Summary of Official Errata
L. Scott Johnson
and
Answers from Thomas Wylie Through: 08/29/95
Recent additions are marked with !NEW!
-------------------------------------------
A vampire can only have one title. If it is given another one, the old title
is ignored, even if the new title would be a demotion. [RTR]
Caitiff are clanless. [RTR]
Dodges are always strikes, even if a card forgets to say so. [RTR]
Retainers can only be targetted if the round of combat is at long range. [RTR]
Retainers are never optional. [RTR]
Equipment is always optional. [RTR]
Combat cannot occur in Torpor. [RTR]
The cost for Rescuing another Methuselah's vampire from torpor must be
paid solely by the acting vampire. [RTR]
Combat occurs *after* the block - not as a part of it. [RTR]
Multiple additional strike cards may be played each round, although
only the first will actually bestow any additional strikes. [RTR]
Contested Vampires are out of the game excpet WRT their titles. A contested
Vampire with a contested Title must yield the Title. [TOM 950817]
============================================================================
CARD-SPECIFIC RULINGS
Anarch Troublemaker - Unique Master:
May tap up to two minions. [RTR]
Can only be "activated" during untap. [RTR] (*Whose* untap is up in the air).
Army of Rats - Action (an):
Having multiple copies out are not cumulative (errata). [RTR]
Arson - Action:
Cannot be attempted against a location which is Contested. [RTR]
Astrid Thomas - Vampire:
Tremere can choose to abstain. [RTR]
Betrayer - Master:
Each of their turns, the person subjected to Betrayer names a vampire.
If the guess is correct, Betrayer is burned. [RTR]
Can be damaged by multiple Betrayers each turn. [RTR]
If the vampire chosen for Betrayer is burned, so is Betrayer. [RTR]
If the vampire chosen for Betrayer becomes contested, Betrayer is
nullified until the contention is resolved, at which time the Betrayer
is reactivated. [RTR]
If a player takes control of the vampire that is the target of the betrayer,
that player takes the pool loss. [RTR]
Black Cat - Vampire:
The lower pool cost is used for purposes of cards such as Peace Treaty.
If she is equipped with something and that equipment is transferred to
another minion, then it regains its normal pool value.
Conversely, if a piece of equipment moves onto her, its effective pool cost
is lowered by 1. [RTR]
Blood Bond - Action:
Is a directed action. [RTR]
It's effect will cease when the targetted vampire leaves play. [RTR]
Blood Doll - Master:
The Methuselah controlling the Vampire gets the benefit of the Blood Doll.
[RTR]
Multiple Blood Dolls are cumulative. [TOM 950725]
The ability to play multiple Master cards in no way affects the use of the
Blood Doll. [TOM 950725]
Blood Rage - Combat (th): requires thaumaturgy, not fortitude. [RTR]
Bonding - Action Modifier (do):
Only one of Bonding, Conditioning, or Threats may be used during an action,
but any number of that CARD may be played (by different minions) [TOM]
Brainwash - Master:
Transfers may not be made to the vampire - neither to put blood on nor to
move blood off. [RTR]
Brujah Frenzy - Master Out-of-Turn:
There is no time to play further action modifiers or reactions before combat
begins. [TOM 950829]
# While the action is treated as a blocked action, the "blocking" Vampire is
# not actually "attempting to block" the action, so no block-related costs
# are paid (except that the blocker is tapped). [TOM 950829]
This card only causes combat. It does not cause a block. [RTR] !NEW!
Business Pressure - Action Modifier:
Can only be used during a political action. Consider this errata. [RTR]
Cat Burglary - Action (ce):
The inferior version to just bleed at +1 stealth, maximum of 1 bleed. The
superior version is to bleed any player in this manner (errata). [RTR]
Charming Lobby - Action (ps):
This card requires three vampires to be effective: one to play Charming
Lobby, another to call the first vote, and the third to call the second
vote. Only votes which are successfully called apply. [RTR]
[So a bloodhunt vote would not qualify, since a vampire didn't call it -lsj]
Charnas the Imp - Retainer (Tre) (1):
Does nothing to an empty vampire which untaps in torpor. [RTR]
Cannot be damaged by host, but does not stop host from using effects which
would normally damage it. For example, the host can use Body of Sun, but
would not damage Charnas as a result. [RTR]
Chantry - Master: Unique Location (Tre):
Using the Chantry is optional. [RTR]
Cryptic Rider - Action Modifier:
May only be used after a referndum is successful, not simply a successful
political action (unblocked vote). [RTR]
Dawn Operation - Action Modifier (fo):
Should be read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
Deflection - Reaction (do) (1):
Cost is paid from the vampire, not from your pool (errata). [RTR]
Cannot be used to direct a bleed to a Methuselah who would be an
invalid target for a bleed (after Minor Boon, e.g.) [RTR]
Disarming Presence - Action Modifier (ps):
The tapping is a side effect, not a cost, so tapped vampires can still
vote. [RTR]
Disputed Territory - Politcal Action:
The political action symbol is missing, but it is a political action. [RTR]
Domain Challenge - Politcal Action:
Tapped minions are counted after the vote is completed. [RTR]
Eagle's Sight - Reaction (au):
Does not allow a vampire to block an unblockable action. [RTR]
Elder Kindred Network - has no effect on a successful Referendum. [TOM]
Enchant Kindred - Action (ps):
May be used to influence another Methuselah's uncontrolled vampire.
If that vampire turns out to not be younger than the acting vampire,
then no blood is placed. For example, if Helena Casimir uses Enchant
Kindred on someone else's vampire that turns out to be Democritus, the
action simply doesn't do anything. The acting player does not find
out that she tried to put blood on Democritus, and only knows that it
must be some 10-blood vampire. This applies to all similar cards,
such as Govern the Unaligned. [RTR]
Fame - Unique Master:
Fame is a unique master card, and should be contested as such. [RTR]
May be played on a vampire in Torpor. [RTR]
Flesh of Marble - Combat (pt):
Reduces all damage *that was not prevented* to one point. [RTR]
Form of Mist - Combat (pt):
If the superior form is used to continue an action, then all action
modifiers, including stealth and Dawn Operation, are still in effect. [RTR]
The superior version can be used by a blocking vampire, but this will
not cause the action to be continued. [RTR]
Frenzy - Master: Out-of-Turn:
May be played even if you have no minions involved in combat. [RTR]
Ghoul Retainer - Retainer (2):
Read as "Each round of combat, Ghoul can use hands for 1 damage
or a weapon of the employing minion that the minion is not
presently using." [RTR]
Gird Minions - Master:
May be used on a vampire in torpor. [RTR]
Glaser Rounds - Combat:
Must wait until the second time a given gun is used in a given combat. [RTR]
Govern the Unaligned - Action (do):
May be used to influence another Methuselah's uncontrolled vampire.
If that vampire turns out to not be younger than the acting vampire,
then no blood is placed. For example, if Helena Casimir uses Govern
the Unaligned on someone else's vampire that turns out to be
Democritus, the action simply doesn't do anything. The acting player
does not find out that she tried to put blood on Democritus, and only
knows that it must be some 10-blood vampire. This applies to all
similar cards, such as Enchant Kindred. [RTR]
Haven Uncovered - Master:
Does not allow its victim to be attacked while its victim is in torpor. [RTR]
Hidden Lurker - Action (ob):
The card is an Action, as printed. [RTR]
High Stakes - Political Action (Ven):
The last two sentences are talking to each player, not just the player
playing High Stakes. [RTR]
Hunting Grounds - Master. Unique Location (Clan):
All Hunting Grounds should be read as "received by a given vampire",
not "given to a vampire". [RTR]
Kindred Society Games - Master (Tor):
The last sentence is vague. Replace it with "If the vampire doesn't
untap but instead moves the Society Games on, but there is no tapped
younger vampire to move it to, Society Games is burned instead." [RTR]
Malkavian Dementia - Master:
# You lose control of that Malkavian when you start your untap phase. This
# is not an untap effect that you order among your other untap effects; it
# happens when the phase begins. You do not untap the Malkavian [TOM]
Losing control of the Demented Malkavian *IS* an effect that you may order
among your other untap effects (including yielding the Malk) [RTR] !NEW!
You *do* untap the Malkavian at the start of your untap phase. [RTR] !NEW!
If you are ousted while you have control of a Demented Malkavian, the
Malkavian is burned as normal. [RTR]
Malkavian Madness Network - Unique Master (Mal):
Reaction Cards may not be played on your own turn. Action cards may not be
played except on your own turn. The Madness Network does not change whose
turn it is. [RTR]
Malkavians do not have to be Ready to benefit from the Network. [RTR]
Malkavians may block *in addition* to the normaly eligible blockers. [RTR]
Malkavian Time Auction - Master (Mal):
The Methuselah playing the Time Auction cannot bid (errata). [RTR]
Mask of 1000 Faces - Action Modifier (ob):
Masking a "leave Topor" action results in neither Vampire leaving Torpor and
no blood cost being paid. If the action is blocked, the blocking minion
cannot commit diablerie, and combat does not result. [RTR] !NEW!
The Mask cannot be used to allow a vampire to take over an action he is
explicitly prohibited from taking. [RTR] !NEW!
Minion Tap - Master:
May be used on a vampire in torpor. [RTR]
Minor Boon - Master Out-of-Turn:
Is played after the combat ends, retracting the vampire from Torpor. [RTR]
Monocle of Clarity - Unique Equipment:
Questions about questions may not be asked [RTR].
Questions can only pertain to the current game. [RTR]
Question about the future are only binding until your next untap. [RTR]
Murder of Crows - Retainer (an) (1):
Follows all Wolf Companion rulings, except that the damage can happen
when the combat is at range. [RTR]
Psyche - Combat (ce):
The superior version re-blocks as well as starts a new combat, neutralizing
any effect from superior Form of Mist. [RTR]
Pulled Fangs - Combat:
Used during the press step, and counts up damage successfully inflicted
during the round by the opposing minion (retainers don't count). [RTR]
The actions to burn this card may be taken by different vampires, and may
be taken on different turns. [RTR]
More than one Pulled Fangs card may be played on a Vampire in the same round.
[RTR] !NEW!
Rapid Healing - Action (fo):
Read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
Rotshreck - Master Out-Of-Turn:
This card affects the Vampire dealing aggravated damage. [RTR]
Scorn of Adonis - Action Modifier (Tor):
Must be played before Voting starts. [RTR]
Society of Leopold - Unique Master:
Moving the Society is a directed action. [RTR]
Spying Mission - Action Modifier (ob):
After successfully being played, it must be burned on the next unblocked
bleed against the same Methuselah, provided the bleed is not reduced to
zero by other modifiers. [TOM]
Taste of Vitae - combat:
Counts all blood burned to any cause (healing, card cost, etc.) [RTR] !NEW!
The Embrace - Action (2):
The vampire created by this card is of the same clan as the acting
vampire. [RTR]
The Second Tradition - Domain - Reaction (Prince/Justicar):
Only usable by a tapped Prince or Justicar. This vampire untaps and
attempts to block at +2 intercept. (errata) [RTR]
The Third Tradition - Progeny - Action (Prince/Justicar) (1):
The vampire created is of the same clan as the acting vampire. [RTR]
The Elysium - Master - Unique Location:
May be used even if you have no minions in the combat. [RTR]
Uriah Winter - Vampire:
Can still defect if in torpor, and will remain in torpor if he does so. [RTR]
Ventrue Justicar - Political Action (Ven):
Makes the vampire Justicar of the Ventrue, not Justicar of
the Tremere. Title is misspelled. [RTR]
Weather Control - Combat (th) (?):
Multiple Weather Controls are cumulative. [TOM 950710]
Wolf Companion - Retainer (an) (1):
The damage is not a strike, so cannot be prevented by a dodge. [RTR]
The damage is done during normal damage dealing, so a Combat Ends will stop
it, as will sending its controller to torpor during first strike. [RTR]
Only does damage at close range. [RTR]
Does not gain any additional strikes of its controller. [RTR]
As with any retainer, the number of lives is set when it is recruited, and
will not change if its controller's level of Animalism changes. [RTR]
Zip Gun - Combat:
Ammo cards just modify the strike, not the damage done to the wielder. [RTR]
============================================================================
[TOM] Tom Wylie - WotC Net Representative
[RTR] WotC Rules Team Ruling
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text.
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger. |
L. Scott Johnson
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:>I think you mean 9/6/95 :)
Right.
>>Retainers can only be targetted if the round of combat is at long range. [RTR]
>This is true of VTES, not of Jyhad.
I do not distinguish, sorry.
>A few of these entries, like this one...
>... and this one, are clarifications rather than errata.
>... and this is a ruling, not errata. I guess you just need to fix the
>header on this message.
OK.
>> Can only be "activated" during untap. [RTR] (*Whose* untap is up in the air)
>
>Should be during your untap.
>
>>Astrid Thomas - Vampire:
>> Tremere can choose to abstain. [RTR]
>... unless they had voted prior to Astrid's vote.
Guess it's not obvious, eh?
>>Blood Bond - Action:
>> It's effect will cease when the targetted vampire leaves play. [RTR]
>"Its" :)
Thank you.
>>Dawn Operation - Action Modifier (fo):
>> Should be read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
>
>That's not really errata, or a ruling, since only vampires have Fortitude.
It didn't change minion to vampire - it changed "If the play of this card
is blocked" to "if the action this card modifies is blocked"
>>Eagle's Sight - Reaction (au):
>> Does not allow a vampire to block an unblockable action. [RTR]
>
>More generally, all superior Eagle's Sight does is break the rule saying
>who gets to block which action. The vampire must still raise its intercept
>level if needed, could not get around Seduction, etc.
Good, clear.
>>Fame - Unique Master:
>> Fame is a unique master card, and should be contested as such. [RTR]
>
>errata
Errata from the RTR is still labelled [RTR].
>> May be played on a vampire in Torpor. [RTR]
>Though this does not cause immediate loss of pool.
I actually left this in as a jibe on the spurios ruling.
Fame may *not* be played on a vampire in torpor (card text).
You've corrected yourself before, but the ruling is still official.
Any word on an official fix, or are you really errata'ing the card?
>>Ghoul Retainer - Retainer (2):
>> Read as "Each round of combat, Ghoul can use hands for 1 damage
>> or a weapon of the employing minion that the minion is not
>> presently using." [RTR]
>
>"uses" is clearer than "can use"
Right - mandatory (not equipment) .
>>Malkavian Madness Network - Unique Master (Mal):
>> Malkavians do not have to be Ready to benefit from the Network. [RTR]
>
>Which really only means that they can rescue themselves from torpor via
>the Network. Not, for example, that they can block while in torpor.
Yeah - too much to keep track of on that card :-)
>>Mask of 1000 Faces - Action Modifier (ob):
>> The Mask cannot be used to allow a vampire to take over an action he is
>> explicitly prohibited from taking. [RTR] !NEW!
>
>Though it still gets around implicit restrictions such as not having
>the proper discipline for an action.
OK? I don't see a change needed.
>>Psyche - Combat (ce):
>> The superior version re-blocks as well as starts a new combat, neutralizing
>> any effect from superior Form of Mist. [RTR]
>
>It doesn't cause another block (Aching Beauty would not be triggered, for
>example); it just trumps Form of Mist, and prevents the action from continuing
>successfully.
>
Right. That got in before th FoM stir-up.
>>Rapid Healing - Action (fo):
>> Read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
>
>Again, not really errata or ruling. It should be obvious from the rest of
>the card that only vampires can use the action.
The Errata list 11/9/94 had this text verbatim, so I'll include it.
It was errata at some point. Issue more errata if necessary to undo it.
>>The Second Tradition - Domain - Reaction (Prince/Justicar):
>> Only usable by a tapped Prince or Justicar. This vampire untaps and
>> attempts to block at +2 intercept. (errata) [RTR]
>
>This is not errata so much as instructions on how to read the (far less
>than ideal) text.
It adds a word to change the meaning of the card. That's errata.
Even WotC thought it was Errata at one time:
From: aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster,alt.games.jyhad
Subject: REPOST/UPDATE: Errata to cards for Jyhad
Date: 9 Nov 1994 12:52:59 -0800
The Second Tradition - Domain:
Should be read as "Prince or Justicar. Only usable by a tapped
vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to block with +2 intercept."
--
-----
L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) | The opinions expressed are mine
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger | and subject to card text
Thomas R Wylie
I think you mean 9/6/95 :)
>Retainers can only be targetted if the round of combat is at long range. [RTR]
This is true of VTES, not of Jyhad.
>Combat occurs *after* the block - not as a part of it. [RTR]
A few of these entries, like this one...
>Multiple additional strike cards may be played each round, although
> only the first will actually bestow any additional strikes. [RTR]
... and this one, are clarifications rather than errata.
>Anarch Troublemaker - Unique Master:
> May tap up to two minions. [RTR]
... and this is a ruling, not errata. I guess you just need to fix the
header on this message.
> Can only be "activated" during untap. [RTR] (*Whose* untap is up in the air)
Should be during your untap.
>Astrid Thomas - Vampire:
> Tremere can choose to abstain. [RTR]
... unless they had voted prior to Astrid's vote.
>Blood Bond - Action:
> It's effect will cease when the targetted vampire leaves play. [RTR]
"Its" :)
>Charming Lobby - Action (ps):
> This card requires three vampires to be effective: one to play Charming
> Lobby, another to call the first vote, and the third to call the second
> vote. Only votes which are successfully called apply. [RTR]
> [So a bloodhunt vote would not qualify, since a vampire didn't call it -lsj]
True.
>Dawn Operation - Action Modifier (fo):
> Should be read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
That's not really errata, or a ruling, since only vampires have Fortitude.
>Disputed Territory - Politcal Action:
> The political action symbol is missing, but it is a political action. [RTR]
errata
>Eagle's Sight - Reaction (au):
> Does not allow a vampire to block an unblockable action. [RTR]
More generally, all superior Eagle's Sight does is break the rule saying
who gets to block which action. The vampire must still raise its intercept
level if needed, could not get around Seduction, etc.
>Fame - Unique Master:
> Fame is a unique master card, and should be contested as such. [RTR]
errata
> May be played on a vampire in Torpor. [RTR]
Though this does not cause immediate loss of pool.
>Ghoul Retainer - Retainer (2):
> Read as "Each round of combat, Ghoul can use hands for 1 damage
> or a weapon of the employing minion that the minion is not
> presently using." [RTR]
"uses" is clearer than "can use"
>Malkavian Madness Network - Unique Master (Mal):
> Malkavians do not have to be Ready to benefit from the Network. [RTR]
Which really only means that they can rescue themselves from torpor via
the Network. Not, for example, that they can block while in torpor.
>Mask of 1000 Faces - Action Modifier (ob):
> The Mask cannot be used to allow a vampire to take over an action he is
> explicitly prohibited from taking. [RTR] !NEW!
Though it still gets around implicit restrictions such as not having
the proper discipline for an action.
>Psyche - Combat (ce):
> The superior version re-blocks as well as starts a new combat, neutralizing
> any effect from superior Form of Mist. [RTR]
It doesn't cause another block (Aching Beauty would not be triggered, for
example); it just trumps Form of Mist, and prevents the action from continuing
successfully.
>Rapid Healing - Action (fo):
> Read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
Again, not really errata or ruling. It should be obvious from the rest of
the card that only vampires can use the action.
>Society of Leopold - Unique Master:
> Moving the Society is a directed action. [RTR]
errata
>The Embrace - Action (2):
> The vampire created by this card is of the same clan as the acting
> vampire. [RTR]
errata
>The Second Tradition - Domain - Reaction (Prince/Justicar):
> Only usable by a tapped Prince or Justicar. This vampire untaps and
> attempts to block at +2 intercept. (errata) [RTR]
This is not errata so much as instructions on how to read the (far less
than ideal) text.
>The Third Tradition - Progeny - Action (Prince/Justicar) (1):
> The vampire created is of the same clan as the acting vampire. [RTR]
errata
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
CurtAdams
>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>>Ghoul Retainer - Retainer (2):
>> Read as "Each round of combat, Ghoul can use hands for 1 damage
>> or a weapon of the employing minion that the minion is not
>> presently using." [RTR]
>"uses" is clearer than "can use"
No, both are perfectly clear. They're just different.
>>Psyche - Combat (ce):
>> The superior version re-blocks as well as starts a new combat,
neutralizing
>> any effect from superior Form of Mist. [RTR]
>It doesn't cause another block (Aching Beauty would not be triggered, for
>example); it just trumps Form of Mist, and prevents the action from
continuing
>successfully.
That's errata. There's nothing on either Psyche or Form of Mist to
indicate that Psyche cancels a FoM. I assume the implicit ruling is that
FoM is supposed to say "if the vampire is forced to enter combat again,
the action is not continued" but it doesn't say that. (Not to say it
SHOULDN'T, just it DOESN'T)
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
James C. Clover
>>>Dawn Operation - Action Modifier (fo):
>>> Should be read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
>>
>>That's not really errata, or a ruling, since only vampires have Fortitude.
>It didn't change minion to vampire - it changed "If the play of this card
>is blocked" to "if the action this card modifies is blocked"
Dawn Operation is an action modifier. Therefore, the play of the card
CANNOT be blocked. So the text MUST refer to the action the card
modifies. Conclusion: No erratum or ruling or note of any kind is
necessary.
--
Simeon
----------------------------
simeo...@bbs.fullcoll.edu
Thomas R Wylie
L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>>>Retainers can only be targetted if the round of combat is at long range.
>I do not distinguish, sorry.
Well, they *are* different editions of a game, and therefore slightly
different entities. It should be noted when a ruling applies to one
but not to the other.
>>>Astrid Thomas - Vampire:
>>> Tremere can choose to abstain. [RTR]
>>... unless they had voted prior to Astrid's vote.
>Guess it's not obvious, eh?
It should be obvious that a vampire can't take back its vote once it's
cast it. Given that Astrid is editing the votes of other Tremere, it
seems useful to reminder the reader of this in her entry.
>>>Dawn Operation - Action Modifier (fo):
>>> Should be read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
>>That's not really errata, or a ruling, since only vampires have Fortitude.
>It didn't change minion to vampire - it changed "If the play of this card
>is blocked" to "if the action this card modifies is blocked"
I wonder which card I looked up that said "minion", then. Weird.
>>>Fame - Unique Master:
>>> Fame is a unique master card, and should be contested as such. [RTR]
>>errata
>Errata from the RTR is still labelled [RTR].
But some of what's labeled as [RTR] is rulings, and others are errata
(from what I remember of the list), so it should be marking the errata
as separate.
>>> May be played on a vampire in Torpor. [RTR]
>>Though this does not cause immediate loss of pool.
>I actually left this in as a jibe on the spurios ruling.
>Fame may *not* be played on a vampire in torpor (card text).
>You've corrected yourself before, but the ruling is still official.
>Any word on an official fix, or are you really errata'ing the card?
Blah. Well, that's a rather well-ingrained misread on my part. Yeah,
you can delete that entry.
>>>Mask of 1000 Faces - Action Modifier (ob):
>>> The Mask cannot be used to allow a vampire to take over an action he is
>>> explicitly prohibited from taking. [RTR] !NEW!
>>Though it still gets around implicit restrictions such as not having
>>the proper discipline for an action.
>OK? I don't see a change needed.
It just seems to me you want an at least superficial definition
of "explicitly prohibited".
>>>Rapid Healing - Action (fo):
>>> Read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
>>Again, not really errata or ruling. It should be obvious from the rest of
>>the card that only vampires can use the action.
>The Errata list 11/9/94 had this text verbatim, so I'll include it.
>It was errata at some point. Issue more errata if necessary to undo it.
It occurs to me now that this was probably to keep the wording consistent
with Dawn Operation, so never mind.
>>>The Second Tradition - Domain - Reaction (Prince/Justicar):
>>> Only usable by a tapped Prince or Justicar. This vampire untaps and
>>> attempts to block at +2 intercept. (errata) [RTR]
>>This is not errata so much as instructions on how to read the (far less
>>than ideal) text.
>It adds a word to change the meaning of the card. That's errata.
Ah, right, it's the "only" that's errata. I'd forgotten.
Thomas R Wylie
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>Ghoul Retainer - Retainer (2):
>>> Read as "Each round of combat, Ghoul can use hands for 1 damage
>>> or a weapon of the employing minion that the minion is not
>>> presently using." [RTR]
>>"uses" is clearer than "can use"
Given the arguments in this group over whether Ghoul Retainer is allowed
to simply do nothing, I maintain that "uses" is clearer than "can use".
>>>Psyche - Combat (ce):
>That's errata. There's nothing on either Psyche or Form of Mist to
>indicate that Psyche cancels a FoM. I assume the implicit ruling is that
>FoM is supposed to say "if the vampire is forced to enter combat again,
>the action is not continued" but it doesn't say that. (Not to say it
>SHOULDN'T, just it DOESN'T)
I really think this is just a ruling on a confusing interaction, not
the sort of thing that requires going back and issuing errata to any cards.
Specifically, the ruling is trying to define what it means to
"continue an action", which is not an issue specific to Form of Mist.
Alan Kwan
>
>Dawn Operation is an action modifier. Therefore, the play of the card
>CANNOT be blocked.
You forgot the exception - Hidden Lurker :-)
--
"Live Life with Heart."
Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu
L. Scott Johnson
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>>>Dawn Operation - Action Modifier (fo):
>>>> Should be read as "If this vampire is blocked..." [RTR]
>>>That's not really errata, or a ruling, since only vampires have Fortitude.
>>It didn't change minion to vampire - it changed "If the play of this card
>>is blocked" to "if the action this card modifies is blocked"
>
That would be Concealed weapon - the only skill-based card to be used
by a "minion" instead of a "Vampire". (Wonder why :-).
CurtAdams
>CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>Ghoul Retainer - Retainer (2):
>>>> Read as "Each round of combat, Ghoul can use hands for 1 damage
>>>> or a weapon of the employing minion that the minion is not
>>>> presently using." [RTR]
>>>"uses" is clearer than "can use"
>>No, both are perfectly clear. They're just different.
>Given the arguments in this group over whether Ghoul Retainer is allowed
>to simply do nothing, I maintain that "uses" is clearer than "can use".
There's been no discussion on this issue in any group I'm aware of;
everybody I've ever spoken to (other than you) has said that the current
text indicates action is optional.
Well, English is fairly clear with some things. "Can use x" means there
is an option, to use x or not to use x. Making x a compound statement
changes this not at all. If you want to say that something must be done,
you use "uses x" or "must use x". Again, whether x is compound makes no
difference. "Can use hands or weapon" is how you indicate an option to do
nothing; "Uses hands or weapon" is how you indicate a use is obligatory,
but there is a choice on what is used.
>>>>Psyche - Combat (ce):
>>That's errata. There's nothing on either Psyche or Form of Mist to
>>indicate that Psyche cancels a FoM. I assume the implicit ruling is
that
>>FoM is supposed to say "if the vampire is forced to enter combat again,
>>the action is not continued" but it doesn't say that. (Not to say it
>>SHOULDN'T, just it DOESN'T)
>I really think this is just a ruling on a confusing interaction, not
>the sort of thing that requires going back and issuing errata to any
cards.
>Specifically, the ruling is trying to define what it means to
>"continue an action", which is not an issue specific to Form of Mist.
Obviously after FoM is played, at some point the action become unblocked
(well, "as if unblocked"). Since there are no conditions (i.e. "becomes
unblocked if combat is successfully ended") this must happen at the
resolution of the S:CE. So when Psyche hits the table, there is a minion
taking an unblocked action who has just completed combat (nothing
contradictory about that, we all know that being blocked and being in
combat are different). Hence for the action to be blocked, Pschye must
re-block it, and Psyche has no such text. So if there is no errata, the
action remains unblocked. There is absolutely nothing in the game to
indicate that forcing an unblocked acting minion into combat blocks the
action.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
Thomas R Wylie
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Ghoul Retainer...
>>Given the arguments in this group over whether Ghoul Retainer is allowed
>>to simply do nothing, I maintain that "uses" is clearer than "can use".
>There's been no discussion on this issue in any group I'm aware of;
>everybody I've ever spoken to (other than you) has said that the current
>text indicates action is optional.
Whups. I'm thinking of the general discusions as to whether using
retainers or equipment is optional, not a discussion specific to
Ghoul Retainer. I still think it's better to change any rephrasing
of Ghoul Retainer to eliminate the reading that it can choose to do nothing.
>Well, English is fairly clear with some things. "Can use x" means there
>is an option, to use x or not to use x. Making x a compound statement
>changes this not at all. If you want to say that something must be done,
>you use "uses x" or "must use x". Again, whether x is compound makes no
>difference. "Can use hands or weapon" is how you indicate an option to do
>nothing; "Uses hands or weapon" is how you indicate a use is obligatory,
>but there is a choice on what is used.
Which is why I said the wording should probably be changed...
>Obviously after FoM is played, at some point the action become unblocked
>(well, "as if unblocked"). Since there are no conditions (i.e. "becomes
>unblocked if combat is successfully ended") this must happen at the
>resolution of the S:CE...
The ruling, which I agree with, is that successfully "continuing the action"
entails tidying up the combat. The combat can't be considered tidied up
until we know that nobody else is playing cards. Consider: A vampire
hits its opponent for 1 damage, but takes 2 damage. Vampire then plays
Form of Mist as an additional strike. Because the round is ending, the
opposing minion plays Pulled Fangs on our now-misty vampire; it goes into
torpor. Because it's in torpor, it can't continue with the bleed or
equip action or whatever, so the continuance of the action is aborted.
Cards such as Psyche were ruled to also abort the action, even if this
isn't obvious from the cards.
CurtAdams
>Whups. I'm thinking of the general discusions as to whether using
>retainers or equipment is optional, not a discussion specific to
>Ghoul Retainer. I still think it's better to change any rephrasing
>of Ghoul Retainer to eliminate the reading that it can choose to do
nothing.
What I'm saying here is that the reading from the card is clearly
optional, so making the ghoul's damage obligatory requires errata, because
the card text must be changed.
>>Well, English is fairly clear with some things. "Can use x" means there
>>is an option, to use x or not to use x. Making x a compound statement
>>changes this not at all. If you want to say that something must be
done,
>>you use "uses x" or "must use x". Again, whether x is compound makes no
>>difference. "Can use hands or weapon" is how you indicate an option to
do
>>nothing; "Uses hands or weapon" is how you indicate a use is obligatory,
>>but there is a choice on what is used.
>>Obviously after FoM is played, at some point the action become unblocked
>>(well, "as if unblocked"). Since there are no conditions (i.e. "becomes
>>unblocked if combat is successfully ended") this must happen at the
>>resolution of the S:CE...
>The ruling, which I agree with, is that successfully "continuing the
action"
>entails tidying up the combat. The combat can't be considered tidied up
>until we know that nobody else is playing cards. Consider: A vampire
>hits its opponent for 1 damage, but takes 2 damage. Vampire then plays
>Form of Mist as an additional strike. Because the round is ending, the
>opposing minion plays Pulled Fangs on our now-misty vampire; it goes into
>torpor. Because it's in torpor, it can't continue with the bleed or
>equip action or whatever, so the continuance of the action is aborted.
>Cards such as Psyche were ruled to also abort the action, even if this
>isn't obvious from the cards.
We're all in agreement on what happens if the acting vampire ends up in
torpor as a result of a Pysche-induced 2nd combat (the action terminates,
as it is no longer legal). The problem arises if after the Psyche combat
the acting minion is still functional. Again, you need errata (to card or
rules) to explain why the action doesn't continue (it's legal, unblocked,
etc.). This particular issue is a little more deserving of errata than
the Ghoul Retainer (it's a decidedly weird result), but, still, is no
major problem.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)