Q: Cards Only Usable During (D) Actions?
echia...@yahoo.com
targeted multiple Methuselahs. One of the results was that several
cards like Talley/Lock/Chanjelin Ward should be treated as working
when a card is targeted (not necessarily during a (D) action like some
of the text may say).
That got me to thinking about some other cards that are only usable
during (D) actions.
Most cards (like Black Sunrise, Eyes of Argus, Forced Vigilance, Scry
the Hearthstone, Steadfastness) state "only usable during a (D) action
*directed at you or something you control*."
But Sonar and Watch Commander simply state (D) action.
Most of the time, there is no difference between the two differences
in wording. But it does become an issue with Anneke, Eagle's Sight,
and Falcon's Eye.
#1. Is the "directed at you or something you control" supposed to be
reminder text (so Black Sunrise and Sonar should be treated as similar
text just like Talley and Lock)?
#2. Or are they intentionally different in terms of their wording? So
Anneke when blocking a (D) action directed at someone else can use
Sonar but not inferior Black Sunrise?
Just doublechecking. Thanks.
LSJ
> So the 8/8/2008 rulings changed the directedness of some actions that
> targeted multiple Methuselahs. One of the results was that several
> cards like Talley/Lock/Chanjelin Ward should be treated as working
> when a card is targeted (not necessarily during a (D) action like some
> of the text may say).
>
> That got me to thinking about some other cards that are only usable
> during (D) actions.
>
> Most cards (like Black Sunrise, Eyes of Argus, Forced Vigilance, Scry
> the Hearthstone, Steadfastness) state "only usable during a (D) action
> *directed at you or something you control*."
>
> But Sonar and Watch Commander simply state (D) action.
>
> Most of the time, there is no difference between the two differences
> in wording. But it does become an issue with Anneke, Eagle's Sight,
> and Falcon's Eye.
>
>
> #1. Is the "directed at you or something you control" supposed to be
> reminder text (so Black Sunrise and Sonar should be treated as similar
> text just like Talley and Lock)?
It isn't just reminder text. When it comes to blocking, though, it's a
distinction without a difference, since you cannot block your own actions.
Black Sunrise and Sonar can only be used on (D) actions. Black Sunrise can only
be used on a (D) action whose targets include something you control.
Similarly, Talley and Lock only work on (D) actions, since they only permit
blocking actions that target your own, and you cannot block your own actions.
> #2. Or are they intentionally different in terms of their wording? So
> Anneke when blocking a (D) action directed at someone else can use
> Sonar but not inferior Black Sunrise?
Correct, except for the "or" bit.
echia...@yahoo.com
> echiang...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > #1. Is the "directed at you or something you control" supposed to be
> > reminder text (so Black Sunrise and Sonar should be treated as similar
> > text just like Talley and Lock)?
>
> It isn't just reminder text. When it comes to blocking, though, it's a
> distinction without a difference, since you cannot block your own actions.
>
> Black Sunrise and Sonar can only be used on (D) actions. Black Sunrise can only
> be used on a (D) action whose targets include something you control.
>
> Similarly, Talley and Lock only work on (D) actions, since they only permit
> blocking actions that target your own, and you cannot block your own actions.
I thought the new ruling is that Talley/Lock work based on targeting,
regardless of whether or not the action is (D) or undirected.
So if I play an action targeting my prey's minion other than Talley,
and my predator's Imbued with Lock, the action is undirected, but
Talley and Lock still work because the cards were targeted regardless
of directedness. Right?
LSJ
> On Dec 2, 7:03 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> echiang...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> #1. Is the "directed at you or something you control" supposed to be
>>> reminder text (so Black Sunrise and Sonar should be treated as similar
>>> text just like Talley and Lock)?
>> It isn't just reminder text. When it comes to blocking, though, it's a
>>
>> Black Sunrise and Sonar can only be used on (D) actions. Black Sunrise can only
>> be used on a (D) action whose targets include something you control.
>>
>> Similarly, Talley and Lock only work on (D) actions, since they only permit
>> blocking actions that target your own, and you cannot block your own actions.
>
>
> I thought the new ruling is that Talley/Lock work based on targeting,
> regardless of whether or not the action is (D) or undirected.
By virtue of the fact that you cannot block your own actions, this works out to
the same thing, under the new definition of directed.
> So if I play an action targeting my prey's minion other than Talley,
> and my predator's Imbued with Lock, the action is undirected,
No, it is directed.
> but
> Talley and Lock still work because the cards were targeted regardless
> of directedness. Right?
Anything that Talley's ability applies to is directed, by the new definition of
directed.
echia...@yahoo.com
> >> Similarly, Talley and Lock only work on (D) actions, since they only permit
> >> blocking actions that target your own, and you cannot block your own actions.
>
> > I thought the new ruling is that Talley/Lock work based on targeting,
> > regardless of whether or not the action is (D) or undirected.
>
> By virtue of the fact that you cannot block your own actions, this works out to
> the same thing, under the new definition of directed.
(BTW, I'm talking about Talley/Lock generally, not just when you're
the acting minion).
But previously you stated:
"Yes. The ruling is that things which assume that an action targeting
a minion is
(D) are making that assumption unnecessarily, and work (or "are
usable") for
both directed and undirected actions targeting the minion."
LSJ wrote:
>> So for cards like Condemn the Sins of the Father, Poison the Well of
>> Life, Wave of Insanity, Celestial Harmony, and Shepherd's Innocence:
>> Example Setup: A --> B --> C --> D --> E --> A
>> Player A plays Wave of Insanity (or similar card). Players B, C, and D
>> control allies. Player E does not.
>> #1. From Player A's perspective, this is considered to be an
>> undirected action (since it targets B, C, and D) for the purposes of
>> Creepshow Casino, Mirror's Visage, and Soar. This also means that
>> Tupdog (with no master !Tremere) and Rabbat can take the action but
>> Pariah cannot. Right?
> Correct.
>> #2. This is also an undirected action for determining blockers (only
>> prey B and predator E have the opportunity). Sound good?
> Correct.
>> #3. For Players B, C, and D, this is treated as a directed (D) action
>> (based on the examples provided of Hide and Talley the Hound).
>> Correct?
No. It isn't (D). The bit about Talley explains his "one".
>> #4. But Player E sees this as an undirected action since he controls
>> no allies, right?
Every played sees it as undirected. It is undirected.
>> #5. So during the Wave of Insanity action, Player B cannot use a Wall
>> Street Night Newspaper to provide intercept (but if Player E controls
>> Wall Street Night he can use it). And if Player E controls Allonzo/
>> Benedict/Phillipe that minion cannot block (since it is undirected)
>> but if Player B controls that minion instead, the minion can block
>> (since it is directed). Is that the correct interpretation? So some
>> players see this as a (D) action and others see it as an undirected
>> action?
> Any played can use a Wall Street Night she controls, since the action is
> undirected.
>> #6. Also, if multiple targets each have a Lock or Chanjelin Ward, then
>> the cost of the action is increased by each of these effects?
> No. The action is not directed.
Sorry -- still waking up I guess. Yes, Changelin Ward and Lock operate
like
Talley -- looking to see who is targeted. So they'd work on the Wave
action,
just like Talley's intercept would.
--> So in these instances you seem to be indicating that Talley and
Chanejlin Ward work based on who it is targeting, even if during an
undirected action (like a superior Wave of Insanity). Are you now
reversing this then?
LSJ
> On Dec 2, 7:34 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Similarly, Talley and Lock only work on (D) actions, since they only permit
>>>> blocking actions that target your own, and you cannot block your own actions.
>>> I thought the new ruling is that Talley/Lock work based on targeting,
>>> regardless of whether or not the action is (D) or undirected.
>> By virtue of the fact that you cannot block your own actions, this works out to
>> the same thing, under the new definition of directed.
>
>
> (BTW, I'm talking about Talley/Lock generally, not just when you're
> the acting minion).
Talley only applies when blocking an action that targets your (other) minions.
Lock only applies when other Methsulah's actions target the minion.
Both of these, then, apply only to (D) actions, as every action taken by some
other Methuselah that targets your minion is (D).
> But previously you stated:
>
> "Yes. The ruling is that things which assume that an action targeting
> a minion is
> (D) are making that assumption unnecessarily, and work (or "are
> usable") for
> both directed and undirected actions targeting the minion."
Which is fine for effects that can be used in the other cases.
But any action that another Methuselah takes that targets your minion is
directed, so the undirected bit of the ruling doesn't matter.
[snip old examples]
> --> So in these instances you seem to be indicating that Talley and
> Chanejlin Ward work based on who it is targeting, even if during an
> undirected action (like a superior Wave of Insanity). Are you now
> reversing this then?
Superior Wave is directed, under the new definition of directed (unless all the
allies in play are controlled by the acting Methuselah).
Juggernaut1981
The basic definition of a directed action has effectively been changed
to:
If an action targets something that is not controlled/owned by you, it
is directed at each controller of a target.
So if I play Inquisition, choose my Bishop, Meth B's Bishop and Meth
C's Bishop then it is a directed action targeting Meth B AND Meth C.
Either may block it as if it was directed. Meth D cannot block it as
an undirected action since it is directed at Meths B & C.