Parmenides Question
Ben Swainbank
"until your next untap phase". Does this mean he comes back just
before your untap (and then untaps with the rest of the team)? Or does
he come back during your untap phase, after everyone has untapped, and
does not untap that turn?
-Ben Swainbank
LSJ
>When Parmenides comes into play, he runs off and joins your predator
>"until your next untap phase". Does this mean he comes back just
>before your untap (and then untaps with the rest of the team)?
Yes. He comes back at the point your untap phase begins (just
as you're about to untap all your cards).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Sean William Wade Harvey
says...
> bswai...@my-deja.com (Ben Swainbank) wrote:
> >When Parmenides comes into play, he runs off and joins your predator
> >"until your next untap phase". Does this mean he comes back just
> >before your untap (and then untaps with the rest of the team)?
>
> Yes. He comes back at the point your untap phase begins (just
> as you're about to untap all your cards).
Is it just me or is Parmenides worse than getting smacked with
a sock full of poo? I mean, really! One player here tore the card
up and tossed it in the trash last night when he read it closer.
Walter Denny
"Sean William Wade Harvey" <sha...@magma.ca> wrote in message
news:MPG.159d74b85...@usenet.magma.ca...
read Assamite clan newsletter vol 2 issue 1 post above. They extole the
greatnes of this particular vamp.
Derek Ray
It's just you. Why do you think he sucks so bad? What's going to
happen to him? He's going to bleed you for 1, most likely, meaning
that he actually costs 5 to bring out and comes out a turn late.
In exchange, he has superior Celerity, +1 strength (this means BIG
THUG, by the way, since an entire combat deck can be based around
"Blur/Taste"), and inferior Quietus (making him an effective Assamite
thug).
-- Derek
Reyda
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com
> >> bswai...@my-deja.com (Ben Swainbank) wrote:
> >> >When Parmenides comes into play, he runs off and joins your predator
> >> >"until your next untap phase". Does this mean he comes back just
> >> >before your untap (and then untaps with the rest of the team)?
> >>
> >> Yes. He comes back at the point your untap phase begins (just
> >> as you're about to untap all your cards).
> >
> >Is it just me or is Parmenides worse than getting smacked with
> >a sock full of poo? I mean, really! One player here tore the card
> >up and tossed it in the trash last night when he read it closer.
>
> It's just you. Why do you think he sucks so bad? What's going to
> happen to him? He's going to bleed you for 1, most likely, meaning
> that he actually costs 5 to bring out and comes out a turn late.
i remember a recent game when my prey gave me Parmenides. I minion tapped
him and made him hunt, so i gained 4 pool. But it doesn't happen often. Most
of time, he will just bleed, as derek said. Just don't influence him out
when there's a haven on your famous vamp =)
> In exchange, he has superior Celerity, +1 strength (this means BIG
> THUG, by the way, since an entire combat deck can be based around
> "Blur/Taste"), and inferior Quietus (making him an effective Assamite
> thug).
Honestly i find him slightly better than Jimmy Dunn now. Because even with
only one combat cards in hand he's still a threat : most of times, a blur or
a psyche is what it takes to torporize a 4/5 cap. He's the smallest 2
strength guy (tie with Hadrian garrick), but has the disciplines it takes to
win numerous fights. Compare this 4 Cap with his !brujah counterpart, Victor
Tolliver !
if you really want to trash that card, trade it with me for any 4 cap
vampire =)
reyda
PS : by the way !! LSJ !!!
what happens when you transfer out two Parmenides during your influence
phase ? they go out simultaneously (illagal now) or one after another, thus
making a contest with your predator ?
LSJ
> what happens when you transfer out two Parmenides during your influence
> phase ? they go out simultaneously (illagal now) or one after another, thus
> making a contest with your predator ?
You order them: Parmenides A comes out and goes to your predator. Parmenides
B comes out, goes to your predator, and is burned.
Or you bring them both out (buring the second).
Gomi no Sensei
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>Reyda wrote:
>> what happens when you transfer out two Parmenides during your influence
>> phase ? they go out simultaneously (illagal now) or one after another, thus
>> making a contest with your predator ?
>
>You order them: Parmenides A comes out and goes to your predator. Parmenides
>B comes out, goes to your predator, and is burned.
Wouldn't Parmenides 2 be contested before his text-mandated control shift
could kick in?
gomi
--
Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray
What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby
Wes
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>
> It's just you. Why do you think he sucks so bad? What's going to
> happen to him? He's going to bleed you for 1, most likely, meaning
> that he actually costs 5 to bring out and comes out a turn late.
A funny thing happened to Bernie B. when he played Parmenides at the Lansing
pre-release.
His predator (Ravnos) took him in the untap, placed a Fortiude card on him,
hunted to capacity and then Force of Willed to bleed for 2. As I recall,
Parmenides was diablerized the next turn by Khalil, who was in turn burned
in a Bloodhunt and then Daemonically possessed by me.
It was quite funny I thought.
Most of the time though, you're not going to get messed with this badly.
Cheers,
WES
LSJ
>
> In article <3B33E005...@white-wolf.com>,
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >Reyda wrote:
> >> what happens when you transfer out two Parmenides during your influence
> >> phase ? they go out simultaneously (illagal now) or one after another, thus
> >> making a contest with your predator ?
> >
> >You order them: Parmenides A comes out and goes to your predator. Parmenides
> >B comes out, goes to your predator, and is burned.
>
> Wouldn't Parmenides 2 be contested before his text-mandated control shift
> could kick in?
That's like saying Jimmy Dunn would be contested before his text-mandated
replacement kicks in.
No. When you move Parmedies is moved from your uncontrolled region, your
predator takes control of him.
Sean William Wade Harvey
lor...@yahoo.com says...
> >Is it just me or is Parmenides worse than getting smacked with
> >a sock full of poo? I mean, really! One player here tore the card
> >up and tossed it in the trash last night when he read it closer.
>
> It's just you. Why do you think he sucks so bad? What's going to
> happen to him? He's going to bleed you for 1, most likely, meaning
> that he actually costs 5 to bring out and comes out a turn late.
Sure, that may be the most likely case, but I really, really don't like
risking anything worse. You've wasted (yes, wasted) 4 transfers and 4
pool to give your predator a vampire to do with as they will for a full
table turn. Minion Tap is only the beginning of the pain - the worst case
scenarios are more than enough for me not to bother ever putting this
chump in my crypt. Why give your predator more advantages then they
already have/need?
With all this high-level talk about table destabilizing through stupid
actions, don't you think giving your predator more tools with which to
work you over and defend against your grandpredator is just a wee bit
destabilizing? Or - let me guess - that probably doesn't count.
> In exchange, he has superior Celerity, +1 strength (this means BIG
> THUG, by the way, since an entire combat deck can be based around
> "Blur/Taste"), and inferior Quietus (making him an effective Assamite
> thug).
He's a BIG THUG attacking you for a turn. Here's a scenario - he gets a
Dominate master played on him, then comes in to bleed with Computer
Hacking. Or he gets an Obf master played on him, comes in to bleed, I
block and he gets a concealed weapon, gorks my blocker, then gets
Sacrificial Lamb'ed. Or blah blah blah any number of horror scenarios
that I'd really rather not suffer through for a 4-cap with CEL qui and +1
strength.
If he cost my predator 3 or 4 pool when the transfer happened, gave them
a nervous tic for the rest of the evening and forced them to buy me a
drink during the game, I might consider playing with Parmenides.
Otherwise, he can sit nice and tidy in the box with all the other
wallpaper as far as I'm concerned.
All right, commence with the personal attacks, since I disagreed and am
obviously an idiot.
Gomi no Sensei
Sean William Wade Harvey <sha...@magma.ca> wrote:
>All right, commence with the personal attacks, since I disagreed and am
>obviously an idiot.
Naah. You're just really, really risk-averse. Stay out of stocks
and get into bonds. Municipal paper can be nice if you pick the right
cities.
Combat decks are for day-trader types who like the lose big/win big
type of situations.
There's room for all sorts of investor^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hplayers at the
table. So Parmie isn't for you. Don't play with him.
Some people, though, are going to figure the odds of Horror Scenarios
A through N are low enough to risk it in order to get Parmie's
obvious benefits (+1 strength, CEL qui, 4 pool) on their side.
Given the utterly chaotic nature of the SF Bay Area metagame, I think
the odds of sitting downstream from a CEL-using thug deck or weenie
Computer Hacking bleed deck are fairly low, and it's not because
no-one plays those decks around here, either.
But, to reiterate: I totally respect your judgement that he's too
big a risk for you. It's just that different people weigh risks
differently, so we're going to differ on how awful/negligible
Parmie's drawback is.
Derek Ray
Harvey) wrote:
>In article <jad7jto088akft4m0...@4ax.com>,
>lor...@yahoo.com says...
>> >Is it just me or is Parmenides worse than getting smacked with
>> >a sock full of poo? I mean, really! One player here tore the card
>> >up and tossed it in the trash last night when he read it closer.
>>
>> It's just you. Why do you think he sucks so bad? What's going to
>> happen to him? He's going to bleed you for 1, most likely, meaning
>> that he actually costs 5 to bring out and comes out a turn late.
>
>Sure, that may be the most likely case, but I really, really don't like
>risking anything worse. You've wasted (yes, wasted) 4 transfers and 4
You have to risk something in order to win. You risk something by
transferring any vampire out. Why not just play with an all-Masters
deck, and that way you don't risk ANY of your pool?
>pool to give your predator a vampire to do with as they will for a full
>table turn. Minion Tap is only the beginning of the pain - the worst case
>scenarios are more than enough for me not to bother ever putting this
>chump in my crypt. Why give your predator more advantages then they
>already have/need?
Really? What worst case scenarios are you thinking of? So far I've
heard someone putting a Fortitude skill card on him, hunting, and then
bleeding with Force of Will to send him back in torpor. That's pretty
damn unlikely, when you get right down to it.
He can't commit diablerie, so he can't get killed that way.
He can't bleed for more than 1 with his default skills.
"chump"? I think not.
>With all this high-level talk about table destabilizing through stupid
>actions, don't you think giving your predator more tools with which to
>work you over and defend against your grandpredator is just a wee bit
>destabilizing? Or - let me guess - that probably doesn't count.
He's a tool that is worthless to 95% of the decks out there.
>> In exchange, he has superior Celerity, +1 strength (this means BIG
>> THUG, by the way, since an entire combat deck can be based around
>> "Blur/Taste"), and inferior Quietus (making him an effective Assamite
>> thug).
>
>He's a BIG THUG attacking you for a turn. Here's a scenario - he gets a
>Dominate master played on him, then comes in to bleed with Computer
If my predator is foolish enough to waste a Dominate master on MY
VAMPIRE, that sounds great to me. Especially when I just casually
block his zero-stealth action (a vampire with dom/qui/CEL cannot
generate stealth except through Alacrity, which is another
ridiculously small coincidence, especially for a deck that just played
a Dominate master)
>Hacking. Or he gets an Obf master played on him, comes in to bleed, I
>block and he gets a concealed weapon, gorks my blocker, then gets
What are you doing blocking a bleed for 1, anyway? Come on, man,
THINK. A vampire with obf/qui/CEL does not mysteriously produce bleed
bonuses! We're back to the situation above - he bleeds you for 1.
BIG DEAL.
>Sacrificial Lamb'ed. Or blah blah blah any number of horror scenarios
>that I'd really rather not suffer through for a 4-cap with CEL qui and +1
>strength.
So what horror scenarios are these that can't be avoided with ten
seconds' worth of thought, or that really don't actually exist or are
ever likely to happen?
>If he cost my predator 3 or 4 pool when the transfer happened, gave them
>a nervous tic for the rest of the evening and forced them to buy me a
>drink during the game, I might consider playing with Parmenides.
>Otherwise, he can sit nice and tidy in the box with all the other
>wallpaper as far as I'm concerned.
Fine. Trade me all of yours, then? I've got some lovely commons that
I'm sure you'll need. Or probably some other vampires, even.
-- Derek
Wes
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> He can't commit diablerie, so he can't get killed that way.
> He can't bleed for more than 1 with his default skills.
Even blocking him most of the time would probably be safe...
Since you are presumably playing with some element of CEL in your deck, you
can either move to range or Strike: Dodge. Unless your predator also has
CEL, they're likely to just wave at you.
I guess it depends on what type of deck you have behind you. If you're
sitting in front of a CEL/pot rush deck... bad idea. Anything else, you're
probably ok unless they happen to have some funky combo. The FOR/Hunt/Force
of Will is not going to happen very often I'd wager... it was pretty
unusual.
Though we should also mention that at another pre-release someone's
Parmenides was burned by their predator's Khobar Towers. Ouch.
By keeping an eye out on the type of deck your predator is playing, I think
you should be able to judge whether to influence out Parmesan accordingly.
Cheers,
WES
Reyda
"Sean William Wade Harvey" <sha...@magma.ca
> Otherwise, he can sit nice and tidy in the box with all the other
> wallpaper as far as I'm concerned.
If you want to exchange your stock of parmenides for any other vampires
(except rare ones =) ), i'lll be glad to trade with you !
reyda
cEvin Key
> Even blocking him most of the time would probably be safe...
>
> Since you are presumably playing with some element of CEL in your deck, you
> can either move to range or Strike: Dodge. Unless your predator also has
> CEL, they're likely to just wave at you.
>
> I guess it depends on what type of deck you have behind you. If you're
> sitting in front of a CEL/pot rush deck... bad idea. Anything else, you're
> probably ok unless they happen to have some funky combo. The FOR/Hunt/Force
> of Will is not going to happen very often I'd wager... it was pretty
> unusual.
>
> Though we should also mention that at another pre-release someone's
> Parmenides was burned by their predator's Khobar Towers. Ouch.
um yeah... but then again, we could probably say that the guy who brought
him out in the first didn't judge the situation very well, since his pred
had to already have the towers in play when he put out parmie. that's what
i would call a bad idea .
> By keeping an eye out on the type of deck your predator is playing, I think
> you should be able to judge whether to influence out Parmesan accordingly.
>
> Cheers,
> WES
so far the worst possible scenario i can see is either a minion tap or a
rave. i have to admit that it's bothering, but it doesn't make parmie
completely useless imo, as i don't consider it THAT bad (parmie should
have at least 1 blood left no matter what, and with a taste and a rush in
hand, should be easily overcome).
my 2 cents,
zarrak
--
to wade the pools of malcontent is to acknowledge the loss of what could be.
Frederick Scott
>
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:59:18 GMT, sha...@magma.ca (Sean William Wade
> Harvey) wrote:
>
> >In article <jad7jto088akft4m0...@4ax.com>,
> >lor...@yahoo.com says...
> >> >Is it just me or is Parmenides worse than getting smacked with
> >> >a sock full of poo? I mean, really! One player here tore the card
> >> >up and tossed it in the trash last night when he read it closer.
> >>
> >> It's just you. Why do you think he sucks so bad? What's going to
> >> happen to him? He's going to bleed you for 1, most likely, meaning
> >> that he actually costs 5 to bring out and comes out a turn late.
> >
> >Sure, that may be the most likely case, but I really, really don't like
> >risking anything worse. You've wasted (yes, wasted) 4 transfers and 4
> >table turn. Minion Tap is only the beginning of the pain - the worst case
> >scenarios are more than enough for me not to bother ever putting this
> >chump in my crypt. Why give your predator more advantages then they
> >already have/need?
>
> Really? What worst case scenarios are you thinking of? So far I've
> heard someone putting a Fortitude skill card on him, hunting, and then
> bleeding with Force of Will to send him back in torpor.
Um, try Golcanda.
But I agree with you. Parmenides is an interesting vampire. I'm certainly
not ready to write him off.
Fred
Reyda
"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com>
> > Really? What worst case scenarios are you thinking of? So far I've
> > heard someone putting a Fortitude skill card on him, hunting, and then
> > bleeding with Force of Will to send him back in torpor.
>
> Um, try Golcanda.
oh my God... It's horrible what we can read this days on the news group....
just a reminder :
Golconda: Inner Peace
Cardtype: Master
*Only usable on a vampire with a capacity above 7*. Remove the vampire from
play. His or her controller gains pool equal to the vampire's capacity. The
controller may cancel this card by burning 2 pool.
Frederick Scott
>
> "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com>
>
> > > Really? What worst case scenarios are you thinking of? So far I've
> > > heard someone putting a Fortitude skill card on him, hunting, and then
> > > bleeding with Force of Will to send him back in torpor.
> >
> > Um, try Golcanda.
>
> oh my God... It's horrible what we can read this days on the news group....
Sorry. It was just a thought. I didn't think to actually go look at a Golconda
to see if there was a restriction I had forgotten about.
> just a reminder :
>
> Golconda: Inner Peace
> Cardtype: Master
> *Only usable on a vampire with a capacity above 7*. Remove the vampire from
> play. His or her controller gains pool equal to the vampire's capacity. The
> controller may cancel this card by burning 2 pool.
Correction noted. Thanks for the clue.
Fred
Jon Stahler
"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3B40AF83...@netcom.com...
> Reyda wrote:
> >
> > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com>
> >
> > > > Really? What worst case scenarios are you thinking of? So far I've
> > > > heard someone putting a Fortitude skill card on him, hunting, and
then
> > > > bleeding with Force of Will to send him back in torpor.
> > >
> > > Um, try Golcanda.
> >
> > oh my God... It's horrible what we can read this days on the news
group....
>
> Sorry. It was just a thought. I didn't think to actually go look at a
Golconda
> to see if there was a restriction I had forgotten about.
Two words (and my favorite card of the new set)
Khobar Towers
Derek Ray
<sta...@staff.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:3B40AF83...@netcom.com...
>> Reyda wrote:
>> >
>> > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com>
>> >
>> > > > Really? What worst case scenarios are you thinking of? So far I've
>> > > > heard someone putting a Fortitude skill card on him, hunting, and
>then
>> > > > bleeding with Force of Will to send him back in torpor.
>> > >
>
>Two words (and my favorite card of the new set)
>
>Khobar Towers
Crowbar Towers: usable during untap phase.
Anyone influencing out Parmenides when his predator has a Crowbar
Towers in play has made a certifiably, 100% USRDA "dumb-assed" move.
If your predator doesn't already have the Crowbar in play, then he
can't get it in play in time to zap Parmenides.
Sorry, I'm still just not going to worry at all about Crowbar in this
situation. Especially since I'll probably get Parmenides early if I
can manage.
-- Derek
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