LSJ: Malkavian Dementia & The Diamond Thunderbolt
vtesni...@hotmail.com
I control my prey's Harry the Malkavian through Malkavian Dementia
played in my previous masterphase.
Since i would loose control of Harry before i can do any uptap-phase
related stuff to him (eg. untap him, throw him off the khobar tower
etc) does this mean that the control change takes effect before my
turn starts and that I could cancel the control-change (just) before
my untap phase by playing The Diamond Thunderbolt, thereby preventing
the second part of the MD card-text to take effect ?
If i can play the TDT, does this mean i keep control of Harry '
forever ' , or just for another round (assuming he's still in play) ?
Thanks,
Thomas,
The Netherlands
Malkavian Dementia
Master.
Take control of a ready Malkavian that another Methuselah controls
until your next untap phase.
The Diamond Thunderbolt
Master: out-of-turn.
Only usable when control of a vampire you control is about to change
or when a vampire you control is about to enter combat. Control of
that vampire does not change, and that vampire gains 1 blood.
LSJ
> Couldn't find the following in previous postings:
>
> I control my prey's Harry the Malkavian through Malkavian Dementia
> played in my previous masterphase.
>
> Since i would loose control of Harry before i can do any uptap-phase
> related stuff to him (eg. untap him, throw him off the khobar tower
> etc) does this mean that the control change takes effect before my
> turn starts and that I could cancel the control-change (just) before
> my untap phase by playing The Diamond Thunderbolt, thereby preventing
> the second part of the MD card-text to take effect ?
>
> If i can play the TDT, does this mean i keep control of Harry '
> forever ' , or just for another round (assuming he's still in play) ?
It would be wasted, since the control granted by Malkavian Dementia is still
expired. When MD's effect ends , you could play Diamond Thunderbolt to stop the
change of control momentarily. But then control would again fall to the previous
controller, as there is no overriding temporary control effect around any more.
floppyzedolfin
I don't precisely know when the Malk is given back. It's either "just
before your turn" (when you decide to skip your turn if there's a
First Tradition in play), or "at the very begining of your untap
phase".
If the answer is case 1 (no one's turn), then playing an Out-of-Turn
master is not allowed ("You may play an out-of-turn master card
whenever appropriate during another player's turn.", rulebook
1.6.2.5) : not currently in someone else's turn.
If the answer is case 2 (some time during your untap), then playing an
Out-of-Turn master is not allowed ("You may play an out-of-turn master
card whenever appropriate during another player's turn.", rulebook
1.6.2.5) : not currently in someone else's turn.
So there is actually no way of giving the Malk an extra blood. Diamond
Thunderbolt can't be played on a Dementia'd Malkavian when it would be
given back.
LSJ
> I don't precisely know when the Malk is given back. It's either "just
> before your turn" (when you decide to skip your turn if there's a
> First Tradition in play), or "at the very begining of your untap
> phase".
> If the answer is case 1 (no one's turn), then playing an Out-of-Turn
> master is not allowed ("You may play an out-of-turn master card
> whenever appropriate during another player's turn.", rulebook
> 1.6.2.5) : not currently in someone else's turn.
If it's not your turn, then it is someone else's turn.
It's never "no one's turn".
Jozxyqk
> If it's not your turn, then it is someone else's turn.
> It's never "no one's turn".
If it is never "no one's turn", then when is the First Tradition
Decision made?
"A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn."
If this decision must be made during a turn, and everyone around
the table skips their turns before you get a chance to make your
decision, then how is this possible?
LSJ
The obvious way.
Some turn ends, leading to the result that it would be your turn*. You either
take your turn or don't (that's the choice).
* possibly with other seated Methuselahs skipping their turns leading up to you.
e.g.:
A: takes a turn, including putting First Tradition in play.
A's turn ends.
B chooses to skip B's turn
C chooses to skip C's turn
D chooses to take D's turn. During D's untap phase, D burns 2 pool for First Trad.
Jozxyqk
> > If this decision must be made during a turn, and everyone around
> > the table skips their turns before you get a chance to make your
> > decision, then how is this possible?
> The obvious way.
> Some turn ends, leading to the result that it would be your turn*. You either
> take your turn or don't (that's the choice).
> A: takes a turn, including putting First Tradition in play.
> A's turn ends.
> B chooses to skip B's turn
> C chooses to skip C's turn
> D chooses to take D's turn. During D's untap phase, D burns 2 pool for First Trad.
So, B must make a decision "at the end of A's turn" (during A's discard phase),
and then C must make the decision while it is still A's turn,
and then D must make the decision while it is still A's turn, at which point A's
turn ends and D's turn begins.
And then E makes his decision during D's discard phase, etc.
Correct?
This is relevant to a followup question that may get me $5 from Floppyzedolfin,
so consider your answer carefully ;)
Chris Berger
B makes his decision at the beginning of B's turn.
C makes his decision at the beginning of C's turn, etc...
Jozxyqk
> B makes his decision at the beginning of B's turn.
> C makes his decision at the beginning of C's turn, etc...
Nah, that implies that there's a "beginning of turn" before
untapping all your minions, which also implies that you could
use some hypothetical "during your turn" effect in the same
window. Let's not create phases that don't exist; you see
what happened with the old Madness Network.
LSJ
If you need the non-event of the decision to occur like an event, perhaps.
But it doesn't. Like the expiring of the control effect of Malkavian Dementia.
It just happens.
There's no difference, though, so feel free to treat it as occurring in A's turn
if it helps get past whatever obstacle (after all real events -- so during the
"as A's turn is ending" window).
To wit: A ending his turn and then B choosing to skip B's turn doesn't give A
the "impulse" and the ability to then choose to use or play some effect on A's turn.
B's choosing to skip B's turn just means that now it's C's time to choose.
Jozxyqk
> If you need the non-event of the decision to occur like an event, perhaps.
> But it doesn't. Like the expiring of the control effect of Malkavian Dementia.
> It just happens.
> There's no difference, though, so feel free to treat it as occurring in A's turn
> if it helps get past whatever obstacle (after all real events -- so during the
> "as A's turn is ending" window).
> To wit: A ending his turn and then B choosing to skip B's turn doesn't give A
> the "impulse" and the ability to then choose to use or play some effect on A's turn.
> B's choosing to skip B's turn just means that now it's C's time to choose.
OK, well here's the $5 question:
If Madness of the Bard is in play, and B chooses to skip B's turn without a rhyming
sentence, does he burn a pool? And if so, during whose turn does he burn the pool?
Chris Berger
There's no beginning of turn "phase", you can't use other effects at
the time, you just make the decision when your turn is starting
whether or not to skip it. I don't understand why everyone wants to
make timing effects more complicated than they are. Just because a
card or event happens at a certain time, doesn't make that time into
another entire separate phase where other effects can be played...
LSJ
Madness of the Bard is banned.
But he would lose the pool during the same turn as he would if he asked "A, is
your turn over?" (without claiming that question to be a rhyming sentence) or if
he said "Control of Harry the Malkavian goes back to Z" (without claiming that
statement to be a rhyming sentence).
That is, whenever he said the non-rhyming thing.
ben...@gmail.com
> Madness of the Bard is banned.
That's a V:EKN tournament rule, not a V:TES game rules issue.
- Ben Peal
LSJ
Fascinating.
That may explain the fact that my post went on after that line.
ben...@gmail.com
It's unlike you to include something of no relevance in an answer to
a rules question.
- Ben Peal
LSJ
True. And irrelevant to this thread, since the note above was relevant. Madness
of the Bard, which was being discussed, is indeed banned.
ben...@gmail.com
Madness of the Bard being banned in tournament play has nothing to
do with the question asked.
"If Madness of the Bard is in play, and B chooses to skip B's turn
without a rhyming
sentence, does he burn a pool? And if so, during whose turn does he
burn the pool? "
There's no mention of a V:EKN tournament at all in that question.
It's merely a V:TES rules question.
- Ben Peal, speculating that more people play with Madness of the
Bard in casual play than abide by the library maximum in Rule 1.2.1 of
the V:TES rulebook
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
>> benp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> LSJ wrote:
>>>> Ben Peal wrote:
>>>>> LSJ wrote:
>>>>>> Madness of the Bard is banned.
>>>>> That's a V:EKN tournament rule, not a V:TES game rules issue.
>>>> Fascinating.
>>>> That may explain the fact that my post went on after that line.
>>> It's unlike you to include something of no relevance in an answer to
>>> a rules question.
>> True. And irrelevant to this thread, since the note above was relevant. Madness
>> of the Bard, which was being discussed, is indeed banned.
>
> Madness of the Bard being banned in tournament play has nothing to
> do with the question asked.
>
> "If Madness of the Bard is in play, and B chooses to skip B's turn
> without a rhyming
> sentence, does he burn a pool? And if so, during whose turn does he
> burn the pool? "
>
> There's no mention of a V:EKN tournament at all in that question.
> It's merely a V:TES rules question.
All hair-splitting aside, the comment is still true and anyone who needed to
find something to take issue with in it would then be thwarted by the text that
followed (or possibly extremely driven in their need).
Whatever the case, my apologies to anyone who was offended by the completeness.