Venenation and Change of Target
freakdrivr
If you play Venenation, can you play a change of target immediately
afterwards? Or does the "before combat begins" mean you've passed the
"change of target phase"?
I think you've already passed the phase but I just wanted to
confirm...
thanks,
jds
Derek Ray
wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>If you play Venenation, can you play a change of target immediately
>afterwards? Or does the "before combat begins" mean you've passed the
>"change of target phase"?
There is no specific "change of target" phase -- there's only "before
combat begins", which is when Change of Target must be played.
Change of Target's relevant text reads:
"only usable when this minion is blocked".
Since playing a Venenation does not stop the minion from being
blocked, and Change of Target is -also- played before combat begins,
then I'd say Venenation/CoT is a legal play.
The INVERSE, playing CoT and then Venenation, would not work, since
CoT's effect cancels the current action - there is no longer a minion
being blocked to satisfy Venenation's card text.
Vicious and sneaky, but legal.
-- Derek
Thug of Atlanta
LSJ
Correct. Bot are usable after the block and before the combat.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Jason Bell
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> Derek Ray wrote:
freak...@ponymail.com (freakdrivr)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Hi all,
> > >
> > >If you play Venenation, can you play a change of target immediately
> > >afterwards? Or does the "before combat begins" mean you've passed the
> > >"change of target phase"?
> >
> > There is no specific "change of target" phase -- there's only "before
> > combat begins", which is when Change of Target must be played.
> >
> > Change of Target's relevant text reads:
> >
> > "only usable when this minion is blocked".
> >
> > Since playing a Venenation does not stop the minion from being
> > blocked, and Change of Target is -also- played before combat begins,
> > then I'd say Venenation/CoT is a legal play.
> >
> > The INVERSE, playing CoT and then Venenation, would not work, since
> > CoT's effect cancels the current action - there is no longer a minion
> > being blocked to satisfy Venenation's card text.
> >
> > Vicious and sneaky, but legal.
>
> Correct. Bot are usable after the block and before the combat.
Meaning the same sort of combo is allowed with Kiss of Ra,
I suppose.
- Jason Bell
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> > Correct. Bot are usable after the block and before the combat.
>
> Meaning the same sort of combo is allowed with Kiss of Ra,
> I suppose.
No; Kiss of Ra is played before the block succeeds. (card text).
(I don't see the benefit in slamming a vampire you hope to control,
either. :-)
_Fire_
Kiss of Ra/red Herring?
The Kiss of Ra
Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude attempts to
block this acting minion. <for>:The block attempt is canceled, the
blocking vampire burns two blood and the action is now blocked.
<FOR>:As above, and the blocking vampire goes into torpor.
Red Herring
<chi>Only usable when this acting vampire is blocked...(cancel action,
untap acting vampire, none of your vampires may do the same action
this round, at superior: As above and tap blocking minion)
Since "Kiss of Ra" states that the action is blocked the requirement
for "Red Herring" is fulfilled, but:
<A>Is there time after the kiss to play it?
<B>Is the Kiss canceled because action modifiers are canceled when I
play the "Red Herring".
(IMHO the combo should work...)
Gomi no Sensei
_Fire_ <fi...@localbar.com> wrote:
>If you can do this is it possible to do a somewhat similiar combo with
>Kiss of Ra/red Herring?
>The Kiss of Ra
>Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude attempts to
>block this acting minion. <for>:The block attempt is canceled, the
>blocking vampire burns two blood and the action is now blocked.
><FOR>:As above, and the blocking vampire goes into torpor.
>
>Red Herring
><chi>Only usable when this acting vampire is blocked...(cancel action,
>untap acting vampire, none of your vampires may do the same action
>this round, at superior: As above and tap blocking minion)
>Since "Kiss of Ra" states that the action is blocked the requirement
>for "Red Herring" is fulfilled, but:
><A>Is there time after the kiss to play it?
Timing isn't an issue in V:tES. Each effect resolves when played.
Break it down:
A acts.
B successfully blocks A.
A plays Kiss of Ra (superior), B goes into torpor, A is blocked*
*This is a blocking-minion-less block like that induced by Brujah
Frenzy.
At this point, A is acting and blocked, so meets all the requirements
for Red Herring.
><B>Is the Kiss canceled because action modifiers are canceled when I
>play the "Red Herring".
Red Herring doesn't say anything about canceling action modifiers. It
just cancels the action, and doesn't retroactively undo Kiss.
And, for extra sauce, Petru Sipos could play Venenation, Kiss of Ra, AND
Red Herring on the same block. Yow.
gomi
--
Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray
What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby
LSJ
No, since there is no blocking minion.
Jason Bell
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> Jason Bell wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> > > Correct. Bot are usable after the block and before the combat.
> >
> > Meaning the same sort of combo is allowed with Kiss of Ra,
> > I suppose.
>
> No; Kiss of Ra is played before the block succeeds. (card text).
>
> (I don't see the benefit in slamming a vampire you hope to control,
> either. :-)
I meant Change of Target + Kiss of Ra. Does this not work since
there is no combat to cancel?
- Jason Bell
Jason Bell
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> _Fire_ wrote:
> >
> > If you can do this is it possible to do a somewhat similiar combo with
> > Kiss of Ra/red Herring?
> > Since "Kiss of Ra" states that the action is blocked the requirement
> > for "Red Herring" is fulfilled, but:
> > <A>Is there time after the kiss to play it?
> > <B>Is the Kiss canceled because action modifiers are canceled when I
> > play the "Red Herring".
> > (IMHO the combo should work...)
>
> No, since there is no blocking minion.
Huh? If that's the case, why does The Kiss of Ra at superior read:
"As above, and the blocking vampire goes into torpor?"
- Jason Bell
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> > Jason Bell wrote:
> > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> > > > Correct. Bot are usable after the block and before the combat.
> > >
> > > Meaning the same sort of combo is allowed with Kiss of Ra,
> > > I suppose.
> >
> > No; Kiss of Ra is played before the block succeeds. (card text).
>
> there is no combat to cancel?
Correct. Change of Target doesn't work since there's no blocking minion.
LSJ
To let you know what to do with the would-be blocker.
_Fire_
I agree, there is a blocking minion only that he is not ready (don't
know if that changes anything). However Red Herring clearly states
that: "Only usable when this acting vampire is blocked." So even if
it's not blocked by some minion but rather some wierd card (don't know
if there are any) then you should still be able to play Red Herring...
Derek Ray
The entire effect of Kiss-My-Ra has to conclude before the next effect
can begin.
When KoR is played, there is a blocking minion... who is then sent
into torpor as a result of KoR's effect.
Torporized minions cannot block actions, so as an additional result of
KoR's effect, there is no blocking vampire, although the action is
still blocked due to card text on KoR. With no blocking vampire, Red
Herring's card text can't be satisfied.