hand strikes?
Jay Kristoff
The Khabar: Honor [AH]
Cardtype: Combat
Clan: Assamite
Strike: <strength+3> damage. Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen
for a Contract on the opposing minion.
Meat Cleaver [Sabbat, SW]
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Melee Weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike (and other melee weapons like
Garrote)
Shadow Strike [SW]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Obtenebration
Strike: strength ranged damage, with an optional maneuver. (S) As above,
with an optional press. <<<<<<<<< (at close range)
Thanks in advance,
Jay
LSJ
The Khabar: Honor is, since it is a hand strike.
Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon, offensive (non-dodge, non-S:CE) strike
that deals damage based on the stiking minion's strength.
Meat Cleaver is a weapon, so doen't qualify.
Shadow Strike is ranged, so doesn't qualify (even at close range).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Flux
"Jay Kristoff" <j...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:AY5Y6.56656$V5.62...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
> Under an Immortal Grapple are any of these playable?
From the online rulings:
"Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on
the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing
innate strike. [LSJ 19970224]"
LSJ has recently ruled that Stutter-Step is not a hand strike, despite
conforming to this definition, because it is a dodge, but that is the only
exception to this ruling AFAIK.
Therefore, since IG only allows hand strikes:
> The Khabar: Honor [AH]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Clan: Assamite
> Strike: <strength+3> damage. Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen
> for a Contract on the opposing minion.
Yes, it's non-ranged strength-based damage, and not from a melee weapon.
> Meat Cleaver [Sabbat, SW]
> Cardtype: Equipment
> Cost: 1 pool
> Melee Weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike (and other melee weapons like
> Garrote)
No. Weapon strikes are never hand strikes.
> Shadow Strike [SW]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Obtenebration
> Strike: strength ranged damage, with an optional maneuver. (S) As above,
> with an optional press. <<<<<<<<< (at close range)
No. It's still a ranged strike, even if used at close range.
Flux
Reyda
"Jay Kristoff" <j...@columbus.rr.com> a écrit dans le message news:
AY5Y6.56656$V5.62...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
> Under an Immortal Grapple are any of these playable?
you can only do hand strike under immortal grapple. So....
> The Khabar: Honor [AH]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Clan: Assamite
> Strike: <strength+3> damage. Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen
> for a Contract on the opposing minion.
Yes, this is a hand strike. You strike with your strength + a bonus.
> Meat Cleaver [Sabbat, SW]
> Cardtype: Equipment
> Cost: 1 pool
> Melee Weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike (and other melee weapons like
> Garrote)
No, it's not a hand strike. If you strike with meat cleaver, you are
striking with a weapon, even if the amount of damage is influenced by your
strength. It is illegal to strike with meat cleaver under immortal grapple.
>
> Shadow Strike [SW]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Obtenebration
> Strike: strength ranged damage, with an optional maneuver. (S) As above,
> with an optional press. <<<<<<<<< (at close range)
It's a strike that does ranged damage, and the amount of damage is modified
by your strength. However it is still not a hand strike. you cannot play
that under immortal grapple. -And if you play it before immortal grapple
shows up, your shadow strike has no effect.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Jay
>
Reyda
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com>
>
> Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon, offensive (non-dodge, non-S:CE)
strike
> that deals damage based on the stiking minion's strength.
>
> Meat Cleaver is a weapon, so doen't qualify.
> Shadow Strike is ranged, so doesn't qualify (even at close range).
Hum, i think this nice definition of "hand strike" is again in danger :
Blood of the cobra permits an assamite to do hand strikes like dagon's call
at long range... But they are still hand strikes then ! Thetmes actually
delivers 2 Agg when playing dagon call's at long range =)
please clarify !
thanks
reyda
LSJ
No. A hand strike at long range is not a hand strike any more. Using
Dagon's Call ("Strike: make a hand strike (strength damage)") with
Blood of the Cobra ("use that strike as if it were ranged") results
in "Strike: strength ranged damage".
--
LSJ
Flux
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:9gqt6p$2tu$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
> "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote:
> >
> >"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com>
> >>
> >> Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon, offensive (non-dodge,
non-S:CE)
> >strike
> >> that deals damage based on the stiking minion's strength.
> >>
> >Blood of the cobra permits an assamite to do hand strikes like dagon's
call
> >at long range... But they are still hand strikes then ! Thetmes actually
> >delivers 2 Agg when playing dagon call's at long range =)
> >please clarify !
>
> No. A hand strike at long range is not a hand strike any more. Using
> Dagon's Call ("Strike: make a hand strike (strength damage)") with
> Blood of the Cobra ("use that strike as if it were ranged") results
> in "Strike: strength ranged damage".
So hand damage modifiers should not apply anymore, right?
Would a melee weapon strike (with Scorpion's Touch+BotC) still have the
melee weapon's characteristics (+X damage, agg. damage, etc)? I think yes,
but then again, why should it be different from hand damage modifiers?
Flux
LSJ
>"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
>news:9gqt6p$2tu$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
>> Dagon's Call ("Strike: make a hand strike (strength damage)") with
>> Blood of the Cobra ("use that strike as if it were ranged") results
>> in "Strike: strength ranged damage".
>
>So hand damage modifiers should not apply anymore, right?
Correct, although strength modifiers would.
>Would a melee weapon strike (with Scorpion's Touch+BotC) still have the
>melee weapon's characteristics (+X damage, agg. damage, etc)? I think yes,
>but then again, why should it be different from hand damage modifiers?
Getting odd here, eh?
It looks like it may be better to alter my original ruling above:
Adding "ranged" to a strike such as Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch
(which say "make a X strike") results in "Strike: ranged. Make an X strike"
without actually changing the nature of the X strike. The other effects
of the Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch still hold, however.
BotC+Dagon's Call results in the unpreventable press-step damage, but the
hand strike is ineffectual (does no damage) at long range.
BotC+Scorpion's Touch results in the -1 strength effect but, if the range is
long, the melee weapon strike / hand strike part is ineffective.
I'll put this on the RT list for review.
--
LSJ
Reyda
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com>
> Adding "ranged" to a strike such as Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch
> (which say "make a X strike") results in "Strike: ranged. Make an X
strike"
> without actually changing the nature of the X strike. The other effects
> of the Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch still hold, however.
>
> BotC+Dagon's Call results in the unpreventable press-step damage, but the
> hand strike is ineffectual (does no damage) at long range.
> BotC+Scorpion's Touch results in the -1 strength effect but, if the range
is
> long, the melee weapon strike / hand strike part is ineffective.
>
> I'll put this on the RT list for review.
Hum... Maybe there are better options for this new ruling ? it makes Blood
of cobra, a nice rare card, instant wallpaper. why not just treat it as a
normal ranged strike, and apply damage from weapon/modifying effects and all
as if range were close for the combattant using Blood of cobra ? This could
lead to cornercase situations, but we players just want to play BOtC in an
effective way, without wallpaperizing a card which is already difficult to
use.
> --
> LSJ
Flux
"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:9gr129$mve$1...@neon.noos.net...
> Hum... Maybe there are better options for this new ruling ? it makes
Blood
> of cobra, a nice rare card, instant wallpaper. why not just treat it as a
> normal ranged strike, and apply damage from weapon/modifying effects and
all
> as if range were close for the combattant using Blood of cobra ? This
could
> lead to cornercase situations, but we players just want to play BOtC in an
> effective way, without wallpaperizing a card which is already difficult to
> use.
I agree.
I'd rather have it inherit all of the base strike's properties and make them
ranged. Since they'd be ranged, they would no longer be hand or melee weapon
strikes (assuming melee weapon strikes can't be ranged - new ruling? :-) ),
but they'd have all the strike's former properties otherwise.
Seems simpler and more intuitive, it's the way most newbies would assume it
to work.
(I typed a nice OT rant here about the high blood cost of Quietus cards, but
my PC decided to reboot whithout consulting me first due to the heat - can't
blame it, it's probably over 30 ºC here now at 22 pm - and I can't bother
myself to type it all again)
Flux
Pat Ricochet
Remember that LSJ is, in general, a strict Constitutionalist (though
that's an American colloquialism). Meaning, he interprets as strictly to
the rules as possible, not for "what seems best for the game." It's a good
tack to take when you know you're going to have to keep making rulings, and
it minimizes the amount of times he has to reverse decisions from new
complications. (Though, I've seen LSJ put up reversals more in the past
week than I've seen or heard of in all his tenure. =)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
Pat Ricochet
> (I typed a nice OT rant here about the high blood cost of Quietus cards, but
> my PC decided to reboot whithout consulting me first due to the heat - can't
> blame it, it's probably over 30 ºC here now at 22 pm - and I can't bother
> myself to type it all again)
Succulent Vitae is your friend. =) And there's always the Path, and
just about *nobody* is going after the Path when you've got an Assamite with
a Sniper Rifle ready to defend it.
Actually, with Sniper Rifle, Guard Duty, and all the newly expanded
Auspex on the Assamites, it's almost worth making a "come and get it"
Assamite deck, with the Rack, Smiling Jack, the Powerbases, etc, since
they'd love for you to play your strikes first.
Flux
"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:B7568F4A.4B40%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu...
Sure but that's precisely the problem: without the Path/Succulent Vitae
(nice, but not as good as Inner Essence), many Quietus cards are not worth
playing at inf, and often even at SUP. Until now all Assamites had QUI (or
none at all), but a lot of the new vampires have qui, and many cards are not
worth the blood they cost when played at inf (Thin Blood/Vascular Explosion,
even Dagon's Call ain't that good when you're paying for it - if no other
cards are played, you pay one blood and take one damage, opposing minion
takes two damage)
I played a game yesterday with an Assamite+AUS deck. Not that effective,
just trying out the new cards. It completelly fell apart when I failed to
put a Path in play (due to 2 Sudden Reversals). Not the first time that
happened to me, but I hoped the new cards would solve this problem, not
agravate it. :-(
Flux
BernieTime
Bang Nakh as being applicable to a hand strike.
It's a Glove with spikes for heaven's sake..
As far as it goes, I'd always thought that hand strikes should also include
Melee Weapon strikes. Yep, Chain Saws, Bastard Swords, etc..
Certainly would hear less griping that First Strike is useless. Though the
idea of the Muddled Vampire Hunter with a Sengir Dagger gets scary..
Bernie B.
Vince Johnson
Though it gives the appearance of punching, that's not all hand damage is.
Hand damage could be considered a mix of brawling,chokes, kicks or
even a set of claws. In these cases, a pair of Bagh Nakh wouldn't
do squat.
Muddled Vampire only got scary until they ruled he has 4 strength
and that the dagger does strength damage. Old school muddled
sucked when you gave him the dagger.
Vince
"BernieTime" <berni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010710023018...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
BernieTime
I know where you're going, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
If you've ever taken a hit on the chin, or been in a wrestling match
(mud wrestling doesn't count) wearing a pair of cestus (or Bang
Nakh) would definitely contribute to damage done.
If a dog were to attack me on the street and I were armed
with a knife, after shoving one fist down it's throat and ripping
it open with my knife in the other there would probably be
a difference in opinion as to how effective the knife is.
Sure. I'd have a mangled hand, but there would also be a dead
dog.
-- Bernie
Halcyan 2
>
>I know where you're going, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
>If you've ever taken a hit on the chin, or been in a wrestling match
>(mud wrestling doesn't count) wearing a pair of cestus (or Bang
>Nakh) would definitely contribute to damage done.
>
>If a dog were to attack me on the street and I were armed
>with a knife, after shoving one fist down it's throat and ripping
>it open with my knife in the other there would probably be
>a difference in opinion as to how effective the knife is.
>
>Sure. I'd have a mangled hand, but there would also be a dead
>dog.
Um...so maybe that's why card games like Jyhad/VTES are designed by gamers,
developers, and strategists as opposed to knife-wielding, dog-slayin',
wrestlers? ;)
Halcyan 2