LSJ: Cards burned on ousting
mboh...@shout.net
This is an interesting thing that I came across, and I just wanted a
clarification. The Rules Outline, which I realise isn't as exact as the
rulebook, states:
NOTE: If your Prey is ousted at any time during anyone's turn, then you gain
a Victory Point, even if you are ousted at the same time. (10) [18.1]
You gain six pool unless you would be ousted without it during the same
action. (:10) All cards that a Methuselah controls and/or started with are
burned the moment she is ousted. (11) [9]
The main part I'm interested in is that last sentence. Are cards controlled
by an ousted Methuselah truly burned? If so, would effects generated by
burning be activated? Or would this be better termed "removed from the game"?
The card specifically effected is Political Struggle.
Political Struggle - Action - Clan: Lasombra
This is a +1 stealth action. (D) Put this card on a ready vampire. The acting
vampire may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a +1 stealth (D)
action. If the vampire with this card is burned or sent into torpor, the
acting vampire gains X votes, where X is the number of non-contested votes
the vampire with this card has; burn this card afterwards.
So if Democritus has a Political Struggle on him from Gratiano, would
Gratiano gain 3 votes when Democritus's controller is ousted? According to
strict reading of the Rules Outline, yes. Reading the rulebook, unknown.
I suppose one possibility is that the Political Struggle is simultaneously
burned with Democritus at the controller's ousting.
Mike
--
Mike Bohlmann, MAIP - Prince of Urbana-Champaign
http://www.shout.net/~mbohlman/
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LSJ
> This is an interesting thing that I came across, and I just wanted a
> clarification. The Rules Outline, which I realise isn't as exact as the
> rulebook, states:
>
> NOTE: If your Prey is ousted at any time during anyone's turn, then you gain
> a Victory Point, even if you are ousted at the same time. (10) [18.1]
> You gain six pool unless you would be ousted without it during the same
> action. (:10) All cards that a Methuselah controls and/or started with are
> burned the moment she is ousted. (11) [9]
You've got an old version of the outline. You may want to get an updated
copy (perhaps from the an up-to-date Rulemonger mirror :-).
Anyway, it doesn't change your question:
# NOTE: Cards that a Methuselah controls are burned when she is ousted. [1.3]
# Cards that she owns but that another Methuselah controls are returned
# to her when they are burned or when the game ends.
> The main part I'm interested in is that last sentence. Are cards controlled
> by an ousted Methuselah truly burned? If so, would effects generated by
> burning be activated? Or would this be better termed "removed from the game"?
Perhaps. But the revised rulebook is equally clear about the cards being
"burned" [1.3]. I believe that "burn" is the best way to go, given the
current usage in card text - see the discussion of Slaughtering the Herd
below.
> The card specifically effected is Political Struggle.
>
> Political Struggle - Action - Clan: Lasombra
> This is a +1 stealth action. (D) Put this card on a ready vampire. The acting
> vampire may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a +1 stealth (D)
> action. If the vampire with this card is burned or sent into torpor, the
> acting vampire gains X votes, where X is the number of non-contested votes
> the vampire with this card has; burn this card afterwards.
>
> So if Democritus has a Political Struggle on him from Gratiano, would
> Gratiano gain 3 votes when Democritus's controller is ousted? According to
> strict reading of the Rules Outline, yes. Reading the rulebook, unknown.
Reading the revised rulebook: yes.
A similar situation arises with Death Pact.
From a World of Darkness perpective, it makes sense for the Political
Struggle case, but less so for the Death Pact case (since the vampire
in question isn't actually killed).
> I suppose one possibility is that the Political Struggle is simultaneously
> burned with Democritus at the controller's ousting.
Yes, but that (simultaneous burning) would be true even if Democritus was
burned in combat. And in that case, Political Struggle should obviously
result in Gratiano gaining 3 votes.
--
Perhaps it would be better if both the rules *and* the cards distinguished
(properly) between "burning" and "leaving play".
For instance, Sensory Deprivation wisely says "as long as the acting
vampire remains in play" rather than "until the acting vampire is
burned".
But Slaughtering the Herd is burned only when the acting vampire is
sent to torpor or burned. If the acting vampire merely left play
when his controller was ousted (rather than being burned), then this
card would not be burned, and the victim vampire would continue to
lose one blood for each acting he attempts (the one blood being burned
when it is moved to a card no longer in play - cf. the ruling on
a Demented Malkavian returning to an ousted player).
I don't see any of these (Slaughtering the Herd, Political Struggle,
Death Pact) as causing any problems one way or the other, so it's
probably better to just keep things simple and say that the cards
are burned (in the usual sense) when the controller is ousted (which
matches the rules and allows card text to work somewhat sensibly for
the most part).
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html