Ravnos Carnival Question

[Name]

Here's the card text:

Put X currency counters on this card when you play it, where X is the number
of Ravnos you control. If a Ravnos you control successfully performs an
action, you may use counters from the Ravnos Carnival to pay some or all of
the cost in blood (but not pool) for the card. When the last counter is
removed, burn the Ravnos Carnival.

Here's the situation:

Gabrin wants to equip a palatial estate (2 blood cost), with the carnival in
play with 3 counters on it. Gabrin only had 1 blood on him. Would I be right
in thinking that he can't even take the action to do it, since you can only
use counters "if a ravnos you control successfully performs an action."

Thanks

Neil

[LSJ]

"Name" <na...@name.com> wrote in message
news:I3B5e.20786$DW.1...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

I'm pretty sure this is the key to the Ravnos Carnival Embrace decks.

I'm pressed for time right now, though. Can anyone dig up the old ruling?
My initial searches turned up nothing.

--
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (Remove spam trap to reply).
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

[John Flournoy]

While not a direct ruling, the thread contained in
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/53800f4ed3cfc64d/c54ce86bc0e82471?q=pay+successful&rnum=2#c54ce86bc0e82471
talks about how sections 6.2 and 6.2.3 of the rules include:

"If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful),
then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful
action take place."

The action is considered to be successful at the point where all block
attempts fail; if you then can't pay, the action's effect fizzles (and
the action is then changed to be considered unsuccessful, I believe.)
But the action is clearly counted by the rules as successful before it
is paid for, so Ravnos Carnival can be used to pay the cost even if the
acting minion can't pay for it without the Carnival. There's definitely
a point where the action is at least temporarily counted as successful
before any blood/pool payment is made.

> LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (Remove spam trap
to reply).

-John Flournoy

[Robert Goudie]

[Chris Berger]

John Flournoy wrote:
>
> While not a direct ruling, the thread contained in
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/53800f4ed3cfc64d/c54ce86bc0e82471?q=pay+successful&rnum=2#c54ce86bc0e82471
> talks about how sections 6.2 and 6.2.3 of the rules include:
>
> "If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful),
> then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful
> action take place."
>

That would be pertinent if Gabrin could attempt the action, which he
cannot. A vampire cannot attempt an action that he doesn't have the
blood to pay for. If he had 2 blood on him to start with and then paid
a blood for stealth, he could still use the Ravnos Carnival to pay for
it and it wouldn't fizzle due to him being unable to pay.

[John Flournoy]

An excellent point - I was strictly thinking in terms of whether or not
the action succeeds at the end, not whether or not Gabrin can attempt
the action in the first place.

-John Flournoy

[echia...@yahoo.com]

That was my thought initially. But during the European Last Chance
Qualifier in Heidelberg, I had one game where my prey was playing
Embrace + Ravnos Carnival. I specifically called over LSJ and asked
whether the Embrace action could be attempted, even if the acting
vampire had less than 2 blood and he ruled that the vampire can, due to
the presence of the Ravnos Carnival.

[LSJ]

echia...@yahoo.com wrote:
> That was my thought initially. But during the European Last Chance
> Qualifier in Heidelberg, I had one game where my prey was playing
> Embrace + Ravnos Carnival. I specifically called over LSJ and asked
> whether the Embrace action could be attempted, even if the acting
> vampire had less than 2 blood and he ruled that the vampire can, due to
> the presence of the Ravnos Carnival.

Hmm. Just verbal, eh? I could've sworn I'd typed this on one of the
forums -- but cannot find it here or in PoB. Maybe it was on the WW
forum (no archives to check, TTBOMK).

--
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

[echia...@yahoo.com]

Well, the player at the time who was my prey was Kamel Senni. He said
that he had previously asked you about it. Perhaps he might have
documentation regarding the issue.

Also, I believe Christian Chenard had one of the earlier versions of
this sort of deck (which Stefan Ferenci and Kamel Senni based their
versions around). I'd assume that they probably would have checked to
make sure it worked before basing a deck around it.

- Eric Chiang

[echia...@yahoo.com]

Here are some of the other things I've been able to find:

LSJ Dec 2 2003, 5:09 am
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
From: LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 08:09:23 -0500
Local: Tues, Dec 2 2003 5:09 am
Subject: Re: [LSJ] Sunset Strip

salem wrote:
> How early can you tap Sunset Strip to reduce the cost of a mortal
ally
> by 1?

> for example:
> cicatriz has 1 blood. it wants to get a courier. you can't attempt an

> action you can't afford. cicatriz can't afford the courier. but can
> you tap the sunset strip as you announce the action, or something, to

> be able to attempt (and then succeed at, as the cost is 1 less) the
> action?

Yes. The most frequent example of this effect is Masochism, but
Succulent
Vitae and then Soul of the Earth are a distant second and third, I
imagine.

Similarly, a vampire who had played Inner Essence could use the effect
to reduce the cost of a combat card down to something he could afford
to pay.

There's also this case:

LSJ Feb 8 2000, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
From: LSJ <vtes...@wizards.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: 2000/02/08
Subject: Re: LSJ combat question

Derek Ray wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:55:13 -0800, "John (Droz) Ferretti"
> <pitt...@olypen.com> wrote:
> >>[Camille with Masochism with 5 counters]
> >> Camille spends 4 rush counters to play body of sun at Superior,
burning
> >> Emerson Bridges and sending her to torpor.

> >> Camille has zero blood and 3 rush counters.

> Camille would only have 1 rush counter, since she cannot gain more
> rush counters than her capacity, which is 5. She gains 14 rush
> counters over the course of the entire combat though (1 point of
> damage, +1 per round for superior FOR, EXCEPT for round 6), most of
> which fall off, since she's actually taking damage, but the UP is
> preventing her from actually going to torpor.

On the last round, Camille burns four rush counters to play Body
of Sun. Masochism now has just 1 rush counter.

During strike resolution, Camille takes one damage, so Masochism
gets another counter. At superior, the Masochism gets yet another
counter at the end of the round.

#1. So normally Cicatriz shouldn't be able to even attempt the Recruit
Courier action. But since he has a means to reduce the cost (to
something he can pay), he is allowed to take the action.

#2. Normally Camille should not be able to play Body of Sun (doesn't
have enough blood). Yet she is allowed to play it by using Masochism.
Masochism states that "Whenever the vampire plays a card, you may
remove X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost
by X." You have to be able to play the card in order to use the
Masochism and at face value it appears Camille should not be allowed to
play the card in the first place.

Precedent in these cases seem to imply that a minion can play a card
that he/she does not have the blood to pay for, if he/she has a means
with which to reduce or pay the cost such that he/she can then afford
to pay for the card.

It seems logical that such a ruling on Ravnos Carnival and Ravnos Cache
would follow in a similar manner.

- Eric Chiang

[James Coupe]

In message <1113002819.2...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,

echia...@yahoo.com writes:
>Precedent in these cases seem to imply that a minion can play a card
>that he/she does not have the blood to pay for, if he/she has a means
>with which to reduce or pay the cost such that he/she can then afford
>to pay for the card.
>
>It seems logical that such a ruling on Ravnos Carnival and Ravnos Cache
>would follow in a similar manner.

The difference is that most (all) of those cards reduce the cost
immediately. Ravnos Carnival simply gives you counters you can burn
instead, which isn't quite the same thing.

However, Meshenka was originally worded as burning one less blood on
completion, rather than reducing the cost, but now reduces the cost.
This wasn't considered to be a card text migration, so we can reasonably
assume that Meshenka could (e.g.) play Bauble even when on 1 blood, even
though the cost was still 2 blood.

At which point, the potential to be able to pay for the card and
complete the action successfully (assuming it resolved RIGHT NOW) seems
to be enough to allow you to play cards in the first place.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

[echia...@yahoo.com]

Additionally,

The rulebook states that:

A drop of blood with a number on the left side of a library card (in
the middle of the side or in the bottom corner) indicates the amount of
blood or pool that must be burned to play the card. A number in a red
drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn).
A number in a white diamond with a skull represents pool cost (the
amount of pool the Methuselah must burn).

Card texts:

Path of the Feral Heart
Unique master.
Put this card in play. Gangrel antitribu burn 1 less blood when playing
cards that require Protean [pro]. Any minion may burn this card as a
(D) action. If that minion is a vampire, he or she takes 1 damage
(damage not preventable) when this card is burned.

Little Tailor of Prague
Sabbat: When the Tailor recruits an ally or employs a retainer that
requires Tzimisce or Vicissitude, the cost is reduced by one blood or
pool. +1 bleed.

With a strict interpretation of "playing," an empty !Gangrel would not
be able to play a Claws of the Dead. The rules state that you need to
burn 1 blood (A) in order to play the card (B). And according to the
Path once you are playing the card (B), you then burn 1 less blood (C).
So A --> B --> C. Since you cannot do A in the first place, you cannot
do B nor C. A similar case exists if a !Gangrel with 1 blood wants to
play a Dual Form when the Path is in play.

Or look at the Little Tailor. The cost is reduced by one blood or pool
only when he recruits or employs. Since the card text refers to
"recruits" instead of recruiting and "employs" instead of "employing"
it would seem to only trigger when the event occurs, not during the
process of the action. The strict interpretation would mean that the
Little Tailor, when at 1 blood, could not attempt a recruit/employ
action that costs 2 blood even if his special would reduce that cost.
(Let's say he wants to employ a Revenant, when there's a Cold Amber
Revenant in play).

But the strict interpretation does NOT seem to be the case - an empty
!Gangrel can indeed play Claws. Same with the case of Dual Form and
Little Tailor even though those set up a delayed cost/burn reduction
which occur when the action is successful. Thus it makes sense that
Ravnos Carnival would follow in the same footsteps.

- Eric Chiang

[jnew...@difsol.com]

I'm pretty sure the key to this is that "having enough blood to pay
for" something doesn't (have to) mean that he must have X blood, where
X is the amount in the red drop. He (maybe) just has to have enough
that, counting modifiers that are in effect now (Paths, Sunset Strip,
Ravnos Carnival, etc.) he can satisfy the cost. Since it won't cost 2
blood, but instead two blood OR counters off the Ravnos Carnival, he
doesn't need two blood to attempt the action.

Since he won't pay for the card until he successfully completes the
action anyway, he has enough blood to pay the cost.

Still, if this is the intended effect, Ravnos Carnival should probably
be migrated the next time it's printed (if ever).

John