Please stop Photochopchop art
as...@hotmail.com
Heyes (http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?
line=Checklist_SwordOfCaine)
Please LSJ (and anyone else who is in charge) - stop this baaaad
artwork. Please. Other, possibly even worse, examples was in 3rd
edition (like Mariel St John, Lectora).
It really looks like someone just took a picture of his girlfriend,
draw some ugly tatoos on it (remember - ALL vampire have tatoos!) and
applied ONE filter in Photoshop over it. Even by Photoshop-art-
standards, this is poor (Christopher Shy and Lawrence Snelly, please
come back, everything is forgiven!)
I really don´t think this plays in the same league as much of the
other artwork in recent sets, which has been overall good (for example
Heather Kreiter http://shamansoulstudios.com/). Why mix good artwork
with the photochopchop?
Anyone else have some opinions on this? Or mayby even explanations?
Appolonius
>
> It really looks like someone just took a picture of his girlfriend,
> draw some ugly tatoos on it (remember - ALL vampire have tatoos!) and
> applied ONE filter in Photoshop over it. Even by Photoshop-art-
> standards, this is poor (Christopher Shy and Lawrence Snelly, please
> come back, everything is forgiven!)
Lawrence Snelly? For Sabbat War & Final Nights he was the worst
photoshop abuser going!
Just look at the Final Nights setites:
(1) Take photo of friend (goofy expression optional).
(2) Apply photoshop filter - green recommended.
(3) Add scales. Done!
To be fair, he's done some good stuff before and since (Anneke, Hadrian
Garrick, and the Legacies DoC come to mind).
Appolonius.
Klai...@gmail.com
I personally don't have anything against photoshop art, they look
quite nice for most parts, like this particular promo vamp for
example. I never liked most Shy's art though, they looked boring and
ugly apart for few exceptions, Snelly I have always liked, though,
apart from those few 'three-faced' pics like Mukhtar and that one
setite.
Vragozakas
>Why mix good artwork with the photochopchop?
I don't know the real answer, maybe 'cause Photoshop art is cheaper?
If cheap art helps this game survive, let's have cheap art.
If they pay an artist the same cash for a poor photoshop or an ugly
paint, I prefer the paint...also if ugly.
Teeka
> a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > It really looks like someone just took a picture of his girlfriend,
> > draw some ugly tatoos on it (remember - ALL vampire have tatoos!) and
> > applied ONE filter in Photoshop over it.
It doesn't just look like it, that's exactly what it is. I know this
issue has been raised quite a few times before, but since I haven't
flung my two cents into the abyss of useless complaints yet:
- I totally agree this way of making card art is very very awful. I
don't even consider it art at all, really. I see it as a cheap, simple
way of cashing in. A monkey could do it. Hell, I could do it!
- One of the most important things that attracted me in CCGs and still
does, is the visual aspect. I like the idea of having a "fantasy
world" (as in, non-real life) setting for a game and the art should
contribute to that.
Therefor, I really hate when my cards have pictures of actual people
(or drawings which are clearly drawn directly over a photo, which is
essentially the same). It kills the "otherworldly feel", if you will.
- I want my cards to be recognizable. I want to know which card is
which by looking at the art (especially upside-down, by low lighting
or across a table), so they should be distincly different from each
other.
I hate having tons of vampires in the game that all have the same
shaded face with dark eyes, black clothes and nothing in the
background. "Let's see.. It's.. yes, a Baali... Is it Angra Mainyu?..
No wait, this one has hair... it's Giotto Verducci."
I know Enkidu, Duck or Dolphin Black the instant I see them, which is
a GOOD THING (tm).
- Not too mention the double-art scam Chris Shy pulled on us (twice
already, and three times if you count the Blount sisters!)
- I don't give a rat's ass if the art is not perfect (we all know WW
can't afford 300 works of top notch artists for each set), but a
picture of a regular person with a shade-filter and a blurred out
face? Come on!
...And apparently even that was too much work, now its just (like you
said) a photo with add-on tattoos.
In short: I'll take a mediocre drawing over a photoshop any day.
- Besides, nowadays (practically?) all the vampires are from canon
V:tM books, so I think they should look like the actual people/
creatures from those books. A picture of a regular guy with added
horns does not a believable demon make, IMO.
Yes, all of this is just my opinion, so I guess this thread will go
into the "can't argue about art, we all like different things" trash
can soon. But hey, if no-one complains, how will WW know, right?
Jeff Kuta
> I just saw the first preview vamp from Sword of Caine - Kestrelle
> Heyes (http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?
> line=Checklist_SwordOfCaine)
>
> Please LSJ (and anyone else who is in charge) - stop this baaaad
> artwork. Please. Other, possibly even worse, examples was in 3rd
> edition (like Mariel St John, Lectora).
>
> It really looks like someone just took a picture of his girlfriend,
> draw some ugly tatoos on it (remember - ALL vampire have tatoos!) and
> applied ONE filter in Photoshop over it. Even by Photoshop-art-
> standards, this is poor (Christopher Shy and Lawrence Snelly, please
> come back, everything is forgiven!)
>
> I really don´t think this plays in the same league as much of the
> other artwork in recent sets, which has been overall good (for example
> with the photochopchop?
>
> Anyone else have some opinions on this? Or mayby even explanations?
More Drew Tucker!
John Flournoy
> I just saw the first preview vamp from Sword of Caine - Kestrelle
> Heyes (http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?
> line=Checklist_SwordOfCaine)
>
> Please LSJ (and anyone else who is in charge) - stop this baaaad
> artwork. Please. Other, possibly even worse, examples was in 3rd
> edition (like Mariel St John, Lectora).
>
> It really looks like someone just took a picture of his girlfriend,
> draw some ugly tatoos on it (remember - ALL vampire have tatoos!) and
> applied ONE filter in Photoshop over it. Even by Photoshop-art-
> standards, this is poor (Christopher Shy and Lawrence Snelly, please
> come back, everything is forgiven!)
>
> I really don´t think this plays in the same league as much of the
> other artwork in recent sets, which has been overall good (for example
> with the photochopchop?
>
> Anyone else have some opinions on this? Or mayby even explanations?
Explanation:
The 'model' for Kestrelle Hayes wasn't 'his girlfriend', but is the
artist herself (and is also WW's marketing art director or some such.
Supposedly she also used herself as the model for Lorrie Dunsirn.)
I don't recall similar bitching being made when Oscar 'orgplay' Garza
got immortalized as a Lasombra by the same artist using the same
technique - in fact, most people at the US Nats thought it was pretty
cool...
I'm inclined to cut her a lot of slack for a self-portrait, given that
I've got no problems with the art of other cards of hers (Malabranca
and Keith Moody, for instance.)
-John Flournoy
Teeka
> On Feb 27, 6:03 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> I don't recall similar bitching being made when Oscar 'orgplay' Garza
> got immortalized as a Lasombra by the same artist using the same
> technique - in fact, most people at the US Nats thought it was pretty
> cool...
>
For what it's worth, in my reply to the original post, I was referring
to the photo-works in general, not that particular card (and I already
knew it was a self-portrait). My views still stand, no matter who is
on the photo, OrgPlay or me or anyone.
A cool drawing (no traced photo, but an actual drawn portrait) of an
actual person, modified significantly to resemble a vampire, would be
totally ok though. I mean, Igo the Hungry, Anson and Melissa Barton
are self-portratits too but done in a way that you can't tell if you
don't know.
John Flournoy
Agreed in general that I'd prefer things more customized than a simple
photoshop (although nitpicking, Anson is a stylized portrait of one
early CCG artist done by another artist, not a self-portrait.)
-John Flournoy
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> I'm inclined to cut her a lot of slack for a self-portrait, given that
> I've got no problems with the art of other cards of hers (Malabranca
> and Keith Moody, for instance.)
IMO, the fact that the best self portrait this artist[?] could come up
with was a happy snap in her bathroom with a single photoshop filter
applied to it speaks volumes.
This is supposed to be a picture of a VAMPIRE for god's sake. A Sabbat
Vampire, who if you read the mythos, actually LOOK like vampires. ie,
no Humanity traits, deathly pallor, sunken eyes, looking for all the
world like an animated, bloodsucking corpse. "Artwork" like this is
just plain lazy.
"Look Ma, I found the Dry Brush filter! I can draw vampires!"
as...@hotmail.com
> This is supposed to be a picture of a VAMPIRE for god's sake. A Sabbat
> Vampire, who if you read the mythos, actually LOOK like vampires. ie,
> no Humanity traits, deathly pallor, sunken eyes, looking for all the
> world like an animated, bloodsucking corpse. "Artwork" like this is
> just plain lazy.
Where did you get this from? What mythos?
as...@hotmail.com
> On Feb 27, 6:03 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I just saw the first preview vamp from Sword of Caine - Kestrelle
> > Heyes (http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?
> > line=Checklist_SwordOfCaine)
>
> > Please LSJ (and anyone else who is in charge) - stop this baaaad
> > artwork. Please. Other, possibly even worse, examples was in 3rd
> > edition (like Mariel St John, Lectora).
>
> > It really looks like someone just took a picture of his girlfriend,
> > draw some ugly tatoos on it (remember - ALL vampire have tatoos!) and
> > applied ONE filter in Photoshop over it. Even by Photoshop-art-
> > standards, this is poor (Christopher Shy and Lawrence Snelly, please
> > come back, everything is forgiven!)
>
> > I really don´t think this plays in the same league as much of the
> > other artwork in recent sets, which has been overall good (for example
> > Heather Kreiterhttp://shamansoulstudios.com/). Why mix good artwork
> > with the photochopchop?
>
> > Anyone else have some opinions on this? Or mayby even explanations?
>
> Explanation:
>
> The 'model' for Kestrelle Hayes wasn't 'his girlfriend', but is the
> artist herself (and is also WW's marketing art director or some such.
> Supposedly she also used herself as the model for Lorrie Dunsirn.)
But Lorrie look nothing like Kestrelle, so how can this be?
> I don't recall similar bitching being made when Oscar 'orgplay' Garza
> got immortalized as a Lasombra by the same artist using the same
> technique - in fact, most people at the US Nats thought it was pretty
> cool...
Nothing wrong in doing a portrait or self-portrait, as long as you
actually bother to but some effort in it. And as I said earlier, there
is nothing wrong with working digitally with photo original either - I
think Shy and Snelly does it good, even though their work is totally
overused, and sometimes some cards looks the same. But I mean, a tatoo
and ONE filter in Photoshop... I guess this person works for free?
Otherwise WW is really fooled.
Dave...@gmail.com
I actually have to say, I love a lot of Christopher Shy's artwork (in
general, not Vampire art) but his actual vampires are kinda similar,
although I think it takes a little more skill to do what he does than
you give him credit for (it's more than just a couple of filters in
his case).
I think a lot of the problem is Shy's case is that the way vampire
pictures are done doesn't give him much to play with. His artwork is
generally better when he's dealing with full bodies and scenes and
such, and just doing simples faces does make for a repetitve look.
Plus his forte is in weird, disturning manipulated images which there
isn't much room for in a vampire portrait. Also, i think he phones the
vamps in a little, because just doing a few vampire images pays the
bills more than it satifies creatively.
That said, the art of that preview card really isn't very good.
lon...@dlc.fi
> More Drew Tucker!
F*** yeah!
Same goes for: Durwin Talon and especially Harold Arthur McNeill.
I want more art from the artists who have bold and different styles.
I don't mind photoshopped art but having too much quite similar art
especially in one expansion is something I don't like. The most
obvious example for this si the usage of Christopher Shy's vampires in
some expansions. Nothing wrong with his artwork, but as the vamp pics
were mostly bust -type portraits they were oh so very similar to one
another and actually telling them apart when playing can sometimes be,
if not difficult then at least, bothersome.
Lönkka
NC Finland
www.ahmametal.com
atomweaver
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
Mythos was a fun little game... Bit too "solitaire" though, like a
footrace between two card players to each solve their case.
Interaction/interference with your opponent didn't gain you as much as
extra resources for raw offensive speed.
Wait, what were we talking about?
DZ
AW
Appolonius
>
> - I totally agree this way of making card art is very very awful. I
> don't even consider it art at all, really. I see it as a cheap, simple
> way of cashing in. A monkey could do it. Hell, I could do it!
Hell, my old playgroup _did_ do it!
Here's one of their number immortalised in special "tribute" to vampires
like Samat Ramal-Ra and Mukhtar Bey.
http://www.nowuckas.com/baalihugh.jpg
Appolonius.
John P.
Just in case this is a serious question....
IIRC the morality of "humanity" which most of camarilla followed
indicated how
far from control the vampires kept their "beast". More humane = better
able to
pass as human due to having better control over the beast. Humanity
was a
scale of 1-10. 7 and above could easily pass for human.
The sabbat in abandoning humanity for their various paths had an
equivalent
humanity of no more than 3. Without efforts on their part they could
NOT
pass easily for human. I think as a result the sabbat gave up trying
to hide as humans.
I don't think they ever really looked like "animated blood sucking
corpses" (unless
they wanted to) but most sabbat should have a inhuman quality about
them
in one manner or another.
Of course !Nos, Harbringers, Gangrels with animal traits, Kiasyd
had their own difficulties.
-John P.
Vragozakas
> On Feb 27, 4:03 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
2 votes in favor for Drew Tucker.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> humanity of no more than 3. Without efforts on their part they could NOT
> pass easily for human. I think as a result the sabbat gave up trying to hide as humans.
Well, it was more that the Sabbat believed themselves superior to
Humanity, and most members bristled at the thought of having to hide
their true selves from creatures they looked upon as "cattle". They
were "vampires, and proud of it".
As a game mechanic, any vampire on a Path of Enlightenment had a
effective Humanity score of zero, iirc. Which means pallis skin,
sunken eyes, extended fangs and a distinct aura of "wrongness" about
you. You're an ambulatory corpse, propelled through unlife by
subsisting upon the Blood of living beings, and you looked it.
It's a pretty far cry from the Dry Brush filter in photoshop, that's
for DAMN sure.
as...@hotmail.com
> I think as a result the sabbat gave up trying
> to hide as humans.
>
> I don't think they ever really looked like "animated blood sucking
> corpses" (unless
> they wanted to) but most sabbat should have a inhuman quality about
> them
> in one manner or another.
Somewhat off-topic but. Mmm. I have played alot of Vampire RPG, and I
guess this was why we never fancied playing Sabbat alot. The books say
things like the Sabbat enjoy playing cowboys and indians in the
shopping malls, never hiding their vampiric nature and using
disciplines all the way, with thousands of mortals looking (and
dying!). This does not work at all if you think logically. If this
would happen every night, why is it never on the TV news?
I think even vamps without humanity has a sense of self-preservence.
But back to topic: WW should pay some serious artists instead of
letting some amateur do ONE filter on a selfportrait. And cut down on
the tatoos!
as...@hotmail.com
Yes, actually I like Tucker too. His style is different and very mood-
correct for the game. But some pieces are better than others - I
prefer Lucian and Dandan ((http://www.daydream-graphics.com/artists/
tucker/detail.asp?product_id=dtmtg_dan_dan) before lets say Leandro.
Andrew 'Wes' Weston
<as...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> Somewhat off-topic but. Mmm. I have played alot of Vampire RPG, and I
> guess this was why we never fancied playing Sabbat alot. The books say
> things like the Sabbat enjoy playing cowboys and indians in the
> shopping malls, never hiding their vampiric nature and using
> disciplines all the way, with thousands of mortals looking (and
> dying!). This does not work at all if you think logically. If this
> would happen every night, why is it never on the TV news?
Because the Camarilla own the TV news.
> But back to topic: WW should pay some serious artists instead of
> letting some amateur do ONE filter on a selfportrait. And cut down on
> the tatoos!
I think the art has been getting much better, myself.
Cheers,
WES
James Coupe
nood...@iprimus.com.au writes:
>This is supposed to be a picture of a VAMPIRE for god's sake. A Sabbat
>Vampire, who if you read the mythos, actually LOOK like vampires. ie,
>no Humanity traits, deathly pallor, sunken eyes, looking for all the
>world like an animated, bloodsucking corpse. "Artwork" like this is
>just plain lazy.
Actually, by reading the mythos, I found out that most Sabbat vampires
do not have "no Humanity traits."
Vampire, 3rd edition, p286, the Appendix: "Most vampires - even those of
the independent clans and the Sabbat - follow the ways of Humanity; they
simply tend to degenerate to very low levels over time."
Additionally, despite the Conviction trait making it easy to spot a
vampire as a vampire for creates who can sense the Beast, the rules
about being "completely inhuman" and "can no longer pass for human" are
clearly very fluid. Essentially, this gets bent quite a bit for NPCs,
but PCs don't get to say "Oh, well, I'm an inhuman monster but I want to
go for a quick walk round Walmart." For example, various vampires who
would very probably count as being on a non-humanity-based Path have
successfully pulled off impersonating other clans where they'd be
expected to have a reasonable amount of humanity, and not be an inhuman
killing machine. And, e.g., followers of the Path of Typhon are usually
disregarded as "pimps, pushers and fixers," and value maintaining a
"veil of secrecy, for other[s] look ill upon this Path's means and
ends." And they're "silver-tongued diplomats", which inhuman monsters
don't usually pass as. (pp. 294-5)
So the whole Humanity=passes for human thing is a convenient tool for
the Storyteller to stop idiotic twinking, but can be disregarded where
narrative, role-playing, and fun override the existing framework,
following White Wolf's lead.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Alias
> On Feb 27, 9:20 pm, "Jeff Kuta" <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > More Drew Tucker!
>
> F*** yeah!
> Same goes for: Durwin Talon and especially Harold Arthur McNeill.
> I want more art from the artists who have bold and different styles.
Tucker's Lucian and Leandro are one of the best VTES art ever
IMO..insane elders at the first glance.
McNeill is not so good portraitist, but he really shines in abstract
card concepts (Bonding, Seduction, Sudden etc)
To your list I would add Pete Venters, John Bolton, and Nilson
nobody can judge the art quality objectively, but one thing is certain
- all these guys seem to care about the game story and atmosphere,
instead of just randomly picking from their art portfolios.
for example, Nilson's Jesse Menks might not be the best art ever, as
for the technique and such, but if you look at the picture, that
Anthelios flickering behind him in the pale twilight..check! it's
there! the horror! gehenna! and you immediately know, that the artist
knew what he was doing.
I would always choose such art over the perfectionist-but-sterile
Boris Vallejo-esque things like Aksynia Daclau, no matter how big her
tits are.
Kevin M.
>
> nobody can judge the art quality objectively [...]
Look at Ambrosio Luis Moncada! It's a thumb!
It's a G-d damned thumb!!!!
=)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Peter D Bakija
> But back to topic: WW should pay some serious artists instead of
> letting some amateur do ONE filter on a selfportrait. And cut down on
> the tatoos!
Here is the thing--photoshop art is, ya know, quick. And as a result,
cheap. Which means more art for the same amount of money. Which means
stable, low prices for the product. I'm in no way in favor of an all
photoshop art game or anything, but if the occasional photoshop
portrait means that someone gets in 12 pieces instead of 10 in the
same time and for the same cost, well, I'm ok with that.
-Peter
Teeka
> On Mar 1, 4:31 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
(snip)
if the occasional photoshop
> portrait means that someone gets in 12 pieces instead of 10 in the
> same time and for the same cost, well, I'm ok with that.
>
> -Peter
Hah. You're making it sound like WW is forced to use photoshoppers,
without having any alternatives. I think we can all understand the low-
cost thing (not arguing with that part of your point), but I find it
very hard to believe that it's impossible to find "real" artists that
will do the same amount of art for the same price. You can't convince
me that each and every "real" artist out there is more expensive than
the photoshoppers, giving WW no choice but to go for photoshop.
Peter D Bakija
> Hah. You're making it sound like WW is forced to use photoshoppers,
> without having any alternatives. I think we can all understand the low-
> cost thing (not arguing with that part of your point), but I find it
> very hard to believe that it's impossible to find "real" artists that
> will do the same amount of art for the same price. You can't convince
> me that each and every "real" artist out there is more expensive than
> the photoshoppers, giving WW no choice but to go for photoshop.
No, no, that isn't what I'm saying. The people who do the photoshop
art also tend to do non photoshop art as well. And I suspect that, in
the long run, WW is like "Hey! We need X pieces of art for Y amount of
money in Z amount of time!" and the response is "Ok, I can do that,
but some of it is going to be photoshopy, rather than hand painted..."
It takes time to do illustrations, and I suspect that with as much
illustration as is necessary for a given CCG set, folks don't actually
get paid that much per piece. If the occasional photoshop piece is
mixed in in the name of making it all work, well, there ya go.
-Peter
as...@hotmail.com
If I bought X pieces of art and gets T pieces of art plus G pieces of
crap I would tell that "artist" to fuck off. There is no shortage of
good, not to expensive artists out there.
Damnans
Do you or anyone else have any evidence that VTES artists do not get
paid for Photoshop art as much as they get paid for traditional art?
I do not have such evidence.
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnans
http://www.vtes.net
http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
Peter D Bakija
"Damnans" <damna...@ono.com> wrote:
> Do you or anyone else have any evidence that VTES artists do not get
> paid for Photoshop art as much as they get paid for traditional art?
Nope. I'm just guessing. I'd figure that someone would agree to X pieces
for Y dollars, and agree to that figure based on how much time it is
gonna take to do those X pieces. But then, I could be wrong.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> Actually, by reading the mythos, I found out that most Sabbat vampires
> do not have "no Humanity traits."
The 3rd Ed Vampire Core rules only describe the Sabbat in the simplest
possible terms, and gives them the most basic descriptions, since they
are only intended to be NPC foils for PCs that are by and large from
the Camarilla. Reading the core rules, you're getting the "Cliff
notes" version. Reading the 3rd Ed Sabbat Handbook will give you a far
better understanding of what the sect is actually like, and expands a
great deal on the sect, it's members and it's motivations.
It's true that some members of the Sabbat, particularly randomly
embraced shock troopers, are on the Path of Humanity. Conversion to a
Path of Enlightenment take time and education - an investement on the
part of Sabbat elders. The Sabbat often skips making this investment
in expendable vampires that are going to be thrown into the fray to
fight and die against the Camarilla. So yes, there are members of the
Sabbat on Humanity. However:
1] These vampires, exposed nightly to the murderous depravations of
packmates on the frontlines intent on destroying the Masquerade,
fighting, killing and dying, very, very quickly drop to Humanity
scores of 3 and below. The Sabbat essentially want these shock
troopers to hit Wassail, all the better to tie up Camarilla forces and
breach the Masq. Vampires with Humanity of 3 look like vampires - it
takes a very poorly lit room and not much conversation for a vampire
on Hum 3 not have people running away from him in fear. At this stage,
the beast is VERY close to the surface. If Kestrell was one of these
troopers, she still wouldn't pass for human in a brightly lit
bathroom, as the artwork on the card shows.
2] Sabbat shock troopers are very rarely Ventrue Antitribu, since the
disciplines of Auspex and Dominate don't make for very effective
combatants. [Pot, Cel, Obt, Vic etc are far more brutal and useful].
Not saying they're NEVER !Ventrue, but those !Ventrue that are on the
frontlines would almost certainly have FOR like Rico Loco. [run into
building, blow it up, walk out wihtout a scratch type of guy]. It's
possible with AUS Kestrell is used in a scouting capacity, but see
below.
3] The fact that Kestrell has AUS means she's been around quite a
while, long enough to have proven her worth and been put on a Path,
certainly long enough to have seen and participated in enough
inhumanity to be tottering on the edge of wassail if she hadn't
converted from Humanity.
On infiltrators: yes, the Sabbat do send vampires into the Cam to spy
from the inside - good old Marcus Vitel is a classic example. However,
these vampires are carefully chosen, almost universally on a Path that
doesn't usually sing the virtues of mass murder, are normaly
Fleshcrafted to the bejesus, and put into a position where their
occasional quirks and surfacing inhumanity won't be a problem. For
example, Vitel posed as a Ventrue Elder. Elders in the Camarilla are
very often on low humanity scores themselves [the natural erosion of
morality after centuries of unlife and all it's angst] so putting a
Lasombra on the Path of Power and the Inner Voice [the tenents of
which are essentially: "You are better than everyone else"] in to pose
and a Ventrue elder wasn't a huge stretch. He's also dripping in
disciplines that say "do what i say", "you really like me" and "you
can't hurt me, don't even try". Poor lil Kestrell isn't in his
league.
The irony is, we've probably spent more time on this discussion that
the actual "artist" spent on the portait in question, let alone the
rationalisation she made for doing such a half-arsed job. :)
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> Here is the thing--photoshop art is, ya know, quick. And as a result,
> cheap. Which means more art for the same amount of money. Which means
> stable, low prices for the product. I'm in no way in favor of an all
> photoshop art game or anything, but if the occasional photoshop
> portrait means that someone gets in 12 pieces instead of 10 in the
> same time and for the same cost, well, I'm ok with that.
Perhaps so. Every set has at least one piece of god-awful artwork, so
this theory rings true.
However, I question the logic of using one of these cheap photoshopped
filter jobs as the first card released to promote your new set.
librarian
The Prisci sub-referendum is tied, so no 3 votes in favor or against.
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
http://myworld.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auct...@superfuncards.com
librarian
>
> No, no, that isn't what I'm saying. The people who do the photoshop
> art also tend to do non photoshop art as well. And I suspect that, in
> the long run, WW is like "Hey! We need X pieces of art for Y amount of
> money in Z amount of time!" and the response is "Ok, I can do that,
> but some of it is going to be photoshopy, rather than hand painted..."
>
> It takes time to do illustrations, and I suspect that with as much
> illustration as is necessary for a given CCG set, folks don't actually
> get paid that much per piece. If the occasional photoshop piece is
> mixed in in the name of making it all work, well, there ya go.
>
> -Peter
>
>
Let's play make-believe.
Late July, 2006. Imagine if you will, the deadline for the art for 3rd
edition is looming, let's say it's within a few hours, or at the
outside, a day.
Katie McCaskill, art director at White Wolf, is satisfied with the art
for this set - all done, ready to be zipped and e-mailed to the printer
in China. All of a sudden LSJ (or someone) e-mails and says "How did
the art for the new promo vamp look?" And Katie thinks to herself,
"What the f**k? Promo vamp? First time I heard of it!" Being the
consumate professional, instead of pushing back the deadline of 3rd even
further, she whips together a passable photoshop job for the role of
Kestrelle Hayes. Since no one else is around that night as she burns
the midnight oil, she has to use a self-portrait.
Or conversely, things might have gone like this:
Katie McCaskill is in a rage. The final piece of art for 3rd edition
isn't even for the set itself, but is instead for the new promo vamp.
And the &*!%# artist who was supposed to do it has decided they have
carpel tunnel from playing too much Halo 2 on their XBox and won't be
able to hit the deadline. Again. For the 4th time.
"F**k it," she says, "I'll do it, and we can put this project to bed and
start working on the Sword of Caine art." Hours pass, and after quick
use of some technological implements around the deserted office, she
zips the file up and sends it to the Chinese printer. Deadline saved.
This looks classically not like saving money, but saving time. And that
it is the art director at WW, who we know can do quality work (Lorrie
Dunsirn) clinches it for me. Why? Because who would have a)
responsibility for art being in on time, b) ability to do quick work
using tools around the office and c) opportunity to get it done just
under the wire because she works there? Art Director Katie McCaskill.
Motive, Means, Opportunity - mystery solved.
I think that's what happened. But we'll never know...
Klai...@gmail.com
That whole screw the masquerade and revel in being a monster thing is
just crap that the sabbat elders feed to the younger members of the
sect. The elders of sabbat are not all that diffrent from the elders
of the camarilla. The sabbat elders have good reason to do that too,
as if the younger ones would stop for a moment to think, they would
realize that the whole 'freedom' thing that sabbat merchandises goes a
wee bit against the fact that the elders are STILL running the show in
sabbat side just the same as in the camarilla side.
Also no matter how screwed up you look like, even the most hideous
nosferatu can pass as a human with right application of obfuscate.
(and yes I know Kestrelle doesn't have obfuscate, on the card at
least, she might have it in the rpg as of course not nearly all of the
discplines of the vamp from rpg are on the cards).
Finally, Kestrelle is a member of the Black Hand, which is certainly
not your average shovelheads but a fricking elite special forces of
the sabbat, so they pick the right kind of people to it and train them
well to do their job, be it smashing someones face in, or perhaps to
pass as human to be able to gather info or whatever.
Teeka
> No, no, that isn't what I'm saying. The people who do the photoshop
> art also tend to do non photoshop art as well. And I suspect that, in
> the long run, WW is like "Hey! We need X pieces of art for Y amount of
> money in Z amount of time!" and the response is "Ok, I can do that,
> but some of it is going to be photoshopy, rather than hand painted..."
That's exactly what I got from your first post. Perhaps I was not
being clear myself. Going along with your hypothetical conversation,
let's say it's artist A who's on the phone in the above bit.
WW: Hey! We need X pieces of art in Z amount of time!
A: Ok, I can do that, but some of it is going to be photoshoppy,
rather than hand painted...
WW: can't go for that, dude. No photoshop, sorry. How much non-
photoshop could you do?
A: uhm... X - n, I guess.
WW: how much would you normally charge?
A: <answers amount>
WW: Right, ok, we'll get back to ya.
-WW hangs up phone and calls artist B.
WW: Hey! We need X pieces of art in Z amount of time!
B: that's not enough time, I'm afraid. I could do X - p pieces in Z
time, max.
WW: how much would you normally charge?
B: <answers amount>
WW: hmmm. Ok, we'll get back to ya.
-WW, while hanging up and calling C, realize that the amounts that A
and B can do combined (X-n + X-p) is more than X. WW further realize,
that artist C is not as great as A or B. His art is mediocre, but
alright.
WW: Hey! We need X pieces of art in Z amount of time!
C: no problem.
WW: how much would you normally charge?
C: <answers amount>
WW: we're considering other people as well, as usual. We'll get back
to ya.
WW hangs up and has a little meeting.
...
Of course, I'd imagine that there'd be far, far more than 3 artists WW
could call. There's a gazillion artists out there, so there has to be
a more than needed amount that would want to, and be able to, make art
for a CCG. So in reality, there's be quite a few A-type, B-type, and C-
type artists to be called before deciding what to do.
First, any single C-type artist, as well as any combination of A's and
B's, demanding way more than Y should be excluded.
Second, I'd say that it HAS to be possible to find either a single C-
type artist who can do X art in Z time for Y pay, or a combination of
A-type and B-type artists who would, combined, do the same.
Then, and last, you choose which "C" or "A+B combination" you want,
and give them the job.
> It takes time to do illustrations,
of course. we couldn't be having this conversation without realizing
that.
and I suspect that with as much
> illustration as is necessary for a given CCG set, folks don't actually
> get paid that much per piece.
Which is probably true, although no one (artist or WW) has ever
confirmed this. Also, I know quite a few freelance artists myself and
know for a fact that art very rarely comes at a fixed price. It all
depends on what the job is, how much exposure it will get the artist,
how badly they need the money, how much this job will interfere with
other works in progress, etc.
Whenever an artist gets an offer to do illustrations for a one-time
thing (which a CCG expansion is, barring reprints), there will be
negotiations between would-be employer and artist. We'd have some give-
and-take, and in the end the employer would either say "deal" or
"sorry, but you're just too expensive" and call the next artist. This
is, I'd say, an important part of miss McCaskill's job.
If the occasional photoshop piece is
> mixed in in the name of making it all work, well, there ya go.
Again, only true if there is no other way. Which there must be.
I see photoshop as an easy way out. For the artist as well as the
employer/art director. Calling all those B-type and C-type artists to
get the dedired result takes way more effort than just calling Cris
Shy, knowing that he'll always just poop out a couple of photoshops
whenever he's pressed for time. This extra effort is, again, part of
miss McCaskill's job, IMO.
Of course, getting a crappy photoshop in at the very last minute
because of unforseen circumstances (artist's illness, material
problems, theft) is totally cool. Can't blame anyone for things like
that. But that cannot possibly be true for all those photoshops we've
seen.
-Teeka
p.s. sorry for the crappy cut and paste on this reply. hope it works.