Mask of a Thousand Faces + Pentex Loves You! / Club Illusion
John Best
I had a cursory look for this, but no dice (I'm not sure if its not
been asked before or if the terms I used were too specific).
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Relevant card texts:
Club Illusion
Master: unique location. 1 pool.
When any anarch vampire declares a bleed action, he or she can burn 1
blood to get +1 bleed on that action (only usable once each action).
Pentex(TM) Loves You!
Master: unique location. 2 pool
You may tap this card and choose a Sabbat vampire. Once during the
current action, the chosen vampire may burn 1 blood to get +1 bleed.
Mask of a Thousand Faces
Action Modifier
obf:
Only usable by a ready, untapped vampire other than the acting minion
who is capable of performing the action. Not usable if any action
modifiers or other effects have been used that could not have been
used if this vampire were the acting vampire. Untap the acting minion
and tap this vampire instead. The action continues with this vampire
as the acting minion.
OBF:
As above, with +1 stealth.
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Scenario #1.
Club Illusion is in play. Minion A declares a bleed for 1. They burn a
blood as per Club Illusion to increase the bleed to 2. A block is
declared. Minion B plays Mask of 1k Faces at superior to take over as
the acting minon at +1 steath. The block fails. The action resolves
as:
1. A bleed for 1, the window to burn a blood for Club illusion has
passed, the original acting minion doesn't regain the blood they paid.
2. A bleed for 1, the window to burn a blood for Club illusion has
passed, the original acting minion regains the blood they paid.
3. A bleed for 2, Minion A regains a blood, Minion B burns one since
they have become the acting minion, and in effect would have burned
one at the point of declaration
4. A bleed for 2, Minion A has burned a blood to increase it, Minion B
takes over after the window for declaration has closed, but before
resolution.
Of all the outcomes, I suspect its actually 1. Despite increasing the
bleed for minion A, its B that's really bleeding, and since its the
same action, and past the point of declaration, Club Illusion is no
longer relevant. Minion A has already burned the blood, they can't get
it back now.
Similarly, Pentex Loves You!
Scenario #2
PLY! is in play. Minion A declares a bleed for 1. PLY! is tapped
during the action and Minion A chosen to be allowed to burn a blood to
increase the bleed. Blood is burned to increase bleed to 2 . Block
declared. Mask of 1k Faces is played by Minion B at superior. Block
fails.
Now we'll leave aside the fact that PLY! could have been tapped just
before action resolution, and the blood burned then by minion 2. Given
the sequence above the action resolves as:
1. A bleed for 1. Minion A was chosen for PLY! and it's irrelevant
that they're no longer bleeding. They don't get the blood they burned
back.
2. A bleed for 1. Minion A was chosen for PLY! and it's irrelevant
that they're no longer bleeding. They get the blood they burned back
since they are not bleeding.
3. A bleed for 1, BUT if Minion A bleeds, they will be bleeding for 1
additionally native due to PLY!
4. A bleed for 2, since the "Minion A" that was chosen for PLY! was
really Minion B in a silly hat, ergo it was that minion that was
chosen. Minion A gains a blood, Minion B burns one.
In this case, I think 1 is the most likely. Initially I thought 3, but
PLY specifies "the current action".
Hope its not too confused. Advice appreciated.
LSJ
4.
4.
John Flournoy
> > really Minion B in a silly hat, ergo it was that minion that was
> > chosen. Minion A gains a blood, Minion B burns one.
>
> > In this case, I think 1 is the most likely. Initially I thought 3, but
> > PLY specifies "the current action".
>
> 4.
Wait, so the original acting minion retroactively gets a blood back,
and the newly-acting minion has to spend one?
Does this mean that if Minion A had played Elder Intervention for
stealth (paying a blood), and Minion B masks it, suddenly B has to pay
a blood that A gets back?
I was under the impression that cards and effects already played (and
payed for) by Minion A stayed paid for by Minion A, even if minion B
later Masks to be the acting minion.
-John Flournoy
D.J.
> John Best wrote:
> > Scenario #1.
(Club Illusion - snip)
> > 4. A bleed for 2, Minion A has burned a blood to increase it, Minion B
> > takes over after the window for declaration has closed, but before
> > resolution.
>
> 4.
This one I get. But...
(Scenario 2, Pentex Loves You!)
> > 4. A bleed for 2, since the "Minion A" that was chosen for PLY! was
> > really Minion B in a silly hat, ergo it was that minion that was
> > chosen. Minion A gains a blood, Minion B burns one.
>
> 4.
Huh? Minion A was specifically chosen. You don't have to choose an
actively-bleeding minion. I don't get how this transfers to Minion
B. Can you explain further?
(I'd expected the response to the PLY situation to be "You can't play
Mask; Minion A used an effect, granted by PLY!, that was unavailable
to Minion B." Clearly not, but...)
- D.J.
LSJ
>>> 4. A bleed for 2, since the "Minion A" that was chosen for PLY! was
>>> really Minion B in a silly hat, ergo it was that minion that was
>>> chosen. Minion A gains a blood, Minion B burns one.
>>> In this case, I think 1 is the most likely. Initially I thought 3, but
>>> PLY specifies "the current action".
>> 4.
>
> Wait, so the original acting minion retroactively gets a blood back,
> and the newly-acting minion has to spend one?
Sorry, no. Didn't read the change there.
5. A bleed for two.No further blood movement.
LSJ
No blood movement, but otherwise it has text like Club Illusion, and works
similarly.
wumpus
There appears to be a difference in the text: Club Illusion gives +1
bleed to the action, while Pentex gives +1 bleed to the minion.
I would've ruled that Minion B couldn't take over the Pentex bleed,
but I don't understand how Mask interacts with vampires with inherent
bleed, strength, or other specials, and so don't play with it any
more...
Alex