Challenge: Get Beast into the Camarilla
Mikael Hallin
a pander(with unacceptable appearance) however then
he's still a sabbat vampire, another clanchange but
without leaving sabbat is deranging him. The only
concievable solution to this challange that I can
think off is far fetched and even I doubt its
legality, I think we need a ruling from LSJ for this.
;)
Possible but doubtable solution:
Put seeds of corruption on him(The vampire with this
card cannot use his or her special abilities.) but I
doubt that his drawback(Beast cannot perform
action-card actions or recruit allies. He cannot have
or use equipment or retainers.) is considered an
ability, but if it is, you put the seeds on him and
then clan impersonate him.
IF this is possible, then it's still extremely silly,
but I can see no other possible way to make him change sect.
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Halcyan 2
>a pander(with unacceptable appearance) however then
>he's still a sabbat vampire, another clanchange but
>without leaving sabbat is deranging him. The only
>concievable solution to this challange that I can
>think off is far fetched and even I doubt its
>legality, I think we need a ruling from LSJ for this.
>;)
In addition to making him a Pander, you can also make him a !Malk by using
Derange. But you're still stuck as Sabbat.
>Possible but doubtable solution:
>Put seeds of corruption on him(The vampire with this
>card cannot use his or her special abilities.) but I
>doubt that his drawback(Beast cannot perform
>action-card actions or recruit allies. He cannot have
>or use equipment or retainers.) is considered an
>ability, but if it is, you put the seeds on him and
>then clan impersonate him.
You are correct (it is not possible). Seeds of Corruption does not remove any
restrictions (i.e. diablerie for Assamites). Thus Beast with a Seeds still
cannot take action cards, etc. In addition now he can't use his rush ability
either.
Halcyan 2
Jozxyqk
Still no way to get him to fly Camarilla colors, but..
Reading through cardlists, I've noticed "[and does not count
as equipment while in play]" appended to the descriptions of
those equipment cards that become locations.
It seems that if you follow Beast's text verbatim, he can
actually use these.
Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card"
action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still
doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal.
LSJ, am I right?
James Coupe
> Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card"
> action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still
> doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal.
It's an action, so no. Beast, similarly, can't take an action to burn
a Haven Uncovered, even if it doesn't have the little icon on it.
However, you could move them to him, if moved in an ambiguous manner.
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Jozxyqk
>> Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card"
>> action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still
>> doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal.
> It's an action, so no. Beast, similarly, can't take an action to burn
> a Haven Uncovered, even if it doesn't have the little icon on it.
I'm afraid you're wrong.
Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit [Sabbat, SW]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nosferatu antitribu
Capacity: 7
Discipline: OBF POT ani cel
Sabbat: Beast cannot perform action-card actions or recruit allies.
He cannot have or use equipment or retainers. As a (D) action, Beast
may enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah.
+1 strength.
His text doesn't say anything about barring him from actions in general;
he's only specifically banned from "Action-Card" actions, and "Recruit
Ally" actions. I'd even read the text to say that he's allowed to Recruit
Retainers and Equip Equipment, but they are immediately burned, as he is not
"having or using" them until the action is successful.
But it seems like burning an uncovered Haven, etc, is perfectly fine.
My question concerned performing an Equip action (theoretically legal) to
get a Location. Once it is a location, it's not Equipment, and therefore
there's nothing specifically stopping him from using it.
Noal McDonald
Yep. However, the only way that I'm aware of to transfer a "locquipment"
from one of your minions to another one of your minions is to play
Disputed Territory to move the "locquipment" to another player's control
and then play another Disputed Territory to take control back, allowing
you to chose the minion to receive it.
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
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LSJ
> I think I have found a "loophole" about Beast, sort of.
> Still no way to get him to fly Camarilla colors, but..
>
> Reading through cardlists, I've noticed "[and does not count
> as equipment while in play]" appended to the descriptions of
> those equipment cards that become locations.
>
> It seems that if you follow Beast's text verbatim, he can
> actually use these.
If he can get them, yes.
> Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card"
> action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still
> doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal.
Nah. You have to get it in play first. Beast cannot attempt to
get it into play since he cannot have it (the equipment card).
A bit (a lot?) spurios, maybe, but it matches the original intent:
"Beast cannot equip".
--
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Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
James Coupe
> His text doesn't say anything about barring him from actions in general;
> he's only specifically banned from "Action-Card" actions, and "Recruit
> Ally" actions.
Hmm... is this the text as printed in SW? (I assume it is.)
I don't think I've seen one, which explains my problem.
> I'd even read the text to say that he's allowed to Recruit
> Retainers and Equip Equipment,
They are actions, on cards, however.
> My question concerned performing an Equip action (theoretically legal) to
> get a Location. Once it is a location, it's not Equipment, and therefore
> there's nothing specifically stopping him from using it.
Certainly. As I say, an ambiguous move of a location from one vampire
to another would also suffice.
LSJ
> Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes:
>
> > Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card"
> > action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still
> > doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal.
>
> It's an action, so no. Beast, similarly, can't take an action to burn
> a Haven Uncovered, even if it doesn't have the little icon on it.
An equipment card could be an action card, depending on how you
want to look at it (normal reading of the rules would indicate
otherwise, as would [RTR 4/18/95]: "equipment cards are not
action cards"), but regardless of how you feel about that issue,
Beast could take an action to burn Haven Uncovered (or Army of
Rats, whatever) - those are not action-card actions under any
definition.
> However, you could move them to him, if moved in an ambiguous manner.
Correct.
--
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Jozxyqk
>> action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still
>> doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal.
> Nah. You have to get it in play first. Beast cannot attempt to
> get it into play since he cannot have it (the equipment card).
> A bit (a lot?) spurios, maybe, but it matches the original intent:
> "Beast cannot equip".
Oh well :P
I tried :)
Suggested Errata:
"Beast cannot perform Recruit or Equip actions, and cannot use Action Cards.
He may not gain control of any Location, Retainer, or Equipment."
He _can_ still perform actions like burning a Haven Uncovered, though,
correct?
And he can also still use Action Modifiers, Reaction Cards, and Combat
Cards, right?
Can he use Political Action cards? (I assume no, although he can gain votes).
*grumble* I still want to find a way to get him to join the Camarilla ;)
Reyda
Loquipments like "Palatial estate", no ?
reyda
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message news:
961lcc$kiq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
LSJ
> He _can_ still perform actions like burning a Haven Uncovered, though,
> correct?
Yes. See elsewhere in this thread.
> And he can also still use Action Modifiers, Reaction Cards, and Combat
> Cards, right?
Sure.
> Can he use Political Action cards? (I assume no, although he can gain
> votes).
No. He can gain votes, sure.
--
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Gomi no Sensei
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Yep. However, the only way that I'm aware of to transfer a "locquipment"
>from one of your minions to another one of your minions is to play
>Disputed Territory to move the "locquipment" to another player's control
>and then play another Disputed Territory to take control back, allowing
>you to chose the minion to receive it.
Succubus Club would also work, and lets you sweeten the pot by
offering payment -- "I'll give you a pool and this here Palatial Estate,
and you give me the Palatial Estate back."
gomi
been thinking about Succubus Club a lot lately
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Pat Ricochet
> In article <961l7i$kgp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> Yep. However, the only way that I'm aware of to transfer a "locquipment"
>> from one of your minions to another one of your minions is to play
>> Disputed Territory to move the "locquipment" to another player's control
>> and then play another Disputed Territory to take control back, allowing
>> you to chose the minion to receive it.
>
> Succubus Club would also work, and lets you sweeten the pot by
> offering payment -- "I'll give you a pool and this here Palatial Estate,
> and you give me the Palatial Estate back."
My personal favorite (not my idea, and not the first to see it, I'm
sure,) is ordering your untap phase to borrow a Hunting ground, gain the one
blood, and then give it back. (for whatever favor you can get, including
both a plea for help and "I'll kill your Prince if you don't let me.)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
Halcyan 2
>Loquipments like "Palatial estate", no ?
Actually no.
Actions
Any action which retrieves an equipment card and says to 'equip' the acting
minion with that card is considered an 'equip action'. [TOM 19960130]
Vast Wealth - Master
Grants the ability to take an action, namely: to search through the Library for
an equipment card. [TOM 19950119]
This action is considered an "equip" action. [RTR] [RTR 19960124]
So since using Vast Wealth is considered equipping, Beast can't do it.
I know it's quite surprising. For the longest time I thought Vast Wealth and
Magic of the Smith weren't technically considered "equip" actions (mainly for
purposes of NRA). But one day, after looking through the rulebook, I guess they
are...
Hey, at the very least, Idalia and Joaquina just got slightly more useful b/c
of their specials...
On a sidenote, exactly what is considered to be "retrieving?"
#1. Darius Styx's special doesn't have the word "equip" in it, but it could be
tacitly implied. Does it count as equipping if he ends up getting an equipment
card? If so, what happens if he ends up with some other card?
#2. Just to doublecheck, stealing equipment is not considered to be equipping,
right? So using Kostantin's special is not equipping?
Thanks!
Halcyan 2
LSJ
> On a sidenote, exactly what is considered to be "retrieving?"
>
> #1. Darius Styx's special doesn't have the word "equip" in it, but it
> could be tacitly implied. Does it count as equipping if he ends up
> getting an equipment card? If so, what happens if he ends up with some
> other card?
No.
> #2. Just to doublecheck, stealing equipment is not considered to be
> equipping, right? So using Kostantin's special is not equipping?
Correct.
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KingJohann
Celerity, stole a writ of acceptance with fast hands?
Would this get the job done?
DF
Hardy Range
news:20010210000511...@ng-ma1.aol.com...
Sorry, no... Beast's card text prohibits that.
Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit [Sabbat, SW]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nosferatu antitribu
Capacity: 7
Discipline: OBF POT ani cel
Sabbat: Beast cannot perform action-card actions or recruit allies. He
cannot have or use equipment or retainers. As a (D) action, Beast may enter
combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah. +1 strength.
--
Hardy Range
KingJohann
wouldn't work... brain fart.
Oh well it happens
DF
Jozxyqk
No. He can not have or use equipment.
Hmmm...
But can Beast use "Steal Equipment" strikes as "Destroy Equipment"
strikes? (Steal, then be an invalid owner, then it burns) Or can
he just not use this type of strike?
gray...@my-deja.com
I would expect that he could not play Fast Hands ( or whatever ) as it
is not a valid target ( because he cannot have equipment )
LSJ
> Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:
> > KingJohann <kingj...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Regarding getting Beast into the Camarilla,
> >
> >
> > Hmmm...
> > But can Beast use "Steal Equipment" strikes as "Destroy Equipment"
> > strikes? (Steal, then be an invalid owner, then it burns) Or can
> > he just not use this type of strike?
>
> I would expect that he could not play Fast Hands ( or whatever ) as it
> is not a valid target ( because he cannot have equipment )
Correct. Similarly, Lucian with a Sport Bike cannot attempt to
steal his opponent's Hawg.
--
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Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
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davey!
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Pat Ricochet wrote:
> My personal favorite (not my idea, and not the first to see it,
> I'm sure,) is ordering your untap phase to borrow a Hunting ground,
> gain the one blood, and then give it back. (for whatever favor you
> can get, including both a plea for help and "I'll kill your Prince if
> you don't let me.)
Could one do this multiple times with the same HG to gain a blood for each
of your vampiers?
Pat Ricochet
Well, it's a case for the ruling:
'During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once per phase X. [LSJ 19970625]'
And since it's the same Hunting Ground, it seems you couldn't do that
any more than you could get all the blood you wanted from a Hunting Ground
you actually owned.
LSJ
No.
The HG uses the "During X, do Y" template.
--
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Mochuda
the camarilla.
quite stupid i agree but it works i think
Jozxyqk
No.. as mentioned earlier in the thread, penalties are not removed by
Seeds of Corruption.
If you corrupted him, he'd still not be able to perform most actions,
and wouldn't be able to attack either.