Coupla Questions about Setite corruption [LSJ]
legbiter
and the following two questions came up.
i take an action with a Setite and it is blocked by my prey's vamp,
who is one corruption counter short of being mine, all mine. i play
Venenation, take the vampire over and cancel combat. Is this
newly-taken-over vampire tapped, or untapped? i argued that it was
untapped, because the action never got to the stage where tapping
would normally have occurred, but now i am not so sure.
When i play Venenation and change of target, does the order in which i
play them matter? i argue that it doesn't, because they both take
place and resolve at the same time.
Raille
My short answer is untaped.
The reason is that the Venenation takes effect prior to combat. Combat
is a result of blocking and since the minions controller is now the
same, and combat between minions with the same controller is forbidden,
the minion stole, retains the state of tapped/untapped that it had prior
to the action being undertaken.
Raille
LSJ
>
> legbiter wrote:
> >
> > i won another game last night with my focussed Setite corruption deck
> > and the following two questions came up.
> >
> > i take an action with a Setite and it is blocked by my prey's vamp,
> > who is one corruption counter short of being mine, all mine. i play
> > Venenation, take the vampire over and cancel combat. Is this
> > newly-taken-over vampire tapped, or untapped? i argued that it was
> > untapped, because the action never got to the stage where tapping
> > would normally have occurred, but now i am not so sure.
> >
> > When i play Venenation and change of target, does the order in which i
> > play them matter? i argue that it doesn't, because they both take
> > place and resolve at the same time.
>
> My short answer is untaped.
Th official answer is tapped.
> The reason is that the Venenation takes effect prior to combat. Combat
> is a result of blocking and since the minions controller is now the
> same, and combat between minions with the same controller is forbidden,
> the minion stole, retains the state of tapped/untapped that it had prior
> to the action being undertaken.
Venenation requires a successful block. A successful block taps the blocker.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Raille
LSJ wrote:
>
> Raille wrote:
> >
> > legbiter wrote:
> > >
> > > i won another game last night with my focussed Setite corruption deck
> > > and the following two questions came up.
> > >
> > > i take an action with a Setite and it is blocked by my prey's vamp,
> > > who is one corruption counter short of being mine, all mine. i play
> > > Venenation, take the vampire over and cancel combat. Is this
> > > newly-taken-over vampire tapped, or untapped? i argued that it was
> > > untapped, because the action never got to the stage where tapping
> > > would normally have occurred, but now i am not so sure.
> > >
> > > When i play Venenation and change of target, does the order in which i
> > > play them matter? i argue that it doesn't, because they both take
> > > place and resolve at the same time.
> >
> > My short answer is untaped.
>
> Th official answer is tapped.
>
> > The reason is that the Venenation takes effect prior to combat. Combat
> > is a result of blocking and since the minions controller is now the
> > same, and combat between minions with the same controller is forbidden,
> > the minion stole, retains the state of tapped/untapped that it had prior
> > to the action being undertaken.
>
> Venenation requires a successful block. A successful block taps the blocker.
No so. You just ruled that Venenation could be combined with Mask to
drop multiple Venenations. Mask does not begin combat in any way, so if
blocking is now required, then Mask and Venenation is no longer a valid
combo.
If the above is correct then the minion should be untapped since there
is no 'successful' block.
Raille
James Coupe
>> Venenation requires a successful block. A successful block taps the blocker.
>
>No so. You just ruled that Venenation could be combined with Mask to
>drop multiple Venenations. Mask does not begin combat in any way, so if
>blocking is now required, then Mask and Venenation is no longer a valid
>combo.
No, the tapping effect of a successful block is distinct from entering
combat. Both are brought about by a successful block, however.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
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HEY, MOM! I FOUND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET B457CA213D7E6
YOU WERE TELLING ME TO NOT TALK TO! 68C3695D623D5D
salem christ
> LSJ wrote:
> >
> > Raille wrote:
> > >
> > > legbiter wrote:
> > > > When i play Venenation and change of target, does the order in which i
> > > > play them matter? i argue that it doesn't, because they both take
> > > > place and resolve at the same time.
the timing of when you can play them is the same, however, you can't
physically play two cards at the same time. therefore you have to play
each one and resolve it in turn.
when you play venenation first, you read it's text and then you're
still allowed to play change of target.
if you play change of target first, you read it's text and discover,
oh my, that's it, action over. no chance to play venenation.
> >
> > > The reason is that the Venenation takes effect prior to combat. Combat
> > > is a result of blocking and since the minions controller is now the
> > > same, and combat between minions with the same controller is forbidden,
> > > the minion stole, retains the state of tapped/untapped that it had prior
> > > to the action being undertaken.
> >
> > Venenation requires a successful block. A successful block taps the blocker.
>
> No so. You just ruled that Venenation could be combined with Mask to
> drop multiple Venenations. Mask does not begin combat in any way, so if
> blocking is now required, then Mask and Venenation is no longer a valid
> combo.
example: dani bleeds. hugo attempts to block. dani no play stealth,
block successful, Cailean mask1000 at inferior, entering combat with
hugo and tearing him a new orofice.
> If the above is correct then the minion should be untapped since there
> is no 'successful' block.
sure there is. you need a successful block to play venenation (by, you
know, card text and all that).
you can't then mask at superior, however, as you ....ummm... why
exactly, LSJ? i mean, you can play superior Form of Mist, even though
you're in a combat resulting from the block, so i guess you could play
a superior mask, because you'd still need the stealth...but the block
will still be successful. because they already blocked you. to allow
you to play the venenation. but you wouldn't be able to play more
masks at superior, unless the blocker had as much or more intercept
than the new acting minion.
that hurts my head.
i beleive tapping and entering combat are all part of a block (LSJ?).
venenation's steal minion effect only cancels the combat bit, and
makes no reference to the tapping bit, so the tapping occurs as per
normal.
hmmm....just my thoughts on the matter....which may or may not have
raised more questions than it answered....
salem....
Raille
James Coupe wrote:
>
> In message <3B694CCE...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes
> >> Venenation requires a successful block. A successful block taps the blocker.
> >
> >No so. You just ruled that Venenation could be combined with Mask to
> >drop multiple Venenations. Mask does not begin combat in any way, so if
> >blocking is now required, then Mask and Venenation is no longer a valid
> >combo.
>
> No, the tapping effect of a successful block is distinct from entering
> combat. Both are brought about by a successful block, however.
>
James, if I play mask there is no succesful block, so how does the,
venenation
mask
venenation
mask
template work?
I really want to know? and if the above is correct, legal, and allows
you to add up corruptions, at some point you take control of the
untapped vampire, since the vampire next actually gets to block.
look at this series vs a 1 cap. I act, venenation, take control then
mask to continue my action. where does the succesful block happen?
Raille
LSJ
> James Coupe wrote:
> > In message <3B694CCE...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes
> > >> Venenation requires a successful block. A successful block taps the
blocker.
> > >
> > >No so. You just ruled that Venenation could be combined with Mask to
> > >drop multiple Venenations. Mask does not begin combat in any way, so
if
> > >blocking is now required, then Mask and Venenation is no longer a valid
> > >combo.
Blocking is required by explicit card text on Venenation.
> > No, the tapping effect of a successful block is distinct from entering
> > combat. Both are brought about by a successful block, however.
> >
> James, if I play mask there is no succesful block, so how does the,
> venenation
> mask
> venenation
> mask
> template work?
>
> I really want to know? and if the above is correct, legal, and allows
> you to add up corruptions, at some point you take control of the
> untapped vampire, since the vampire next actually gets to block.
>
> look at this series vs a 1 cap. I act, venenation, take control then
> mask to continue my action. where does the succesful block happen?
It happens first.
Then you play Venenation. Then Mask. Then Venenation, etc.
Whenthe effects are done, you either tap and enter combat
or tap and get stolen. (Getting stolen prevents the combat,
since the combatants now share the same controller).
Raille
So to clarify,
Venenation
Mask
Change of target
would allow you to take control of a minion, untapped.
Correct?
Raille
Sorrow
> > Then you play Venenation. Then Mask. Then Venenation, etc.
> > Whenthe effects are done, you either tap and enter combat
> > or tap and get stolen. (Getting stolen prevents the combat,
> > since the combatants now share the same controller).
> So to clarify,
> Venenation
> Mask
> Change of target
> would allow you to take control of a minion, untapped.
> Correct?
How'd you get that? Scott said the options were:
* Tap and enter combat.
* Tap and get stolen.
So if the minion opposing the Setite is tapped then stolen, when
it comes under the Setite's owner's control, it is tapped.
Sorrow
---
I'm not afraid of being sick, I'm more afraid of being well
I'm not afraid to put the gun in my hand, I'm just afraid it will hurt like
Hurt like hell
Raille
Sorrow wrote:
>
> > > It happens first.
> > > Then you play Venenation. Then Mask. Then Venenation, etc.
> > > Whenthe effects are done, you either tap and enter combat
> > > or tap and get stolen. (Getting stolen prevents the combat,
> > > since the combatants now share the same controller).
> > So to clarify,
> > Venenation
> > Mask
> > Change of target
> > would allow you to take control of a minion, untapped.
> > Correct?
>
> How'd you get that? Scott said the options were:
>
> * Tap and enter combat.
> * Tap and get stolen.
>
> So if the minion opposing the Setite is tapped then stolen, when
> it comes under the Setite's owner's control, it is tapped.
>
Change of Target:
Only usable when this acting minion is blocked. Untap the acting minion,
do not tap the blocking minion, and cancel the current action and
combat. This minion cannot take the same action again this turn.
That seems to me to untap the minion your stealing.
Or am I missing something?
Raille
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > Then you play Venenation. Then Mask. Then Venenation, etc.
> > Whenthe effects are done, you either tap and enter combat
> > or tap and get stolen. (Getting stolen prevents the combat,
> > since the combatants now share the same controller).
> >
>
> So to clarify,
> Venenation
> Mask
> Change of target
> would allow you to take control of a minion, untapped.
>
> Correct?
Correct.