Secure Haven qn
salem
Does Tribute to the Master cost me a pool?
Can my predator play Summon the Abyss?
Does Sermon of Caine cost me a pool if I am moving some of the blood
from another ready vampire TO the Secure vampire?
ta,
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
Timlagor
> Say i have a ready vampire with a secure haven.
>
> Does Tribute to the Master cost me a pool?
No because it isn't directed at your secure vampire particularly.
> Can my predator play Summon the Abyss?
Yes -again it's not directed.
> Does Sermon of Caine cost me a pool if I am moving some of the blood
> from another ready vampire TO the Secure vampire?
Again I think it's free because the card is not directed specifically at
that vampire (if it has a target it must be the one you are moving the
blood off) -I think you would have to pay to move blood FROM the secure
vampire though.
LSJ
Correct all around.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Timlagor
> Timlagor wrote:
> >>Say i have a ready vampire with a secure haven.
> >>Does Tribute to the Master cost me a pool?
> >
> > No because it isn't directed at your secure vampire particularly.
> >
> >>Can my predator play Summon the Abyss?
> >
> > Yes -again it's not directed.
> >
> >>Does Sermon of Caine cost me a pool if I am moving some of the blood
> >>from another ready vampire TO the Secure vampire?
> >
> > Again I think it's free because the card is not directed specifically at
> > that vampire (if it has a target it must be the one you are moving the
> > blood off) -I think you would have to pay to move blood FROM the secure
> > vampire though.
>
> Correct all around.
Awww. You make me feel warm all over ;-D
salem
<Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
Secure Haven [DS:C2, FN:PS, CE:PM, Anarchs:PAB]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location. Haven.
Put this card on a minion you control. This minion cannot be affected
by (D) actions. Any Methuselah burns an additional pool when playing
master cards on (or that target) this minion. Burn this card if this
minion enters torpor. A minion can have only one haven.
>LSJ expounded:
>> Timlagor wrote:
>> >>Say i have a ready vampire with a secure haven.
>> >>Does Tribute to the Master cost me a pool?
>> >
>> > No because it isn't directed at your secure vampire particularly.
what if the secure vampire is the only one i control?
Secure Haven says '...(or that target)...'. Surely cards that include
the Secure one as part of their effect are targetting the vampire,
even if it's not exclusively targetting it.
>> >>Can my predator play Summon the Abyss?
>> >
>> > Yes -again it's not directed.
Summon the Abyss [Sabbat:R]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 3 blood
Discipline: Obtenebration
[obt] (D) Each ready vampire controlled by your prey burns 1 blood.
[OBT] As above, but this action is at +1 stealth
It is directed. It's not directed against the Secure Vampire
specifically, but it is still directed.
However, latest card text for secure haven is merely "This minion
cannot be affected by (D) actions". So I guess the predator CAN play
Summon the Abyss, but the secure vampire won't burn a blood?
What if the Secure vampire is the only one I control?
And presumably if the Secure vampire is the only untapped one i
control, it won't tap for a Propoganda at [PRE] or Spirit Marionette
at [obe]?
>> >>Does Sermon of Caine cost me a pool if I am moving some of the blood
>> >>from another ready vampire TO the Secure vampire?
>> >
>> > Again I think it's free because the card is not directed specifically at
>> > that vampire (if it has a target it must be the one you are moving the
>> > blood off) -I think you would have to pay to move blood FROM the secure
>> > vampire though.
What about playing the Rack and choosing the Secure vampire? Rack
doesn't go on the Secure one, but it does Choose it, so i guess it
costs 1?
What about Toreador Grand Ball? "Put this card in play. Choose 2 ready
Toreador you control.". It doesn't choose the Secure vampire
exclusively, but it does explicitly choose it. Obviously it should
cost an extra pool.
However, is this different from a Tribute to the Master, which instead
of choosing 2, chooses 'all'?
I don't think people are thinking deeply enough about these issues. :)
Sure, we all know how we think it works, and how it should work, but
is that the way it _does_ work with the latest card texts?
Timlagor
> On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:06:41 +0100, Timlagor
> <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
> Secure Haven [DS:C2, FN:PS, CE:PM, Anarchs:PAB]
> Cardtype: Master
> Cost: 1 pool
> Master: unique location. Haven.
> Put this card on a minion you control. This minion cannot be affected
> by (D) actions. Any Methuselah burns an additional pool when playing
> master cards on (or that target) this minion. Burn this card if this
> minion enters torpor. A minion can have only one haven.
>
> >LSJ expounded:
> >> Timlagor wrote:
> >> >>Say i have a ready vampire with a secure haven.
> >> >>Does Tribute to the Master cost me a pool?
> >> >
> >> > No because it isn't directed at your secure vampire particularly.
>
> what if the secure vampire is the only one i control?
> Secure Haven says '...(or that target)...'. Surely cards that include
> the Secure one as part of their effect are targetting the vampire,
> even if it's not exclusively targetting it.
NO they are not targetting. They are just affecting -targetting involves
a degree of exclusivity.
> >> >>Can my predator play Summon the Abyss?
> >> >
> >> > Yes -again it's not directed.
>
> Summon the Abyss [Sabbat:R]
> Cardtype: Action
> Cost: 3 blood
> Discipline: Obtenebration
> [obt] (D) Each ready vampire controlled by your prey burns 1 blood.
> [OBT] As above, but this action is at +1 stealth
>
> It is directed. It's not directed against the Secure Vampire
> specifically, but it is still directed.
> However, latest card text for secure haven is merely "This minion
> cannot be affected by (D) actions". So I guess the predator CAN play
> Summon the Abyss, but the secure vampire won't burn a blood?
> What if the Secure vampire is the only one I control?
I hadn't noticed that and it looks like you ought to be right :-)
I'm sure LSJ will be along shortly.
> And presumably if the Secure vampire is the only untapped one i
> control, it won't tap for a Propoganda at [PRE] or Spirit Marionette
> at [obe]?
Spirit Marionette it would tap for though. SM (obe) is directed at the
Methuselah (bleed) with an incidental effect that isn't a D action.
Same for Propaganda
> >> >>Does Sermon of Caine cost me a pool if I am moving some of the blood
> >> >>from another ready vampire TO the Secure vampire?
> >> >
> >> > Again I think it's free because the card is not directed specifically at
> >> > that vampire (if it has a target it must be the one you are moving the
> >> > blood off) -I think you would have to pay to move blood FROM the secure
> >> > vampire though.
>
> What about playing the Rack and choosing the Secure vampire? Rack
> doesn't go on the Secure one, but it does Choose it, so i guess it
> costs 1?
>
> What about Toreador Grand Ball? "Put this card in play. Choose 2 ready
> Toreador you control.". It doesn't choose the Secure vampire
> exclusively, but it does explicitly choose it. Obviously it should
> cost an extra pool.
> However, is this different from a Tribute to the Master, which instead
> of choosing 2, chooses 'all'?
Choosing is not targetting -none of these cost anything.
LSJ
> salem expounded:
>>On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:06:41 +0100, Timlagor
>><Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
>>Secure Haven [DS:C2, FN:PS, CE:PM, Anarchs:PAB]
>>>>Timlagor wrote:
>>>>>>Say i have a ready vampire with a secure haven.
>>>>>>Does Tribute to the Master cost me a pool?
>>>>>
>>>>>No because it isn't directed at your secure vampire particularly.
>>>>
>>what if the secure vampire is the only one i control?
Having the only Animalism retainer in play won't make superior
Shepherd's Innocence directed, either.
>>Secure Haven says '...(or that target)...'. Surely cards that include
>>the Secure one as part of their effect are targetting the vampire,
>>even if it's not exclusively targetting it.
>
> NO they are not targetting. They are just affecting -targetting involves
> a degree of exclusivity.
Correct.
Smiling Jack doesn't cost any more, either, even if you end up pulling a
blood off of the Secured vampire.
>>>>>>Can my predator play Summon the Abyss?
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes -again it's not directed.
>>>>
>>It is directed. It's not directed against the Secure Vampire
>>specifically, but it is still directed.
Sorry, "at the vampire" seemed implied in the statement to me.
>>However, latest card text for secure haven is merely "This minion
>>cannot be affected by (D) actions". So I guess the predator CAN play
>>Summon the Abyss, but the secure vampire won't burn a blood?
>>What if the Secure vampire is the only one I control?
>
> I hadn't noticed that and it looks like you ought to be right :-)
> I'm sure LSJ will be along shortly.
Hmm. Stealth migration.
Interesting.
It should've said "cannot be the target of (D) actions", but there
you go. The Predator can play Summon the Abyss, but it won't affect
the Secured vampire.
>>And presumably if the Secure vampire is the only untapped one i
>>control, it won't tap for a Propoganda at [PRE] or Spirit Marionette
>>at [obe]?
>
> Spirit Marionette it would tap for though. SM (obe) is directed at the
> Methuselah (bleed) with an incidental effect that isn't a D action.
> Same for Propaganda
No. There're both directed actions, so the Secured minion is protected.
>>>>>>Does Sermon of Caine cost me a pool if I am moving some of the blood
>>>>>
>>>>>>from another ready vampire TO the Secure vampire?
>>>>>
>>>>>Again I think it's free because the card is not directed specifically at
>>>>>that vampire (if it has a target it must be the one you are moving the
>>>>>blood off) -I think you would have to pay to move blood FROM the secure
>>>>>vampire though.
>>>>
>>What about playing the Rack and choosing the Secure vampire? Rack
>>doesn't go on the Secure one, but it does Choose it, so i guess it
>>costs 1?
Correct.
>>What about Toreador Grand Ball? "Put this card in play. Choose 2 ready
>>Toreador you control.". It doesn't choose the Secure vampire
>>exclusively, but it does explicitly choose it. Obviously it should
>>cost an extra pool.
Correct.
>>However, is this different from a Tribute to the Master, which instead
>>of choosing 2, chooses 'all'?
Tribute doesn't choose any. There is no choice.
> Choosing is not targetting -none of these cost anything.
Incorrect.
Timlagor
<snip>
> > Choosing is not targetting -none of these cost anything.
> Incorrect.
I'm a bit confused again.
So if Propaganda is played against you, you don't tap the Secure vampire
if it's the only untapped ready vampire but you MUST tap another one if
there is one?
It is a migratin and not a misprint then?
LSJ
> LSJ expounded:
> <snip>
>
>>>Choosing is not targetting -none of these cost anything.
>>
>>Incorrect.
>
>
> I'm a bit confused again.
> So if Propaganda is played against you, you don't tap the Secure vampire
> if it's the only untapped ready vampire but you MUST tap another one if
> there is one?
Yes.
> It is a migratin and not a misprint then?
No misprint. Not sure what the migration you're thinking of is.
Timlagor
> Timlagor wrote:
> > LSJ expounded:
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>Choosing is not targetting -none of these cost anything.
> >>
> >>Incorrect.
> >
> >
> > I'm a bit confused again.
> > So if Propaganda is played against you, you don't tap the Secure vampire
> > if it's the only untapped ready vampire but you MUST tap another one if
> > there is one?
>
> Yes.
>
> > It is a migratin and not a misprint then?
>
> No misprint. Not sure what the migration you're thinking of is.
I thought the old Secure Haven card said could 'not be target of' D
actions -just checked a DS one which says "affected by".