Illusion vs Psyche! & TT
Kenneth
following maybe not so clear questions.
So just to get things straight:
Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred?
If so is does IotK fizzle or is the Illusion simply delayed?
If delayed would the Illusion work if the minion that played it was
burnt or placed in torpor?
It's probably only me but the card text on TT drives my brain into an
unsolvable puzzle mode.
What does "with no uncanceled press to continue" actually mean? Is this
just another way of saying, can not be you used to cycle cards?
-Kenneth
LSJ
>
> I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the
> following maybe not so clear questions.
> So just to get things straight:
> Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred?
No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other
combat-starters cannot be used.
> If so is does IotK fizzle or is the Illusion simply delayed?
Moot.
> If delayed would the Illusion work if the minion that played it was
> burnt or placed in torpor?
Moot.
> It's probably only me but the card text on TT drives my brain into an
> unsolvable puzzle mode.
> What does "with no uncanceled press to continue" actually mean? Is this
> just another way of saying, can not be you used to cycle cards?
If combat is continuing already, you cannot use TT.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
reyda
:: Kenneth wrote:
:::
::: I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers
::: to the following maybe not so clear questions.
::: So just to get things straight:
::: Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the
::: Kindred?
::
:: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat,
:: other combat-starters cannot be used.
Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent rulings, in a
bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours.
::: It's probably only me but the card text on TT drives my brain
::: into an unsolvable puzzle mode.
::: What does "with no uncanceled press to continue" actually mean?
::: Is this just another way of saying, can not be you used to cycle
::: cards?
::
:: If combat is continuing already, you cannot use TT.
You can play TT inferior to get a press though.
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> :: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat,
> :: other combat-starters cannot be used.
>
> Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent rulings, in a
> bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours.
Such vitriole. Tsk.
I answered the question incorrectly once.
Try to keep some perspective.
reyda
:: reyda wrote:
::: LSJ wrote:
::::: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a
::::: combat, other combat-starters cannot be used.
:::
::: Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent
::: rulings, in a bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours.
::
:: Such vitriole. Tsk.
:: I answered the question incorrectly once.
:: Try to keep some perspective.
mmm... you may be right, i'm getting on my nerves easily those days. Sorry
for that =/
perspective, that's right, perspective...
reyda
:: reyda wrote:
::: LSJ wrote:
::::: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a
::::: combat, other combat-starters cannot be used.
:::
::: Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent
::: rulings, in a bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours.
::
:: Such vitriole. Tsk.
:: I answered the question incorrectly once.
:: Try to keep some perspective.
mm just to be sure : there is actually no way to avoid an Illusion of the
Kindred Combat ?
LSJ
> mm just to be sure : there is actually no way to avoid an Illusion of the
> Kindred Combat ?
Besides Direct Intervention? I don't think so, no.
And you can "escape" the combat with Mariel, Lady Thunder or Elysium: The
Arboretum or yet another Illusions, of course.
Chris Berger
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3DE614DB...@white-wolf.com...
> Kenneth wrote:
> >
> > I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the
> > following maybe not so clear questions.
> > So just to get things straight:
> > Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred?
>
> No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other
> combat-starters cannot be used.
>
else can be interrupted when combat ends? If Illusions of the Kindred has
already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused
the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? In that
case, Psyche! could not be played after Rotschreck, because both minions are
not ready ("on the way to torpor" = not ready).
Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist
to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat
is queued?
Can Psyche! be played after a Blissful Agony?
The point is that when a card does multiple things, you have specifically said
that it's okay to interrupt in the middle of them. Thus they must happen
sequentially, and all card play is not atomic. So IotK has not yet queued
another combat at the time when it ends combat. Unless you consider the
imminent combat (the one which *will* be caused by IotK approximately 40 words
in the future) to be "queued", in which case, you have to consider that in the
above two cases as well.
Halcyan 2
>
>And you can "escape" the combat with Mariel, Lady Thunder or Elysium: The
>Arboretum or yet another Illusions, of course.
Watenda! Watenda!
Halcyan 2
Angus, the Unruled
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3DE614DB...@white-wolf.com...
> > Kenneth wrote:
> > >
> > > I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the
> > > following maybe not so clear questions.
> > > So just to get things straight:
> > > Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred?
> >
> > No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other
> > combat-starters cannot be used.
> >
> Umm... what about the ruling that cards that end combat and then do something
> else can be interrupted when combat ends? If Illusions of the Kindred has
> already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused
> the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? In that
> case, Psyche! could not be played after Rotschreck, because both minions are
> not ready ("on the way to torpor" = not ready).
AFAIK there is a difference being made for new combat in queue and
"other effects" in queue. You cannot start a new combat if there
already is one in queue due to another card, but you can start another
combat if there already is another "effect" in queue, which is then
cancelled (torporizing with Rötschreck)
>
> Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist
> to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat
> is queued?
You cannot play Form of Mist at superior to continue an action that
already was successful (and therefore you don't need the stealth for).
>
> Can Psyche! be played after a Blissful Agony?
>
No
> The point is that when a card does multiple things, you have specifically said
> that it's okay to interrupt in the middle of them. Thus they must happen
> sequentially, and all card play is not atomic. So IotK has not yet queued
> another combat at the time when it ends combat. Unless you consider the
> imminent combat (the one which *will* be caused by IotK approximately 40 words
> in the future) to be "queued", in which case, you have to consider that in the
> above two cases as well.
As i said. There is a difference being made for combats in queue and
"other effects" in queue.
Chris Berger
"Angus, the Unruled" <athosg...@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:690c2085.02112...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of
Mist
> > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another
combat
> > is queued?
>
> You cannot play Form of Mist at superior to continue an action that
> already was successful (and therefore you don't need the stealth for).
>
Snapcase
says...
> Umm... what about the ruling that cards that end combat and then do something
> else can be interrupted when combat ends? If Illusions of the Kindred has
> already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused
> the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? In that
> case, Psyche! could not be played after Rotschreck, because both minions are
> not ready ("on the way to torpor" = not ready).
Indeed, there seems to be no intuitive distinction between "post ending
combat effects" here. Why would a queued combat be any different than
Psyche preventing a Rotshrecked vampire from going to torpor? It would
seem more consistent/intuitive to have all post-combat effects be
prevented by Psyche/TT.
> Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist
> to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat
> is queued?
I'd say Psyche would be playable, since the Bum's Rush combat isn't
actually queued until after the Bum's Rush is successful.
--
-Snapcase
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3DE614DB...@white-wolf.com...
> > Kenneth wrote:
> > >
> > > I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the
> > > following maybe not so clear questions.
> > > So just to get things straight:
> > > Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred?
> >
> > No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other
> > combat-starters cannot be used.
> >
> Umm... what about the ruling that cards that end combat and then do something
> else can be interrupted when combat ends?
It's still in effect.
If Psyche! could be played at all, it would interrupt the IotK.
But since it cannot be played, it won't.
> If Illusions of the Kindred has
> already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused
> the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic?
No. It has queued a "go to torpor" event, though.
> Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist
> to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat
> is queued?
No. No other combat is yet queued. The action would have to be successful again
to begin combat. Psyche! can be played before that success.
> Can Psyche! be played after a Blissful Agony?
No.
> The point is that when a card does multiple things, you have specifically said
> that it's okay to interrupt in the middle of them.
And that if a combat is queued, it is not OK to try to start a new combat.
> Thus they must happen
> sequentially, and all card play is not atomic. So IotK has not yet queued
> another combat at the time when it ends combat.
It has.
> Unless you consider the
> imminent combat (the one which *will* be caused by IotK approximately 40 words
> in the future) to be "queued",
I do, since that's exactly what queued means.
>in which case, you have to consider that in the
> above two cases as well.
I do.
Chris Berger
> Chris Berger wrote:
> >
> > If Illusions of the Kindred has
> > already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has
caused
> > the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic?
>
> No. It has queued a "go to torpor" event, though.
>
to torpor? Just as an Undead Persistance will queue a "go to torpor" event?
> > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of
Mist
> > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another
combat
> > is queued?
>
> No. No other combat is yet queued. The action would have to be successful
again
> to begin combat. Psyche! can be played before that success.
>
So having a combat queued by an action card is somehow different from it being
queued by a combat card? In order for the Illusions of the Kindred combat to
be queued, one would have to successfully complete the resolution of the card
which could otherwise be interrupted by something like Psyche! (that is, if not
for the ruling to the contrary). To preserve the queued combat, you rule that
the rest of the card cannot be interrupted or cancelled. In that case, why not
rule that a Bum's Rush can't be blocked, because you will then have interrupted
a queued combat with another combat (the block combat)?
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3DECA86B...@white-wolf.com...
> > Chris Berger wrote:
> > >
> > > If Illusions of the Kindred has
> > > already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has
> caused
> > > the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic?
> >
> > No. It has queued a "go to torpor" event, though.
> >
> If a "go to torpor" event is queued, doesn't that mean that the minion is going
> to torpor? Just as an Undead Persistance will queue a "go to torpor" event?
No. [TOM 31-MAY-1996]
E.g., I have queued a trip to doctor's this morning (an appointment).
I am not currently on my way to the doctor however.
> > > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of
> Mist
> > > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another
> combat
> > > is queued?
> >
> > No. No other combat is yet queued. The action would have to be successful
> again
> > to begin combat. Psyche! can be played before that success.
> >
> So having a combat queued by an action card is somehow different from it being
> queued by a combat card?
No. Having a combat not yet queued is different than having one queued.
> In order for the Illusions of the Kindred combat to
> be queued, one would have to successfully complete the resolution of the card
> which could otherwise be interrupted by something like Psyche! (that is, if not
> for the ruling to the contrary).
Playing IotK queues combat.
> To preserve the queued combat, you rule that
> the rest of the card cannot be interrupted or cancelled. In that case, why not
> rule that a Bum's Rush can't be blocked, because you will then have interrupted
> a queued combat with another combat (the block combat)?
Combat isn't queued until the action is successful.
The effects of actions aren't applied when the action card is played.