LSJ Primal Instinct Rotschreck Shadow Feint
vermillian
rush a vampire controled by my prey. I disguise in an ivory bow. My
prey disguises in a flame thrower. I strike with bow, I play Rotshrek.
A.) Does he have the opportunity to strike?
B.) I don't play Rotshrek, he strikes flame thrower. Can I announce
Rotshrek before he does?
2.) Same thing only this time I shadow feint and strike coma (I've
obviously received a skill card somewhere), my prey strikes flame. He
plays Rotshrek. I go to torpor because we haven't resolved the coma
yet, yes?
3.) As 1.) except he plays shadow feint. I'd still like to strike Bow
and Rotshrek, but he'd like to do flame and Rotshrek himself. Which is
it?
4.) As 1.) but I strike steal equipment, he SCE, I play primal
instinct and strike Bow and Rotshrek. But has combat ended before I
have the opportunity to change my strike (I doubt it)?
5.) As 1.) I stike dodge, he strikes flame, he Rotshreks. Do I have
time to Primal Instinct and strike bow and Rotshrek?
Thanks for your answers. Just trying to confuse myself.
~SV
PS what about an answer about that Jake Washington and Compel Spirit
saying "Card" and not ally thing?
LSJ
>
> 1.) My Lucian acts via Madness Network during my predator's turn to
> rush a vampire controled by my prey. I disguise in an ivory bow. My
> prey disguises in a flame thrower. I strike with bow, I play Rotshrek.
>
> A.) Does he have the opportunity to strike?
No.
> B.) I don't play Rotshrek, he strikes flame thrower. Can I announce
> Rotshrek before he does?
Yes. [1.6.1.6]
> 2.) Same thing only this time I shadow feint and strike coma (I've
> obviously received a skill card somewhere), my prey strikes flame. He
> plays Rotshrek. I go to torpor because we haven't resolved the coma
> yet, yes?
Yes.
> 3.) As 1.) except he plays shadow feint. I'd still like to strike Bow
> and Rotshrek, but he'd like to do flame and Rotshrek himself. Which is
> it?
You. [1.6.1.6]
> 4.) As 1.) but I strike steal equipment, he SCE, I play primal
> instinct and strike Bow and Rotshrek. But has combat ended before I
> have the opportunity to change my strike (I doubt it)?
No (your doubt is good).
> 5.) As 1.) I stike dodge, he strikes flame, he Rotshreks. Do I have
> time to Primal Instinct and strike bow and Rotshrek?
No. But you can play PI before he plays Rotschreck. [1.6.1.6]
>
> Thanks for your answers. Just trying to confuse myself.
>
> ~SV
>
> PS what about an answer about that Jake Washington and Compel Spirit
> saying "Card" and not ally thing?
Answered already.
Jake cannot be retrieved by Compel the Spirit.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
vermillian
> vermillian wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your answers. Just trying to confuse myself.
> >
> > ~SV
> >
> > PS what about an answer about that Jake Washington and Compel Spirit
> > saying "Card" and not ally thing?
>
> Answered already.
> Jake cannot be retrieved by Compel the Spirit.
It was answered already but no logic went in to the answer. Its just
"because I say so". Is there a logical excersize why "that card" can't
be retrieved?
~SV
XZealot
"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f987c6cd.03013...@posting.google.com...
I have to agree with Vermillian on this one. Compel the spirit does not
specifically say that the card has to be an ally card in the ashheap.
Revalent Text
+1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been
burned since your last turn.
Move the ***card*** from your ash heap to your hand.
Move the ****card**** from your ash heap to your ready region, even if this
vampire doesn't meet the requirements, if any, of the card (use the normal
version if it requires a Discipline). Move X life counters from the blood
bank to the card, where X is the number of life printed on the card. If a
retainer is chosen, it must be played on the acting minion
Jake Washington was an ally, I controlled that has been burned since my last
turn. So he fufills the initial requirements of the card.
When it says move the card from the ashheap, it makes no requirements that
that card has to be an ally card in the ashheap. Rather it merely refers to
it as "the card". It is fairly cut and dry.
--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
LSJ
As stated, Jake is not an ally in the ash heap.
Compel the Spirit doesn't retrieve master cards.
Jason Babbitt
>vermillian wrote:
>> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
>news:<3E39ACAA...@white-wolf.com>...
>>
>>>vermillian wrote:
>>>
>>>>Thanks for your answers. Just trying to confuse myself.
>>>>
>>>>~SV
>>>>
>>>>PS what about an answer about that Jake Washington and Compel Spirit
>>>>saying "Card" and not ally thing?
>>>
>>>Answered already.
>>>Jake cannot be retrieved by Compel the Spirit.
>>
>>
>> It was answered already but no logic went in to the answer. Its just
>> "because I say so". Is there a logical excersize why "that card" can't
>> be retrieved?
>
>As stated, Jake is not an ally in the ash heap.
>Compel the Spirit doesn't retrieve master cards.
Since LSJ probably doesn't have time to clarify, I'll give it a shot.
"Compel the Spirit
+1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been
burned since your last turn.
Move the card from your ash heap to your hand...."
Note the phrase "the card". The word "the" in this case is a definite article.
"1 a : — used as a function word to indicate that a **following noun** or
noun equivalent is definite or has been **previously specified by context** or
by circumstance"
(from Mirriam Webster, emphasis mine)
So as you can see, the word "card" is actually a reference to the previously
specified "retainer or ally you control".
Jason Babbitt
XZealot
"Jason Babbitt" <dcij...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20030131121833...@mb-ch.aol.com...
> LSJ vte...@white-wolf.com wrote:
> >vermillian wrote:
> >> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> >news:<3E39ACAA...@white-wolf.com>...
> >>
> >>>vermillian wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Thanks for your answers. Just trying to confuse myself.
> >>>>
> >>>>~SV
> >>>>
> >>>>PS what about an answer about that Jake Washington and Compel Spirit
> >>>>saying "Card" and not ally thing?
> >>>
> >>>Answered already.
> >>>Jake cannot be retrieved by Compel the Spirit.
> >>
> >>
> >> It was answered already but no logic went in to the answer. Its just
> >> "because I say so". Is there a logical excersize why "that card" can't
> >> be retrieved?
> >
> >As stated, Jake is not an ally in the ash heap.
> >Compel the Spirit doesn't retrieve master cards.
>
> Since LSJ probably doesn't have time to clarify, I'll give it a shot.
>
> "Compel the Spirit
>
> +1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been
> burned since your last turn.
>
> Move the card from your ash heap to your hand...."
>
> Note the phrase "the card". The word "the" in this case is a definite
article.
>
> noun equivalent is definite or has been **previously specified by
context** or
> by circumstance"
>
> (from Mirriam Webster, emphasis mine)
>
> So as you can see, the word "card" is actually a reference to the
previously
> specified "retainer or ally you control".
You are takeing that sentence fragment out of context with the rest of the
sentence. READ THE REST OF THE SENTENCE.
At the time it reference "the card" it means a retainer or ally I
controlled which had been burnt since your last turn. Jake Washington
qualifies as an ally that I controlled which has been burnt since my last
turn.
Jason Babbitt
>"Jason Babbitt" <dcij...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:20030131121833...@mb-ch.aol.com...
>>
>> "Compel the Spirit
>>
>> +1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been
>> burned since your last turn.
>>
>> Move the card from your ash heap to your hand...."
>>
>> Note the phrase "the card". The word "the" in this case is a definite
>article.
>>
>> "1 a : - used as a function word to indicate that a **following noun** or
>> noun equivalent is definite or has been **previously specified by
>context** or
>> by circumstance"
>>
>> (from Mirriam Webster, emphasis mine)
>>
>> So as you can see, the word "card" is actually a reference to the
>previously
>> specified "retainer or ally you control".
>
>You are takeing that sentence fragment out of context with the rest of the
>sentence. READ THE REST OF THE SENTENCE.
>
>At the time it reference "the card" it means a retainer or ally I
>controlled which had been burnt since your last turn. Jake Washington
>qualifies as an ally that I controlled which has been burnt since my last
>turn.
But at the time of playing Compel the Spirit, Jake Washington is not "a
retainer or ally you control [that] has been burned since your last turn". He
is a master card.
Jason Babbitt
XZealot
> >You are takeing that sentence fragment out of context with the rest of
the
> >sentence. READ THE REST OF THE SENTENCE.
> >
> >At the time it reference "the card" it means a retainer or ally I
> >controlled which had been burnt since your last turn. Jake Washington
> >qualifies as an ally that I controlled which has been burnt since my last
> >turn.
>
> But at the time of playing Compel the Spirit, Jake Washington is not "a
> retainer or ally you control [that] has been burned since your last turn".
He
> is a master card.
First of all, you dont' control anything that has been burned. Ashheaps,
nor the cards in them are not considered to be controlled. Secondly, you're
wrong. Jake Washington is a retainer or ally that I did control that was
burned, therefore furfilling the requirements of the card.
LSJ has ruled otherwise, but it is a ruling not the card-text.
Joshua Duffin
"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:v3lepk5...@corp.supernews.com...
[Jason wrote]
> > But at the time of playing Compel the Spirit, Jake Washington is not "a
> > retainer or ally you control [that] has been burned since your last turn".
> > He is a master card.
>
> First of all, you dont' control anything that has been burned. Ashheaps,
> nor the cards in them are not considered to be controlled.
Right, which is why Compel the Spirit's wording is probably not
the best. It would be more clear as something like "if a retainer
or ally you controlled". Though that might not actually resolve
this issue by itself.
> Secondly, you're
> wrong. Jake Washington is a retainer or ally that I did control that was
> burned, therefore furfilling the requirements of the card.
But if the reference "the card" is equivalent to "the [retainer
or ally] card", that does explain it, since Jake Washington is
not an ally card in your ash-heap - so you can't move "the ally
card" from your ash heap to hand/play, because there is no such
"ally card".
Josh
spirit's advocate
XZealot
> > Secondly, you're
> > wrong. Jake Washington is a retainer or ally that I did control that
was
> > burned, therefore furfilling the requirements of the card.
>
> But if the reference "the card" is equivalent to "the [retainer
> or ally] card", that does explain it, since Jake Washington is
> not an ally card in your ash-heap - so you can't move "the ally
> card" from your ash heap to hand/play, because there is no such
> "ally card".
Once again you have taken it out of its definitive context
"Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been
burned since your last turn"
The card says that you can take Jake Washington out of you ashheap, but LSJ
has ruled otherwise, so the point is rather moot.
Jason Babbitt
>> But at the time of playing Compel the Spirit, Jake Washington is not "a
>> retainer or ally you control [that] has been burned since your last turn".
>He
>> is a master card.
>
>First of all, you dont' control anything that has been burned. Ashheaps,
>nor the cards in them are not considered to be controlled.
If you are going to argue this point, then the card is NEVER playable, because
it states "a retainer or ally you **control** that has been burned since your
last turn". It is, of course, not possible to control a card that has been
burned because cards that have been burned are in your ash heap and cards in
your ash heap are not controlled. Maybe it should be changed to "Only usable
if a retainer or ally you controlled has been..."?
>Secondly, you're
>wrong. Jake Washington is a retainer or ally that I did control that was
>burned, therefore furfilling the requirements of the card.
>
>LSJ has ruled otherwise, but it is a ruling not the card-text.
ARGH, "the card" refers to an ally or retainer card, but NOT a master card.
Here, what do you think of this alternate card text:
"Move a retainer or ally card you controlled that has been burned since your
last turn from your ash heap to your hand"
My argument is that the above text is equivalent to the current text (except
for the control vs. controlled debacle) because of the current use of the
definite article "the".
Jason
LSJ
Correct.
Another example of the brevity preference.
Note the original, equivalent (to the ruling) less ambiguous but less
brief, text:
Superior: As above, but you may move the ally or retainer to the active
region.
Patrick van der Reest
> vermillian wrote:
> >>
> >>>PS what about an answer about that Jake Washington and Compel Spirit
> >>>saying "Card" and not ally thing?
> >>
> >>Answered already.
> >>Jake cannot be retrieved by Compel the Spirit.
> >
> >
> > It was answered already but no logic went in to the answer. Its just
> > "because I say so". Is there a logical excersize why "that card" can't
> > be retrieved?
>
> As stated, Jake is not an ally in the ash heap.
> Compel the Spirit doesn't retrieve master cards.
Where in the text does it require that it's an ally card, pray? I can
see why you want to limit Compel the Spirit, but unless an errata to
CtS happens by, card text allows recovery of Jake in my book.
Patrick
Columbus, OH
Darky
> vermillian wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E39ACAA...@white-wolf.com>...
> >
> >>vermillian wrote:
> >>
> >>>Thanks for your answers. Just trying to confuse myself.
> >>>
> >>>~SV
> >>>
> >>>PS what about an answer about that Jake Washington and Compel Spirit
> >>>saying "Card" and not ally thing?
> >>
> >>Answered already.
> >>Jake cannot be retrieved by Compel the Spirit.
> >
> >
> > It was answered already but no logic went in to the answer. Its just
> > "because I say so". Is there a logical excersize why "that card" can't
> > be retrieved?
>
> As stated, Jake is not an ally in the ash heap.
> Compel the Spirit doesn't retrieve master cards.
will there be an errata on compel the spirit to make this obvious to
the rest of mankind?
-Bram Vink
just wondering.
Derek Ray
vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) mumbled something about:
>LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E39ACAA...@white-wolf.com>...
>> Answered already.
>> Jake cannot be retrieved by Compel the Spirit.
>
>It was answered already but no logic went in to the answer. Its just
>"because I say so". Is there a logical excersize why "that card" can't
>be retrieved?
Because in the ash heap, he's "that master card", not "that ally".
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.