Psyche
Talo...@hotmail.com
The superior can be played before or after replacing any "Do Not
Replace Until After Combat" cards. [LSJ 19990322]
As a recent discussion showed, Psyche is played as combat ends, not
after as Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction is.
Therefore, waiting to draw the 'do not replace cards until after
combat' would seem to open you up to acting minion plays of Hlurker
imo.
T
LSJ
> Psyche!
> The superior can be played before or after replacing any "Do Not
> Replace Until After Combat" cards. [LSJ 19990322]
>
> As a recent discussion showed, Psyche is played as combat ends, not
> after as Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction is.
It is played after combat, per a ruling a little further up in the list
from which you've quoted:
* The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a
combat card. [RTR 19980928]
It precedes the HL/FR timing by virtue of its oddity - a combat card
that is played outside of combat.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Talo...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>Talo...@hotmail.com <Talo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Psyche!
>> The superior can be played before or after replacing any "Do Not
>> Replace Until After Combat" cards. [LSJ 19990322]
>>
>> As a recent discussion showed, Psyche is played as combat ends, not
>> after as Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction is.
>
>It is played after combat, per a ruling a little further up in the list
>from which you've quoted:
>
>* The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a
>combat card. [RTR 19980928]
>
>It precedes the HL/FR timing by virtue of its oddity - a combat card
>that is played outside of combat.
>
My question then is, why doesn't the 'acting minion/controller gets
first opportunity to play cards at same step' kick in?'
Psyche, HL, and FR all start a new combat. Simply because one is a
combat card doesnt seem enough to override the above rule imo.
T
James Coupe
>>It precedes the HL/FR timing by virtue of its oddity - a combat card
>>that is played outside of combat.
>>
>
>My question then is, why doesn't the 'acting minion/controller gets
>first opportunity to play cards at same step' kick in?'
Because it's not the same step.
Pysche! goes in a small step of combat card playable immediately after
combat and beats other cards.
--
James Coupe Everybody knows that "No" means "Yes"
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Just like glasses come free on the NHS
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 But the more I look through them the more I see
13D7E668C3695D623D5D I'm becoming more like Alfie
Talo...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>In message <3c030d65.501410992@news>, Talo...@hotmail.com writes:
>>>It precedes the HL/FR timing by virtue of its oddity - a combat card
>>>that is played outside of combat.
>>>
>>
>>My question then is, why doesn't the 'acting minion/controller gets
>>first opportunity to play cards at same step' kick in?'
>
>Because it's not the same step.
>
>Pysche! goes in a small step of combat card playable immediately after
>combat and beats other cards.
>
You're on drugs.
All 3 are playable after combat. There is no ministep for combat
cards only. The rules team made the decision to go with psyche first
because it is combat card, not because of any mysterious 'mini combat'
step.
T
James Coupe
>>Because it's not the same step.
>>
>>Pysche! goes in a small step of combat card playable immediately after
>>combat and beats other cards.
>>
>
>You're on drugs.
Not currently, no.
>All 3 are playable after combat.
True; however, they are played in different phases after combat, such
that Psyche! will always beat Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
GreySeer
news:u+Pf0JK8xZ$7E...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <3bfe6069.1436494@news>, Talo...@hotmail.com writes:
> >>Because it's not the same step.
> >>
> >>Pysche! goes in a small step of combat card playable immediately after
> >>combat and beats other cards.
> >>
> >
> >You're on drugs.
>
> Not currently, no.
>
> >All 3 are playable after combat.
>
> True; however, they are played in different phases after combat, such
> that Psyche! will always beat Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
I think it would be easier if Psyche! followed the same template as
Telepathic Tracking. i.e. It is played during combat when combat is about to
end instead of some "mystery step" where you can play combat cards outside
of combat before any other action modifiers or reactions.
X_Zealot
> Telepathic Tracking. i.e. It is played during combat when combat is about
to
> end instead of some "mystery step" where you can play combat cards outside
> of combat before any other action modifiers or reactions.
>
I made a call earlier this week that stated that Hidden Lurker would trump
Psyche. It was an error, but in hindsight I agree with the ruling for a few
reasons.
1) obviously it is combat card. Therefore has a higher relation to the
interaction currently occuring (i.e. the current combat)
2) it is played as combat is ending rather than after combat has occured
(see card text)
3) such is the beauty of the english language (no offense intended to the
non-english speaking player of which I have had exceptionally excellent
contact with many who play the game as well as any native speaker). In that
the possibility exists that such innuendos exist withing the card text
itself.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
GreySeer
news:cHlL7.45251$Lo5.6...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> > I think it would be easier if Psyche! followed the same template as
> > Telepathic Tracking. i.e. It is played during combat when combat is
about
> to
> > end instead of some "mystery step" where you can play combat cards
outside
> > of combat before any other action modifiers or reactions.
> >
>
> I made a call earlier this week that stated that Hidden Lurker would trump
> Psyche. It was an error, but in hindsight I agree with the ruling for a
few
> reasons.
There's often rulings that I agree with because that's the way that I think
the card should function but that isn't always supported by my
interperetation of the text and/or rules. Fortunately there are others with
a better command over the english language ( and occasionally rules ) than I
who point out the error of my ways.
> 1) obviously it is combat card. Therefore has a higher relation to the
> interaction currently occuring (i.e. the current combat)
> 2) it is played as combat is ending rather than after combat has occured
> (see card text)
> 3) such is the beauty of the english language (no offense intended to the
> non-english speaking player of which I have had exceptionally excellent
> contact with many who play the game as well as any native speaker). In
that
> the possibility exists that such innuendos exist withing the card text
> itself.
Given the card text of Psyche! and the fact that the acting minion's
controller gets to play cards first. I would agree with your ruling and can
see why you made it.
It seems to me that this little window of oppourtunity to play Psyche! has
been created simply to allow Psyche! to beat cards like Hidden Lurker. I
think Psyche! should be re-worded to follow the Telepathic Tracking template
to something like.
[CEL] Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about
to end (with no uncancelled press to continue). Combat starts again. This
is considered an entirely new combat: weapons can contribute their maneuvers
for a second time, and so forth.
This eliminates the need for the "mystery step" and we don't see
inconsistencies like combat cards being played outside of combat.
LSJ
> It seems to me that this little window of oppourtunity to play Psyche! has
> been created simply to allow Psyche! to beat cards like Hidden Lurker. I
> think Psyche! should be re-worded to follow the Telepathic Tracking template
> to something like.
>
> [CEL] Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about
> to end (with no uncancelled press to continue). Combat starts again. This
> is considered an entirely new combat: weapons can contribute their maneuvers
> for a second time, and so forth.
>
> This eliminates the need for the "mystery step" and we don't see
> inconsistencies like combat cards being played outside of combat.
Problem: Telepathic Tracking should "trump" Psyche!. So those two should have
two different timing windows (as they currently do).
GreySeer
news:3BFE378A...@white-wolf.com...
> GreySeer wrote:
> > It seems to me that this little window of oppourtunity to play Psyche!
has
> > been created simply to allow Psyche! to beat cards like Hidden Lurker. I
> > think Psyche! should be re-worded to follow the Telepathic Tracking
template
> > to something like.
> >
> > [CEL] Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is
about
> > to end (with no uncancelled press to continue). Combat starts again.
This
> > is considered an entirely new combat: weapons can contribute their
maneuvers
> > for a second time, and so forth.
> >
> > This eliminates the need for the "mystery step" and we don't see
> > inconsistencies like combat cards being played outside of combat.
>
> Problem: Telepathic Tracking should "trump" Psyche!. So those two should
have
> two different timing windows (as they currently do).
I don't agree that it's necessearily for TT to trump Psyche! I'm not going
to argue why it should or shouldn't, there's no point, if that's the way the
designers want it then that's fine with me and therefore things will have to
remain as they are for it to work that way.
It doesn't bother me that TT beats Psyche! either, in fact, in some ways I
prefer it since I like to play Tzimisce :)
Flux
> It seems to me that this little window of oppourtunity to play Psyche! has
> been created simply to allow Psyche! to beat cards like Hidden Lurker. I
> think Psyche! should be re-worded to follow the Telepathic Tracking template
> to something like.
Funny, I recently proposed to LSJ, during a small email discussion, that the
reverse be done: that TT's wording were changed to match Psyche!'s, though I was
assuming Psyche! was now played during combat since I saw no justification or
need for it to be played after combat (more below).
> [CEL] Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about
> to end (with no uncancelled press to continue). Combat starts again. This
> is considered an entirely new combat: weapons can contribute their maneuvers
> for a second time, and so forth.
>
> This eliminates the need for the "mystery step" and we don't see
> inconsistencies like combat cards being played outside of combat.
I think that, with the current ruling regarding 'end of round/combat' effects
(ie, that you always have time to play them when combat ends [RTR 20001020]),
there's no need to make Psyche! playable after combat ends. To be honest, the
only reason I see for that 'clarification' regarding Psyche! now (though I truly
believe it should be considered a 'ruling', there's no reason to interpret card
text on Psyche! as meaning 'after combat') would be to prevent it from being
played against IotK, and even that could be justified differently.
At one time it made sense to say it was played after combat, since many effects
(IotK, Elysium, etc - but not S:CE) would end combat immediatelly and therefore
allow no time for Psyche! to be played, rendering it somewhat underpowered, but
with current rulings Psyche! should revert to being played in combat. A new
ruling/clarification could be made regarding IotK, which would still prevent
Psyche! from being played but now because it would start a second combat where a
combat was already about to start.
This would work to make me a lot happier regarding timing rules in VtES, which I
think have been getting very muddled lately (though what I would really like is
for [RTR 20001020] to be overturned, and the consequences for cards like Psyche!
and TT be carried out acording to the FIFO rule that applies to almost
everything else in VtES). :-P
Flux
Ben Peal
> GreySeer wrote:
> > It seems to me that this little window of oppourtunity to play Psyche! has
> > been created simply to allow Psyche! to beat cards like Hidden Lurker. I
> > think Psyche! should be re-worded to follow the Telepathic Tracking template
> > to something like.
> >
> > [CEL] Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about
> > to end (with no uncancelled press to continue). Combat starts again. This
> > is considered an entirely new combat: weapons can contribute their maneuvers
> > for a second time, and so forth.
> >
> > This eliminates the need for the "mystery step" and we don't see
> > inconsistencies like combat cards being played outside of combat.
>
> Problem: Telepathic Tracking should "trump" Psyche!. So those two should have
> two different timing windows (as they currently do).
However, I very much like the benefit of removing the weirdness of Psyche
being played as a combat card outside of combat. I don't care about what
should or should not trump what. Combat cards should be played during
combat, and only during combat. Stick to the mechanics of the game.
- Ben Peal, Prince of Boston
fu...@mindstorm.com
Talo...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
>>All 3 are playable after combat.
>
>True; however, they are played in different phases after combat, such
>that Psyche! will always beat Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
>
If it helps you to remember that Psyche beats the other two 'new
combat' cards that's fine.
But there is no such phase.
T
Talo...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
>Problem: Telepathic Tracking should "trump" Psyche!. So those two should have
>two different timing windows (as they currently do).
>
If you go with the acting meth gettinr priority to play such cards
first, as we usually do, then that's not a problem.
Speaking of which, I assume that principle would hold true for
determining who gets to play HLurker v FReaction first?
T
LSJ
> >two different timing windows (as they currently do).
> If you go with the acting meth gettinr priority to play such cards
> first, as we usually do, then that's not a problem.
?
Both TT and Psyche! are combats cards - they can be played by either combatant.
If they have the same timing window and the acting minion wants to play
Psyche!, then that will trump TT.
> Speaking of which, I assume that principle would hold true for
> determining who gets to play HLurker v FReaction first?
The "principle" is a rule. [1.6.1.6].
It holds in all cases where more than one Methuselah want to play
the next effect and all the effects in question are "simultaneous"
(i.e., have the same timing window).
James Coupe
>If you go with the acting meth gettinr priority to play such cards
>first, as we usually do, then that's not a problem.
The acting Methuselah always has priority within any given phase that a
card can be played.
Psyche!, Hidden Lurker, Telepathic Tracking and Fast Reaction do not
alter this; there are simply distinct phases that need to be understood.
James Coupe
>>>All 3 are playable after combat.
>>
>>True; however, they are played in different phases after combat, such
>>that Psyche! will always beat Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
>
>If it helps you to remember that Psyche beats the other two 'new
>combat' cards that's fine.
>But there is no such phase.
If there wasn't such a phase, it wouldn't beat them. QED
There is a phase where Psyche! is played that comes before the phase for
Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
--
GreySeer
I agree. Sometimes complications in timing are unavoidable due to the nature
of a card. In Psyche!'s case I think the complication is unnecessary, yes,
it would mean that TT vs Psyche! becomes a FIFO fight but, at least in
Psyche!'s case I don't see a problem with that.
Just as an aside, I've been involved on the receiving end of a lot of
"reactionary" combat and without grapple or owl companions, it can get damn
annying having to play cards first, at least in a FIFO Psyche! vs TT I'd
have an advantage by being the acting minion.
Talo...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>> Speaking of which, I assume that principle would hold true for
>> determining who gets to play HLurker v FReaction first?
>
>The "principle" is a rule. [1.6.1.6].
>It holds in all cases where more than one Methuselah want to play
>the next effect and all the effects in question are "simultaneous"
>(i.e., have the same timing window).
>
Which is why I have a problem with Psyche being made an exception to
that rule.
T
Talo...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>In message <3bffad7f.86718835@news>, Talo...@hotmail.com writes:
>>>>All 3 are playable after combat.
>>>
>>>True; however, they are played in different phases after combat, such
>>>that Psyche! will always beat Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
>>
>>If it helps you to remember that Psyche beats the other two 'new
>>combat' cards that's fine.
>
>>But there is no such phase.
>
>If there wasn't such a phase, it wouldn't beat them. QED
>
>There is a phase where Psyche! is played that comes before the phase for
>Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
>
They're played in the same phase james. After combat ends.
Psyche merely has priority because its combat card. Thus there is no
psyche 'phase'.
T
James Coupe
>>>But there is no such phase.
>>
>>If there wasn't such a phase, it wouldn't beat them. QED
>>
>>There is a phase where Psyche! is played that comes before the phase for
>>Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
>>
>
>
>They're played in the same phase james. After combat ends.
This is not true.
Cards which are played in the same phase, or timing step, resolve with
acting, reacting, others timing - as detailed in the rules book.
LSJ has made this abundantly clear. Indeed, his first post in the
thread made it abundantly clear that Psyche! has different timing to
Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
--
James Coupe When correctly viewed
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Everything is lewd
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 I could tell you things about Peter Pan
13D7E668C3695D623D5D And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man
James Coupe
>>The "principle" is a rule. [1.6.1.6].
>>It holds in all cases where more than one Methuselah want to play
>>the next effect and all the effects in question are "simultaneous"
>>(i.e., have the same timing window).
>>
>
>Which is why I have a problem with Psyche being made an exception to
>that rule.
It is not an exception; its timing phase is before that of Hidden Lurker
and Fast Reaction.
--
GreySeer
> In message <3c0118e4.179762290@news>, Talo...@hotmail.com writes:
> >>The "principle" is a rule. [1.6.1.6].
> >>It holds in all cases where more than one Methuselah want to play
> >>the next effect and all the effects in question are "simultaneous"
> >>(i.e., have the same timing window).
> >>
> >
> >Which is why I have a problem with Psyche being made an exception to
> >that rule.
>
> It is not an exception; its timing phase is before that of Hidden Lurker
> and Fast Reaction.
What I don't like is that this timing phase seems to have been created just
to accomodate Psyche! when ( I feel ) it isn't really necesseary.
James Coupe
<e...@i.think.not> writes:
>> >Which is why I have a problem with Psyche being made an exception to
>> >that rule.
>>
>> It is not an exception; its timing phase is before that of Hidden Lurker
>> and Fast Reaction.
>
>What I don't like is that this timing phase seems to have been created just
>to accomodate Psyche! when ( I feel ) it isn't really necesseary.
A number of timimg phases exist, or have existed, for the purposes of
playing one (or perhaps only a couple) of cards.
For instance, the timing phase of Direct Intervention was distinct to it
for several years. (Rewind Time now capitalises on it, in part.)
A number of problems were encountered with the timing of Thoughts
Betrayed. (Though this is now partly re-written from balance issues,
which have lead to an easing of the timing issues as well.)
Simidh
> In message <3c021951.179871569@news>, Talo...@hotmail.com writes:
> >>>But there is no such phase.
> >>
> >>If there wasn't such a phase, it wouldn't beat them. QED
> >>
> >>There is a phase where Psyche! is played that comes before the phase for
> >>Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
> >>
> >
> >
> >They're played in the same phase james. After combat ends.
>
> This is not true.
>
> Cards which are played in the same phase, or timing step, resolve with
> acting, reacting, others timing - as detailed in the rules book.
>
> LSJ has made this abundantly clear. Indeed, his first post in the
> thread made it abundantly clear that Psyche! has different timing to
> Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction.
This seems an opportune time to ask whether Fast reaction can in
fact be played by a minion that was just in combat with a vampire
that was in play due to IotK being played at the superior?
I looked this up via Google/Dejanews search but only found
Psyche!/IotK discussed in regards to this.
Fast reaction says another minion now enters combat with the
opposing minion. Is the opposing minion defined as the one it
was just in combat with, (I am guessing this is the case and that
Fast Reaction cannot not therefore be played as the opposing
minion has now been removed from the game), or is the opposing
minion the 'acting minion' that played the IotK card?
Just wanted to check for clarification, as this came up in a game
here recently, and whilst we ruled that it is likely to work much
the same as Pscyhe! in that it wouldn't be able to happen, I am
guessing it for slightly differing reasons. I also stated I'd
get clarification on the scenario from this newsgroup later on.
Am now doing that >;->
Simidh, Prince of Adelaide
LSJ
> This seems an opportune time to ask whether Fast reaction can in
> fact be played by a minion that was just in combat with a vampire
> that was in play due to IotK being played at the superior?
Well, this should be a new thread (as it has nothing to do with Psyche!),
but here we go:
No.
FR requires a combat between an acting minion and a blocking minion.
The combat with the Illusionary minion doesn't qualify.
(ANd FR cannot interrupt the IotK process before the Illusionary
combat, either).
Simidh
> Simidh wrote:
> > This seems an opportune time to ask whether Fast reaction can in
> > fact be played by a minion that was just in combat with a vampire
> > that was in play due to IotK being played at the superior?
>
> Well, this should be a new thread (as it has nothing to do with Psyche!),
> but here we go:
>
My apologies. Will keep that in mind for any future
questions I may have. Was just that this thread reminded
me about the question and it seemed related but yes I
guess it isn't really.
Meanwhile, my appreciation for your answer.
Simidh