[LSJ] Ecstatic Agony
Morgan Vening
multiple Ecstatic Agony's accumulate? It would seem so, given that
Laptop Computer has a conditional regards multiples. And multiple
Raven Spies are useful.
Morgan Vening
LSJ
Yes, they accumulate. (They stack.)
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Pepijn
All cards stack by default, unless stated otherwise on the card (or in
the rulings/card migration).
Jyhad_addict
yes,
so do multiple masochism.
Morgan Vening
>Morgan Vening wrote:
>> I'm not sure of the correct procedure for Ecstatic Agony. Simply, do
>> multiple Ecstatic Agony's accumulate? It would seem so, given that
>> Laptop Computer has a conditional regards multiples. And multiple
>> Raven Spies are useful.
>
>Yes, they accumulate. (They stack.)
Oh well, there goes my budget. Finally figured out a way of getting my
!Ven to work. Most suggestions I've seen require either multiple
Lazvernius (which I'm not comfortable with), or cards I don't have
access to, or can't acquire through reasonable fiscal means ($10US for
2 Freak Drives in a Ventrue starter).
Morgan Vening
Matthew T. Morgan
> Oh well, there goes my budget. Finally figured out a way of getting my
> !Ven to work. Most suggestions I've seen require either multiple
> Lazvernius (which I'm not comfortable with), or cards I don't have
> access to, or can't acquire through reasonable fiscal means ($10US for
> 2 Freak Drives in a Ventrue starter).
You really think multiple Ecstatic Agonies will be that great a blocking
deterrant? What if they want to block your action to get the Ecstatic
Agony? What if they have lots of s:ce and aren't worried you might press
and punch for 2? I've always considered Ecstatic Agony a card best suited
for trick decks. I'm sure others agree with me and you wouldn't have too
much trouble trading for them.
Have you tried Crocadile's Tongue? I've got a !Ventrue bleed/vote deck
that uses it and Kiss of Ra as blocking deterrant. Yeah, it's subtle and
you'll still get blocked (this is good as you'll be able to cycle your
combat), but it might allow you to get a few crucial actions through later
in the game. My deck uses a .44 Magnum and Joseph O'Grady for added
bruise.
Matt Morgan
Morgan Vening
<far...@eris.io.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Morgan Vening wrote:
>
>> Oh well, there goes my budget. Finally figured out a way of getting my
>> !Ven to work. Most suggestions I've seen require either multiple
>> Lazvernius (which I'm not comfortable with), or cards I don't have
>> access to, or can't acquire through reasonable fiscal means ($10US for
>> 2 Freak Drives in a Ventrue starter).
>
>You really think multiple Ecstatic Agonies will be that great a blocking
>deterrant? What if they want to block your action to get the Ecstatic
>Agony? What if they have lots of s:ce and aren't worried you might press
>and punch for 2? I've always considered Ecstatic Agony a card best suited
>for trick decks. I'm sure others agree with me and you wouldn't have too
>much trouble trading for them.
That's the thing. It's going to be a trick deck. Mainly because with
my card pool/access, I can't think of a unique way of doing it. I was
thinking of something along the lines of lots of Fort prevent, Undead
Persistence, Rapid Healing, Ecstatic Agony, Force of Will, and the few
Dawn/Day, Freak Drives and Kiss of Ra I have.
I'm aware of the problem a S:CE deck will do to me, but they aren't
hugely prelevant in our metagame, which tends towards
Assamite/Brujah/Toreador/Nos style bruise decks. At a table of 5, you
can expect 3 hitty decks in some fashion. Stealth/Bleed gets caned in
general due to general dislike (lack of cross table assistance),
concept decks (Anarch Revolt, Slaughterhouse) just don't get played
(former due to table hate, latter due to lack of cards), and Vote
tends to have problems due to the prelevance of higher cap vampires
(dedicated Vote usually needs Bewitching to even hope to get a vote
off). So I'm working on that basis.
I'm probably looking at 6-7 Ecstatics (as opposed to the 3-4 if they
weren't stackable), of which I have 3, and know I can trade for fairly
easily.
>Have you tried Crocadile's Tongue? I've got a !Ventrue bleed/vote deck
>that uses it and Kiss of Ra as blocking deterrant. Yeah, it's subtle and
>you'll still get blocked (this is good as you'll be able to cycle your
>combat), but it might allow you to get a few crucial actions through later
>in the game. My deck uses a .44 Magnum and Joseph O'Grady for added
>bruise.
I was planning on using Croc Tongue, and some weapons might be useful.
I was thinking of Vote originally, but without Presence, and without a
substantial number of cheaper voting Vamps, it seemed too difficult to
push votes through. !Ven seems to be the hardest clan to get a real
definitive list for. Most clans are fairly obvious. But of the several
deck concepts, Vote, Stealth, Bruise, !Ven just seem to be
supplemental. I am thinking of a lot of Scouting Mission/Govern for
poolgain/numbers. Not sure if that will work as well as I think. And
of course, the one thing !Ven do well, bleed bounce.
I do like the idea of weapons, and it might give me an opportunity to
use Sawed-Off Shotguns (I'd rather at close, but if at long, I get a
boom, and the subsequent rounds the Ecstatics work).
Morgan Vening
Dasein
> deterrant? What if they want to block your action to get the Ecstatic
> Agony? What if they have lots of s:ce and aren't worried you might press
> and punch for 2? I've always considered Ecstatic Agony a card best suited
> for trick decks. I'm sure others agree with me and you wouldn't have too
> much trouble trading for them.
trick decks? yeah, I'm considering one at the moment based around a
for/THA/AUS combo; Ecstatic Agony + Weather Control + Undead
Persistance (operating under a Trap). Very silly but could be a lot of
fun.
If you want to go crazy, you could add DOM for Thoughts Betrayed. Not
many ways out of that one. Almost guaranteed to bin any vamp in the
game within a few rounds of combat; the loony ecstatic guy punching
you for 4 or 5 (or more) can be prevented if you have lots of
fortitude, but the Weather Control can't.
Jyhad_addict
I have tried this already,
Thoughts Betrayed, Ecstatic Agony, Weather Control, Masochism, Blood
Fury, Trap, Taste. In theory it seems devastating, because you use
weather control to deal enviromental damage, while you "benefit" from
it having masochism, you get + strength and a press from ecstativ
agony, no s:CE with thoughts betrayed, you have for to prevent the
nasty aggro damage, trap for an extra press and blood fury to deal
unpreventable by for damage.
But, the fact that you need to use high-cap vampires, combos that
need a lot of cards and they can always block your ecstatic
agony/masochism makes this deck very hard to work.
I have even come to the conclusion that you don't need ecstatic agony,
it is not that crucial for such a deck.
Azel
an aus/tha deck. also you already have a great advantage against fortitude -
tha anti-for strikes. i still like the idea, it entertains me and that's
worth kudos to me. WC guarantees the needed successful damage - cool. i'd
rather waste my opponent's combat defense though and hold the weather
control for retainers or other tricks.
blood fury, blood rage, cauldron of blood (especially cauldron of blood)
would go well with ecstatic agony aus/tha combat module. short, sweet, and
nasty. taste, take a hit, use a press somehow, strike for at least 2
unpreventable (rage at inferior and free) or 4 unpreventable (fury at
superior for 1 blood) or 4 to 6 damage from the cauldron. and that's just
assuming 1 point hit-back. that's nice 2 card synergy. now stackable
ecstatic agonies makes things really nice.
Which brings me to my questions. if both Ecstatic Agonies are played at
superior they'd also add 1 press per card, right? Can both presses be used
in the same round? Can they be paced out one each round assuming you take at
least 1 pt. hit each round?
by the way, this is some good news. Assamites have a smattering of auspex
and a bit of permanent and free +x strength is a great thing to add with our
celerity. that and al-ashrad, parnassus, ur-shulgi have thaumaturgy and
auspex, so assamite cel/tha decks can mix in some ecstatic agony to good
use. :D stackable ecstatic agonies! yay!
Azel
smaller combat package? something along the lines of:
theft of vitae
blood rage/blood fury/cauldron of blood
apportation/IR goggles as needed
about the blocking of ecstatic agony though... well yeah, that'd not be fun.
but all decks kinda have to live with that. when things get comborrific you
start to become a bigger target, even if you aren't the scariest thing on
the table. for some reason it's a psychological thing that multiple cards
sitting on a vampire tends to get other players worried. maybe the
masochism/ecstatic stacking brings too much attention? they are great fun
cards and i wonder why they don't see more play, especially in !ven decks.
Dasein
> but all decks kinda have to live with that. when things get comborrific you
> start to become a bigger target, even if you aren't the scariest thing on
> the table. for some reason it's a psychological thing that multiple cards
> sitting on a vampire tends to get other players worried. maybe the
> masochism/ecstatic stacking brings too much attention? they are great fun
> cards and i wonder why they don't see more play, especially in !ven decks.
Generally, !Ventrue like to prevent damage, not take it.
I'd say this would be more appropriate in a whacky Tremere/!Tremere
deck (there's a few with fortitude). That discipline combo also has
synergy with another staple, weather control/dawn operation. A friend
of mine has a for/tha weenie deck based around that comboo which can
be quite nasty.
As far as multiple ecstatics providing multiple presses, I can't think
of any reason why they won't, and I can't think of any reason why you
can use your presses in whichever way of combat you like.
As far as I understand it, if a non-combat card gives you a press or a
manuever (say a Bum's Rush), you can use the press or maneuever in any
round you like. But if a combat card gives you it (say an Unflinching
Persistence), you have to use it in that round.
So I'd say a vamp with two ecstatics gets two presses which he can use
in any round he likes.
LSJ
> As far as I understand it, if a non-combat card gives you a press or a
> manuever (say a Bum's Rush), you can use the press or maneuever in any
> round you like. But if a combat card gives you it (say an Unflinching
> Persistence), you have to use it in that round.
>
> So I'd say a vamp with two ecstatics gets two presses which he can use
> in any round he likes.
Card text: "current round".
So, even though it isn't a combat card, the press you "may" use in the
current round is only usable in the current round.
Kevin M.
> Oh well, there goes my budget. Finally figured out a way of getting my
> !Ven to work. Most suggestions I've seen require either multiple
> Lazvernius (which I'm not comfortable with), or cards I don't have
> access to, or can't acquire through reasonable fiscal means ($10US for
> 2 Freak Drives in a Ventrue starter).
US$10 for a starter is unreasonable? OrUS$10 for 2x Freak Drive is
unreasonable?
> Morgan Vening
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Azel
example would help to explain what i'm thinking.
vampire A has 2 ecstatic agonies, both played at superior
vampire B doesn't maneuver to long, press to end, S:CE, dodge, nothing but
plain ol' hitback (because i wanna keep this simple - it is the control - or
the dummy! :) take your pick)
round 1:
range is close
A hits for one
B hits for one
press to continue
round 2
range is close
A hits for three
B hits for one
damage triggers superior of EA1 and EA2 ~
[AUS] As above, and once per combat, this vampire may press to continue
combat if any damage has been successfully inflicted on him or her in the
current round.
Chooses to use only EA1's press, this is the once per combat use of this
press for EA1
press to continue
round 3
range is close
A hits for three
B hits for one
damage triggers only EA2 (damage from current round satisfied, once per
combat restriction not reached yet on this card)
[AUS] As above, and once per combat, this vampire may press to continue
combat if any damage has been successfully inflicted on him or her in the
current round.
Chooses to use EA2's press. once per combat use of this press from EA2 has
been reached, there are no more presses provided by EAs, either EA1 or EA2.
press to continue (to last round...)
Is this example not correct? Can we no spread out the EA's presses? Must we
receive and blow (or let fizzle) all the presses on the 2nd round? If that
was so how come it says current round instead of 2nd round? Hopefully this
explains my question better.
Ecstatic Agony
Type: Action
Requires: Auspex
+1 stealth action.
[aus] Put this card on this acting vampire. Each round of combat, this
vampire gets +X strength, where X is the amount of damage successfully
inflicted on this vampire in the previous round of this combat.
[AUS] As above, and once per combat, this vampire may press to continue
combat if any damage has been successfully inflicted on him or her in the
current round.
Rarity: FN:R2 Anarchs:PAG
LSJ
> yes, this is what i thought. but i was thinking longer combat. perhaps an
> example would help to explain what i'm thinking.
Longer combat won't help you press with Ecstatic Agony based on damage
received in a prior round.
If you don't use the once-per-combat effect in a given round, you are
free to use it in a later round (provided the conditions for use are
met), of course.
> Is this example not correct?
No. :-)
> Can we not spread out the EA's presses?
You can. What you cannot do is carry the press over to another round.
> Must we
> receive and blow (or let fizzle) all the presses on the 2nd round?
No.
> If that
> was so how come it says current round instead of 2nd round?
"instead of 1st round", you mean.
And, while the question is moot ("that" isn't so), there's
no guarantees that the first damage inflicted on a vampire
in a given combat will be inflicted on a particular round.
> Hopefully this
> explains my question better.
It explains a different question. As it is your first post in the
thread, I don't know what previous explanation of your question
this post is improving. The question (assertion) I was responding
to prior to your follow-up was: "a vamp with two ecstatics gets two
presses which he can use in any round he likes [based on the fact
that presses generated from non-combat cards can be used in any
round.]" by Dasein.
Morgan Vening
<you...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>Morgan Vening <mor...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Oh well, there goes my budget. Finally figured out a way of getting my
>> !Ven to work. Most suggestions I've seen require either multiple
>> Lazvernius (which I'm not comfortable with), or cards I don't have
>> access to, or can't acquire through reasonable fiscal means ($10US for
>> 2 Freak Drives in a Ventrue starter).
>
>US$10 for a starter is unreasonable? OrUS$10 for 2x Freak Drive is
>unreasonable?
The latter. With the exception of Kiss of Ra, there is nothing in it
that I have any real use for. I don't mind spendin the money if there
are a lot of useful cards, even if they are not so hard to get. I'm
contrary that way sometimes.
Morgan Vening
Azel
they must be used in that round, they cannot carry over. though you may
choose to only activate 1 press and leave the other EA card effect in hopes
for another round. but like everything in life, there is no guarantee that
your plans will pan out, in this case for another point of damage in a
future round. thank you for clearing that up. sometimes i find myself
speaking less clearly in the dead of night. you undid my "gordian knot" very
well, heh, sorry about that.