[SPOILER] Kemintiri (Adv)
David Zopf
Follower of Set
10 Cap
OBF PRE SER THA aus dom
Advanced, Independent, Red List: +1 Stealth (Merged) Kemintiri has 3 votes
(titled). She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a
justicar title.
Illus: Lawrence Snelly (not a Photoshop piece, BTW. Go Larry!!)
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/images/CardKMW06kem.jpg
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Papipo
Rant deck :]
Smiling Tom
"Papipo" <pap...@gmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:1106584959.7...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I think that she will be chosen to command my brand new Free States
> Rant deck :]
>
Then add a ridiculous ammount of secure havens/sleep unseen/secret passage,
because being a red list = easy to rush vamp.
But it's nice. You can put in play basic, go anarch, and then merge to get
an Anarch pseudo-justicar.
Matthew T. Morgan
> I think that she will be chosen to command my brand new Free States
> Rant deck :]
That's all you want to do with the Setite "justicar?"
Call Protect Thine Own!
Have her name a few Archons and Alastors!
Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition:
Domain!
Call Corruption's Purge? Well, maybe not.
Judgment: Camarilla Segregation? Again, not the wisest choice.
Legacy of Power!
I think the winner is going to have to be Parity Shift.
Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule will make
her difficult or impossible to play.
Matt Morgan
nikita.s...@gmail.com
Oh! Finally Lawrence began to use brushes again
His photoshop portraits were really shi... ummm.. tasteless and
inappropriate ;)
And they look dated by now
BTW, only his art prevented me from playing Setites :)
Screaming Vermillian
It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's
honey. You're in for a bumpy ride.
Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a ten
cap with red list? Ouch...
Stefan Ferenci
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote:
> Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition:
> Domain!
>
you are almost as broken as josh ;-)
stefan
echia...@yahoo.com
That's 12 points not 11.5. 10 points worth of disciplines and +1
stealth is worth 2 points. I agree that non-merged Advanced is kinda
weak. Compare to Spider Killer who is also a 10-cap with 10 points of
disciplines and +1 stealth. Kemintiri Advanced however gets Red Listed.
So let's hope that there's a bright side to being Red List instead of
it just being a giant target on your forehead (and making you a munchy
target when you're in torpor).
But really, it's her Merged special that is outstanding. Watch out!
High Stakes here we come! ;)
The downside is that a Ventrue rush deck will make Merged Kemintiri a
very very sad panda. Hrothulf or Arika Assault Rifle will have a field
day. First rush her with the Red List ability, Freak Drive, and then
rush her with the drawback from her basic ability. :'(
Matthew T. Morgan
>
> Matthew T. Morgan wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote:
>
>> Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule will
> make
>> her difficult or impossible to play.
>
> It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's
> honey. You're in for a bumpy ride.
On the positive side, if you have some good defensive plan, it makes it
more likely that those won't be wasted slots.
Probably the best way to do it is bring up the base version, play Secure
Haven and then merge. As long as the Haven doesn't go away you should be
safe (barring an intercept/Amaranth deck, I guess).
> Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a ten
> cap with red list? Ouch...
I thought +1 stealth was a 2 point ability. Anyway, she's obviously
designed to be merged. The original Kemintiri is pretty crappy as well.
Matt Morgan
Emmit Svenson
using the advanced vamps we've seen before now, since you'll need fewer
copies of each version of her in your crypt. She or another of your FoS
can play Summon the Serpent to retrieve whichever version you're
missing. With an Info Highway in play, you can move the 1 blood from
StS to your pool and use it to pay to merge her in the same turn.
That's still a high cost in actions, transfers and blood, of course,
but it's better than fishing for half the game.
I'd suppose most decks that want to use merged Kementiri would use
several copies of her ADV version and just one of her base, since +1
stealth is so useful.
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a
ten
> cap with red list? Ouch...
+1 stealth on all actions is worth at least 2; compare her to
Spider-Killer or Cyscek. (I'd say Aristotle is undercosted.)
Personally, I'm drooling over a SER minion with +1 stealth. Too bad
that using Temptation to untap her frequently would leave her low on
blood and vulnerable to Red List rushes.
However, Red List might not be a net disadvantage for decks built
around Red List minions. What if there are powerful Red List only cards
not unlike the cards for Anarchs and Black Hand vampires? We'll have to
see the rest of the set before we can judge.
Emmit Svenson
Matthew T. Morgan wrote:
> That's all you want to do with the Setite "justicar?"
>
> Call Protect Thine Own!
Play Fall of the Camarilla, THEN call PTO in a Closed Session. No vamps
will be able to vote. Knock enough counters off Wormwood and nobody
will be safe.
John Flournoy
echia...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > Matthew T. Morgan wrote:
> > > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote:
> >
> > > Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule
> > > will make
> > > her difficult or impossible to play.
> >
> > It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's
> > honey. You're in for a bumpy ride.
See below.
> > Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a
> ten
> > cap with red list? Ouch...
>
> The downside is that a Ventrue rush deck will make Merged Kemintiri a
> very very sad panda. Hrothulf or Arika Assault Rifle will have a
field
> day. First rush her with the Red List ability, Freak Drive, and then
> rush her with the drawback from her basic ability. :'(
If ever there was a vampire to make great use out of Sleep Unseen,
Kemintiri's it. Without superior AUS, no basic-flaw rush, no Red List
rush, no nothing. Hrothulf or Arika Assualt Rifle will sit there unable
to do a stinkin thing, as will a whole lot of common combat decks.
You're going to have to rush her FAST, before she gets a chance to act.
(Though Tariq still gets to eat her like popcorn.)
-John Flournoy
sam...@gmail.com
Regards,
Patrick
Columbus, OH
LSJ
news:colav05do6vntu4br...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:53:29 -0600, "Matthew T. Morgan"
> >Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition:
> >Domain!
>
> there is no more Camarilla. How can she play cards that require a
> justicar title when there is no such thing as justicars anymore?
Card text. She can play cards that require a justicar.
Just because every justicar's title is inert while there is
no Camarilla doesn't mean that Second Tradition no longer
requires a justicar (or prince).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
shawn stanley
>On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote:
>
>> I think that she will be chosen to command my brand new Free States
>> Rant deck :]
>
>That's all you want to do with the Setite "justicar?"
>
>Call Protect Thine Own!
>
>Have her name a few Archons and Alastors!
>
>Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition:
>Domain!
hang on how can she do that? Once you play Fall of the Camarilla,
vol...@yahoo.com
get
>an Anarch pseudo-justicar.
Heck, you could manage that in a single master phase if you get a good
draw - Galaric's followed by Gift of Experience. Just don't forget to
go Anarch one way or another BEFORE you merge her. Otherwise you're
kind of stuck.
Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago
geo...@for.auth.gr
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote:
> Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule will
make
> her difficult or impossible to play.
and Screaming Vermillian responded:
It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's
honey. You're in for a bumpy ride.
Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a ten
cap with red list? Ouch...
Well, why not try to build a THA - SER - Anathema based deck ?
I believe that it will be very fun to play...
with PRE and Ventrue Headquarters, it shouldn't be difficult
to vote them.
Additionaly, use Temptations to tempt rushers and votes
George
echia...@yahoo.com
geor...@for.auth.gr wrote:
> Well, why not try to build a THA - SER - Anathema based deck ?
> I believe that it will be very fun to play...
>
> with PRE and Ventrue Headquarters, it shouldn't be difficult
> to vote them.
> Additionaly, use Temptations to tempt rushers and votes
>
>
> George
Read her special. It doesn't allow you (the Methusaleh) to play Ventrue
cards (compare to Tatiana's special). Thus you'll need an actual
Ventrue to play Ventrue Headquarters (Merged Kemintiri just won't do).
In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder
Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it.
Emmit Svenson
> In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder
> Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it.
geo...@for.auth.gr
Read her special. It doesn't allow you (the Methusaleh) to play Ventrue
cards (compare to Tatiana's special). Thus you'll need an actual
Ventrue to play Ventrue Headquarters (Merged Kemintiri just won't do).
In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder
Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it.
Yeah, you are right. At first when i read the special i noticed that
it was different than Tatiana's and it didn't allow you to play cards
that require Ventrue. But at the time i was writing my post i was
careless and wrongly mentioned Ventrue Headquarters.
so, no problem reading the special, it was just me the careless :)
George
David Zopf
<geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message
news:1106660343....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> echiang wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Read her special. It doesn't allow you (the Methusaleh) to play Ventrue
> cards (compare to Tatiana's special). Thus you'll need an actual
> Ventrue to play Ventrue Headquarters (Merged Kemintiri just won't do).
>
> In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder
> Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it.
>
>
> Yeah, you are right. At first when i read the special i noticed that
> it was different than Tatiana's and it didn't allow you to play cards
> that require Ventrue.
? Now I guess I'm not reading it right, because it looks like she can to
me:
This;
"She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a
justicar title."
is equal to this;
"She can play cards that require Camarilla. She can play cards that require
Ventrue. She can play cards that require a justicar title."
Which is different from Tatiana's special, but probably only for space
considerations. No?
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
David Zopf
"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:ygsJd.21758$by5...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
>
> No?
>
Heh.
Disregard. I got it. Not enough coffee yet. Sorry...
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Daneel
wrote:
But make sure you have the egde before you play Closed Session.
--
Bye,
Daneel
de...@hell.is
But make sure you have the egde before you play Closed Session.
does the vote provided by the political action count as being cast by
the acting vampire?
I don't think it does, but couldn't find any ruling.
obviously you still need to get the edge away from any disagreeable
methuselah :-)
press
of the card right now. equipment only usable by anarch, iirc, the
anarch plays one blood to cancel a d action against him) !!!! she´s
ten cap, so she can spare some blood to not risk getting rushed (S:CE
can get countered by several cards, as we all know well enough)....
jnew...@difsol.com
Body Bag burns two blood, but could work.
Smiling Tom
<jnew...@difsol.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:1106744927....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Not in the case of a marked red list
"Ok, I use a MPA to declare free hunt on Kemintiri"
vamp#1 rushes. You burn 2 blood to prevent, ok
Vamp#2rushes. You burn 2 blood, ok
vamp#3 rushes...
How long do you think you'll last until beaten to torpor????
I think the best way is combining secure haven, a generous amount of sleep
unseen, and free defensive cards (swallowed&staredown?). That or being a
combat monster, of course.
Smiling Tom
jnew...@difsol.com
>
> "Ok, I use a MPA to declare free hunt on Kemintiri"
> vamp#1 rushes. You burn 2 blood to prevent, ok
> Vamp#2rushes. You burn 2 blood, ok
> vamp#3 rushes...
>
> How long do you think you'll last until beaten to torpor????
>
> I think the best way is combining secure haven, a generous amount of
sleep
> unseen, and free defensive cards (swallowed&staredown?). That or
being a
> combat monster, of course.
>
> Smiling Tom
Magic of the Smith for a Hand of Conrad and stack on Typhonic Beasts
when anyone rushes you :) (and taste back the blood you spend - or have
a Path of Typhon to make them free - or both).
Also lets her play Iron Glare at both levels.
John
Smiling Tom
> being a
> > combat monster, of course.
> >
> > Smiling Tom
>
> Magic of the Smith for a Hand of Conrad and stack on Typhonic Beasts
> when anyone rushes you :) (and taste back the blood you spend - or have
> a Path of Typhon to make them free - or both).
> Also lets her play Iron Glare at both levels.
>
> John
>
Jeje. Then we can go round to that option: Rutor's Hand. Alastor+eye of
hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn
(alastor+Eye)
jnew...@difsol.com
of
> hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn
> (alastor+Eye)
Heh. Too bad she can't draw out the beast. I guess
Apportation/Swallowed by the Night can help her keep it close.
John
John Flournoy
Use the Summoning to get an Infernal Familiar, and you can play DotB
(as well as lots of other things.) If you really want to be absurdly
card-intensive.
> John
-John Flournoy
Emmit Svenson
Smiling Tom wrote:
> Alastor+eye of
> hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn
> (alastor+Eye)
Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan Impersonating,
Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted.
LSJ
Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar).
Joshua Duffin
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:35t2nsF...@individual.net...
> "Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106858990.4...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Smiling Tom wrote:
> > > Alastor+eye of
> > > hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn
> > > (alastor+Eye)
> >
> > Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan
Impersonating,
> > Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted.
>
> Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar).
Well, she can *call* it then, but she can't *be* an Alastor (named by
the vote card) while she's still "actually" an Independent vampire.
Unless you're counting that as part of "playing cards that require
Camarilla"?
Josh
kemin to ya
Colin McGuigan
> "Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1106858990.4...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Smiling Tom wrote:
>>
>>>Alastor+eye of
>>>hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn
>>>(alastor+Eye)
>>
>>Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan Impersonating,
>>Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted.
>
>
> Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar).
Mmmm? Is she actually treated as a Ventrue/Camarilla/Justicar while
using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a
vampire")?
Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself?
Tangentially, what happens if she calls a Praxis Seizure (successfully)?
Previously, I would've thought this would lead to her gaining the
title of Prince, losing her 3 votes, and then losing the Prince title
because she was of the wrong sect. But now I'm not sure...
--Colin McGuigan
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a
> vampire")?
>
> Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself?
>
Yes, the card will treat her as one for the duration of the referendum.
> Tangentially, what happens if she calls a Praxis Seizure (successfully)?
> Previously, I would've thought this would lead to her gaining the
> title of Prince, losing her 3 votes, and then losing the Prince title
> because she was of the wrong sect. But now I'm not sure...
>
You are correct, the Praxis is called, she gains the title, and then
ceases to be under an effect treating her as Camarilla, losing the title.
LSJ
>>Mmmm? Is she actually treated as a Ventrue/Camarilla/Justicar while
>>using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a
>>vampire")?
>>
>>Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself?
>>
> Yes, the card will treat her as one for the duration of the referendum.
Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as
a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion
as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the
referendum portion of playing a political action card is).
>>Tangentially, what happens if she calls a Praxis Seizure (successfully)?
>> Previously, I would've thought this would lead to her gaining the
>>title of Prince, losing her 3 votes, and then losing the Prince title
>>because she was of the wrong sect. But now I'm not sure...
>
> You are correct, the Praxis is called, she gains the title, and then
> ceases to be under an effect treating her as Camarilla, losing the title.
Her Prince title would replace the other title and would then go inert
until she changes sects to Camarilla, yes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Emmit Svenson
LSJ wrote:
> > Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan
Impersonating,
> > Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted.
>
> Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar).
So if she calls a vote such as Alastor that requires her to be
Camarilla or a justicar, she is considered Camarilla or a Justicar for
the purposes of naming the targets of the referendum?
If so, would she also be Independant (or Sabbat, if she had changed
sects) for the purpose of naming targets, or does she temporarily lose
her former sect?
Would she also be considered Camarilla or a Justicar for the purposes
of votes cast in the resulting referendum?
If she takes an action that requires Ventrue, does she stop being a
Follower of Set for the duration of the action?
If she is blocked when taking an action that requires Camarilla,
Justicar or Ventrue, is she Camarilla, a Justicar or Ventrue in the
resulting combat?
If she plays a reaction that requires Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue,
is she Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue for the duration of the action
and in any resulting combat?
Sorry about the barrage of questions, but since her wording is "may
play cards that require [X].", I have to determine if the function is
different if it's different from "may play cards that require [X] *as
if she were* [X].", which is Tatiyana's wording. Are they functionally
identical?
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
>
>>>Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan
>
> Impersonating,
>
>>>Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted.
>>
>>Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar).
>
>
> So if she calls a vote such as Alastor that requires her to be
> Camarilla or a justicar, she is considered Camarilla or a Justicar for
> the purposes of naming the targets of the referendum?
>
> If so, would she also be Independant (or Sabbat, if she had changed
> sects) for the purpose of naming targets, or does she temporarily lose
> her former sect?
You don't lose sect, you change sect.
If you're Camarilla, you're not Independent (a sub-set of non-Camarilla).
> Would she also be considered Camarilla or a Justicar for the purposes
> of votes cast in the resulting referendum?
No. But moot, since she has three votes.
> If she takes an action that requires Ventrue, does she stop being a
> Follower of Set for the duration of the action?
A vampire has only one clan.
She doesn't change clans, however.
It's just the card she plays that treats her otherwise.
See also "ally may play cards as a vampire" yet doesn't "turn into
a vampire" for the action.
This will be refered to as "Same" in subsequent answers.
> If she is blocked when taking an action that requires Camarilla,
> Justicar or Ventrue, is she Camarilla, a Justicar or Ventrue in the
> resulting combat?
Same.
> If she plays a reaction that requires Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue,
> is she Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue for the duration of the action
> and in any resulting combat?
Same.
> Sorry about the barrage of questions, but since her wording is "may
> play cards that require [X].", I have to determine if the function is
> different if it's different from "may play cards that require [X] *as
> if she were* [X].", which is Tatiyana's wording. Are they functionally
> identical?
Yes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Emmit Svenson
LSJ wrote:
> Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as
> a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion
> as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the
> referendum portion of playing a political action card is).
But Kementiri doesn't play "as"--or at least that clause does not
appear on her preview card. "She may play cards that require Camarilla,
Ventrue, or a Justicar title."
Assuming she plays a card "as" a Justicar, does she have a Justicar
title's votes in place of her own votes for the duration of the
referendum? For example, if she had become a Prince or a Liason, would
she still have 3 votes from the title?
Joshua Duffin
> Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:
> >>Mmmm? Is she actually treated as a Ventrue/Camarilla/Justicar while
> >>using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a
> >>vampire")?
> >>
> >>Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself?
> >>
> > Yes, the card will treat her as one for the duration of the referendum.
>
> Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as
> a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion
> as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the
> referendum portion of playing a political action card is).
I'm slightly surprised by this, because Kemintiri Advanced's card text
doesn't use the word "as". It says that "she can play cards that require
Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a justicar title" - not that she plays the cards
as if she *were* those things, just that she can play cards that have those
requirements. You're saying that's equivalent to the text on allies and
such specifying that they play cards "as a vampire of capacity X"? It might
have been more intuitive to use the same template, if so. :-)
Josh
kemintutu, the doubly evil justicar
Emmit Svenson
questions. I just want to make sure I understand:
LSJ wrote:
> Emmit Svenson wrote:
> > Would she also be considered Camarilla or a Justicar for the
purposes
> > of votes cast in the resulting referendum?
>
> No. But moot, since she has three votes.
So if she calls a Cam-only vote like Justicar Retribution and then
plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the resulting
referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla
vampire?
Emmit Svenson
> I'm slightly surprised by this, because Kemintiri Advanced's card
text
> have been more intuitive to use the same template...
My guess is that they ran out of room. That's a lot of copy on her.
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the resulting
> referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla
> vampire?
>
Correct. The card thinks she's Camarilla, the referendum does not.
LSJ
> such specifying that they play cards "as a vampire of capacity X"? It might
> have been more intuitive to use the same template, if so. :-)
If they had the same text space with which to work, you might be right. :-)
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
>
>>Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as
>>a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion
>>as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the
>>referendum portion of playing a political action card is).
>
>
> But Kementiri doesn't play "as"--or at least that clause does not
> appear on her preview card. "She may play cards that require Camarilla,
> Ventrue, or a Justicar title."
She does, otherwise she wouldn't meet the requirements.
> Assuming she plays a card "as" a Justicar, does she have a Justicar
> title's votes in place of her own votes for the duration of the
> referendum? For example, if she had become a Prince or a Liason, would
> she still have 3 votes from the title?
Still no.
LSJ
> So if she calls a Cam-only vote like Justicar Retribution and then
> plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the resulting
> referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla
> vampire?
She's a Justicar as far as the Closed Session is concerned, since
she played it as a Justicar.
Emmit Svenson
LSJ wrote:
> Emmit Svenson wrote:
> > So if she calls a Cam-only vote like Justicar Retribution and then
> > plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the
resulting
> > referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla
> > vampire?
>
> She's a Justicar as far as the Closed Session is concerned, since
> she played it as a Justicar.
But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is
concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?
LSJ
> But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is
> concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?
It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot
be the former save that you are the latter).
vol...@yahoo.com
>be the former save that you are the latter).
Hokay. So let me just make sure I understand this. What it sounds
like is that each card and its effects check what Kemintiri is *in
isolation* from other cards and effects.
So my merged, anarch Kemintiri could call a Free States Rant (or a
Parity Shift) and then make it a Closed Session, and then add a Rant on
top of that. Not that this particular combination would be very
useful, but she could do it, right? And she herself could burn a blood
under Rant, but no other Anarchs would actually get to vote because of
the Closed Session. Is that right?
Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago
LSJ
> Hokay. So let me just make sure I understand this. What it sounds
> like is that each card and its effects check what Kemintiri is *in
> isolation* from other cards and effects.
The ones she plays as something treat her as that something.
Everything else treats her (and everything else) as what they are.
> So my merged, anarch Kemintiri could call a Free States Rant (or a
> Parity Shift) and then make it a Closed Session, and then add a Rant on
> top of that. Not that this particular combination would be very
> useful, but she could do it, right? And she herself could burn a blood
> under Rant, but no other Anarchs would actually get to vote because of
> the Closed Session. Is that right?
Correct.
Joshua Duffin
> Emmit Svenson wrote:
> > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is
> > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?
>
> It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot
> be the former save that you are the latter).
This becomes rather mind-bending when she's playing Closed Session while
Fall of the Camarilla is in play. There are no Camarilla vampires, and
Camarilla vampires are considered Independent, yet she can vote because
Closed Session treats her as a Camarilla justicar... though as a Camarilla
justicar she would be Independent and not a justicar at all.
I think I do understand how you're saying this effect works, but it's still
kind of extraordinary, so for certainty's sake:
If merged Kemintiri plays Judgement: Camarilla Segregation (and is your only
"non-Camarilla" vampire in play), the J:CS will treat her as a Camarilla
justicar, and therefore you will not have to burn a pool during your untap
phase, correct?
If she calls the vote Ventrue Justicar, since the card itself treats her as
Ventrue justicar, she'll both get the extra vote in the referendum and can
be named as the new justicar, correct? (Though if she does become Ventrue
justicar, after the referendum her card text of "Independent" will make the
title inactive unless she becomes "really" Ventrue? Even though the card
she played to become Ventrue justicar treats her as Camarilla "forever"?)
What if she had a Writ of Acceptance and called the Ventrue Justicar vote to
become the Ventrue justicar? Will the title then become inactive after the
referendum because she's the wrong clan, even though the Ventrue Justicar
card continues to think she's Ventrue? How is this situation - where the
card thinks she's Ventrue and wants her to be justicar, but the game rules
can see that she's really not and can't be - different from her playing
Closed Session, where again, the card thinks she's a Camarilla Justicar and
wants to let her vote in the referendum, but the game rules "could" see that
she's really not and prohibit her from voting?
Somehow this is reminding me of "Vesuvan Doppelganger" rulings from Magic...
:-)
Josh
sunshine almost always blows my mind
LSJ
> This becomes rather mind-bending when she's playing Closed Session while
> Fall of the Camarilla is in play. There are no Camarilla vampires, and
True. And she is not one (except in regards to the cards she plays as
one).
> Camarilla vampires are considered Independent, yet she can vote because
True again. And since she is not one, she is not affected by the
"you are Indy" effect of FotC.
> Closed Session treats her as a Camarilla justicar... though as a Camarilla
> justicar she would be Independent and not a justicar at all.
If she were a Camarilla justicar, which she's not.
> I think I do understand how you're saying this effect works, but it's still
> kind of extraordinary, so for certainty's sake:
>
> If merged Kemintiri plays Judgement: Camarilla Segregation (and is your only
> "non-Camarilla" vampire in play), the J:CS will treat her as a Camarilla
> justicar, and therefore you will not have to burn a pool during your untap
> phase, correct?
No. The card in play doesn't remember how she played it.
See all the "ally as a vampire" rulings on cards in play.
> If she calls the vote Ventrue Justicar, since the card itself treats her as
> Ventrue justicar, she'll both get the extra vote in the referendum and can
> be named as the new justicar, correct? (Though if she does become Ventrue
> justicar, after the referendum her card text of "Independent" will make the
> title inactive unless she becomes "really" Ventrue? Even though the card
> she played to become Ventrue justicar treats her as Camarilla "forever"?)
As per the earlier cam-title-gainer, she loses her title (3 votes title)
when she gains a Camarilla title and then the Camarilla title goes inert
until she changes sects to Camarilla.
> What if she had a Writ of Acceptance and called the Ventrue Justicar vote to
> become the Ventrue justicar? Will the title then become inactive after the
> referendum because she's the wrong clan, even though the Ventrue Justicar
> card continues to think she's Ventrue? How is this situation - where the
It goes inert exactly because the Ventrue Justicar card doesn't continue
to think she's Ventrue. She has the title and it is inert because she
isn't Ventrue.
1) Ventrue Justicar is not in play, so it doesn't "think" anything.
2) If it were in play, it would still fall under the "in play" rulings.
> card thinks she's Ventrue and wants her to be justicar, but the game rules
> can see that she's really not and can't be - different from her playing
> Closed Session, where again, the card thinks she's a Camarilla Justicar and
> wants to let her vote in the referendum, but the game rules "could" see that
> she's really not and prohibit her from voting?
The effect of the card play vs. the card being in play.
> Somehow this is reminding me of "Vesuvan Doppelganger" rulings from Magic...
> :-)
If you like.
It reminds me of the "ally as a vampire" rulings from VTES. :-)
tzimisce_dragon
>> Emmit Svenson wrote:
> >
> >>Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as
> >>a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion
> >>as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the
> >>referendum portion of playing a political action card is).
> >
> >
> > But Kementiri doesn't play "as"--or at least that clause does not
> > appear on her preview card. "She may play cards that require Camarilla,
> > Ventrue, or a Justicar title."
>
> LSJ wrote
>
> She does, otherwise she wouldn't meet the requirements.
>
naturaly :)
>> Emmit Svenson wrote:
> > Assuming she plays a card "as" a Justicar, does she have a Justicar
> > title's votes in place of her own votes for the duration of the
> > referendum? For example, if she had become a Prince or a Liason, would
> > she still have 3 votes from the title?
>
> LSJ wrote
>
> Still no.
>
I have some questions that will help me understand EXACTLY how this works:
What happens if Keminti becomes e.g. a Sabbat Cardinal and calls an Anathema
?
I believe that the following things happen (correct me if i am wrong):
1. She plays it as a Cammy Justicar
2. During the referendum she is treated as a Sabbat Cardinal and
can vote, right ? (i mean the Cardinal title is not temporarily
suspended
during the referendum, just because she played Anathema as a Cammy, right ?)
3. If she plays a Closed Session, she can vote (as Closed Session thinks she
is a cammy), but she can't cast the 3 cardinal votes (as her sabbat title is
temporarily inactive for purposes of voting in the closed session, right ?),
though she can gain votes from e.g. Bewitching Oration and cast them as
she is regarded a Cammy vampire for purposes of voting under CS, right ?
4. if she plays a Closed Session and a Private Audience, what happens ????
i believe that she won't be able to cast votes at all, correct ? I
believe that
this happens, becasue when she tries to vote as a Cammy PA stops her and
the other way around... right ?
Finaly, her inherent 3 votes comes from a title, but this title is not
tied to
her independent status, correct ? So, she can vote if she plays a closed
session.
i mean, closed session thinks she is a Cammy, but she will still have access
to her
inherent 3 votes as a Cammy, too... correct ?
George
LSJ
>
> I have some questions that will help me understand EXACTLY how this works:
>
> What happens if Keminti becomes e.g. a Sabbat Cardinal and calls an Anathema
> ?
> I believe that the following things happen (correct me if i am wrong):
>
> 1. She plays it as a Cammy Justicar
Yes.
> 2. During the referendum she is treated as a Sabbat Cardinal and
> can vote, right ? (i mean the Cardinal title is not temporarily
> suspended
> during the referendum, just because she played Anathema as a Cammy, right ?)
Correct.
> 3. If she plays a Closed Session, she can vote (as Closed Session thinks she
> is a cammy), but she can't cast the 3 cardinal votes (as her sabbat title is
> temporarily inactive for purposes of voting in the closed session, right ?),
> though she can gain votes from e.g. Bewitching Oration and cast them as
> she is regarded a Cammy vampire for purposes of voting under CS, right ?
She can vote, so she can cast her three votes (plus any others she gains).
In fact, if she votes, she has to cast her three votes.
> 4. if she plays a Closed Session and a Private Audience, what happens ????
> i believe that she won't be able to cast votes at all, correct ? I
> believe that
> this happens, becasue when she tries to vote as a Cammy PA stops her and
> the other way around... right ?
Closed Session she plays allows her to vote.
Private Audience she plays allows her to vote.
Neither prohibit her from voting, so she can vote.
> Finaly, her inherent 3 votes comes from a title, but this title is not
> tied to
> her independent status, correct ? So, she can vote if she plays a closed
> session.
> i mean, closed session thinks she is a Cammy, but she will still have access
> to her
> inherent 3 votes as a Cammy, too... correct ?
Moot from above, but yes.
tzimisce_dragon
>> tzimisce_dragon wrote:
>>
>> If she becomes a Sabbat Cardinal...
>>
> > 3. If she plays a Closed Session, she can vote (as Closed Session thinks
she
> > is a cammy), but she can't cast the 3 cardinal votes (as her sabbat
title is
> > temporarily inactive for purposes of voting in the closed session, right
?),
> > though she can gain votes from e.g. Bewitching Oration and cast them as
> > she is regarded a Cammy vampire for purposes of voting under CS, right ?
>
>
> She can vote, so she can cast her three votes (plus any others she gains).
> In fact, if she votes, she has to cast her three votes.
>
She becomes a Cardinal, she loses her inherent 3votes title and instead gets
the Cardinal title that worths 3 votes. So, when she is trying to vote under
the
Closed Session (that she played) limitation (non camarilla cannot vote) she
is
considered Camarilla so naturaly (imo) she cannot cast her 3 Cardinal votes,
as
her Cardinal title is supressed by the fact that closed session regards her
as
Camarilla to let her vote. Thus she can only casts votes she gets from
modifiers,
that's how i used to believe that it works... But now,
If i read you correctly you mean that: Closed Session just checks if she can
vote, it
thinks that Kemintiri is camarilla and lets her vote, when she votes she
isn't considered
a Cammy and can cast her Cardinal votes freely, right ?
This means that Closed Session does not "filter" the votes, does not check
the origin
and stops the non-camarilla ones. It just checks who can vote... right ?
It is like a guy standing outside the doors of the referendum building, who
does not let
the non-Cammys get in, Kemintiri gets through tricking the bully and after
getting in the
building, she isn't checked again and can cast her votes freely :P
It seems that Camarilla security is not so good :P
(i am just trying to understand how it works, i believe that i got it)
>> tzimisce_dragon wrote:
>>
> > 4. if she plays a Closed Session and a Private Audience, what happens
????
> > i believe that she won't be able to cast votes at all, correct ? I
> > believe that
> > this happens, becasue when she tries to vote as a Cammy PA stops her and
> > the other way around... right ?
>
>"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
>
> Closed Session she plays allows her to vote.
> Private Audience she plays allows her to vote.
> Neither prohibit her from voting, so she can vote.
>
Yes, you are right on this, i should have though it, i understand now.
CS thinks she is Camarilla
PA knows that she is sabbat
so, none of these limit her, as they check seperately once. If they were
always "on" checking, then when she was trying to vote as Camarilla PA
would stop her and when she was trying to vote as a Sabbat, CS would
stop her. But it is like 2 guys standing outside... :P
They both let her get in.... :P stupid Sabbat and Camarilla security guys
:P
George
de...@hell.is
- go sabbat (into the fire)
- call cardinal benediction on herself (camarilla vamps can't vote)
- play closed session (non-sabbat vampires can't vote)
LSJ
> If i read you correctly you mean that: Closed Session just checks if she can
> vote, it
> thinks that Kemintiri is camarilla and lets her vote, when she votes she
> isn't considered
> a Cammy and can cast her Cardinal votes freely, right ?
>
> This means that Closed Session does not "filter" the votes, does not check
> the origin
> and stops the non-camarilla ones. It just checks who can vote... right ?
Right. Card text: "Non-Camarilla vampires cannot vote on the current referendum."
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
LSJ
Or use Into the Fire + Regent, since she's already a big target. :-)
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
de...@hell.is
> Or use Into the Fire + Regent, since she's already a big target. :-)
I did think about that... forgot that 'only' sabbat can rush the
regent...
*packs 2nd trad, obedience, secure havens, ...* ;-)
James Coupe
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>Joshua Duffin wrote:
>> I think I do understand how you're saying this effect works, but it's still
>> kind of extraordinary, so for certainty's sake:
>> If merged Kemintiri plays Judgement: Camarilla Segregation (and is
>>your only
>> "non-Camarilla" vampire in play), the J:CS will treat her as a Camarilla
>> justicar, and therefore you will not have to burn a pool during your untap
>> phase, correct?
>
>No. The card in play doesn't remember how she played it.
>
>See all the "ally as a vampire" rulings on cards in play.
Available here:
http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR512.txt
***
For allies that are able to play certain cards "as a vampire", they are
treated as vampires for all parts of the resolution of the play of the
appropriate cards. This includes the resolution of an action card and
the resolution of a strike card. It does not include any continuing
effects granted by the card (after its resolution) nor any effects given
by a card in play. This reverses a few previous rulings regarding the
resolution of, for example, Burst of Sunlight (will harm the ally
striking "as a vampire") and the ability of an ally to use Charming
Lobby to call a vote (allowed if the ally plays Charming Lobby "as a
vampire").
(REVERSAL)
***
i.e. when a card is being played and resolved, *that card* treats you as
being <foo>. No other card does. e.g. a Ghouled Street Thug playing
Undead Strength is treated as a vampire with Potence by that, but NOT by
the Burst of Sunlight my Tremere vampire plays.
Once in play, the card forgets everything about your "pretend" state.
The difficulty is in cards which resolve over a period of time e.g.
votes (where the referendum is large) or strikes (where play/resolve is
split).
If you think of this like a pseudo-vampire striking with a strike that
would care about such things, it all becomes much clearer.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
Daneel
> "tzimisce_dragon" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message
> news:ctdhqt$rvs$1...@nic.grnet.gr...
>> If i read you correctly you mean that: Closed Session just checks if
>> she can
>> vote, it
>> thinks that Kemintiri is camarilla and lets her vote, when she votes she
>> isn't considered
>> a Cammy and can cast her Cardinal votes freely, right ?
>>
>> This means that Closed Session does not "filter" the votes, does not
>> check
>> the origin
>> and stops the non-camarilla ones. It just checks who can vote... right ?
>
> Right. Card text: "Non-Camarilla vampires cannot vote on the current
> referendum."
Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to
play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a camarilla
vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated
independent of each other. Like, the issue with Tatiana - she can play
Summoning but she cannot use it with her special (can play cards requiring
Gangrel, etc.) to get Renegade Garou. Meaning, that the fact that she can
play cards that require Gangrel does not equal her meeting the
requirements to play cards that require Gangrel. This backward logic is
what I'd expect from Kemintiri too - the fact that she can play cards that
require Justicar does not equate her being a Justicar (or meeting any
requirements to being a Justicar).
--
Bye,
Daneel
LSJ
> Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to
> play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a camarilla
> vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated
Only the card the minion plays as a justicar considers him a justicar
(and therefore Camarilla). Playing the card doesn't make him a justicar
or Camarilla, and so other cards and effects do not consider him so -
they just consider him to be what he is.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
tzimisce_dragon
> Daneel wrote:
> > Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to
> > play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a
camarilla
> > vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated
>
> Only the card the minion plays as a justicar considers him a justicar
> (and therefore Camarilla). Playing the card doesn't make him a justicar
> or Camarilla, and so other cards and effects do not consider him so -
> they just consider him to be what he is.
>
>
exactly... also think this:
if she didn't play e.g. 2nd tradition Domain as a Justicar and thus a
Camarilla vampire, then she wouldn't be able to play it, as it requires
a justicar.
So, for what concerns the specific cards she plays a justicar, these cards
"think" she is a justicar and a camarilla vampire.
George
Daneel
> Daneel wrote:
>> Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to
>> play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a
>> camarilla
>> vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated
>
> Only the card the minion plays as a justicar considers him a justicar
> (and therefore Camarilla). Playing the card doesn't make him a justicar
> or Camarilla, and so other cards and effects do not consider him so -
> they just consider him to be what he is.
Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
comes to the terms themselves "Justicar" is a term in itself. Yeah,
you cannot *be* (nor become) a Justicar if you are not Camarilla,
but that dependency - from a purely logical POV - only concerns
Justicars, and not effects that duplicate Justicarhood.
The ruling that says that Kemintiri can vote in a Closed Session seems
to me to show a little leniency in not sticking to the terms, but
also exploring a bit the logical implications of the terms. (Even
though she plays the card as a Justicar, the card also considers her
to be Camarilla, since Justicars are normally Camarilla.) This same
leniency could, in the case of Tatiana, result in a more abstract
interpretation of her ability. Like, saying that since you need to
meet the clan requirements to play a card that requires a certain
clan, her being able to play a card that requires a certain clan
implies her meeting the requirements to play said card.
--
Bye,
Daneel
LSJ
> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
"Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire
with a justicar title".
Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire
with one [or two] levels of the Discipline."
tzimisce_dragon
"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
news:opslexkz...@news.chello.hu...
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:05:57 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
> comes to the terms themselves "Justicar" is a term in itself. Yeah,
> you cannot *be* (nor become) a Justicar if you are not Camarilla,
> but that dependency - from a purely logical POV - only concerns
> Justicars, and not effects that duplicate Justicarhood.
>
>
It is the same when an ally plays a card as a vampire.
When he/she does so, he/she is not considered a mortal
just for a moment, for purposes of playing the card,
because a vampire is not a mortal. Same way a Justicar
cannot be anything else but a Camarilla vampire.
Finaly, the answer to your question can become more simple...
Vtes is a game, and in fact it is a very complicated one,
that's partialy why we love it.
A bad side effect of this complication is [and not complicity
that i once wrote, thank you guys for pointing out my errors
and help me to learn the language better :)], that some cases
can be ruled in different ways, by different people. Meaning
that these cases are not completely crystal clear cases.
Additionaly, cards are made by people and card text expresses
the will of these people of how to play this game. These people
(i am not sure if it is just LSJ that makes the rules or if it is a whole
team)
put a lot of effort and time to give us rules that help the game to be
fair and balanced so we can have a maximized gaming experience.
In this particular occasion, LSJ has ruled that when a vampire plays a
minion card as a "Justicar, Prince, e.t.c.", he also plays the card as a
vampire belonging to the sect that the title is tied to. He could have ruled
otherwise and it would be also perfectly acceptable as it is his job to
make the rules for us to play this game.
But in my opinion this ruling of his is more "correct" than if he had ruled
the other way around.
note that i am not saying these things to be liked from LSJ or anyone else,
i am not saying these things because you don't know them, i am sure that
you and most of the people in this group allready know these things.
I am just saying these to explain my point of view when it comes to cases
that can be ruled differently, in some people opinions.
I, myself, have ranted (i am not saying that this is what you do, i know
that you
just want to understand how the rule works) about rules in previous threads
of
mine and got flamed by people (e.g. 2 lunatic erruptions case).
I don't pretend to be completely happy about every rule in the game (though
i am
happy with the 99% of them) we can't always agree on every rule and ruling,
we
can express our different opinions but the bottom line is that in the end we
have to
trust and respect LSJ rulings, because up to now (imo) he has given us no
reason not to.
(sorry for the long posting, i couldn't help it...)
The ruling that says that Kemintiri can vote in a Closed Session seems
> to me to show a little leniency in not sticking to the terms, but
> also exploring a bit the logical implications of the terms. (Even
> though she plays the card as a Justicar, the card also considers her
> to be Camarilla, since Justicars are normally Camarilla.) This same
> leniency could, in the case of Tatiana, result in a more abstract
> interpretation of her ability. Like, saying that since you need to
> meet the clan requirements to play a card that requires a certain
> clan, her being able to play a card that requires a certain clan
> implies her meeting the requirements to play said card.
>
> --
First of all, Justicars are ALWAYS camarilla, if they lose their camarilla
status, their title is supressed (e.g. Deranged justicar by a !malkavian).
About Tatiana's special, if i read you right, you mean that she should be
able to use Summoning to recruit Garous. I agree with you on this, i have
also supported this option in previous threads. I also used the same
"reasoning" as you are using to support this case (Tatiana being able to
"play" the card, normaly means that Tatiana meets the requirements of
the card). If LSJ wished it, he could have ruled according to what we
are saying. BUT also in this case, i believe that LSJ has ruled wisely
(even if that means that i and you are wrong).
I believe this, because Tatiana is able to PLAY the card and thus MEET
the requirements of the card, when actually is PLAYING the card.
So, when Tatiana is NOT PLAYING the card (e.g. the Garou) but
instead summons it, she does not meet the requirements as she is not
PLAYING the card at the moment and her special is not kicking in.
With a few words, her special is not active all the time, but is turned on
when she PLAYS the card. Thus when she is not PLAYING the card,
she doesnot meet the requirements, as her special is "off".
Ending this vast post, i'd like to note that if you (Dannel) like to confuse
the great Lothlorien Scott Johnson [i take it that Derek was kidding about
LSJ's parents naming him Lothlorien, though it would be fun to have such
a name, maybe cool actualy, if Tolkien's ancestors didn't sue you :)], you
can ask him the following:
Justicar title is ALWAYS tied to Camarilla sect and to a Clan.
No vampire can be a Justicar, without being Camarilla and member
of a Camarilla Clan. So, which Clan's Justicar is Kemintiri, when playing
Alastor ? Can she choose ? If yes, would she be able to play future
cards that might require e.g. a Brujah Justicar ?
George
anthony...@yahoo.com.au
> Kemintiri
> Follower of Set
> 10 Cap
> OBF PRE SER THA aus dom
> Advanced, Independent, Red List: +1 Stealth (Merged) Kemintiri has 3
votes
> (titled). She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or
a
> justicar title.
>
Looks good at first but on further analysis just doesn't seem good
enough to overcome the penalty of being Red-listed. The inherent
stealth just isn't actually all that useful. I have enough trouble
trying to find ways to use Marked Path in an Obf deck, let alone
permanent stealth. Could be more useful if she had extra actions (e.g,
Rutors Hand) but that just makes her even more of a target.
Merged Kemintiri also looks cool at first but making her a Ventrue
Justicar doesn't help all that much either. The main advantage is that
she can call Parity Shifts, and has three extra votes. Not all that
bad, but not all that useful if she has been torporised/burned. Also
problematic in that any cards that play that need a Justicar are pretty
much going to be dependent on having a merged Kemintiri since there's
no easy way to make another Setite a Prince or Justicar. So most of the
time they're just going to jam your hand while you're either waiting to
merge her, or she's just been trashed.
As far as defence against the Red Listing goes, the options seem to be:
Temporary, semi-permanent or permanent combat/damage avoidance.
Temporary effects are just that, temporary and will usually be
overwhelmed by the repeated rushes allowed by Red-listing.
Semi-permanent and permanent avoidance will usually tend to leave her
vulnerable for at least the first round (e.g., Secure Haven, Sleep
unseen) and are dependent upon having the right cards at exactly the
right time.
Temporary
Combat Ends (e.g. Majesty) - useless against Immortal Grapple,
expensive.
Maneuver cards (e.g., Swallowed by the Night)
Obedience
Semi-Permanent
Sleep Unseen - good for only 1 round, expense adds up.
Permanent
Maneuver equipment (IR goggles, guns)
Secure Haven
Anyway the bottom line is that your going to have to make some
reasonable investment to protect her. And what do you get for it? +1
stealth that you don't really need, and a Justicar (after Merging). Not
really a huge pay-off.
You could usually generate a better effect by having Muaziz become
Tremere Justicar. Bleed for the edge, have 2 other little Tremere in
play, play Tremere Justicar. Voila, 5 votes in favour. Gives you all
the benefits of Kemintiri with none of the drawbacks.
Just my two cents.
Anthony Barker.
Daneel
> Daneel wrote:
>> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
>
> "Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire
> with a justicar title".
And I thought Justicar titles were also clan-specific. I've never seen
a crypt card that is just a Justicar (without being tied to a specific
clan) just as I haven't seen a Justicar who was not Camarilla. So I'm
not sure why the distinction...
> Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire
> with one [or two] levels of the Discipline."
Yeah, but Allies have explicit text for this (can play the card as a
vampire). No obscurity there.
On the other hand, Kemintiri does not allow you to play cards as a
"Camarilla Vampire with a Justicar title", she only allows you to
play cards that require "Justicar". Meaning, that by default she
can't play any Justicar cards unless she joins the Camarilla? I
doubt so. What I'm guessing is that you understand her text to
read something like "...can play cards that require a Justicar
title as a camarilla vampire with a Justicar title...", which leads
us back to the issue of brevity, clarity and all the other related
stuff I frequently brag about. And there's a new isse on the
bragging list - how certain rulings seem to quote unintuitive
applications of rules or game terms when the intent of the ruling
seems to balance the game, when other rulings stick to the wording
of the rules (and create unintuitive effects).
Which kind of leads nowhere...
--
Bye,
Daneel
de...@hell.is
> What I'm guessing is that you understand her text to
> read something like "...can play cards that require a Justicar
> title as a camarilla vampire with a Justicar title...", which leads
card text:
'She can play cards that require _Camarilla_, Ventrue, and/or a
_justicar_ title.'
looks pretty clear to me.
LSJ
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:26:43 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
>> Daneel wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
>>
>>
>> "Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire
>> with a justicar title".
>
>
> And I thought Justicar titles were also clan-specific.
Exactly the point. One cannot be a justicar without being Camarilla,
as already noted. And therefore anything that requires a justicar
requires a Camarilla justicar.
>> Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire
>> with one [or two] levels of the Discipline."
>
> Yeah, but Allies have explicit text for this (can play the card as a
> vampire). No obscurity there.
No obscurity, correct. Just pointing out the parallel.
Note that the ally doesn't say "as a vampire with one Level of
Potence", either.
> On the other hand, Kemintiri does not allow you to play cards as a
> "Camarilla Vampire with a Justicar title", she only allows you to
> play cards that require "Justicar". Meaning, that by default she
> can't play any Justicar cards unless she joins the Camarilla? I
> doubt so.
The non-existing doubt has already been been addressed.
> What I'm guessing is that you understand her text to
> read something like "...can play cards that require a Justicar
> title as a camarilla vampire with a Justicar title...", which leads
> us back to the issue of brevity, clarity and all the other related
> stuff I frequently brag about. And there's a new isse on the
> bragging list - how certain rulings seem to quote unintuitive
> applications of rules or game terms when the intent of the ruling
> seems to balance the game, when other rulings stick to the wording
> of the rules (and create unintuitive effects).
>
> Which kind of leads nowhere...
Yes, vague handwaving gets nowhere.
Daneel
> Exactly the point. One cannot be a justicar without being Camarilla,
> as already noted. And therefore anything that requires a justicar
> requires a Camarilla justicar.
Also, it is not hard to see how it can be assumed that one cannot play
cards that require Gangrel without being Gangrel.
>> Meaning, that by default she can't play any Justicar cards unless
>> she joins the Camarilla? I doubt so.
>
> The non-existing doubt has already been been addressed.
That was a rhetorical question.
>> And there's a new isse on the bragging list - how certain rulings
>> seem to quote unintuitive applications of rules or game terms when
>> the intent of the ruling seems to balance the game, when other
>> rulings stick to the wording of the rules (and create unintuitive
>> effects).
>>
>> Which kind of leads nowhere...
>
> Yes, vague handwaving gets nowhere.
I believe that I have been quite more specific on numerous former
occasions (some of which occured in this very post or the ones directly
higher up in this very thread). The fact that I do not see the need in
this particular case rests more on the assumption of a mutual
understanding concerning the issue than on a lack of factual support
for being able to phrase in a more specific manner. I am also lacking
full conviction concerning the extent of commitment towards substantive
debate certain parties seem to exhibit. I will not, however, expand on
this point to prevent similar accusations concerning my person.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Emmit Svenson
anthony...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> David Zopf wrote:
> > Kemintiri
> > Follower of Set
> > 10 Cap
> > OBF PRE SER THA aus dom
> > Advanced, Independent, Red List: +1 Stealth (Merged) Kemintiri has
3
> > votes (titled). She can play cards that require Camarilla,
Ventrue,
> > and/or a justicar title.
>
> Looks good at first but on further analysis just doesn't seem good
> enough to overcome the penalty of being Red-listed.
Without seeing the rest of the set, we don't know how big of a
disadvantage being Red List is. There might be cards playable only by
Red List minions, similar to the Anarch-only and Black Hand-only cards
from those expansions. In that case, having someone play Red List on
your minions cross-table would pretty much such, but building a deck
around Red List minions would be less of a problem, since you'd get
the advantage of the Red List cards.
I agree that Kemintiri has big problem: she's a huge investment. 10
pool & transfers for her base or advanced, 11 pool and 14 transfers for
her merged. That's a lot to have on the chopping block. It might be a
good idea to bring out her base version and get a Secure Haven on it
before merging.
> The inherent stealth just isn't actually all that useful.
Here I disagree. +1 stealth is always useful. Serpentis has a number of
powerful 0-stealth actions, most notably Temptation. Calling votes at
+2 stealth before playing any cards has always been a big advantage for
Khay'tall, and it'll be big for Kemintiri too. Combined with the
Opium Den, the FoS now have really good permanent stealth options.
> Merged Kemintiri also looks cool at first but making her a Ventrue
> Justicar doesn't help all that much either. The main advantage is
that
> she can call Parity Shifts, and has three extra votes.
The three votes alone are a pretty good bonus for merging, making her
valuable rather than just a crypt-filler in Nefertiti/Khay'tall/Count
Ormonde Free State Rant decks.
> Also
> problematic in that any cards that play that need a Justicar are
pretty
> much going to be dependent on having a merged Kemintiri since there's
> no easy way to make another Setite a Prince or Justicar. So most of
the
> time they're just going to jam your hand while you're either waiting
to
> merge her, or she's just been trashed.
Well, sure, if you're counting on her to play those cards. But she
fits right in with a crypt of dom/obf/pre princes. Add one copy each of
Kemi base & adv to a crypt of Marcus, Queen Anne, Lucinde, Arika and
friends. Put a couple of Summon the Serpent in the library and a Secure
Haven or two. It's an easy power boost. She also mixes well with
Murat, Suhilah and maybe Madame Guil in an obf/ser princes deck (Form
of Corruption + Sabbat Threat, anyone?) and with Victorine Lafoucade,
Lucinde and maybe Gwendolyn in a dom/pre/tha princes deck.
> As far as defence against the Red Listing goes, the options seem to
be:
> Temporary, semi-permanent or permanent combat/damage avoidance.
> Temporary effects are just that, temporary and will usually be
> overwhelmed by the repeated rushes allowed by Red-listing.
Listing her costs a master phase, and each 0-stealth rush costs a
blood, so I don't think she'll be rushed all day long. With the
right set of combat defense rushes might be easier to deal with than
bleeds. I do agree that permanent effects will probably be more useful
than temporary ones, but in a tha deck she can play offensive combat,
which will discourage repeated rushes. Disguising/MotS'ing out guns
or the Ivory Bow will discourage casual rushers. The real disadvantage
is that dedicated rush decks that happen not to have a rush in hand can
still go after Kemi.
> Semi-permanent and permanent avoidance will usually tend to leave her
> vulnerable for at least the first round (e.g., Secure Haven, Sleep
> unseen) and are dependent upon having the right cards at exactly the
> right time.
Secure Haven only leaves a window of vulnerability if you bring her adv
form out first or merge her before putting the haven on.
> You could usually generate a better effect by having Muaziz become
> Tremere Justicar. Bleed for the edge, have 2 other little Tremere in
> play, play Tremere Justicar. Voila, 5 votes in favour. Gives you all
> the benefits of Kemintiri with none of the drawbacks.
Except the SER, the PRE, the OBF, Political Allies and Elder Kindred
Networks. On the other hand, Muaziz, Kemi and Rebecca of Munich might
work well together in a +1 stealth tha deck with votes.
> Just my two cents.
> Anthony Barker.
You're right that her Red List flaw has to be taken into account. But
I think in the relatively small number of decks that can afford a
10-cap, Kemintiri will shine.
Joshua Duffin
> > Right. Card text: "Non-Camarilla vampires cannot vote on the current
> > referendum."
>
> Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to
> play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a
camarilla
> vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated
> independent of each other. Like, the issue with Tatiana - she can
play
> Summoning but she cannot use it with her special (can play cards
requiring
> Gangrel, etc.) to get Renegade Garou. Meaning, that the fact that
she can
> play cards that require Gangrel does not equal her meeting the
> requirements to play cards that require Gangrel. This backward logic
is
> what I'd expect from Kemintiri too - the fact that she can play
cards that
> require Justicar does not equate her being a Justicar (or meeting
any
> requirements to being a Justicar).
LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a
justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed
Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had
thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the
referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply
its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a
justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is
obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed
Session. :-)
But when Tatiana Stepanova plays The Summoning, that is not a card that
requires a Gangrel or a Brujah - it's just a card that requires
Presence. Her ability only applies when she's playing a card that
requires a Gangrel or a Brujah, so it's not in effect while she plays
The Summoning, so The Summoning is not going to treat her as a Gangrel
or Brujah for its own resolution.
Make any more sense?
Josh
as a bear of very little brain
jnew...@difsol.com
> blood, so I don't think she'll be rushed all day long.
John
LSJ
> LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a
> justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed
> Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had
> thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the
> referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply
> its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a
> justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is
> obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed
> Session. :-)
Sorry. I was just thinking in terms of "as played" and "while in
play". I wasn't thinking about the extended duration effects, a topic
which had already been covered in the "as a vampire" suite.
Your intuition is correct.
Kem plays Closed Session as a Camarilla justicar, but no longer
qualifiers as either a justicar or a Camarilla during the
polling, so the Closed Session will exclude her.
(Reversal of previous ruling)
tzimisce_dragon
> "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:367aplF...@individual.net...
> > LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a
> > justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed
> > Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had
> > thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the
> > referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply
> > its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a
> > justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is
> > obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed
> > Session. :-)
>
> Sorry. I was just thinking in terms of "as played" and "while in
> play". I wasn't thinking about the extended duration effects, a topic
> which had already been covered in the "as a vampire" suite.
>
> Your intuition is correct.
>
> Kem plays Closed Session as a Camarilla justicar, but no longer
> qualifiers as either a justicar or a Camarilla during the
> polling, so the Closed Session will exclude her.
>
> (Reversal of previous ruling)
>
So, no more stupid Camarilla and Sabbat security measures...
Kemintiri no more able to trick the guards, sneak into the
Closed Session or the Private Audience and vote... :P
Good to hear this, as it kinda seemed a little silly to be able to
vote in a Closed Session and cast Cardinal votes... don't you think ?
George
tzimisce_dragon
<jnew...@difsol.com> wrote in message
news:1107195662.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Nitpick of the day - Red List rushes start at +1 stealth :P
(you forgot to include the "+", it's the "+" that makes the
whole difference... :P)
That means that Muaziz will start at 2 stealth and not at 1 :P
ADMIT IT, you WERE WRONG!!! :P
George
jnew...@difsol.com
John
> George
lionel.p...@gmail.com
> > LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a
> > justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed
> > Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had
> > thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the
> > referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply
> > its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a
> > justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is
> > obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed
> > Session. :-)
> Sorry. I was just thinking in terms of "as played" and "while in
> play". I wasn't thinking about the extended duration effects, a topic
> which had already been covered in the "as a vampire" suite.
> Your intuition is correct.
> Kem plays Closed Session as a Camarilla justicar, but no longer
> qualifiers as either a justicar or a Camarilla during the
> polling, so the Closed Session will exclude her.
> (Reversal of previous ruling)
RD confirmation here https://www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79988-keminitiri-closed-session#106540