Rules Q: Change of Target & Hidden Lurker
Frederick Scott
If a vampire acts and is successfully blocked through normal means,
can its Methuselah first play Change of Target to cancel the action
and then Hidden Lurker to create a combat between another of his
vampires and the blocker?
Change of Target is played after an action is successfully blocked
before combat begins and "cancels the action and combat". Hidden Lurker
states that it can be played "after the action is blocked and combat
is over". The action was certainly blocked and it would happen after
the issue of combat was resolved but no combat had actually taken place.
I can see arguments against this being legal but nothing that strikes me
as a slam-dunk because one could think of a "canceled combat" as being a
combat that's now "over".
Anyone? (Of course, looking for LSJ's confirmation, too.)
Fred
Gomi no Sensei
If combat never happened, combat can't possibly be over.
You can't Hidden Lurker unless its condition (combat resulting from a
block) is met. This doesn't happen when Change of Target, Obedience,
Kiss of Ra, or Brujah Frenzy are played.
gomi
--
the direction of the eye
so misleading
the corruption of the soul
nauseously quick
Frederick Scott
>
> In article <3B19A3BC...@netcom.com>,
> Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
> >I can't seem to find the answer to this in the rules and rulings.
> >
> >If a vampire acts and is successfully blocked through normal means,
> >can its Methuselah first play Change of Target to cancel the action
> >and then Hidden Lurker to create a combat between another of his
> >vampires and the blocker?
> >
> >Change of Target is played after an action is successfully blocked
> >before combat begins and "cancels the action and combat". Hidden Lurker
> >states that it can be played "after the action is blocked and combat
> >is over". The action was certainly blocked and it would happen after
> >the issue of combat was resolved but no combat had actually taken place.
> >I can see arguments against this being legal but nothing that strikes me
> >as a slam-dunk because one could think of a "canceled combat" as being a
> >combat that's now "over".
>
> If combat never happened, combat can't possibly be over.
Well, yea, that's the argument against it I was already considering. It's
just kind of a semantic argument, IMO. What I was looking for was a reference
in the rules or rulings that state explicitly that "canceled combats" don't
count as combat for purposes of action mods and reactions that must take place
after a combat.
> You can't Hidden Lurker unless its condition (combat resulting from a
> block) is met. This doesn't happen when Change of Target, Obedience,
> Kiss of Ra, or Brujah Frenzy are played.
Playing Devil's advocate (I don't actually have that much of a stake in this
except to sort out what principals, if any, come into play here) I might suggest
that it isn't actually a condition that combat resulting from block occurred in
order to play Hidden Lurker. As I said, Hidden Lurker's text only states that
it is played "after the action is blocked and combat is over". I agree that that
seems to imply the action must have been blocked, but the "combat is over" part
might be taken to just mean that the timing of Hidden Lurker needs to take place
after the issue of combat has been disposed of, similar to Cat's Guidance and
Freak Drive at superior. It's not always clear which phrases and wording in card
text imply necessary conditions to play the card and which ones simply are intended
to delineate the timing of a card in fairly clear, simple terms. Unfortunately, I
couldn't find any kind of a guideline in the rules and rulings that address this
piece directly.
Fred
LSJ
> Gomi no Sensei wrote:
> > Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
> > >I can't seem to find the answer to this in the rules and rulings.
> > >
> > >If a vampire acts and is successfully blocked through normal means,
> > >can its Methuselah first play Change of Target to cancel the action
> > >and then Hidden Lurker to create a combat between another of his
> > >vampires and the blocker?
> Well, yea, that's the argument against it I was already considering. It's
> just kind of a semantic argument, IMO. What I was looking for was a reference
> in the rules or rulings that state explicitly that "canceled combats" don't
> count as combat for purposes of action mods and reactions that must take place
> after a combat.
OK: You have to enter combat before combat can be over. If combat is
canceled before being entered, then neither minion is considered to
have been in the canceled combat.
> > You can't Hidden Lurker unless its condition (combat resulting from a
> > block) is met. This doesn't happen when Change of Target, Obedience,
> > Kiss of Ra, or Brujah Frenzy are played.
>
> Playing Devil's advocate (I don't actually have that much of a stake in this
> except to sort out what principals, if any, come into play here) I might suggest
> that it isn't actually a condition that combat resulting from block occurred in
> order to play Hidden Lurker. As I said, Hidden Lurker's text only states that
> it is played "after the action is blocked and combat is over". I agree that that
> seems to imply the action must have been blocked, but the "combat is over" part
> might be taken to just mean that the timing of Hidden Lurker needs to take place
> after the issue of combat has been disposed of, similar to Cat's Guidance and
> Freak Drive at superior.
Fair enough. Except that Cats' Guidance puts the "after combat" part in parentheses
with the additional "if any" to drive the point home. Freak Drive doesn't mention
combat.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/