Taking the Skin: Minion Question
Baaliprimogen
Type: Action Modifier/Combat
Requires: Abombwe
[abo] [REFLEX] Cancel a frenzy card played on this vampire as it is
played.
[abo] Skin. Play when this vampire burns a minion. Put this card on
this vampire and untap him or her. This vampire may bleed an
additional time this turn and gets +1 bleed and +1 stealth when
bleeding. Burn this card during your discard phase. A minion can have
only one skin.
Rarity: EK:R
Ok. Here are two questions.
1. If I block a minion and burns it in combat. Does this card untap
you, and make you able to bleed during another Meths minion phase?
2. If I have a retainer on me that I may burn. Is that enough to
trigger TtS:M? Example: If I bleed and burn Masquer to give any minion
+1 int. Can I play TtS:M. Or burn Ghoul Escort? Or may I use if if I
burn the last blood on Crypt's Sons?
Thinking to exploit this card if it is possible.
John Flournoy
> 2. If I have a retainer on me that I may burn. Is that enough to
> trigger TtS:M? Example: If I bleed and burn Masquer to give any minion
> +1 int. Can I play TtS:M. Or burn Ghoul Escort? Or may I use if if I
> burn the last blood on Crypt's Sons?
Retainers aren't minions.
-John Flournoy
D.J.
> Ok. Here are two questions.
> 1. If I block a minion and burns it in combat. Does this card untap
> you, and make you able to bleed during another Meths minion phase?
Yes to the first part, no to the second - it, itself, doesn't let you
take an out-of-turn action. (However, if you had a Malk with Abombwe
and an Enkil Cog, and Madness Network in play, that Malkavian could
block, burn a minion, play Taking the Skin, untap, bleed with Madness
Network, untap somehow, and bleed again with Enkil Cog.)
> 2. If I have a retainer on me that I may burn. Is that enough to
> trigger TtS:M? Example: If I bleed and burn Masquer to give any minion
> +1 int. Can I play TtS:M. Or burn Ghoul Escort? Or may I use if if I
> burn the last blood on Crypt's Sons?
A retainer isn't a minion. No.
> Thinking to exploit this card if it is possible.
Good luck. :-)
- D.J.
wedge
Retainers are not minions. It would work w/ Keystone Kine (obf)
Requires an anarch.
[cel] and/or
[nec] and/or
[obf] (D) Bleed. If using
[cel], he or she gains 1 blood. If using
[nec], the bleed is at +1 bleed. If using
[obf] and this action is successful, you may burn an ally controlled
by your prey whose cost is not greater than the bleed amount.
Matt
Baaliprimogen
1. Thank you for clarifying.
2. Hum. I forgot about that. Well, other thing then. If I recruit a
War Ghoul. Does it kick in? May I take a action, like Horseshoes, on
my own ally?
tigernat1
> On Sep 18, 12:23 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Deck Name: !Gangrel Anarch
> Created By:
> Description: Bleed and gain 2 blood; probably add bleed retainers
> lap tops and Heidelberg
>
> Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 4, Max: 26, Avg: 3.91)
> ---------------------------------------------
> 1 Wren cel obf pro 4 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 1 Maria Stone cel obf pro FOR 5 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 1 Skryta Zyleta obf pot pro CEL 5 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 1 Darrel Boyce CEL OBF PRO 6 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 1 Harry Reese cel obf FOR PRO 6 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 1 Soldat cel dom obf POT PRO7 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 1 Zachary for pre CEL OBF PRO7 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 1 Max Lowell cel obf 3 Gangrel
> Antitribu
> 4 Anarch Convert 1 Caitiff
>
> Library: (80 cards)
> -------------------
> Master (17 cards)
> 8 Capitalist
> 4 Bay and Howl
> 1 City Gangrel Connections
> 1 Twisted Forest
> 1 Anarch Railroad
> 2 Seattle Committee
>
> Action (16 cards)
> 16 Keystone Kine
>
> Action Modifier (26 cards)
> 8 CrimethInc.
> 8 Monkey Wrench
> 3 Cloak the Gathering
> 3 Domain of Evernight
> 2 Faceless Night
> 2 Lost in Crowds
>
> Combat (16 cards)
> 8 Claws of the Dead
> 4 Flesh of Marble
> 4 Form of Mist
>
> Event (2 cards)
> 1 Absimiliard`s Army
> 1 Restricted Vitae
>
> Combo (3 cards)
> 3 Swallowed by the Night
>
> This deck was last saved at 12:51:37 PM on 9/18/2009
What? no Tension? would Tension even work (if the ally is burned it
is removed from the game)? Abs army requires 1 other Gehenna
card...you are ONLY packing 1 other Gehenna card...bad odds my
friend! No Fortschritt?
Definitely add 1 Frontal Assault! What are you going to do after you
bleed, gain a blood from Capitalist and untap with CrimethInc...suck
your thumb?
you are slipping Matt! :-)
Vegas gNat
wedge
yes and yes
D.J.
Actually, no, and no. Recruiting a War Ghoul isn't a D action, and a
Horseshoes (or similar) directed at your own minion becomes
undirected.
There's no way to burn your own stuff while it's still under your
control and have it trigger Red List trophies.
- D.J.
D.J.
Lost sight of the question there, sorry.
If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War
Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry
for the confusion.
- D.J.
cthulukitty
> Lost sight of the question there, sorry.
>
> If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War
> Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry
> for the confusion.
You were right the first time. The rules regarding trophies are not
limited to them; they simply explicate what it means to burn a minion.
You count as having done so if it occurs in combat, or as the result
of a directed action. Any other means of burning a minion triggers
neither Trophies nor TtS:M.
Also, could we all avoid posting deck lists in rules question threads?
Jesse
D.J.
> DJ wrote:
> > If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War
> > Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry
> > for the confusion.
>
> You were right the first time. The rules regarding trophies are not
> limited to them; they simply explicate what it means to burn a minion.
> You count as having done so if it occurs in combat, or as the result
> of a directed action. Any other means of burning a minion triggers
> neither Trophies nor TtS:M.
I'm not at all sure on that. I mean, if Monty Coven diablerizes a
titled minion on your own team, he's taking an undirected action, but
I can't see how that doesn't count as him burning a titled vampire for
purposes of his special... LSJ?
> Also, could we all avoid posting deck lists in rules question threads?
This, however, I can definitely agree with... it makes later searches
more problematic, too.
- D.J.
LSJ
> On Sep 19, 5:22 pm, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> DJ wrote:
>>> If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War
>>> Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry
>>> for the confusion.
>> You were right the first time. The rules regarding trophies are not
>> limited to them; they simply explicate what it means to burn a minion.
>> You count as having done so if it occurs in combat, or as the result
>> of a directed action. Any other means of burning a minion triggers
>> neither Trophies nor TtS:M.
>
> I'm not at all sure on that. I mean, if Monty Coven diablerizes a
> titled minion on your own team, he's taking an undirected action, but
> I can't see how that doesn't count as him burning a titled vampire for
> purposes of his special... LSJ?
Monty's special makes no mention of directed. Neither does Taking the Skin:
Minion. Each of these would be satisfied with an undirected burn, like
diablerizing a "teammate".
Unlike Trophies, whose rules restrict which burnings the trophy will notice.
And note that the minion recruiting a War Ghoul doesn't burn anything; xe merely
puts the War Ghoul in play.
The War Ghoul entering play burns an ally or retainer. But the War Ghoul isn't
the acting minion on the action to recruit her, so she cannot play action modifiers.
Similarly, if Brigitte Gebauer loses her last life after gifting bleed, that
doesn't count as the acting minion burning her (nor the blocking minion burning
her, for that matter).
cthulukitty
> Unlike Trophies, whose rules restrict which burnings the trophy
will notice.
So what exactly is the definition of "burning a minion"? It seems hard
to tell the difference between a minion actually being responsible for
burning something, and burning something being an incidental effect
that occurs during an action. The rule on trophies seemed like it was
written to clarify this, but this ruling on Taking the Skin: Minion
seems to convolute the question. What about burning a minion with Auto-
De-Fe? What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in
play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey? How do we tell what counts and what
doesn't?
Jesse
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > Unlike Trophies, whose rules restrict which burnings the trophy
> will notice.
>
> So what exactly is the definition of "burning a minion"?
That's not a term. It's a description. It defines itself.
> It seems hard
> to tell the difference between a minion actually being responsible for
> burning something, and burning something being an incidental effect
> that occurs during an action. The rule on trophies seemed like it was
> written to clarify this,
No. Just like the rule on diablerie was not written to clarify what it means to
play a master: Discipine card.
The rule on Trophies specifies when they can be awarded. That is what it was
written to do.
> but this ruling on Taking the Skin: Minion
> seems to convolute the question.
It doesn't. It simply follows card text.
> What about burning a minion with Auto-
> De-Fe?
The target minion is burned.
> What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in
> play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey?
Then Bey would burn.
> How do we tell what counts and what
> doesn't?
Card text.
D.J.
On Sep 22, 12:46 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> cthulukitty wrote:
> > What about burning a minion with Auto-
> > De-Fe?
>
> The target minion is burned.
... and, since it was the result of a referendum, not of the action
itself - the action merely calls the referendum - TtS:M cannot be
played? (Not sure on this one.)
> > What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in
> > play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey?
>
> Then Bey would burn.
But since the action just put a Gehenna event in play, causing Bey to
burn himself, TtS:M cannot be played? (Parallel: War Ghoul.)
> > How do we tell what counts and what
> > doesn't?
>
> Card text.
What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the
burning? I'd have thought it would be clearer, based on whether the
effect which caused the burning came from the minion or not, but based
on the Julius ruling - that, say, if Julius were in combat with an Ex
Nihilo'd vampire unable to do damage, and Julius set off his Bomb and
blew himself up, it still counts as the Ex Nihilo'd vampire burning
him despite the complete passivity of the Ex Nihilo'd vampire in the
situation in question - I can't actually tell anymore what the
standard is. Can we get a clear statement about what criteria cause
the game state to regard Minion A as having burned Minion B? 'Cause
"card text" alone leaves too many vague points; clarification on what
card text should be communicating is needed.
- D.J.
Jozxyqk
> So, regarding Taking the Skin: Minion...
> On Sep 22, 12:46�pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > cthulukitty wrote:
> > > What about burning a minion with Auto-
> > > De-Fe?
> >
> > The target minion is burned.
> ... and, since it was the result of a referendum, not of the action
> itself - the action merely calls the referendum - TtS:M cannot be
> played? (Not sure on this one.)
Correct.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c160a3e36236e260
LSJ
> So, regarding Taking the Skin: Minion...
>
> On Sep 22, 12:46 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> cthulukitty wrote:
>>> What about burning a minion with Auto-
>>> De-Fe?
>> The target minion is burned.
>
> ... and, since it was the result of a referendum, not of the action
> itself - the action merely calls the referendum - TtS:M cannot be
> played? (Not sure on this one.)
Card text: "that vampire's controller burns that vampire".
So Taking the Skin: Minion cannot be played.
>>> What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in
>>> play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey?
>> Then Bey would burn.
>
> But since the action just put a Gehenna event in play, causing Bey to
> burn himself, TtS:M cannot be played? (Parallel: War Ghoul.)
Correct.
>>> How do we tell what counts and what
>>> doesn't?
>> Card text.
>
> What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the
> burning?
Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is
considered burned by the opposing minion.
> I'd have thought it would be clearer, based on whether the
> effect which caused the burning came from the minion or not, but based
> on the Julius ruling - that, say, if Julius were in combat with an Ex
> Nihilo'd vampire unable to do damage, and Julius set off his Bomb and
> blew himself up, it still counts as the Ex Nihilo'd vampire burning
> him despite the complete passivity of the Ex Nihilo'd vampire in the
> situation in question - I can't actually tell anymore what the
> standard is.
Being in combat is not being completely passive.
> Can we get a clear statement about what criteria cause
> the game state to regard Minion A as having burned Minion B? 'Cause
> "card text" alone leaves too many vague points; clarification on what
> card text should be communicating is needed.
If there are any ambiguities left after reading card text, I'll be happy to
address those.
Jozxyqk
> > What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the
> > burning?
> Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is
> considered burned by the opposing minion.
> If there are any ambiguities left after reading card text, I'll be happy to
> address those.
So, here is a list of the ways in which Minion A can burn Minion B:
1) Minion A takes a (D) action (under the newest definition of (D) actions) that
"burns" Minion B explicitly by card text or rule text (i.e. Diablerie).
2) As (1), but the action does enough damage (aggravated if necessary) to cause
Minion B to burn (i.e. Cryptic Mission on Mylan Horseed or on empty Julius).
3) Minion B burns as a result of combat with Minion A, regardless of Minion A's
activity in that combat.
4) Minion A (who is a vampire) blocks the "Leave Torpor" action of Minion B (who
is a vampire) and chooses to diablerize.
5) Some non-action effect specifically says "(A minion) burns (another minion)".
Am I missing anything?
Jozxyqk
> 2) As (1), but the action does enough damage (aggravated if necessary) to cause
> Minion B to burn (i.e. Cryptic Mission on Mylan Horseed or on empty Julius).
...and by "or on empty Julius", I meant "or Shadow Twin on empty Julius", of
course.
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>> What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the
>>> burning?
>
>> Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is
>> considered burned by the opposing minion.
>
>> If there are any ambiguities left after reading card text, I'll be happy to
>> address those.
>
> So, here is a list of the ways in which Minion A can burn Minion B:
>
> 1) Minion A takes a (D) action (under the newest definition of (D) actions) that
> "burns" Minion B explicitly by card text or rule text (i.e. Diablerie).
1) Minion a plays an effect which says "burn minion". Like diablerie (directed
action, undirected action, Amaranth or any other diablerie). Or other "burn
minion" effects, like Abomination, Akhenaten, Amam, Ambulance, Ankou, Cobra Fangs.
Note that, as for determining directedness, effects of referendums are not
counted here. In these cases, the minion's effect is to simply call the
referendum. (See ruling Josh cited earlier)
> 2) As (1), but the action does enough damage (aggravated if necessary) to cause
> Minion B to burn (i.e. Cryptic Mission on Mylan Horseed or on empty Julius).
2) Inflicting damage on a minion the handling of which burns the minion (via
aggravated damage for vampires or loss of life for allies), or simply removing
all the life from an ally (damage-related or not).
> 3) Minion B burns as a result of combat with Minion A, regardless of Minion A's
> activity in that combat.
3) Exactly.
> 4) Minion A (who is a vampire) blocks the "Leave Torpor" action of Minion B (who
> is a vampire) and chooses to diablerize.
Sure. But I'd put this under 1) above. Same for a Banshee Ironwail bearer
blocking an ally with one life.
> 5) Some non-action effect specifically says "(A minion) burns (another minion)".
Also covered by 1) if you don't bother restricting 1) to "action". :-)