventual "I told you so"...
>>
>> [/RANT]
>
>Obviously LSJ should have little problem in getting his rulings
>accepted, so I don't know if he's the right person to be asking this ;)
Ha ha. I was just wondering if there was an official way to get people to
actually listen to you when you're right (especially the judges at
tournaments).
>I got somewhat of a reputation for making good rulings by simply knowing
>the rules in detail over a long period of time.
Well, despite knowing the rules in detail over a long period of time, people
still don't necessarily listen to my rulings (and no, I don't think it has
anything to do with my personality or demeanor or anything else like that.
Don't go there!).
>I remember once playing a newbie and at some point pointing out
>something he was doing wrong (very obviously), but he insisted he wasn't
>wrong, until he said defiantly 'How can you be sure, are you a
>tournament judge?', to which I answered 'Well actually, yes, I am' -
>'Oh...'
Well, unfortunately, some people seem to think that the position of Prince or
Judge automatically confers some magical degree of reverence. The truth is,
I've seen more than my share of inept judges and incompetent princes (without
naming names for either group). Without trying to insult any of the (many)
excellent Princes/Judges, the mere fact that you're supposed to be promoting
the game or that you're holding a particular tournament by itself doesn't
necessarily mean you know jacksh*t about the game.
>I suppose you could carry around a list of current rulings, so that
>whenever something came up you could point it out. That would help
>getting your 'new' rulings accepted, since other people will remember
>you as 'the guy who always carries all the rules around, so he should
>know them pretty well'. :)
*Except* for the fact that most of the best (and most common) rulings *aren't*
from the standard rulings list. In fact, I often roll my eyes when someone
claims that something is this way "because the Official Clarification, Rulings,
and Errata Page doesn't say otherwise." Then I have to calmly try to explain
that the "Official Clarification, Ruling, and Errata Page" encompasses only a
small small fraction of the rulings. (The most common way I end up backing up
my attempted rulings afterwards is with referenced posts via Google. Google
searches rock!).
>...of course, there will always be some people who'll keep disputing
>your rulings (hi Luis), no matter what you do.
>If your group is filled with those, you're SOL. :(
>
Well, I guess I'm SOL either way... ='(
Halcyan 2
Flux
>>something he was doing wrong (very obviously), but he insisted he wasn't
>>wrong, until he said defiantly 'How can you be sure, are you a
>>tournament judge?', to which I answered 'Well actually, yes, I am' -
>>'Oh...'
>
> Well, unfortunately, some people seem to think that the position of Prince or
> Judge automatically confers some magical degree of reverence. The truth is,
> I've seen more than my share of inept judges and incompetent princes (without
> naming names for either group). Without trying to insult any of the (many)
> excellent Princes/Judges, the mere fact that you're supposed to be promoting
> the game or that you're holding a particular tournament by itself doesn't
> necessarily mean you know jacksh*t about the game.
I agree.
Still, holding such a position does a lot for the credibility of your
rulings (specially with ex-Magic players), even if it's not really
deserved. :-/
Maybe it's time to introduce some kind of 'VEKN judge certification'.
>>I suppose you could carry around a list of current rulings, so that
>>whenever something came up you could point it out. That would help
>>getting your 'new' rulings accepted, since other people will remember
>>you as 'the guy who always carries all the rules around, so he should
>>know them pretty well'. :)
>
>
> *Except* for the fact that most of the best (and most common) rulings *aren't*
> from the standard rulings list. In fact, I often roll my eyes when someone
> claims that something is this way "because the Official Clarification, Rulings,
> and Errata Page doesn't say otherwise." Then I have to calmly try to explain
> that the "Official Clarification, Ruling, and Errata Page" encompasses only a
> small small fraction of the rulings. (The most common way I end up backing up
> my attempted rulings afterwards is with referenced posts via Google. Google
> searches rock!).
There you go, you just have carry Google with you then! ;)
Flux
Naram
> >> [RANT]
> >>
> >> How the frell do you get other people in your playgroup (or at tournaments,
> or
> >> at whereever) to actually listen to you? Time and time again I tell people
> how
> >> things officially work but they just ignore me or overrule me. Then
> afterwards,
> >> I end up sending giant e-mails confirming all the things I said before with
> >> official rulings but the next time I see them, they *still* won't listen to
> me
> >> about the next issue. As much fun as it is saying "I told you so" and
> rubbing
> >> it in people's faces, idealistically, people would actually listen to me
> the
> >> first time so I wouldn't even have to say the eventual "I told you so"...
> >>
> >> [/RANT]
> >
> >Obviously LSJ should have little problem in getting his rulings
> >accepted, so I don't know if he's the right person to be asking this ;)
>
>
> Ha ha. I was just wondering if there was an official way to get people to
> actually listen to you when you're right (especially the judges at
> tournaments).
>
Naturally everyone tends to belive that their opinion is correct.
Yours tends to be so more often then not, since you monitor this
newsgroup closely. Still, unless you can produce a relevant ruling on
the spot - I for one will tend to follow my own best judgement going
by card text. What may help in these situations is if you clearly
state that you remember a ruling by LSJ concerning the specific
situation. As opposed to me thinking that you are simply stating your
personal opinion on the card interaction which would not have any more
weight then anyone else's.
<snip>
> *Except* for the fact that most of the best (and most common) rulings *aren't*
> from the standard rulings list. In fact, I often roll my eyes when someone
> claims that something is this way "because the Official Clarification, Rulings,
> and Errata Page doesn't say otherwise." Then I have to calmly try to explain
> that the "Official Clarification, Ruling, and Errata Page" encompasses only a
> small small fraction of the rulings. (The most common way I end up backing up
> my attempted rulings afterwards is with referenced posts via Google. Google
> searches rock!).
>
True, official rulings list only goes so far.
Still, some perspective should be applied. A game is rarely won or
lost based on a single ruling. Even if a ruling determines the
outcome, that sucks... but still it's just a game and mostly played
for fun. IMO, rulings by majority consent are not the end of the
world, even in a tournament setting (absent actuall official info).
> Halcyan 2
Naram
BTW, yes I am still holding a grudge over that Con. Ag. for 4 aimed at
me. :P
LSJ
>
> Halcyan 2 wrote:
>
> > You know, come to think of it, I have one more question for LSJ:
> >
> > [RANT]
> >
> > How the frell do you get other people in your playgroup (or at tournaments, or
> > at whereever) to actually listen to you? Time and time again I tell people how
> > things officially work but they just ignore me or overrule me. Then afterwards,
> > I end up sending giant e-mails confirming all the things I said before with
> > official rulings but the next time I see them, they *still* won't listen to me
> > about the next issue. As much fun as it is saying "I told you so" and rubbing
> > it in people's faces, idealistically, people would actually listen to me the
> > first time so I wouldn't even have to say the eventual "I told you so"...
> >
> > [/RANT]
>
> Obviously LSJ should have little problem in getting his rulings
> accepted, so I don't know if he's the right person to be asking this ;)
Correct.
For those of you who are not officially recognized as "ultimate rules
authorities", the best solution is to play with reasonable players (or
under a reasonable judge at a VEKN tournament).
Unfortunately, that (the former) seems to be more of a luxury than I had
previously assumed. :-)
Joshua Duffin
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020721073052...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> >> [RANT]
[snip rant]
> Ha ha. I was just wondering if there was an official way to get people to
> actually listen to you when you're right (especially the judges at
> tournaments).
Not outside of having the rule with you, no, I don't think so.
Ideally you could carry a laptop with web access and show people
the Google reference on the spot. :-) Otherwise you just have
to be respected by the people in question as being knowledgeable
about the rules. If that doesn't happen - if the people you
play with are for some reason resistant to the idea that you're
usually right even though you've shown them that you are on
multiple occasions - I guess you are kind of SOL.
In my opinion any judge should have, at minimum, the current
cardtexts, E/R/C file, and tournament rules on hand at any event
they're running. But of course not every judge can manage that.
> *Except* for the fact that most of the best (and most common)
> rulings *aren't* from the standard rulings list.
Really? Like what? In my experience most *common* things are
either in current cardtext (not always printed cardtext, esp.
on old cards) or in the E/R/C list. Or derivable from cardtext
if you know "the rules about interpreting cardtext".
> Well, I guess I'm SOL either way... ='(
Heh. Or here's another idea, you could try and get LSJ's cell
phone number and call him up whenever someone argues for a
wrong rule during a tournament. ;-)
Josh
or just go to my tournaments, i hardly ever make bad rulings ;-)
Xian
"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ahhbu3$t5acs$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de...
> "Halcyan 2" wrote:
> > Ha ha. I was just wondering if there was an official way to get people to
> > actually listen to you when you're right (especially the judges at
> > tournaments).
>
> Not outside of having the rule with you, no, I don't think so.
> Ideally you could carry a laptop with web access and show people
> the Google reference on the spot. :-) Otherwise you just have
Hey Josh! Your new leap into the modern age (by which I mean cell phone) is
web-capable, right? Just got a new one, and I noticed that (according to AT&T
at least), google is supposed to be pretty phone-friendly. I don't really
relish punching in rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad , but hopefully the string
"LSJ" will provide the same functionality. :) Maybe this'll save some
headaches at WoN, if LSJ isn't available himself. Heh.
Xian
babbling randomly
mgreen02
> Enhanced Senses to block
> Sideslip to dodge
> Blur for two additional
> Fleshcraft for -2 stealth
> Majesty to untap
>
*muffled laughter*
And you made fun of my !Tremere Mind Rape/ Clan Impersonation/ Ayelea,
The Manipulator/ Heildelburg Castle/ Khobar Towers deck.
Actually, fair point.
matt.
Joshua Duffin
"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message
news:ahiaf3$tj21b$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Hey Josh! Your new leap into the modern age (by which I mean cell
> phone) is web-capable, right? Just got a new one, and I noticed
> that (according to AT&T at least), google is supposed to be pretty
> phone-friendly. I don't really relish punching in rec.games.trading-
> cards.jyhad , but hopefully the string "LSJ" will provide the same
> functionality. :) Maybe this'll save some headaches at WoN, if LSJ
> isn't available himself. Heh.
Yes, this does seem to be feasible. Just "LSJ" and a cardname (eg
Disarm) as a search string doesn't seem to narrow it down to
exactly what you might be looking for, though, so it might be
necessary to do a certain amount of text-inputting to get a good
shot at finding what you're looking for.
So Halcyan, you may be able to show people rulings with just a
cell phone, if you have one with web access. :-)
Josh
...you got a new phone? but your old one was so shiny!
LSJ
> Hey Josh! Your new leap into the modern age (by which I mean cell phone) is
> web-capable, right? Just got a new one, and I noticed that (according to AT&T
> at least), google is supposed to be pretty phone-friendly. I don't really
> relish punching in rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad , but hopefully the string
> "LSJ" will provide the same functionality. :) Maybe this'll save some
> headaches at WoN, if LSJ isn't available himself. Heh.
On the Google search, "rec.*.jyhad" works as well. That may save you
some touch pad strokes.
James Coupe
<jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Yes, this does seem to be feasible. Just "LSJ" and a cardname (eg
>Disarm) as a search string doesn't seem to narrow it down to
>exactly what you might be looking for, though, so it might be
>necessary to do a certain amount of text-inputting to get a good
>shot at finding what you're looking for.
Sticking a couple of similar words on is useful.
Personally, when trying to dig such things up, I try to do the
following:
Author: LSJ
Newsgroup: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Search for all words: card name (or common card acronym) rule points
e.g.
Search for all words:
Flesh Of Marble aggravated damage
Clan Impersonation sect change
That sort of thing. That tends to help a lot more.
LSJ
> Sticking a couple of similar words on is useful.
>
> Personally, when trying to dig such things up, I try to do the
> following:
>
> Author: LSJ
> Newsgroup: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
>
> Search for all words: card name (or common card acronym) rule points
>
> e.g.
>
> Search for all words:
>
> Flesh Of Marble aggravated damage
> Clan Impersonation sect change
>
> That sort of thing. That tends to help a lot more.
I've run afoul of enough unexpected typos and such that I tend to
use the "OR" and the pattern matching more now:
e.g.
ALL: "agg*" ANY: "FoM Marble" => "agg* FoM OR Marble author:LSJ"
"Clan Imp* sect* author:LSJ"
("Damage" is easy to miss when people spell it "dmg")
Xian
> On the Google search, "rec.*.jyhad" works as well. That may save you
> some touch pad strokes.
Oh, duh. :)
Well, I don't need it too badly, as people tend to believe me. Still, a very
good point.
Xian
will make sure to bring the cell phone
Xian
[phone google]
> Yes, this does seem to be feasible. Just "LSJ" and a cardname (eg
> Disarm) as a search string doesn't seem to narrow it down to
> exactly what you might be looking for, though, so it might be
> necessary to do a certain amount of text-inputting to get a good
> shot at finding what you're looking for.
Yeah. I dunno about yours, but my phone allows me to save bookmarks, so you
could (if you're feeling extra geeky), look it up on google at home, enter the
url into your phone, and dial it up on command when playing. Hehe.
Public announcement: pre-look-up your google searches. Will save much time and
frustration when fiddling with your cell phone.
> ...you got a new phone? but your old one was so shiny!
Yeah, well, the old phone was getting kind of flaky...both the chrome finish and
the service. You may remember this from such phone calls as: All of Them at
Origins! I figured it was the phone (after two years of wear and tear, and
approaching another set of replacement batteries), rather than the always
exemplary service I've had from AT&T (surprisingly enough). The new phone is
definitely not as shiny, nor does it have the cool slidey key cover. Smaller
than the old phone, the same number, and GSM tech (which, while it is kind of
biting me in the ass right now, due to no service in NYC or most of the east
coast, should pay off soon enough), though. And, to usher in the new age of
completely superfluous gadgetry, it also has a color screen!
Xian
gadget-tastic!
Andrew S. Davidson
>Hey Josh! Your new leap into the modern age (by which I mean cell phone) is
>web-capable, right? Just got a new one, and I noticed that (according to AT&T
>at least), google is supposed to be pretty phone-friendly. I don't really
>relish punching in rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad , but hopefully the string
>"LSJ" will provide the same functionality. :) Maybe this'll save some
>headaches at WoN, if LSJ isn't available himself. Heh.
I'm tempted to get an xda phone + pocket PC combo on the way to Gencon
(the airport shops are tax free which saves 17.5% VAT). But bear in
mind the VEKN tournament rules:
"1.5. Electronic Devices
The head judge or tournament organizer may choose not to allow players
to participate with electronic devices (such as cellular phones,
pagers, and/or portable audio units) turned on."
This might also spoil my plans to play Malkavian with an MP3 jukebox
constantly supplying me with "voices in my head".
Andrew
Xian
"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> wrote in message
news:C480E528F1DB8283.E13439AC...@lp.airnews.net...
> On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:10:06 -0500, Xian wrote:
> But bear in mind the VEKN tournament rules:
>
> "1.5. Electronic Devices
> The head judge or tournament organizer may choose not to allow players
> to participate with electronic devices (such as cellular phones,
> pagers, and/or portable audio units) turned on."
I usually leave my gadgets turned off unless there is a specific need for them
to be on, like I want to look up a ruling. I suspect that this rule exists to
curtail unruly behavior at the discretion of the judge, not simply to enforce a
game-wide ban on doohickeys.
> This might also spoil my plans to play Malkavian with an MP3 jukebox
> constantly supplying me with "voices in my head".
Seems a little sketchy.
Xian
Chris Berger
>
> [RANT]
>
> How the frell do you get other people in your playgroup (or at tournaments,
or
> at whereever) to actually listen to you? Time and time again I tell people
how
> things officially work but they just ignore me or overrule me. Then
afterwards,
> I end up sending giant e-mails confirming all the things I said before with
> official rulings but the next time I see them, they *still* won't listen to
me
> about the next issue. As much fun as it is saying "I told you so" and rubbing
> it in people's faces, idealistically, people would actually listen to me the
> first time so I wouldn't even have to say the eventual "I told you so"...
>
> [/RANT]
>
right, and to shout you down when you're wrong. Of course, Ocean tells me that
the other day you browbeat him into accepting some "ruling" which he later
looked up and discovered you were wrong about... so maybe we *shouldn't* be
listening to you, eh? >;)
Halcyan 2
>me. :P
>
Hey! You had it coming! I drew the line in the sand and you crossed it (doing 4
Con. Ag. damage to me when I was your grandprey). I was just repaying the
favor. And passing that Con Ag. with your very own Charming Lobby only made it
so much sweeter.
Don't cross me. I'm bitter and vengeful. Especially to mean predators. Just ask
Christian. =P
Halcyan 2
Halcyan 2
>you're
>right, and to shout you down when you're wrong.
No, I don't mean you Chris. You tend to be good about it. But maybe that's also
because you post on the newsgroup. When I play with Boris, Barnette, Kevin, or
most other people, they just ignore me, especially when I'm right.
>Of course, Ocean tells me that
>the other day you browbeat him into accepting some "ruling" which he later
>looked up and discovered you were wrong about... so maybe we *shouldn't* be
>listening to you, eh?
Really? Which one? I'm curious about that. First off, I'll be the first to
admit that I'll make mistakes from time to time, but with my rules expertise, I
know for a fact that I make mistakes A LOT less often than most others.
*** WARNING! Severe rant up ahead. I'm just in a pissy mood suddenly so don't
take any personal offense to anything else I might say:
[RANT]
Here's some cases off the top of my head:
#1. At the sealed deck tournament (a few weeks ago), I tried telling Barnette
that Astrid couldn't force a Tremere to vote if the Tremere wanted to abstain.
He wouldn't listen to me and just told me that the Jyhad (what we had) text
said that she could force a vote. I tried telling everyone the VTES version was
different but was ignored, meaning that Barnette's prey's Cassandra ended up
voting with Astrid the entire game (instead of abstaining).
#2. In regards to *this* current thread, I tried telling everyone (including
Boris) that Disarm could be played if the opposing vampire was going to torpor
(say from a giant hand strike for 20). I was sub-ing in for Barnette using his
Blood Brothers deck one time and my predator (a Gargoyle pot/for deck) wanted
to play a Disarm on Boris (I think) even though he was already going to torpor.
Boris claimed his little ""end of combat" was specifically reffering to the
press phase", I explained he was wrong but no one listened to me.
#3. Another one that I'm really pissed about was at a recent, VERY LARGE
tournament, where I bled with Gideon for 2, had it reduced by 2 (Telepathic
Counter), and then threw an Aire of Elation on top of that. The STUPID LITTLE
FUCKER played an Archon Investigation. I argued that he couldn't play it since
the TC was reducing the bleed but the little jackass said that AI just referred
to an "attempt to bleed for more than 3." And some load of BS like that. The
rest of the table agrees with him and I lose my minion.
FYI:
From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com)
Subject: Re: 3 questions
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
View this article only
Date: 2001-08-02 03:34:19 PST
> 3. Bleeding & Archon Investigation
>
> Minion is bleeding me with +3 bleed. I don't block it but I play telepathic
> counter and reduce bleed by 2. Next card I draw is Archon Investigation. Can
> I burn
> the bleeding minion or is it played like it's bleeding only 2 (because I
> used Telepathic Counter)?
No. The bleed must be for more than 3 (card text).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
#4. And don't even get me started on when Robyn, Christian, and others at the
table wouldn't believe me when I claimed that Ex Nihilo makes a vampire immune
to Shadow Twin damage. I even let Robyn read the card! (No hard feelings here,
just using this as yet another example!).
#5. Or another case when I had the edge (but forgot about it) and then did
something that normally happens during the master phase. I turned blue trying
to explain that this exact discussion had recently come up on the newsgroup but
everyone (including the judge, Kevin Mergen) went on and on about how edge pool
is optional:
From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com)
Subject: Re: [LSJ] Contesting titles
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
View this article only
Date: 2002-06-19 04:49:02 PST
Halcyan 2 wrote:
> If people want to get picky about where to place Praxis Seizure cards, then
you
> can be equally picky. Oh look, too late to gain Edge pool since you already
> took a blood from your Blood Doll. Or our favorite, discard is *after*
> influence so since you discarded, no more transfers for you. Also, untapping
a
> minion who just equipped with a Leather Jacket (using that untap) counts as
> ending your turn. So sad, too bad. But if you want to play annoying, so can
the
> rest of us! =P
Being picky won't help here.
The "picked on" person can just observe that they hadn't left their untap
phase (so pulling from the Blood Doll was illegal) or that they hadn't
left the minion phase (so untapping the LJ bearer was illegal), or that
they hadn't left their influence phase (so discarding a card was illegal).
You'd have to come up with appropriate resolutions to the illegal play,
but denying the player his pool or remainder of the turn doesn't seem
appropriate. YMMV.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
#6. At the last Naperville tournament, people wouldn't believe me when I tried
to explain that a Meddling of Smith is controlled by whoever played it (like
Rumours of Gehenna) and goes away if that player is ousted. And you don't even
want me to get started on some of the hijinks I've encountered when playing
with the Naperville group.
#7. Another recent example in our playgroup was when someone wanted to Parity
Shift but give some of the pool back to the person who was Shifted (Player A
Shifts Player B in a 5-player game and wants to take 3 pool but let Player B
keep the other 2 pool). I explained that you can't since you have to distribute
it among "the other remaining Methuselahs" (notice the use of "other"). I
managed to coerce the other players into accepting my ruling but it wasn't
easy!
It gets frustrating trying to convince people that if you decline to block and
deflect a bleed which is deflected back to you, a new blocking opportunity
ensues. Or that discipline cards on a Banished vampire aren't in play when
influencing the vamp out again. Or when Ira tried to claim that an Echo of
Harmony'ed vote comes with the inherent vote (Boris was wavering on this one
but fortunately eventually agreed with me).
I used to send follow-up e-mails after most tournaments or gaming sessions to
prove how my calls (which were disputed) were indeed right but lately I've sort
of given up. I still have a bunch of old e-mails that can show you the
riduculousness of some of these things if you want to see them...
Halcyan 2
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
[/RANT]
Tobias
Also fun: Constanza Vinti, Mind rape, Heidelburg, Clan Impersonation.
"You can have your almost-empty Ventrue Back now".
(Similar trick possible with Marianna and CI to Giovanni)
Tobias
Deventer
Chris Berger
> >WTF are you talking about Eric? I'm generally there to back you up when
> >you're
> >right, and to shout you down when you're wrong.
>
>
> No, I don't mean you Chris. You tend to be good about it. But maybe that's
also
> because you post on the newsgroup. When I play with Boris, Barnette, Kevin,
or
> most other people, they just ignore me, especially when I'm right.
>
woo-hoo-hoo... hahahahahahahaha.
sorry Eric, been waiting to use that one for a while. sorry about your rules
problems. I used to carry a copy of the collected rulings with me to
tournaments, especially those run by the former rules rep (I forget his name,
but he tended to ignore any and all rulings made by LSJ... he even ran a
sealed tourney that allowed vote pushing after it was made illegal.. guess what
kinds of decks all made the final). But now, LSJ tends to just make his
rulings on the newsgroup, and AFAIK it's impossible to find a collected source
of them all.
Xian
[snip rant warning :) ]
> #3. [snip AI horror story]
How the hell did that happen? Didn't you call the judge over?
> #4. And don't even get me started on when Robyn, Christian, and others at the
> table wouldn't believe me when I claimed that Ex Nihilo makes a vampire immune
> to Shadow Twin damage. I even let Robyn read the card! (No hard feelings here,
> just using this as yet another example!).
Heh. You could have called Kevin over for that one, too. I never
actually looked at the card, and I thought I distinctly heard the
phrase "in combat", but whatever.
I don't think I actually bothered to Shadow Twin that vampire, though,
did I? I think that my theory was that I'd let it get low on blood
and *then* Shadow Twin it. :)
> #5. Or another case when I had the edge (but forgot about it) and then did
> something that normally happens during the master phase.
People tend to get picky about that, simply because it has so long
been seen as optional. I recall LSJ pointing out the "master phase
action being illegal" thing, but it seemed kind of sketchy, at least
as far as LSJ's statements are sketchy. :)
That being said, I generally tend to forgive breaches of "table
etiquette" until someone won't forgive me. Then I get picky. :)
> I used to send follow-up e-mails after most tournaments or gaming sessions to
> prove how my calls (which were disputed) were indeed right but lately I've
I tend to do this as well, even after casual games, but generally, the
players in my group tend to listen to Mark (our prince) and myself.
Oh yeah, and I also try to relax and not let it bug me. It is, after
all, only a game. :)
Xian