Spoiler/Question #2: Marthe Dizier
Jozxyqk
!Toreador - 10 cap
pro AUS CEL OBF PRE
Sabbat. Black Hand.
When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card
she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed.
Does it have to be from the ash heap?
Can she return a Weighted Walking Stick to your hand after she "equipped"
it, basically as a refill?
And what about a hypothetical combat card which gets removed from game
(I can't think of one)?
Joshua Duffin
"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message
news:ai3qc.14436$qA.1814723@attbi_s51...
> Marthe Dizier
> !Toreador - 10 cap
> pro AUS CEL OBF PRE
> Sabbat. Black Hand.
> When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a
card
> she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed.
>
> Does it have to be from the ash heap?
Related question: If the card played during that combat belongs to
another Methuselah (under Agaitas' effect for example) can she still
move it to your hand from that Meth's ash heap? If she can, does it go
into your "normal" hand (presumably yes) rather than the "Agaitas
virtual hand"? If so, and the card is played again, does it go to your
own ash heap, or to the owning Meth's? (Presumably the owning Meth's,
as per [1.1.2] in the Black Hand rulebook, in the definition of the term
"Burn".) I guess the players just have to use some method of tracking
the ownership of that particular copy of the card if this happens?
> Can she return a Weighted Walking Stick to your hand after she
"equipped"
> it, basically as a refill?
I can't answer this, I don't think there's any precedent. :-)
> And what about a hypothetical combat card which gets removed from game
> (I can't think of one)?
Clearly she cannot do this; it is the definition of "removed from the
game" that no in-game effects can do anything with cards that have been
removed from the game. They're not in the game anymore. [rulebook,
[1.1.2] again.]
The situation could arise if you stole a card from your prey's ash heap
with Erciyes Fragment and Marthe played it in combat - the card would be
removed from game and she would not be able to retrieve it (even if she
can retrieve stuff from other people's ash heaps). :-)
Oh, another "cards in hand" question: When Gerard Rafin's ability is
used ("During your untap phase, if Gerard is ready, you may look at 1
card at random from your prey's hand.") and your prey has cards "in his
hand" from Agaitas' ability, is it possible for the face-up card(s) to
be randomly chosen for Gerard's controller to look at? It looks like
yes, based on Revelations' precedent of 6-Apr-2001. So I suppose some
random method other than "hold out my hand and pick a card to look at"
should be used - rolling a die or something?
Josh
sounds unlikely, doesn't it? actually came up at saturday's
tournament... and a prerelease to boot!
UniqueMaster
"Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> wrote in message
news:2gs0ugF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message
> news:ai3qc.14436$qA.1814723@attbi_s51...
> > Marthe Dizier
> > !Toreador - 10 cap
> > pro AUS CEL OBF PRE
> > Sabbat. Black Hand.
> > When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a
> card
> > she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed.
> >
> > Does it have to be from the ash heap?
>
> Related question: If the card played during that combat belongs to
> another Methuselah (under Agaitas' effect for example) can she still
> move it to your hand from that Meth's ash heap? If she can, does it go
> into your "normal" hand (presumably yes) rather than the "Agaitas
> virtual hand"? If so, and the card is played again, does it go to your
> own ash heap, or to the owning Meth's? (Presumably the owning Meth's,
> as per [1.1.2] in the Black Hand rulebook, in the definition of the term
> "Burn".) I guess the players just have to use some method of tracking
> the ownership of that particular copy of the card if this happens?
>
> > Can she return a Weighted Walking Stick to your hand after she
> "equipped"
> > it, basically as a refill?
>
> I can't answer this, I don't think there's any precedent. :-)
Why a refill? She's got CEL. She's breaking them AND getting one back in
your hand for later!
> > And what about a hypothetical combat card which gets removed from game
> > (I can't think of one)?
>
> Clearly she cannot do this; it is the definition of "removed from the
> game" that no in-game effects can do anything with cards that have been
> removed from the game. They're not in the game anymore. [rulebook,
> [1.1.2] again.]
>
> The situation could arise if you stole a card from your prey's ash heap
> with Erciyes Fragment and Marthe played it in combat - the card would be
> removed from game and she would not be able to retrieve it (even if she
> can retrieve stuff from other people's ash heaps). :-)
Could also arise if your predator used Erciyes to steal a card from your
ashheap, you stole the Fragment, used it to play your card...
> Oh, another "cards in hand" question: When Gerard Rafin's ability is
> used ("During your untap phase, if Gerard is ready, you may look at 1
> card at random from your prey's hand.") and your prey has cards "in his
> hand" from Agaitas' ability, is it possible for the face-up card(s) to
> be randomly chosen for Gerard's controller to look at? It looks like
> yes, based on Revelations' precedent of 6-Apr-2001. So I suppose some
> random method other than "hold out my hand and pick a card to look at"
> should be used - rolling a die or something?
Ugh.
If you're boofing your prey with Agaitas, you should have the decency to not
use Gerard's ability.
Stop boofing your prey with Agaitas.
--
Mike Ooi
"You have left the world. Click to continue."
LSJ
> !Toreador - 10 cap
> pro AUS CEL OBF PRE
> Sabbat. Black Hand.
> When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card
> she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed.
>
> Does it have to be from the ash heap?
Yes, sorry. It should say "from your ash heap".
> Can she return a Weighted Walking Stick to your hand after she "equipped"
> it, basically as a refill?
>
> And what about a hypothetical combat card which gets removed from game
> (I can't think of one)?
No. Things which are removed from the game are out of reach.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
> Related question: If the card played during that combat belongs to
> another Methuselah (under Agaitas' effect for example) can she still
> move it to your hand from that Meth's ash heap?
No. From your ash heap only.
> Oh, another "cards in hand" question: When Gerard Rafin's ability is
> used ("During your untap phase, if Gerard is ready, you may look at 1
> card at random from your prey's hand.") and your prey has cards "in his
> hand" from Agaitas' ability, is it possible for the face-up card(s) to
> be randomly chosen for Gerard's controller to look at? It looks like
> yes, based on Revelations' precedent of 6-Apr-2001. So I suppose some
> random method other than "hold out my hand and pick a card to look at"
> should be used - rolling a die or something?
Rolling a 7-sided die would do, for a seven-card hand, yes.
http://www.free-definition.com/Polyhedral-dice.html
LSJ
> Related question: If the card played during that combat belongs to
> another Methuselah (under Agaitas' effect for example) can she still
> move it to your hand from that Meth's ash heap?
No. From your ash heap only.
> Oh, another "cards in hand" question: When Gerard Rafin's ability is
> used ("During your untap phase, if Gerard is ready, you may look at 1
> card at random from your prey's hand.") and your prey has cards "in his
> hand" from Agaitas' ability, is it possible for the face-up card(s) to
> be randomly chosen for Gerard's controller to look at? It looks like
> yes, based on Revelations' precedent of 6-Apr-2001. So I suppose some
> random method other than "hold out my hand and pick a card to look at"
> should be used - rolling a die or something?
Rolling a 7-sided die would do, for a seven-card hand, yes.
Daneel
> the ownership of that particular copy of the card if this happens?
Probably similar to the way cards traded with Succubus Club work.
Usually (though not always) sleeve colorations help to distinguish.
Bye,
Daneel
Joshua Duffin
"UniqueMaster" <sh...@removethistexas.net> wrote in message
news:xr2dnStkMOa...@texas.net...
> Ugh.
>
> If you're boofing your prey with Agaitas, you should have the decency
to not
> use Gerard's ability.
>
> Stop boofing your prey with Agaitas.
No no, I was boofing my prey with Agaitas, but my predator had Gerard.
At the time we actually assumed that he wouldn't "randomly" choose the
cards that are "considered to be in your hand, to be played or discarded
as normal", on the theory that maybe they were only in my hand for
purposes of playing or discarding, not also for randomly looking at with
Gerard.
Also I'm not sure we had a die with at least 7 sides handy. :-)
Josh
combing conversation for hints?
Joshua Duffin
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:eb4eb7f8.04051...@posting.google.com...
> "Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> wrote:
> > Related question: If the card played during that combat belongs to
> > another Methuselah (under Agaitas' effect for example) can she still
> > move it to your hand from that Meth's ash heap?
>
> No. From your ash heap only.
It seems like card text without ruling/errata would let her do it from
any location other than "out of game"? Does this necessarily rise to
the level of requiring errata/ruling? Would she be overpowered if she
could "re-play" cards you had already stolen from another Methuselah
once?
I guess your answer implies that she would. :-)
> > So I suppose some
> > random method other than "hold out my hand and pick a card to look
at"
> > should be used - rolling a die or something?
>
> Rolling a 7-sided die would do, for a seven-card hand, yes.
> http://www.free-definition.com/Polyhedral-dice.html
Wow, I've never seen one of those. It sounds... unwieldy. An
eight-sided die might be easier, even if you have to reroll an eighth of
the time. :-)
Josh
not prism-shaped
Snapcase
> Wow, I've never seen one of those. It sounds... unwieldy. An
> eight-sided die might be easier, even if you have to reroll an eighth of
> the time. :-)
http://www.dozensofgames.com/7sideddice.html
It rolls much better than you'd think.
--
-Snapcase
Pat Lusk
> used ("During your untap phase, if Gerard is ready, you may look at 1
> card at random from your prey's hand.") and your prey has cards "in his
> hand" from Agaitas' ability, is it possible for the face-up card(s) to
> be randomly chosen for Gerard's controller to look at? It looks like
> yes, based on Revelations' precedent of 6-Apr-2001. So I suppose some
> random method other than "hold out my hand and pick a card to look at"
> should be used - rolling a die or something?
>
>
> Josh
>
> sounds unlikely, doesn't it? actually came up at saturday's
> tournament... and a prerelease to boot!
>
>
It came up in my local playgroup when I had a raptor-owning minion in combat
with one of Agaitas's controller's minions. We handled it by numbering the
cards in hand 1-2-3-4 and cards on the table 5-6-7 and then asked somebody
at the next table to pick a number blindly between 1 and 7. Might not have
been the fastest solution, but it was amusing. :)
(A d8, ignoring 8, would have been more elegant, I suppose.)
- Pat
P.S. Now that Proph League is over, this might be an appropriate quiz :
Agaitas and raptors both in play... which Proph League rule was in effect
that night? :)
Daneel
> http://www.free-definition.com/Polyhedral-dice.html
After all these years of gaming and I'm still in for surprises. I was
baffled when I saw d30s and d100s, so I guess I should've seen this
coming.
Lacking a d7 though you could use the method we sometimes use (not
sure if it is legal in all points):
You put your cards in your hand face down on the table. You put the
cards in your virtual hand on top of them (face up). You pick up the
batch, and do some light shuffling (to preserve the integrity of your
"borrowed" cards). Here comes the tricky part - you should place the
batch (when the shuffling is concluded) in a fashion that it is
invisible to the player who does the picking. Since this usually
implies moving it below the table level, this part is a bit tricly...
The Methuselah doing the random picking simply picks a number from 1
to X (X = your hand size). Counting from the top, you select the card
that was just picked (e.g. a pick of "1" means the topmost card, a
pick of "3" means the third from the top). Conclude any picking
effects, then place the batch back on the table, separate (virtual
hand cards should still be face-up), and pick up your regular hand.
Bye,
Daneel
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:eb4eb7f8.04051...@posting.google.com...
>
>>"Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> wrote:
>>
>>>Related question: If the card played during that combat belongs to
>>>another Methuselah (under Agaitas' effect for example) can she still
>>>move it to your hand from that Meth's ash heap?
>>
>>No. From your ash heap only.
>
> It seems like card text without ruling/errata would let her do it from
> any location other than "out of game"? Does this necessarily rise to
> the level of requiring errata/ruling? Would she be overpowered if she
> could "re-play" cards you had already stolen from another Methuselah
> once?
>
> I guess your answer implies that she would. :-)
Errata/ruling, yes.
There are other options that would (likely, IMO, etc.) be too powerful,
yes.
Joshua Duffin
"Pat Lusk" <patrick.l...@comcast.nyetspam.net> wrote in message
news:WtadnRnspJ6...@comcast.com...
> It came up in my local playgroup when I had a raptor-owning minion in
combat
> with one of Agaitas's controller's minions. We handled it by numbering
the
> cards in hand 1-2-3-4 and cards on the table 5-6-7 and then asked
somebody
> at the next table to pick a number blindly between 1 and 7. Might not
have
> been the fastest solution, but it was amusing. :)
>
> (A d8, ignoring 8, would have been more elegant, I suppose.)
I also like Daneel's method of putting the cards all in a pile (so you
can only see the top face-down card) and having the "random discard
forcing" Meth choose a number between one and seven (or whatever),
counting down from #1 on the top of the pile. (I think I've read about
that idea before, now that I think of it - might've been Derek Ray
mentioning it.)
> P.S. Now that Proph League is over, this might be an appropriate quiz
:
> Agaitas and raptors both in play... which Proph League rule was in
effect
> that night? :)
Hmm... could it have been the one where you didn't even need
Brinksmanship in your deck? :-)
Josh
saw that one last, so "luckily" no one ever had the chance to build
decks to it
Timlagor
Should have 7 and 1 on its big sides.
Timlagor
> You put your cards in your hand face down on the table. You put the
> cards in your virtual hand on top of them (face up). You pick up the
> batch, and do some light shuffling (to preserve the integrity of your
> "borrowed" cards). Here comes the tricky part - you should place the
> batch (when the shuffling is concluded) in a fashion that it is
> invisible to the player who does the picking. Since this usually
> implies moving it below the table level, this part is a bit tricly...
Player picking averts their gaze while you shuffle. You put the cards in
a neat pile on the table. Cover with hand or a card from the
ashheap/cryps/wherever.
Or just roll a d8 and rerol the 8s. OR get your elder library out first
:)
Pat Lusk
<snip>
> > P.S. Now that Proph League is over, this might be an appropriate quiz
> :
> > Agaitas and raptors both in play... which Proph League rule was in
> effect
> > that night? :)
>
> Hmm... could it have been the one where you didn't even need
> Brinksmanship in your deck? :-)
>
>
> Josh
>
> saw that one last, so "luckily" no one ever had the chance to build
> decks to it
>
Mr. Duffin gets it in one. :)
- Pat
salem
<patrick.l...@comcast.nyetspam.net> scrawled:
[snip]
>It came up in my local playgroup when I had a raptor-owning minion in combat
>with one of Agaitas's controller's minions. We handled it by numbering the
>cards in hand 1-2-3-4 and cards on the table 5-6-7 and then asked somebody
>at the next table to pick a number blindly between 1 and 7. Might not have
>been the fastest solution, but it was amusing. :)
I'm pretty sure that if you get your hand size reduced by someone
else's raptors, you may choose which cards to discard.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
"I like to play the field"-LSJ
Pat Lusk
"salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qabma09gktm2o4466...@4ax.com...
You're correct, of course. I was remembering the wrong card effect. I
realized my mistake right after I posted but figured I wouldn't bother to
correct the post until somebody noticed. :)
We used the "pick a number" method for the random card burned by Feline
Saboteur.
- Pat
Derek Ray
"Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> mumbled something about:
>I also like Daneel's method of putting the cards all in a pile (so you
>can only see the top face-down card) and having the "random discard
>forcing" Meth choose a number between one and seven (or whatever),
>counting down from #1 on the top of the pile. (I think I've read about
>that idea before, now that I think of it - might've been Derek Ray
>mentioning it.)
I don't recall ever saying something like that, but deckbot currently
uses a similar method; the cards in one's hand are numbered from 1 to 7,
and since you cannot change the order of the cards in your hand, they're
effectively random (ie unknown) as far as your opponent is concerned.
You use a command (/random 7) to get a number between 1 and 7, and then
the opponent discards that card -- the discard command also tells which
number card was discarded, so you can verify that it was the correct
number. *shrug* Fairly straightforward, and doesn't need to be too
complicated or anything.
-- Derek
a host is a host from coast to coast
and no one will talk to a host that's close
unless the host that isn't close
is busy, hung, or dead
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> uses a similar method; the cards in one's hand are numbered from 1 to 7,
> and since you cannot change the order of the cards in your hand, they're
> effectively random (ie unknown) as far as your opponent is concerned.
>
They're unknown, but certain deductions can be made about them. Card
number 1 has been in your hand the longest, so depending on card flow, you
could be waiting for a special occasion (Delaying Tactics), the right
combo (a stealth card), or to discard it (a second Giant's Blood).
LSJ
> Related question: If the card played during that combat belongs to
> another Methuselah (under Agaitas' effect for example) can she still
> move it to your hand from that Meth's ash heap?
No. From your ash heap only.
> Oh, another "cards in hand" question: When Gerard Rafin's ability is
> used ("During your untap phase, if Gerard is ready, you may look at 1
> card at random from your prey's hand.") and your prey has cards "in his
> hand" from Agaitas' ability, is it possible for the face-up card(s) to
> be randomly chosen for Gerard's controller to look at? It looks like
> yes, based on Revelations' precedent of 6-Apr-2001. So I suppose some
> random method other than "hold out my hand and pick a card to look at"
> should be used - rolling a die or something?
Rolling a 7-side die would do, for a seven-card hand, yes.
http://www.free-definition.com/Polyhedral-dice.html
--
Raille
>
> Rolling a 7-sided die would do, for a seven-card hand, yes.
> http://www.free-definition.com/Polyhedral-dice.html
>
http://www.irony.com/mailroll.html
Good for when you have internet access handy.
Raille