In-built actions on locations and what they target (LSJ)
brandons...@yahoo.com
be simple, we'll see.
Say you have a location with text saying that another methuselah may
steal/burn counters or steal the location as a (D) action, does that
action count as one targeting the location, or the methuselah? I
remember you clarified that actions targeting you also include
locations and cards you control (reminder text).
action targets you = location, minion, card in play (on minion or not)
(a.k.a. you or something you control)
action targets (something other than "you") = includes the thing(s)
listed, does not include "you"?
Example:
A tapped General Dios wants to defend against someone arsonining PB:
Chicago. Clearly a (D) action targeting a location you control. What
if the tapped General Dios wants to defend the powerbase against
someone stealing the counters for their controller. Can he use his
special ability to do it?
General Perfidio Díos
Malkavian antitribu
Group: 3
Capacity: 5
Discipline: dem obf AUS
Sabbat bishop: Perfidio may burn 1 blood to untap and attempt to block
a (D) action that targets a location you control.
Powerbase: Chicago
Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to
this card or move all the blood on this card to your pool. A vampire
controlled by another Methuselah can move all the blood on this card
to his or her controller's pool as a (D) action.
Another example, just to muddy up the waters a bit:
Walker Grimes, the 1-cap with basic animalism, is an anarch. He wants
to use Detect Authority at ani to defend the powerbase in the two
above situations. Can he protect it from Arson? Can he protect it's
counters? What about a location targeting you? This last question is
there I need the most clarification. If it was "targeting you," it
would include anything you control. Since it specifies "(D) action
directed at a minion or location you control," does that exclude
bleeds and other actions directed actions targeting you?
Detect Authority
Reaction
Animalism/Serpentis/Thaumaturgy
Requires an anarch.
[ani] Only usable during a (D) action directed at a minion or location
you control. The action ends (no cost is paid), unless the acting
minion burns 2 blood immediately.
[ser] +1 intercept.
[tha] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
Thanks,
Brandon
LSJ
> I looked through the group and didn't see an answer to this.... It may
> be simple, we'll see.
>
> Say you have a location with text saying that another methuselah may
> steal/burn counters or steal the location as a (D) action, does that
> action count as one targeting the location, or the methuselah?
It targets the location, which means that it also targets the Methuselah.
> I
> remember you clarified that actions targeting you also include
> locations and cards you control (reminder text).
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/96074977a5d64cd5/9967f62354bc3884?lnk=gst&q=reminder+text++author%3A+brandonsantacruz#9967f62354bc3884
>
> action targets you = location, minion, card in play (on minion or not)
> (a.k.a. you or something you control)
>
> action targets (something other than "you") = includes the thing(s)
> listed, does not include "you"?
Hmm. No. That's backwards.
Targets something you control => targets you.
> Example:
>
> A tapped General Dios wants to defend against someone arsonining PB:
> Chicago. Clearly a (D) action targeting a location you control. What
> if the tapped General Dios wants to defend the powerbase against
> someone stealing the counters for their controller. Can he use his
> special ability to do it?
Yes.
> General Perfidio Díos
> Malkavian antitribu
> Group: 3
> Capacity: 5
> Discipline: dem obf AUS
> Sabbat bishop: Perfidio may burn 1 blood to untap and attempt to block
> a (D) action that targets a location you control.
>
> Powerbase: Chicago
> Master
> Cost: 1 pool
> Master: unique location.
> During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to
> this card or move all the blood on this card to your pool. A vampire
> controlled by another Methuselah can move all the blood on this card
> to his or her controller's pool as a (D) action.
>
> Another example, just to muddy up the waters a bit:
> Walker Grimes, the 1-cap with basic animalism, is an anarch. He wants
> to use Detect Authority at ani to defend the powerbase in the two
> above situations. Can he protect it from Arson? Can he protect it's
> counters? What about a location targeting you? This last question is
> there I need the most clarification. If it was "targeting you," it
> would include anything you control. Since it specifies "(D) action
> directed at a minion or location you control," does that exclude
> bleeds and other actions directed actions targeting you?
Yes, unless the bleed or other action includes a location or minion you control
among its targets.
Jozxyqk
> Say you have a location with text saying that another methuselah may
> steal/burn counters or steal the location as a (D) action, does that
> action count as one targeting the location, or the methuselah?
Both.
brandons...@yahoo.com
> brandonsantac...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I looked through the group and didn't see an answer to this.... It may
> > be simple, we'll see.
>
> > Say you have a location with text saying that another methuselah may
> > steal/burn counters or steal the location as a (D) action, does that
> > action count as one targeting the location, or the methuselah?
>
> It targets the location, which means that it also targets the Methuselah.
>
> > I
> > remember you clarified that actions targeting you also include
> > locations and cards you control (reminder text).
>
So if this were an umbrella chart, I would picture it going something
like this *crosses fingers that there are no formatting issues*:
"You"
l
Card you control
l
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
l l
l l
Location Minion Card on minion Other
card in play
l l l l l
l l l
Haven etc vamp ally equip loc on min
master minion card
l l
unique non-unique
Actions, cards, and abilities targeting the categories below "you" do
not necessarily target "you," whereas those targeting "you" would
include everything below it. The same would hold true for the sub-
categories (the chart is not include all of them).
Is that about right? Otherwise, I'm caught in a loop of location =
you, you = you, targeting location = targeting you
Brandon
brandons...@yahoo.com
That came out horribly. Here it is another way:
1You
1Card you control
i Minion ii Master iii Card played by minion
ia) Vampire ib) ally iia) Unique iib) non-unique iic) requiring X
iid) location iiia) Khazars iiib) etc
ia!) malkavian, etc ib!) Mortal
I think you get the idea.
Thanks,
Brandon
Meej
> Actions, cards, and abilities targeting the categories below "you" do
> not necessarily target "you," whereas those targeting "you" would
> include everything below it. The same would hold true for the sub-
> categories (the chart is not include all of them).
>
> Is that about right?
Umbrella chart aside, I'm pretty sure (if I understood you right) that
it's exactly backwards.
Actions targeting a Methuselah ("you") specifically by card text don't
(unless they say so) also target any particular thing. (A bleed at
you does not target a minion you control.)
Actions targeting a specific thing (a minion, a location, etc)
specifically by card text DO also target the controlling Methuselah.
I *believe*, though I'm not sure, that actions targeting a minion's
equipment, retainers, etc. also target that minion (and of course,
that minion's controller) but I can't say for sure.
You are not your stuff, and can be targeted without targeting your
stuff, but targeting your stuff by definition also targets you.
That's all there is to it - that, and exactly what the cards say.
- D.J.
Chris Berger
>
> I *believe*, though I'm not sure, that actions targeting a minion's
> equipment, retainers, etc. also target that minion (and of course,
> that minion's controller) but I can't say for sure.
>
be true, but it's not. An action targetting a minion's Raven Spy is
not considered to be directed at the minion. It is directed at the
Raven Spy and directed at the controlling methuselah (the controlling
methuselah is not always the controller of the minion a card is on,
though in the case of a Raven Spy it always is). Most of the time it
doesn't matter, but there are a handful (I think) of cards that
reference actions directed at "this minion".
brandons...@yahoo.com
Except that if you look at the conversation I cited from last
December, LSJ states that "or something you control" is considered
reminder text for "targeting you."
Search "reminder text" brandonsantacruz
The examples were Shemti, among others
Shemti [LotN:U]
Follower of Set
Group: 5
Capacity: 9
Discipline: vic OBF POT PRE SER
Independent: Shemti has 1 vote (titled). While he is ready and
untapped, any minion successfully performing a (D) action against you
takes 1 damage (after resolving the action).
If reminder text is to include something not stated but substantively
different than that which is explicitly stated, that clears up my
problem (in the very short term). If reminder text in this case is to
say, "by the way, targeting cards you control is the same thing as
targeting you," then I am still confused. Or dense, or both.
Brandon
LSJ
> On Mar 24, 2:34 pm, brandonsantac...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Actions, cards, and abilities targeting the categories below "you" do
>> not necessarily target "you," whereas those targeting "you" would
>> include everything below it. The same would hold true for the sub-
>> categories (the chart is not include all of them).
>>
>> Is that about right?
>
> Umbrella chart aside, I'm pretty sure (if I understood you right) that
> it's exactly backwards.
>
> Actions targeting a Methuselah ("you") specifically by card text don't
> (unless they say so) also target any particular thing. (A bleed at
> you does not target a minion you control.)
Correct.
> Actions targeting a specific thing (a minion, a location, etc)
> specifically by card text DO also target the controlling Methuselah.
Correct.
> I *believe*, though I'm not sure, that actions targeting a minion's
> equipment, retainers, etc. also target that minion (and of course,
> that minion's controller) but I can't say for sure.
No. Targeting a card doesn't implicitly target another card.
Targeting or blood counters, however, does target the minion with those counters.
> You are not your stuff, and can be targeted without targeting your
> stuff, but targeting your stuff by definition also targets you.
> That's all there is to it - that, and exactly what the cards say.
Correct.
Chris Berger
>
> If reminder text is to include something not stated but substantively
> different than that which is explicitly stated, that clears up my
> problem (in the very short term). If reminder text in this case is to
> say, "by the way, targeting cards you control is the same thing as
> targeting you," then I am still confused. Or dense, or both.
>
cards you control is by definition directed at you. An action
directed at you is not necessarily directed at any cards you control.
This thread is super-confusing to me, I guess just because I don't
understand where the confusion is, nor what other potential scenario
you are envisioning...
LSJ
> On Mar 24, 11:51 am, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> You are not your stuff, and can be targeted without targeting your
>> stuff, but targeting your stuff by definition also targets you.
>> That's all there is to it - that, and exactly what the cards say.
>
> December, LSJ states that "or something you control" is considered
> reminder text for "targeting you."
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/96074977a5d64cd5/9967f62354bc3884?lnk=gst&q=Reminder+text+brandonsantacruz#9967f62354bc3884
>
> Search "reminder text" brandonsantacruz
No. That post (and, please, link posts, not threads, so we can figure out what
post you're talking about.) i.e.,:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/736a09274d8d364f
That post says exactly what Meej says:
That post:
>> Would the addition of "(or something you control)." to the basic
>> "targeting you" be considered reminder text?
>
> Yes.
End quote
Says that targeting your stuff targets you. It says nothing about the reverse.
It says that when something looks for an action "targeting you", it implicitly
includes, by definition, "(or something you control)", since anything targeting
something you control targets you, by definition.
LSJ
> Meej wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 2:34 pm, brandonsantac...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> Actions, cards, and abilities targeting the categories below "you" do
>>> not necessarily target "you," whereas those targeting "you" would
>>> include everything below it. The same would hold true for the sub-
>>> categories (the chart is not include all of them).
>>>
>>> Is that about right?
>>
>> Umbrella chart aside, I'm pretty sure (if I understood you right) that
>> it's exactly backwards.
>>
>> Actions targeting a Methuselah ("you") specifically by card text don't
>> (unless they say so) also target any particular thing. (A bleed at
>> you does not target a minion you control.)
>
> Correct.
>
>> Actions targeting a specific thing (a minion, a location, etc)
>> specifically by card text DO also target the controlling Methuselah.
>
> Correct.
>
>> I *believe*, though I'm not sure, that actions targeting a minion's
>> equipment, retainers, etc. also target that minion (and of course,
>> that minion's controller) but I can't say for sure.
>
> No. Targeting a card doesn't implicitly target another card.
>
> Targeting or blood counters, however, does target the minion with those
> counters.
"life or blood counters" that is.
brandons...@yahoo.com
> brandonsantac...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Mar 24, 11:51 am, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> You are not your stuff, and can be targeted without targeting your
> >> stuff, but targeting your stuff by definition also targets you.
> >> That's all there is to it - that, and exactly what the cards say.
>
> > Except that if you look at the conversation I cited from last
> > December, LSJ states that "or something you control" is considered
> > reminder text for "targeting you."
>
>
> > Search "reminder text" brandonsantacruz
>
> No. That post (and, please, link posts, not threads, so we can figure out what
>
> That post says exactly what Meej says:
>
> That post:>> Would the addition of "(or something you control)." to the basic
> >> "targeting you" be considered reminder text?
>
> > Yes.
>
> End quote
>
> Says that targeting your stuff targets you. It says nothing about the reverse.
> It says that when something looks for an action "targeting you", it implicitly
> includes, by definition, "(or something you control)", since anything targeting
> something you control targets you, by definition.
Ok, it may be as simple as a big brain fart. Shemti's special would
illustrate that if I paid more attention to it. If an action targeting
a raven spy you control would trigger his special, it's because you
control it and are therefore the target methuselah. If his special
read "when raven spies you control are the target of a D action"
instead of just targeting "you", then it would not trigger when you
are bled. I think this is just an unfortunate tangent I got on from
the location/you as the target question. Sorry!
Brandon
James Coupe
>Ok, it may be as simple as a big brain fart. Shemti's special would
>illustrate that if I paid more attention to it. If an action targeting
>a raven spy you control would trigger his special, it's because you
>control it and are therefore the target methuselah. If his special
>read "when raven spies you control are the target of a D action"
>instead of just targeting "you", then it would not trigger when you
>are bled. I think this is just an unfortunate tangent I got on from
>the location/you as the target question. Sorry!
If an action targets a card, it also targets the card's controller.
If an action targets counters on a card (life, blood, powerbase
counters), it also targets the card - and the controlling Methuselah.
e.g. "(D) Steal 2 blood from a vampire" targets the blood
counters, the vampire, and the Methuselah.
If an action targets a card (A) on another card (B), it only targets A
and not B. However, it also targets the card's controller.
Example - "(D) Destroy equipment on a minion" targets the
equipment but not the minion, and also the controlling
Methuselah. The most obvious example of this is Arson-ing a
Secure Haven - you can't target the minion with the SH with
actions, but you can target the SH.
If an action just generically targets a Methuselah (e.g. "(D) Bleed your
prey"), it is targeting that Methuselah - and not any of his cards.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
When you target equipment/retainer, you don't automatically target the
minion that has it... but if you target either the minion or the
equipment/retainer you are targeting the Methuselah.
If you target a location, you target the Methuselah. With cards like
Investments, they "own" their own counters, so if you target the
counters on the investment, you target the investment and you target
the Methuselah. Similarly for things like Powerbase: Madrid.. you
target the counters, the location and the Methuselah.
Anything that checks for "target X" will trigger if it is "further up"
the heirarchy but not "further down" the hierarchy.
Hierarchy
-------------
1. Methuselah
2. Retainers/Equipment/Locations/Minions/Cards in Play under your
control/Pool counters
3. Counters on cards
brandons...@yahoo.com
Thanks JC and Juggernaut, that helps put the pieces in logical order.
Brandon