Fame, daring and spirit
klav
I take control of a vampire with fame controlled by my prey with
spirit marionnete. I bleed then play daring the dawn to make the
action unblocable by vampires.
Can I give back the control of the vampire to my prey before sending
him to torpeur so that my prey loses the 3 pools from the fame effet
or do I send the vampire to torpor fist, take the 3 pools loss and
then give the control back ? Can I choose the timing ?
Thank you.
klav
LSJ
You choose.
Google: "spirit daring author:LSJ"
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Sten During
> klav wrote:
>
>> Hi all, here a question :
>>
>> I take control of a vampire with fame controlled by my prey with
>> spirit marionnete. I bleed then play daring the dawn to make the
>> action unblocable by vampires.
>>
>> Can I give back the control of the vampire to my prey before sending
>> him to torpeur so that my prey loses the 3 pools from the fame effet
>> or do I send the vampire to torpor fist, take the 3 pools loss and
>> then give the control back ? Can I choose the timing ?
>
>
> You choose.
> Google: "spirit daring author:LSJ"
>
>
Can he actually choose?
Daring the dawn says "after the ation is complete" and Spirit
Marionette says "until the end of the next action". It would
seem that the vampire is returned to his prey before it takes
the aggravated damage (making it impossible to, for example,
create the pooldifference needed to play Parity Shift as the
next action if he, by a margin of 1, had the most pool on the
table).
A somewhat similar situation ought to make it illegal to play
a Freak Drive with any spirited vampire as he no longer
controls it.
Sten During
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
Good point.
I was considering the "lose control" as an event to be ordered.
REVERSAL:
But it's not, as was established for Malkavian Dementia.
Instead, you have control until the end (as you note).
After the end, you don't have control.
Since the DtD damage occurs "after the end", it occurs
when you no longer have a choice.
Freak Drive, however, is played during the action, after the
resolution. Since it is still during the action, you still have
control.
Sten During
> Sten During wrote:
>
>> LSJ wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> Freak Drive, however, is played during the action, after the
> resolution. Since it is still during the action, you still have
> control.
>
Yup, saw that when I checked an extra time.
Sten During
LSJ
> REVERSAL:
>
> But it's not, as was established for Malkavian Dementia.
> Instead, you have control until the end (as you note).
> After the end, you don't have control.
>
> Since the DtD damage occurs "after the end", it occurs
> when you no longer have a choice.
>
> Freak Drive, however, is played during the action, after the
> resolution. Since it is still during the action, you still have
> control.
Sorry for the whiplash, but a very observant Stone has pointed
out that there's also a ruling that says the damage done is done
after resolution but still during the action (it isn't relegated
to the "between action" timing area).
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BE5446A.46D87B60%40white-wolf.com
The torporizing effect of Day Operation as well as the damaging
effects of Force of Will and Daring the Dawn occur during the
action, after resolution, before the action ends.
Freak Drive can be played before or after any of those effects,
since it occupies the same timing window.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9hpqcd%2438m%241%40taliesin.netcom.net.uk
Note that playing Freak Drive after would not be possible if the
effect waited until after the end of the action to occur.
REVERSAL (not quite a RE-REVERSAL, though, so read carefully):
So, you still don't have a choice when it comes to Spirit Marionette
and Daring the Dawn (or Force of Will), but the forced "option" I
indicated above is the wrong one - the damage occurs while you
still have control of the Marionette'ed vampire, before he goes back
home to his regular controller.
Joshua Duffin
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E53DEE3...@white-wolf.com...
> LSJ wrote:
> > REVERSAL:
> >
> > But it's not, as was established for Malkavian Dementia.
> > Instead, you have control until the end (as you note).
> > After the end, you don't have control.
> >
> > Since the DtD damage occurs "after the end", it occurs
> > when you no longer have a choice.
> >
> > Freak Drive, however, is played during the action, after the
> > resolution. Since it is still during the action, you still have
> > control.
>
> Sorry for the whiplash, but a very observant Stone has pointed
> out that there's also a ruling that says the damage done is done
> after resolution but still during the action (it isn't relegated
> to the "between action" timing area).
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BE5446A.46D87B60%40white-wolf.com
>
> The torporizing effect of Day Operation as well as the damaging
> effects of Force of Will and Daring the Dawn occur during the
> action, after resolution, before the action ends.
These cards aren't all written the same.
Force of Will (which the above ruling is on): "Damage occurs after
the action or combat is resolved."
Day Operation: "The acting vampire goes to torpor when the action
is resolved."
Daring the Dawn: "This vampire takes 2 aggravated damage (not
preventable) after the action is complete."
Spirit Marionette: "Take control of any ready untapped minion
until the end of the next action."
Now, I'm just thinking in English here, but "after the action is
complete" sounds to me like it would come after "the end of the
next action".
Since things aren't complete until they're over (Daring the Dawn
doesn't say "when the action is resolved" which we know happens
somewhat before an action is declared "over"), I still think it
would make sense for DtD to apply its damage after control from
Spirit Marionette ends.
> Freak Drive can be played before or after any of those effects,
> since it occupies the same timing window.
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9hpqcd%2438m%241%40taliesin.netcom.net.uk
>
> Note that playing Freak Drive after would not be possible if the
> effect waited until after the end of the action to occur.
You can certainly play Freak Drive after applying the torporizing
effects of Force of Will or Day Operation, based on prior precedent,
but I don't think you should be able to after going to torpor for
Daring the Dawn. I would argue that the citation above just didn't
take into account that Daring the Dawn wouldn't have put you in
torpor yet by the time you would play Freak Drive, and is therefore
basically irrelevant to the question (unlike Force of Will and
combat, the other two examples).
These cards could be "cleaned up" by making their wording all fit
the same template, but currently they are using different phrasing.
Josh
no, it's really not just that my ox is being gored, i didn't
particularly intend to ever play that deck again...
LSJ
> These cards aren't all written the same.
>
> Force of Will (which the above ruling is on): "Damage occurs after
> the action or combat is resolved."
>
> Day Operation: "The acting vampire goes to torpor when the action
> is resolved."
>
> Daring the Dawn: "This vampire takes 2 aggravated damage (not
> preventable) after the action is complete."
>
> Spirit Marionette: "Take control of any ready untapped minion
> until the end of the next action."
>
> Now, I'm just thinking in English here, but "after the action is
> complete" sounds to me like it would come after "the end of the
> next action".
Be that as it may.
However, at least for consistency if nothing else, "after the action
is complete" is not read as "after the end of the action", but is
instead read as "after the action is resolved".
Sten During
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
>
>> These cards aren't all written the same.
>>
>> Force of Will (which the above ruling is on): "Damage occurs after
>> the action or combat is resolved."
>>
>> Day Operation: "The acting vampire goes to torpor when the action
>> is resolved."
>>
>> Daring the Dawn: "This vampire takes 2 aggravated damage (not
>> preventable) after the action is complete."
>>
>> Spirit Marionette: "Take control of any ready untapped minion
>> until the end of the next action."
>>
>> Now, I'm just thinking in English here, but "after the action is
>> complete" sounds to me like it would come after "the end of the
>> next action".
>
>
> Be that as it may.
> However, at least for consistency if nothing else, "after the action
> is complete" is not read as "after the end of the action", but is
> instead read as "after the action is resolved".
>
Any hope for an actual rewording of DtD (as in errata)? Explaining
that in this specific case "consistency" will have a card being
read in a way that is contrary to the semantics of the wording
while in other cases semantics overrule "consistency".
By this I actually mean that what constitutes "consistency" may
vary wildly from player to player and that it's preferable that
either an errata is issued or that semantics sets the rule even
in those cases where such a ruling creates an "obvious inconsistency",
where I'm well aware that "obvious inconsistency" may not at all
be "obvious" to all players.
Sten During
reyda
> LSJ wrote:
>> REVERSAL:
> Sorry for the whiplash, but a very observant Stone has pointed
> out that there's also a ruling that says the damage done is done
> after resolution but still during the action
So people should write you in private since it is the best way to make you
change your mind ?
LSJ
> Any hope for an actual rewording of DtD (as in errata)? Explaining
> that in this specific case "consistency" will have a card being
> read in a way that is contrary to the semantics of the wording
> while in other cases semantics overrule "consistency".
No need to resort to errata.
The current card text is sufficient to allow for such an interpretation.
LSJ
> So people should write you in private since it is the best way to make you
> change your mind ?
?
No.
If that was more than just a troll, please elaborate.
vermillian
> REVERSAL (not quite a RE-REVERSAL, though, so read carefully):
>
> So, you still don't have a choice when it comes to Spirit Marionette
> and Daring the Dawn (or Force of Will), but the forced "option" I
> indicated above is the wrong one - the damage occurs while you
> still have control of the Marionette'ed vampire, before he goes back
> home to his regular controller.
Oh... so... Fame Spirit DtD isn't quite so good now, is what you're
saying, yes? That is, you'll eat the 3 pool.
~SV
LSJ
Correct.