Winged Second questions (LSJ)
Stone
1/ Can a Winged Second make a melee weapon strike if Immortal Grapple has
been played ?
IG mentions "either combatant", with "either"="being the one and the other
of two " according to Merriam-Webster, so I guess the WS is not restricted
to hand strikes ?
2/ a Dodge protects from the WS's strike, but then this Dodge doesn't
protect from the regular opposing minion's strike ?
thanks
Stone
Name: Immortal Grapple
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, Sabbat:U, SW:U/PB, FN:PG, CE:U/PB2, Third:U, LotN:PG2,
KoT:U/PB3, HttB:PGar3]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Grapple.
[pot] Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by
either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round.
[POT] As above, with an optional press. If another round of combat occurs,
that round is at close range; skip the determine range step for that round.
Artist: Clint Langley; L. A. Williams; Avery Butterworth
Name: Winged Second
[LoB:R]
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Flight
[FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat with a
minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this minion may make
a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a strike card) on the
opposing minion during normal strike resolution (as if at close range).
Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention effects can treat this
as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion may be the target of
effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be.
Artist: Jeff Holt
LSJ
> Questions about Winged Second :
>
> 1/ Can a Winged Second make a melee weapon strike if Immortal Grapple has
> been played ?
Yes.
> IG mentions "either combatant", with "either"="being the one and the other
> of two " according to Merriam-Webster, so I guess the WS is not restricted
> to hand strikes ?
Correct. WS is not a combatant (and IG doesn't affect retainers. cf.
Ghoul Retainer).
> 2/ a Dodge protects from the WS's strike, but then this Dodge doesn't
> protect from the regular opposing minion's strike ?
It does.
The dodge is played normally. And WS's own card text adds an
additional bit to it.
Salem
>> Name: Winged Second
>> [LoB:R]
>> Cardtype: Reaction
>> Discipline: Flight
>> [FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat with a
>> minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this minion may make
>> a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a strike card) on the
>> opposing minion during normal strike resolution (as if at close range).
>> Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention effects can treat this
>> as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion may be the target of
>> effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be.
>> Artist: Jeff Holt
>
follow up question for everyone else:
any good deck ideas for using this? i have about 4 copies laying about
doing nothing.
i was thinking using it with Wakes, as it has a 'tap' as a side effect,
rather than a requirement for the effect.
but then with what? gargoyles? heralds of topheth? something else?
--
salem
Petri Wessman
> follow up question for everyone else:
>
> any good deck ideas for using this? i have about 4 copies laying about
> doing nothing.
>
> i was thinking using it with Wakes, as it has a 'tap' as a side effect,
> rather than a requirement for the effect.
>
> but then with what? gargoyles? heralds of topheth? something else?
Not really sure. It doesn't seem like a very hot card, tbh :/
Hmmm... can a Gargoyle acting as WS play Raking Talons (or other pre-
combat cards)? If yes, then having a small gargoyle pounce out of the
shadows and do the aggro-poke thing might be amusing. If not... meh.
Raking Talons
[Combat] Combat
[Gargoyle] Gargoyle
Only usable before range is determined.
For the remainder of combat, damage from this Gargoyle's hand strikes
is aggravated. A vampire may play only one Raking Talons each combat.
-Petri
LSJ
> Hmmm... can a Gargoyle acting as [Winged Second] play Raking Talons (or other pre-
> combat cards)? If yes, then having a small gargoyle pounce out of the
> shadows and do the aggro-poke thing might be amusing. If not... meh.
Not. Only combatants can play combat cards.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/0a576cab4cd69f07
Petri Wessman
Meh, then (but yeah, makes sense).
So the benefit you get from WS means an extra hand strike or melee
weapon strike. That it's too hot, especially since it also means
tapping the other minion. Aggro damage would be nice, of course, but
looking at the current available minions that doesn't leave too many
options.
Gargoyles don't have any strike cards that do aggro (or other
especially nasty stuff). A big potence strike is a possibility of
course, but... dunno. The only non-gargoyle minions with Flight
(usable outside combat) are the one Akunanse and a big Tzimisce,
neither of whom have strike cards that deal aggro iirc (both can do
aggro, but it requires a non-strike card to activate and won't work
with WS).
So nasty strike cards don't look too promising, unless I'm missing
something.
On the equipment side, Sengir Dagger or some such is of course an
option. Not sure if it's worth it, though... why not just equip the
Sengir (or whatever) on the blocking minion?
Still looking like a very weak card. Maybe someone can figure out an
angle ;)
-Petri
Chris Berger
> >> Name: Winged Second
> >> [LoB:R]
> >> Cardtype: Reaction
> >> Discipline: Flight
> >> [FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat with a
> >> minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this minion may make
> >> a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a strike card) on the
> >> opposing minion during normal strike resolution (as if at close range).
> >> Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention effects can treat this
> >> as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion may be the target of
> >> effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be.
> >> Artist: Jeff Holt
>
> follow up question for everyone else:
>
> any good deck ideas for using this? i have about 4 copies laying about
> doing nothing.
>
No.
In fact, that was the only thing I thought when I read the thread
subject (Winged Second questions? The only answer to Winged Second is
NO).
It's just bad.
Petri Wessman
> No.
>
> In fact, that was the only thing I thought when I read the thread
> subject (Winged Second questions? The only answer to Winged Second is
> NO).
>
> It's just bad.
Yeah ;)
The annoying thing with crappy cards is that there is a niggling need
to figure out *some* use for them, however cornercase. Or there is to
me, anyway :). But yeah, at the moment I'm drawing a total blank on
WS.
The good thing is that some crap cards do become decent with later
additions to the game... not holding my breath here, though.
-Petri
tigernat1
Any time Winged Second appears in the subject line of a newsgroup
entry, the body of the entry should be, "WHY was it printed?"
Really, this card would be useful if it didn't have 1 sentence...3
wallpapering little words....Tap this minion. With its current
wording, the card might as well read, "tap this minion to inflict 1
extra damage in this combat"...cause that is all it does!
Without "Tap this minion", the card would be similar to Aim or Ammo
cards. Perhaps if the card awarded a press, it could at least be
comparable to Twisting the Knife! Why does the card limit the strike
to hand or melee weapon? Pulled Fangs does more than this card with
less restrictions on it being played! Is having flight and another
minion blocking a minion without flight not enough of a requirement
that "Tap this minion" was deemed needed for the measly effect of
"make a hand strike?"
What is sad to realize is that the card had so much potential to open
up an interesting game mechanic, but fell flat on its arse! In the
playtest instructions, are the groups directed to look for grossly
UNDERPOWERED cards as well as broken cards?
Vegas gNat
soapbox pirate
Daneel
wrote:
> On May 17, 11:59ï¿œpm, Petri Wessman <or...@orava.org> wrote:
>> On May 17, 9:42ï¿œpm, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > No.
>>
>> > In fact, that was the only thing I thought when I read the thread
>> > subject (Winged Second questions? ï¿œThe only answer to Winged Second is
>> > NO).
>>
>> > It's just bad.
>>
>> Yeah ;)
>>
>> The annoying thing with crappy cards is that there is a niggling need
>> to figure out *some* use for them, however cornercase. Or there is to
>> me, anyway :). But yeah, at the moment I'm drawing a total blank on
>> WS.
>>
>> The good thing is that some crap cards do become decent with later
>> additions to the game... not holding my breath here, though.
>>
>> -Petri
>
> Any time Winged Second appears in the subject line of a newsgroup
> entry, the body of the entry should be, "WHY was it printed?"
Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, and don't have the card in front of
me, but can't you somehow combine it with folks who have aggravated hand
damage? At least that way it's almost as good as Goul Retainer + Ivory
Bow... :)
--
Regards,
Daneel
Amenophobis
> On Wed, 19 May 2010 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT), tigernat1 <tigern...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 17, 11:59 pm, Petri Wessman <or...@orava.org> wrote:
> >> On May 17, 9:42 pm, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> >> > No.
>
> >> > In fact, that was the only thing I thought when I read the thread
> >> > NO).
>
> >> > It's just bad.
>
> >> Yeah ;)
>
> >> The annoying thing with crappy cards is that there is a niggling need
> >> to figure out *some* use for them, however cornercase. Or there is to
> >> me, anyway :). But yeah, at the moment I'm drawing a total blank on
> >> WS.
>
> >> The good thing is that some crap cards do become decent with later
> >> additions to the game... not holding my breath here, though.
>
> >> -Petri
>
> > Any time Winged Second appears in the subject line of a newsgroup
> > entry, the body of the entry should be, "WHY was it printed?"
>
> Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, and don't have the card in front of
> me, but can't you somehow combine it with folks who have aggravated hand
> damage? At least that way it's almost as good as Goul Retainer + Ivory
> Bow... :)
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Daneel
You can always use Burning Wrath for your strike... but is it worth it?
Petri Wessman
> Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, and don't have the card in front of
> me, but can't you somehow combine it with folks who have aggravated hand
> damage? At least that way it's almost as good as Goul Retainer + Ivory
> Bow... :)
Nope (as discussed in this thread :D)
The WS minion can only play a strike card, it cannot play other combat
cards. None of the current minions with flight have built-in
aggravated damage, and would need to play non-strike cards to trigger
it (Raking Talons, etc) -- which they are not allowed to do.
The only aggro option that occurs to be is a melee weapon which goes
aggro. This means:
- Black Gloves
- Femur of Toomler
- Kali's Fang
- Sengir Dagger
Those are all quite valuable weapons (and are all unique). Since using
the WS means tapping the minion.... mah. Sure, you *could* Wake + WS
with a minion with one of those... but is it really worth the bother?
(hint: not :).
Now, in the future if we were to get a minion with Flight and built-in
aggro-damage, WS *might* be worth including in that deck. Maybe.
-Petri
Petri Wessman
> You can always use Burning Wrath for your strike... but is it worth it?
Ah yes, forgot about Burning Wrath. I'd say "not worth it" there too:
why not just play it with the main minion in the combat (along with a
Grapple etc)? Sure, in some borderline cases you wouldn't have enough
blood on that minion and *would* have it on a WS minion... but that's
way too borderline to be useful.
-Petri
Petri Wessman
> The only aggro option that occurs to be is a melee weapon which goes
> aggro. This means:
This should obviously be "occurs to me is a melee weapon which does".
Never post without drinking the coffee *first* :}
-Petri
Chris Berger
>
> What is sad to realize is that the card had so much potential to open
> up an interesting game mechanic, but fell flat on its arse! In the
> playtest instructions, are the groups directed to look for grossly
> UNDERPOWERED cards as well as broken cards?
>
Generally, it seems like observations of grossly underpowered cards
aren't taken as seriously as observations of overpowered cards.
Probably for good reason, since, according to reports, many thought
the playtested version of Villein was underpowered, leading to the
monster card that was eventually released.
Slightly off topic, I wonder if maybe there's some use for the similar
card Free Fight. To be honest, I think it's just as bad as Winged
Second, but maybe there's a way to actually use *that* card...
Free Fight
[Combat]
[Sanguinus]
Only usable before range is determined.
[san] Tap this Blood Brother and any number of ready untapped members
you control of this circle. Once each round before range is
determined, or whenever your combatant leaves the ready region, you
may choose one of these ready Blood Brothers to become the combatant
instead (and combat continues).
[SAN] As above, and each of these Blood Brothers gets an optional
press this combat.
On second thought, I think that's actually WORSE than Winged Second...
Petri Wessman
> Slightly off topic, I wonder if maybe there's some use for the similar
> card Free Fight. To be honest, I think it's just as bad as Winged
> Second, but maybe there's a way to actually use *that* card...
>
> Free Fight
> [Combat]
> [Sanguinus]
> Only usable before range is determined.
> [san] Tap this Blood Brother and any number of ready untapped members
> you control of this circle. Once each round before range is
> determined, or whenever your combatant leaves the ready region, you
> may choose one of these ready Blood Brothers to become the combatant
> instead (and combat continues).
> [SAN] As above, and each of these Blood Brothers gets an optional
> press this combat.
>
> On second thought, I think that's actually WORSE than Winged Second...
Well, it's certainly verging on craptastic, but I don't think it's
*quite* as useless as WS.
I mean, at SAN you can always use it to get a press. As for the "swap
minions" ability... that *might* be useful in some sort of Trap-based
deck. Being able to swap minions would protect you against the target
pulling off something unexpected where your main minion would go to
torpor before the target. And of course, that extra press is good for
keeping the Trap going.
The cost is the tapping of the extra minion(s) (but of course you
don't have to pick any, giving you just that press for the main
combatant). If you're rushing (or bleeding and got blocked), that main
minion will be tapped anyway, so the "tap" cost doesn't matter much
for it. Of course, tapping that extra minion means it won't be doing
other stuff, so... It *might* be worth it against a target that you
really want to take down, when you don't have extra rush cards in hand
at the moment.
There is an extra tactical possibility here, too: if your weak minion
gets blocked, can't you use FF to immediately swap in a more dangerous
BB into the combat? A BB without blood is forced to hunt, someone
blocks anticipating an easy takedown, and a tooled-up Angelo jumps
into the ring instead via FF. I can certainly see that being useful
now and then.
It's not great, no. It's not even all that good. But I could see
myself including a copy in some combat-oriented BB decks, maybe.
-Petri