LSJ: Burn option question

Joshua Duffin

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Apr 13, 2004, 12:31:01 PM4/13/04

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hi Scott,

Can you use the burn option if you don't control a *ready* vampire of
the appropriate characteristic, or only if you don't control such a
vampire at all?

In a previous newsgroup post, you seem to have agreed to the former (ie
that if your only Daughter of Cacophony is in torpor, you could
burn-option a Paris Opera House from hand):

www.google.com/groups?selm=3FBB92BB.9060208%40white-wolf.com

But since this topic wasn't the thrust of the question, I'm not sure if
you intended to agree to that. The rulebook (BH 1.6.1.3) seems a little
ambiguous: "Some cards that have a requirement also have a burn option
icon. This icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion
that meets the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's
untap phase."

For master cards, the minion in a sense doesn't meet the requirements
while in torpor, but on the other hand, in a sense he *does* meet the
requirements of the *card*, he just doesn't grant the Methuselah the
ability to play the card while in torpor.

thanks,

Josh

no new options to burn

LSJ

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Apr 13, 2004, 5:29:22 PM4/13/04

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Joshua Duffin wrote:
> hi Scott,
>
> Can you use the burn option if you don't control a *ready* vampire of
> the appropriate characteristic, or only if you don't control such a
> vampire at all?

Depends on what the card requires.
If is requires a ready, then the absence of a ready is sufficient.
If it requires a controlled (ready or torpor), then one in torpor
will prevent the burn option.

http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec1_6_1

> In a previous newsgroup post, you seem to have agreed to the former (ie
> that if your only Daughter of Cacophony is in torpor, you could
> burn-option a Paris Opera House from hand):
>
> www.google.com/groups?selm=3FBB92BB.9060208%40white-wolf.com
>
> But since this topic wasn't the thrust of the question, I'm not sure if
> you intended to agree to that. The rulebook (BH 1.6.1.3) seems a little
> ambiguous: "Some cards that have a requirement also have a burn option
> icon. This icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion
> that meets the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's
> untap phase."

? If the card requires a ready member of a certain clan to play, then
one in torpor doesn't meet that requirement.

> For master cards, the minion in a sense doesn't meet the requirements
> while in torpor, but on the other hand, in a sense he *does* meet the
> requirements of the *card*, he just doesn't grant the Methuselah the
> ability to play the card while in torpor.

A vampire in torpor does not meet the requirements of a master card
that requires a ready member of a certain clan.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Izaak

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Apr 13, 2004, 5:44:17 PM4/13/04

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<snip>

>A vampire in torpor does not meet the requirements of a master card
> that requires a ready member of a certain clan.

So basically what you're saying is this:

If you can't *play* the card with the burn option, you can burn/discard
it. Correct?

Of course, this is barring master restrictions due to OoT masters etc.

LSJ

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Apr 14, 2004, 5:55:41 AM4/14/04

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Mostly. If the thing that keeps you from playing it is a lack of
targets, that won't do, either.

If the reason you can't play it is that you don't control a minion
that meets the requirements of playing it, then you can burn it
(which is how the rules read).

Joshua Duffin

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Apr 14, 2004, 10:32:27 AM4/14/04

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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:407C5BAC...@white-wolf.com...

> ? If the card requires a ready member of a certain clan to play, then
> one in torpor doesn't meet that requirement.

Sure. That's what I thought, but the wording of the rule left me
slightly unsure, because it says first:

"only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the
requirements of a master card can play it"

-> the minion's readiness is separated from "meeting the requirements"

but then:

"a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets the requirements
may discard the card"

I'm not sure if this makes sense to anyone but me, but on looking at the
rule, I could see the possibility of arguing that you do *control* a
minion who meets the requirements even if you're not able to play the
card because the minion isn't currently ready.

Anyway - I think I understand it now. And if so, you cannot
burn-option, for example, Council of Seraphim if your only Seraph is in
torpor (because it only requires Seraph, not a *ready* Seraph), but you
*can* burn-option Deep Cover Agent if your only Seraph is in torpor
(since it requires a "ready" Seraph).

I think it probably added to my confusion about the wording of the two
pieces that I wasn't able at first to think of any burn-option cards
that weren't masters requiring a clan (which require a ready member of
the clan to play).

Josh

sing me something good this time