Force of Will/Red Herring [FN Spoiler]
Jozxyqk
the Ravnos.
Force of Will requires a tapped vampire. But Red Herring
says you get to untap the vampire and cancel the action.
First of all, does the Red Herring still cause the Force of
Will's agg damage to happen? Judge ruled "no", since the
action was canceled, not blocked.
Second, does the Red Herring actually allow that tapped
vampire to Untap? Or does this fall into the "Leave the
vampire in the state it was in before" realm?
If you can untap a vampire with RH after playing FoW, it's
a pretty sweet combo, even if NRA prevents you from bleeding
again...
Andrew S. Davidson
>First of all, does the Red Herring still cause the Force of
>Will's agg damage to happen? Judge ruled "no", since the
>action was canceled, not blocked.
What about the blood cost of the FoW - is that refunded if the action
is canceled? What does "cancel" mean in this game - the word causes
trouble in other CCG.
>If you can untap a vampire with RH after playing FoW, it's
>a pretty sweet combo, even if NRA prevents you from bleeding
>again...
NRA did not apply in the pre-release events. I was hoping to oust my
prey with a repeat bleed using FoW but he always had at least one more
pool than I could manage in an all-out spurt.
Andrew
LSJ
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:42:20 GMT, Jozxyqk wrote:
> >First of all, does the Red Herring still cause the Force of
> >Will's agg damage to happen? Judge ruled "no", since the
> >action was canceled, not blocked.
Correct - but because the damage happens after the "action or combat"
is resolved by card text (which never happens).
> What about the blood cost of the FoW - is that refunded if the action
> is canceled?
Red Herring is only usable when the action is blocked, so the question
is moot.
> What does "cancel" mean in this game - the word causes
> trouble in other CCG.
Not in this one. Cancel means cancel. Cards played are still played,
costs paid are still paid, etc. except as noted on card text.
> >If you can untap a vampire with RH after playing FoW, it's
> >a pretty sweet combo, even if NRA prevents you from bleeding
> >again...
>
> NRA did not apply in the pre-release events. I was hoping to oust my
> prey with a repeat bleed using FoW but he always had at least one more
> pool than I could manage in an all-out spurt.
Correct. NRA is a special floor rule for constructed tournaments.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Jozxyqk
>> prey with a repeat bleed using FoW but he always had at least one more
>> pool than I could manage in an all-out spurt.
> Correct. NRA is a special floor rule for constructed tournaments.
Yeah.. at every sealed-deck tournament, Ben (Peal, Prince of Boston) gives
out special prizes for repeating actions.. Bleed/Force of Will was a
common source of this over the weekend, although the Bane Mummy that can
untap did manage to repeat an action.. and the non-unique Assamite did
(since we, without further data, ruled that you could untap him any time).
But, in general, in casual play in Boston, we abide by NRA.
And also, Red Herring specifically prohibits repeating the action anyway.
Noal McDonald
> First of all, does the Red Herring still cause the Force of
> Will's agg damage to happen? Judge ruled "no", since the
> action was canceled, not blocked.
I would have ruled the other way as it says that the card is
only playable after a successful block. It'll be interesting
to see what LSJ has to say.
> Second, does the Red Herring actually allow that tapped
> vampire to Untap?
Per card text, yes.
> If you can untap a vampire with RH after playing FoW, it's
> a pretty sweet combo, even if NRA prevents you from bleeding
> again...
Assuming that the FoW doesn't send you to torpor, I'd have to
agree. OTOH, even if it does, that vampire can immediately play
Rapid Healing to get out of torpor. I'll have to re-examine the
Ravnos to see if they can compare favorably to the Gangrel in
making a Juggernaut style deck.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit
Derek Ray
wrote:
>Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:
>> First of all, does the Red Herring still cause the Force of
>> Will's agg damage to happen? Judge ruled "no", since the
>> action was canceled, not blocked.
>
>I would have ruled the other way as it says that the card is
>only playable after a successful block. It'll be interesting
>to see what LSJ has to say.
I made a Force of Will/Change of Target deck about six months ago.
The ruling I asked him for then (in email, since I wanted to bring it
to a tournament as a surprise 'oh shit', and wanted to make sure the
ruling was in existence beforehand) was: You get blocked, the action
gets cancelled, and therefore any remaining effects to the action are
also cancelled. So nope, you don't take the agg =)
>> If you can untap a vampire with RH after playing FoW, it's
>> a pretty sweet combo, even if NRA prevents you from bleeding
>> again...
>
>Assuming that the FoW doesn't send you to torpor, I'd have to
>agree. OTOH, even if it does, that vampire can immediately play
>Rapid Healing to get out of torpor. I'll have to re-examine the
>Ravnos to see if they can compare favorably to the Gangrel in
>making a Juggernaut style deck.
The FoW does not send you to torpor, as the action (and remainder of
the card's effect) is cancelled. The Ravnos can now take three
actions per vampire, effectively:
1) take innocuous non-bleed action (hunt, recruit Hell Hound, play
Patshiv, etc.)
2) bleed with FoW, get blocked, pull FoW back into hand with RH
3) take important non-bleed action (as you've drawn the intercept and
Wake with your bleed action and have a lot better chance of getting it
through)
And there are PLENTY of non-bleed actions for them to take.
-- Derek
Thug of Atlanta
Halcyan 2
>Patshiv, etc.)
>2) bleed with FoW, get blocked, pull FoW back into hand with RH
>3) take important non-bleed action (as you've drawn the intercept and
>Wake with your bleed action and have a lot better chance of getting it
>through)
>
>And there are PLENTY of non-bleed actions for them to take.
Well, after someone does this a few times hopefully the other players might
decide to just take (or deflect) the bleeds. Maybe I'd just rather take the
bleed for 2 or 3 and let your Ravnos go to torpor (and jam your hand with
Herrings too!).
Halcyan 2
Jozxyqk
Ah, but the Ravnos now have "Force of Will Monkey", aka Ankla Hotep.
You can rescue him from torpor for free, *and* he gets an optional press in
combat. Power up those Carrion Crows, or cancel a Trap. Powerful. :)
Derek Ray
Well, obviously you have Rapid Healings and the like in there to pick
your guys back up out of torpor, and since your defense against bleed
is mostly intercept, you can also stop casual diablerie.
But really, I only need one guy with FOR to get a Laptop and suddenly
these bleeds are for 4 each... 5 with Fata Morgana. I wouldn't mind
if I got you to take one bleed for 4 every turn because you were tired
of me taking any of the -other- cool actions. =)
Most of the mid-cap Ravnos have either CHI/FOR, CHI/for, or chi/FOR;
pretty safe to just include some skill cards to build-your-own-vamps,
and the inferior of Red Herring isn't a problem if someone is going
Wake-heavy.
I think I need to break out the FoW/CoT deck and retool it for the
Ravnos now. =)
Halcyan 2
>>decide to just take (or deflect) the bleeds. Maybe I'd just rather take the
>>bleed for 2 or 3 and let your Ravnos go to torpor (and jam your hand with
>>Herrings too!).
>
>Well, obviously you have Rapid Healings and the like in there to pick
>your guys back up out of torpor, and since your defense against bleed
>is mostly intercept, you can also stop casual diablerie.
>
>But really, I only need one guy with FOR to get a Laptop and suddenly
>these bleeds are for 4 each... 5 with Fata Morgana. I wouldn't mind
>if I got you to take one bleed for 4 every turn because you were tired
>of me taking any of the -other- cool actions. =)
Yeah I know. I'm just trying to think of some counters against this combo.
Maybe pack some more DI's? Or *maybe* that Blessing of Chaos finally became A
LOT more useful...
Halcyan 2
Derek Ray
>>But really, I only need one guy with FOR to get a Laptop and suddenly
>>these bleeds are for 4 each... 5 with Fata Morgana. I wouldn't mind
>>if I got you to take one bleed for 4 every turn because you were tired
>>of me taking any of the -other- cool actions. =)
>
>Yeah I know. I'm just trying to think of some counters against this combo.
>Maybe pack some more DI's? Or *maybe* that Blessing of Chaos finally became A
>LOT more useful...
Well, the natural counter is that every successful bleed sends a
vampire to torpor, with the inherent risks involved. Also, there will
be a lot of moving parts - so putting enough Rapid Healings in to make
sure your guy comes back out of torpor is tricky, since if you never
get INTO torpor because of someone actually blocking all the bleeds,
you end up having a handful of Rapid Healing when you want cool
actions.
If you put less Rapid Healing in, someone can just take the bleeds and
leave you sitting in torpor (although you can at least use Red Herring
on the self-rescue to untap, and still rescue with someone else to let
the guy take an action when he comes out.)
Or, as someone else pointed out, just let Uncle Hotep do the bleeding
with his CHI/FOR/OBF. He goes to torpor, and another vamp rescues him
for free right away, solving a LOT of the diablerie issue faced when
leaving someone in torpor over a turn. =)
Noal McDonald
>But really, I only need one guy with FOR to get a Laptop and suddenly
> these bleeds are for 4 each...
Ravnos don't need Laptop computers. They have Animalism. They should
be using Tier of Souls. Not only does it give the Ravnos a blood (which
they'll happily take when they can get) but with ANI, they get that +1 bleed.
I know it's burnable as a (D) action, but you'd be surprised how rarely people
remember it's there, much less make the effort.
> 5 with Fata Morgana.
With the change of text, Fata Morgana just got a whole lot more useful.
> Most of the mid-cap Ravnos have either CHI/FOR, CHI/for, or chi/FOR;
Therein lies the problem with Tier of Souls. No Ravnos less than 6 cap
has ANI. I gripe and I gripe...
Derek Ray
<dhar...@none-of-your-fsking-business.com> wrote:
>Derek Ray wrote:
>>But really, I only need one guy with FOR to get a Laptop and suddenly
>> these bleeds are for 4 each...
>Deek, Derek, Derek.
>
>Ravnos don't need Laptop computers. They have Animalism. They should
>be using Tier of Souls. Not only does it give the Ravnos a blood (which
>they'll happily take when they can get) but with ANI, they get that +1 bleed.
Except that a lot of the vampires who have CHI/for or chi/FOR don't
have superior ANI, meaning that Tier of Souls is worthless for them...
especially in Salbatore Bokkengro's case, where he has CHI/for/pro and
can't even PLAY the card.
(Aside from that, Tier of Souls is what I call a "ridiculous-rare",
because, well, it is. Laptops are the functional alternative for most
people.
UNLESS, of course, you lob in a Treasured Samadji, which gives you
that lovely dodge as well as the +1 bleed. =)
>I know it's burnable as a (D) action, but you'd be surprised how rarely people
>remember it's there, much less make the effort.
Well, that usually falls under the "give my predator an excuse to beat
my ass" line of thinking. Most people see that and think "maybe this
isn't such a good idea."
>> 5 with Fata Morgana.
>
>With the change of text, Fata Morgana just got a whole lot more useful.
Indubitably. It always SHOULD have been a Bonding, and perhaps it was
intended to be so originally, but the pesky card text was miswritten
and not caught...
>> Most of the mid-cap Ravnos have either CHI/FOR, CHI/for, or chi/FOR;
>
>Therein lies the problem with Tier of Souls. No Ravnos less than 6 cap
>has ANI. I gripe and I gripe...
...And you remember that the Ravnos have tons of CHI floating around,
and the inferior of most CHI cards is still well worth playing, and
figure that their lack of ANI is just balance of some kind? ;)