Bloodlines page up.
mgreen02
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html
This struck me:
"Bloodlines is the third expansion from White Wolf for Vampire: The
Eternal Struggle, the collectible card game inspired by Vampire: The
Masquerade and designed by the creator of Magic: The Gathering.
Following the success of the Sabbat War and Final Nights expansions,
Bloodlines introduces the Ahrimanes, Baali, Blood Brothers, Daughters
of Cacophony, Gargoyles, Harbingers of Skulls, Kiasyd, Nagaraja,
Salubri, Salubri antitribu, Samedi, and True Brujah along with each
faction's unique vampiric powers."
I have to say that reading this fills me with mixed feelings about the
forthcoming release with respect to new players. Now I know that
ideally you will not be trying to teach new people how to play V:TES
using Bloodlines, and that the set is aimed at experienced players,
but things are starting to get confusing.
From a totally disconected point of view, the game is an impenetrable
fog of meaningless words and symbols. There's 12 new clans probably
with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching
someone when you're up against that many different and apparently
unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even
stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have
to:
*Know the name of each clan
*Know the name of each discipline
*Match the discipline name to the symbol
*Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines
Adding a dozen new ones hardly helps matters. I'm woried that
Bloodlines increases the gradient on the already steep learning curve
(compared to most other CCGs) and pigeonholes the game yet further
into the "WW game only playable by geek teen goths with too much time"
pantheon.
The view from an oldie already entrenched in the game is that that the
new set looks pretty good though. :)
mattgreen
Mark Allen
following in the NEWS section:
Aug 23
The next V:TES set (after Bloodlines) will be a Camarilla edition, scheduled
for release in Summer 2002. More details will be released here as they
become available.
Is this a typo or what?
"mgreen02" <mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:a346f9cb.0109...@posting.google.com...
Peter Oh
> fog of meaningless words and symbols. There's 12 new clans probably
> with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching
> someone when you're up against that many different and apparently
> unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even
> stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have
> to:
>
> *Know the name of each clan
> *Know the name of each discipline
> *Match the discipline name to the symbol
> *Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines
These concerns struck me as well as soon as we knew of the Bloodlines
expansion. I'm a role-player first and a card gamer second, and I know that
if it weren't for my knowledge of Vampire the Masquerade, I never ever would
have had enough patience to learn all of the terms and alliances and what
not associated with the game. I wasn't confused as much (some of the
mechanics baffled me and I was slow to learn them, ask my playgroup) because
I already knew that the Gangrel have protean and the Tzimisce have
vicissitude. I knew that the Ventrue were in the Camarilla and the Lasombra
were in the Sabbat. I knew what a Templar was and a Justicar so it was
intuitive as to what they did in CCG terms. But if I were to come into the
Jyhad as a total neonate, I would have quit after a month.
This is why the Precons are such a god send. You can shrink the size of the
Vampire world remarkably by teaching newbies with just one of the 8 pre cons
available. And if you manage to teach a group of newbies with exclusively
SW precons, it makes life a lot easier because you have MOST of the core
disciplines available along with the major strageties presented. Trust me.
I know.
The good news is that I don't see the game expanding more than what it will
become after bloodlines, at least from a clan, discipline, terminology point
of view. After bloodlines, all of the major clans and bloodlines will have
a place in the game and unless Justin Achilli and the other Masquerade
developers go crazy and sprout off a 4th edition revised with 43647585854631
new bloodlines, I think we're safe. The exception would be if the CCG
developers attempt to incorporate Kindred of the East into VTES (which I
think would be a HORRIBLE mistake, unless we're talking just Allies and
Retainers) or a Dark ages expansion (which Steve Wieck hinted at as a
possibility). Any further expansions will probably deal with game mechanics
and not actual new story related content. If I'm proven wrong, God help the
newbies.
Overall, I'm concerned but not too much because I'm reasonably certain that
people running demos will be smart enough to walk newbies along so that we
don't tell them "Hey there are 35 clans and bloodlines you have to memorize
and learn a google number of disciplines! Hope it's not too much!" And for
the people who have Masquerade knowledge already, I think bloodlines will
help in a way because it shows how extensive the CCG is in representing
Masquerade, and that it's not a watered down version of the RPG with a lot
of stuff missing.
Even though it is silly that Isabel De Leon could conceivably have a Pulse
of the Canaille. But we'll leave that alone :-)
Peteo
Peter Oh
Mark Allen <alle...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3uur7.37683$g45.17...@news3.rdc2.on.home.com...
> What is even more confusing is that the main Vampire CCG page has the
> following in the NEWS section:
>
> Aug 23
> The next V:TES set (after Bloodlines) will be a Camarilla edition,
scheduled
> for release in Summer 2002. More details will be released here as they
> become available.
>
> Is this a typo or what?
No it is not. White Wolf does plan to release a new base set in Summer
2002. This is to fix old errata, give newbies a chance to get valuable VTES
only cards (5th Tradition, 2nd Tradition) and to add a few new camarilla
cards to the mix. Not to mention that VTES as a whole has some major
cosmetic things they need to get consistent. Not a practical matter, but it
would make the CCG seem more professional or whatever.
Peteo
James Coupe
<mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk> writes
>To even
>stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have
>to:
>
>*Know the name of each clan
>*Know the name of each discipline
>*Match the discipline name to the symbol
>*Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines
Could someone (Steve Wieck? LSJ?) look into the possibility of revising
the current information card?
Thinking randomly, is there any possibility of a "book" style card?
That is, take the current card, double its width and fold it in half (in
order to keep it the size of a normal card), and then spread the
necessary information over both cards?
This might also allow a reversion to the V:TES fold out information of
the three clan disciplines, along with default sect possibly (though
card text will demonstrate that pretty much, now).
Obviously, I've no idea how such would affect packing, pricing,
production etc.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
When all the world seemed to sleep, why, why did you go? EBD690ECD7A1F
Was it me? Was it you? B457CA213D7E6
Questions in a world of blue. 68C3695D623D5D
Halcyan 2
>http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html
Thanks for the web address.
While I'm not too keen on the idea of Bloodline myself (when the idea first
came out I was extremely worried about the future of the game), I do have to
admit that the artwork looks interesting so far. The Samedi picture looks cool
and the female is...interesting we'll say...
In addition, as we all know, game balance is an essential aspect of Jyhad/VTES.
However, since the Bloodlines are expressly meant to augment and supplement
existing clans, I really think some clans might get too much of an edge over
the others. Brujah get True Brujah. Lasombra get Kiasyd. How about the
Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos? Somehow I think that the introduction of
Bloodlines might further imbalance the delicate equilibrium among the clans.
Everything else you said, I pretty much agree.
Halcyan 2
Nystulc
>I have to say that reading this fills me with mixed feelings about the
>forthcoming release with respect to new players. Now I know that
>ideally you will not be trying to teach new people how to play V:TES
>using Bloodlines, and that the set is aimed at experienced players,
>but things are starting to get confusing.
>
>From a totally disconected point of view, the game is an impenetrable
>fog of meaningless words and symbols.
Some time ago, I posted a series of arguments discussing "Fragmentation" by
which I meant the problems that would result from the continued proliferation
of new clans and disciplines. I did not menion the concern that you raise --
the problem of remembering the significance of so many symbols -- though I
agree that that would be a concern as well, should it be handled in the
traditional way.
However the announcement of the "Bloodlines" expansion did not heighten my
apprehensions. Rather, it appeased my worries considerably. The mere fact
that so many new groups would be added in a single small expansion indicated
clearly that WW was NOT planning to introduce "new clans and disciplines" in
the usual fashion, for they could not possibly introduce 12 new "clans" and 10
new "disciplines" in so small a space. Clearly, these bloodlines, with their
unique powers, will not be presented in the usual fashion. A different
approach will have to be taken, likely one that takes into account design
concerns similar to those that you, I, and others have articulated.
>There's 12 new clans probably
>with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching
Ah. Read more carefully. The web-page promises no new clans. In fact, it
specifically states that the groups being introduced are "not clans unto
themselves" and even suggests that some are "splinter offshoots of greater
clans". Nor does it even promise that each will have its own clan symbol.
No "new disciplines" have been promised on the page, and it certainly has not
been promised that they will be presented in the traditional fashion. It was
merely promised that "each faction's unique vampiric powers" will be
represented (somehow).
Now I do recall that in the original announcement Mr. Wieck did indeed promise
"new disciplines", but he certainly did not promise TEN of them, and there is
certainly no room for such. I also find it interesting that this promise of
"new disciplines" has not been repeated in later announcements. At most, I
would expect that two or three "new disciplines" will be presented in the
traditional fashion, with others presented in less space-wasting ways (special
abilities printed on vampires; group-based special abilities, "Path" cards
modifying the nature of standard disciplines, etc.)
>someone when you're up against that many different and apparently
>unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even
>stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have
>to:
>
>*Know the name of each clan
>*Know the name of each discipline
>*Match the discipline name to the symbol
>*Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines
Now don't get me wrong -- I would rather like the new bloodlines to have their
own symbols, as a purely decorative and aesthetic bonus feature. But there is
absolutely no need for these to be presented in such a way that players must be
required to rely on such features in order to play the game.
Take for example the new Final Nights expansion. It introduced ten categories
of ally/retainer (animals, changelings, demons, ghouls, mages, mortals,
mummies, wraiths, werewolves, and zombies -- did I miss one?). No new symbols
whatsoever were required, merely a self-explanatory reference to card text. In
addition to the categories introduced by card text, at least two more
sub-categories (bane mummies and hunters) were introduced by card title
So if some or all of the new bloodlines are identified by card-text, (whether
they reduntantly have a symbolic identification as well or no) then there will
be no need for new players to remember new symbols. All that is needed is to
type the word "Samedi" or "Baali" somewhere on the card.
-- John Whelan
Nystulc
>However, since the Bloodlines are expressly meant to augment and supplement
>existing clans, I really think some clans might get too much of an edge over
>the others.
Not necessarily. The "balance" between clans is not that fragile, and balance
concerns can adequately be considered in any good design
>Brujah get True Brujah.
Yes, but how many? Six at most, I think, and they will likely be mostly of
high capacity.
>Lasombra get Kiasyd.
The Lasombra only have 15 vampires currently. The addition of a half-dozen odd
Kiasid will hardly unbalance things, considering that other clans have 24, not
even considering out-of-clan vampires that are compatible due to similar
disciplines.
>How about the
>Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos?
Will likely recieve new animalism, auspex, dominate, and fortitude powers, as
well as vampires with those abilities. In particular, the Tremere will be
enhanced by the Nagaraja, who share two of their disciplines.
>Somehow I think that the introduction of
>Bloodlines might further imbalance the delicate equilibrium among the clans.
I don't think that equilibrium is nearly so delicate as you suppose. Nor are
the problems you mention incapable of being handled by an intelligent designer
-- and we know we have one.
-- John Whelan
Halcyan 2
>they reduntantly have a symbolic identification as well or no) then there
>will
>be no need for new players to remember new symbols. All that is needed is to
>type the word "Samedi" or "Baali" somewhere on the card.
>
But another important thing for White Wolf to remember is to not hamstring
itself in the future.
If White Wolf decides to make all those unique disciplines not actual
"disciplines," or those bloodlines not actual "clans" per se (all of which
isn't necessarily a bad thing), it will be stuck with that decision for the
rest of time...
I'm sure that even now White Wolf is more than a bit embarrassed with WotC's
Blood Brother Ambush and Gargoyle Slave, both of which seem to be making less
and less sense especially with Bloodlines now.
So before deciding on the exact implementation for Bloodlines, they really have
to have a good idea what direction they want the game to go in the future (and
I'm sure they already now that!).
Halcyan 2
Halcyan 2
>
>The Lasombra only have 15 vampires currently. The addition of a half-dozen
>odd
>Kiasid will hardly unbalance things, considering that other clans have 24,
>not
>even considering out-of-clan vampires that are compatible due to similar
>disciplines.
Yes but at least for now, the Lasombra are relatively balanced with the rest of
the Sabbat clans. What happens if (when) they decide to bring the number of
Sabbat vampires to 24 (to match the Camarilla and Independents)? Should the
Kiasyd "count" as some of the Lasombra's vampires? Or will they give them a
hefty advantage? Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of
an advantage to the Brujah.
>>How about the
>>Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos?
>
>Will likely recieve new animalism, auspex, dominate, and fortitude powers, as
>well as vampires with those abilities. In particular, the Tremere will be
>enhanced by the Nagaraja, who share two of their disciplines.
Actually I've previously addressed how the Nagaraja (aus/dom/nec) might help
the Tremere. I was just using some clans as an example. But the point still
stands: some clans will get a lot more out of the expansion than others (and
for no other reason than "that's the way the RPG is like."
Halcyan 2
Nystulc
>But another important thing for White Wolf to remember is to not hamstring
>itself in the future.
Which is exactly why too many disciplines (in particular) should not be added.
It creates too many "fragments" of the game and commits White Wolf to
supporting each indefinitely. And once done, it cannot be undone.
>If White Wolf decides to make all those unique disciplines not actual
>"disciplines," or those bloodlines not actual "clans" per se (all of which
>isn't necessarily a bad thing), it will be stuck with that decision for the
>rest of time...
You are (perhaps unfortunately) probably wrong about this. A "non-fragmenting"
approach commits White Wolf to nothing at all. Printing a handful of Gargoyles
with Potence, Fortitude, and various Visceratika-inspired special abilities
such as optional maneuvers each combat in no way prevents them of later
printing Gargoyles with a Visceratika discipline symbol and a whole host of
cards to support that discipline (Bad Idea, IMHO).
In particular, it in no way limits White Wolf's options at all if Bloodlines
are not treated as clans, per se, or if they are not identifed exclusively by
symbol. If they are identifed by card text ("Gargoyle; Independent") or card
title "Vincent LaVie (Gargoyle)" then they may be referenced by cards in the
usual fashion: "Requires Ready Gargoyle" etc. They can still have (and
probably should have) a distinctive card backround with clan symbol, but this
need not be relied upon as knowledge players need to have. One can do with
words anything that can be done with symbols.
>I'm sure that even now White Wolf is more than a bit embarrassed with WotC's
>Blood Brother Ambush and Gargoyle Slave, both of which seem to be making less
>and less sense especially with Bloodlines now.
I don't think they are embarrassed, nor should they be. Certainly, this did
not hamstring them or limit their options, as history has shown. And I seem to
recall that "Camarilla Vitae Slave" was printed as a retainter long after a
whole host were printed as standard vampires.
>So before deciding on the exact implementation for Bloodlines, they really
>have
>to have a good idea what direction they want the game to go in the future
>(and
>I'm sure they already now that!).
I'm certain.
-- John Whelan
Andy Brown
>
>
> Yes but at least for now, the Lasombra are relatively balanced with the rest of
> the Sabbat clans. What happens if (when) they decide to bring the number of
> Sabbat vampires to 24 (to match the Camarilla and Independents)? Should the
> Kiasyd "count" as some of the Lasombra's vampires? Or will they give them a
> hefty advantage? Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of
> an advantage to the Brujah.
>
But don't you consider that discipline wise
The Brujah have !Brujah
The Toreador have !Toreador
The Nosferatu have !Nosferatu
and vice versa
and Toreador have Brujah (2 shared clan disciplines)
This puts these clans at high numbers anyway.
The clans will never manage true balance, and I don't think they should.
Leave them to increase at their own rate, influence the ones you want,
and construct decks around that.
I personally think bloodlines will give a little taste of other things
that are out there in the world of darkness to influence as a
Methesulah,
and that will aid the game. Yes, it might make it a little difficult
to start with, but then once newbies have learnt the basics, I don't
see that it will be a problem to then pick up the rest.
Andy
Setite Ruler of Cambridge
www.geocities.com/setitesuk
--
Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of
outragous fortune, or get fat on chocolate cake, eat the cake, life
is too short to worry!
Nystulc
>Yes but at least for now, the Lasombra are relatively balanced with the rest
>of
>the Sabbat clans. What happens if (when) they decide to bring the number of
>Sabbat vampires to 24
I doubt that this will radically effect their power. In any event, balance
considerations need not be considered for the next expansion until the next
expansion is released, at which point the designer will know better what
imbalances currently exist and might need to be addressed. Your concern is way
premature, especially considering that the next set will be Camarilla.
If I were you, I would be far more concerned that some abusively powerful card
may get past the playtesters unnoticed. This seems a far more likely
possibility in my book. But even mistakes like that can be corrected.
>(to match the Camarilla and Independents)? Should the
>Kiasyd "count" as some of the Lasombra's vampires? Or will they give them a
>hefty advantage? Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of
>an advantage to the Brujah.
If you count the Antitribu's, the Brujah already have 24+15 +39 vampires. Add
in the Toreador & the Toreador Antitribu (who share 2 of their 3 disciplines
just as the True Brujah do) and you get 40 more vampires. Then their are
countless others who share their discipline to varying extents. Adding 6 "True
Brujah" to the mix is a drop in the bucket at this point.
I don't even know if we will get as many as 6 each for the bloodlines. If the
set contains 60 vampires (more than the last one, with 58), then that is only 5
vampires for each of 12 bloodlines -- assuming no new vampires get introduced
for traditional clans.
>>>How about the
>>>Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos?
>>
>>Will likely recieve new animalism, auspex, dominate, and fortitude powers,
>as
>>well as vampires with those abilities. In particular, the Tremere will be
>>enhanced by the Nagaraja, who share two of their disciplines.
>
>Actually I've previously addressed how the Nagaraja (aus/dom/nec) might help
>the Tremere. I was just using some clans as an example. But the point still
>stands:
I think that your point hardly stands without a better example. And I think we
should look at the actual cards printed before assessing game balance.
>some clans will get a lot more out of the expansion than others (and
>for no other reason than "that's the way the RPG is like."
Some clans will get a little more than others for a myriad of reasons.
Probably it will probably be something totally unanticipated, like the
Anti-Malks getting a new auspex card that just happens to work too well in a
sick dementation combo that the design team did not anticipate.
Maintaining balance is far more complex than counting vampires.
The RPG, of course, does very little to limit designers options. Spiritus
could be reinterpreted as a Path of Auspex (just as Nihilistics was
reinterpreted as Necromancy), in which case the Ahrimanes could complement the
Tzimisce well with their auspex/animalism combo. Alternatvely, the designer
could just print a few atypicals who happen to mesh with the Tzimisce.
LSJ
> From a totally disconected point of view, the game is an impenetrable
> fog of meaningless words and symbols. There's 12 new clans probably
> with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching
> someone when you're up against that many different and apparently
> unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even
> stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have
> to:
>
> *Know the name of each clan
> *Know the name of each discipline
> *Match the discipline name to the symbol
> *Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines
Not really. All you have to do is match the symbols on your library cards
with the symbols on your crypt cards, now that the names are never being
used without the symbols nearby.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Andrew S. Davidson
>In addition, as we all know, game balance is an essential aspect of VTES.
>However, since the Bloodlines are expressly meant to augment and supplement
>existing clans, I really think some clans might get too much of an edge over
>the others. Brujah get True Brujah. Lasombra get Kiasyd. How about the
>Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos? Somehow I think that the introduction of
>Bloodlines might further imbalance the delicate equilibrium among the clans.
Delicate equilibrium? The last time I looked at this, the Ventrue
were way out in front of the other clans (whose performance was far
from uniform). Looking at the decks in the final of this weekend's EC
championship, they include:
* Emerson vote and bleed
* Queen Ann takeover bloat
* presence and dominate vote / bleed bounce
Kudos to the Malkavian antitribu that beat all these successful
Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them
into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a
shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not
available to commoners.
Andrew
Reyda
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20010924003606...@mb-mv.aol.com...
(snip)
> Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of
> an advantage to the Brujah
Yes and No. Providing the True Brujah will be High cap and cannot learn and
use celerity at all (like in the RPG), they will benefit experienced players
only, who want to create soemthing new.
reyda
Reyda
"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20010924030344...@mb-ma.news.cs.com...
:
> Maintaining balance is far more complex than counting vampires.
i agree. i hope the playtest will be sufficient. are the playtesters' logic
as twisted as the "real" players' ?
> The RPG, of course, does very little to limit designers options. Spiritus
> could be reinterpreted as a Path of Auspex (just as Nihilistics was
> reinterpreted as Necromancy), in which case the Ahrimanes could complement
the
> Tzimisce well with their auspex/animalism combo.
No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced with
their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning.
> Alternatvely, the designer
> could just print a few atypicals who happen to mesh with the Tzimisce.
It's obvious, they will mesh even if they share only 2 disciplines. You are
not forced to use 3 disciplines to make a deck =) i saw Potence only or
Aus/Vic only decks that works really well.
reyda
Mike Nudd
> For all to see at:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html
>
> This struck me:
>
> "Bloodlines is the third expansion from White Wolf for Vampire: The
> Eternal Struggle, the collectible card game inspired by Vampire: The
> Masquerade and designed by the creator of Magic: The Gathering.
> Following the success of the Sabbat War and Final Nights expansions,
> Bloodlines introduces the Ahrimanes, Baali, Blood Brothers, Daughters
> of Cacophony, Gargoyles, Harbingers of Skulls, Kiasyd, Nagaraja,
> Salubri, Salubri antitribu, Samedi, and True Brujah along with each
> faction's unique vampiric powers."
>
> I have to say that reading this fills me with mixed feelings
I have to say I do have my reservations, and for similar reasons. As a
VEKN Prince, I feel responsible for encouraging as many players as
possible, both new and experienced. I can see the plethora of new
clans, disciplines and their associated symbols being somewhat of a
headache, especially for newbies. I fear we will have to label
Bloodlines an 'advanced' set, specifying non-Bloodlines demos and
intro games to avoid making things more confusing for observers and
newcomers.
One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the
number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines
set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other
disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite
antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included?
And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? I suspect there
will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu
either? If these elements are not to be included in this or future
cardsets then why not? It all seems a bit slapdash and half-hearted to
me. (Obviously I have not been privy to the playtest info, nor WW's
future release schedule. Can Steve, Todd or LSJ address my fears?)
Regards,
Mike Nudd
VEKN Prince of London
LSJ
"Bloodlines", the WoD term, doesn't encompass the groups you mention.
"antitribu" clans are not "bloodlines" - they're just members of a
major clan that have a different allegiance than the majority of their
clanmates. (The fact that the card game represents them as separate
clans notwithstanding.)
The Bloodlines expansion focuses on the Bloodlines and is already
bursting at the seams with the actual bloodlines to even consider
extending the scope to all hitherto-unrepresented WoD concepts.
No one can say that a given WoD element will never be included in a
future cardset, so the question "why not" is moot.
mgreen02
> mgreen02 wrote:
[snip]
> > To even stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have
> > to:
> >
> > *Know the name of each clan
> > *Know the name of each discipline
> > *Match the discipline name to the symbol
> > *Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines
>
> Not really. All you have to do is match the symbols on your library cards
> with the symbols on your crypt cards, now that the names are never being
> used without the symbols nearby.
Granted. Playing the game at a basic nuts and bolts level you can
treat it as a symbol matching excerise. Getting the most out of the
game is a different matter. The problem arises when you try and
communicate information about the game, especially as the symbols
themselves are interpretive. My girlfriend, for example, who is
learning and is by no means a bad player, technically, coming as she
does from a Magic background would have trouble interacting with this
newsgroup unless she knew the above information. For me to talk to her
about the game involves the same information or a verbally descriptive
use of the symbols.
It's better than it was, but the Jyhad set is not the benchmark to
measure ease of play by, it is Pokemon or Harry Potter.
mattgreen
"....so the yellow guys...."
"The Ventrue antitribu."
"....um, yeah, they've got; Eyeball, Patio...and what else?"
"Fortitude"
"??"
"Mountain"
"Ah. And the purple guys...."
"Which purple guys?"
"The ones with Wave"
"Yes, the Lasombra do have Obtenebration, i'm with you- go on"
"Yeah them. They have; Wave, Patio and Fist right?"
"Right"
"So which ones have; Patio, Eyeball and Pentagram then?"
"Don't worry about them."
Andrew S. Davidson
>"The ones with Wave"
>"Yes, the Lasombra do have Obtenebration...
Around here, it's called "hairy".
Andrew
legbiter
about how this is going to fit into the existing scheme of things. The
only thing that worries me is how we are going to run pre-releases if
WW have really stopped printing precons. Will there be prerelease
events? Is there enough product left to be sure that there will be
material to run them?
James Coupe
s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes
>Delicate equilibrium? The last time I looked at this, the Ventrue
>were way out in front of the other clans (whose performance was far
>from uniform).
The Ventrue have a considerable amount of flexibility in a number of
ways which makes them really quite popular. That they also work well
defensively in combat and offensively in votes/bleeding means that it is
somewhat easier for J. Random Player to construct a deck that will
survive. The same player playing, say, Malkavians will struggle
somewhat to cover the bases without a fair degree of skill - Malkavian
combat defence is one of those tricky concepts to master.
When the clans get played by the right players with good skill, however,
it is far more tricky to establish what will happen where and when.
Lots of games have similar issues. Whilst I haven't heard much from
Lo5R for a long time, at one point (AIUI) the Crane clan were quite
powerful and quite versatile, but needed a strong player to bring them
through, once the players had realised "Ah, Crane clan. Honour win
easy. Must resist."
Put a powerful Ventrue deck[0] against a powerful Gangrel Royalty deck,
a strong Setite Free States Rant deck, an out-of-turn Malkavian
Rotschreck deck and a Tzimisce intercept-bleed deck[1] and all of them
have extremely strong chances of doing well. It's far from a foregone
conclusion.
[0] Whatever particular Ventrue deck you want. Just be glad it's not
the old Arika-RtoI-Day Operation deck (c) Rob Treasure, GenConUK 1997.
[1] Order the table however you want.
James Coupe
>"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message news:
>20010924030344...@mb-ma.news.cs.com...
>> Maintaining balance is far more complex than counting vampires.
>
>i agree. i hope the playtest will be sufficient. are the playtesters' logic
>as twisted as the "real" players' ?
I would suggest that LSJ's often is that twisted, in a pre-emptive
manner, even if no-one else's is.
Franz Foltz
less and less likely that people will contest. Back in the old
Jyhad-only days, contesting was a large dimension of the game. It has
become less and less so. (There are a few exceptional vamps that make
their way into many decks.) Contesting was almost a viable strategy for
eliminating pool (it was sort of a two edged sword.)
Franz
Nystulc
>No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced with
>their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning.
I believe you are mistaken. Please provide a quote.
The most that was EVER said was that the set would contain new disciplines. It
was never said that EACH new group would have a new discipline (and we know
that this is not so anyway, re the Nagaraja and the Harbingers). Nor was it
promised that "new disciplines" would be presented in the original manner.
Sure, each group will have its unique vampiric powers represented in some
fashion, but that could mean anything.
We know that there is scant room in the set for presenting ten whole new
disciplines in the traditional fashion. Do the math yourself.
-- John Whelan
Ian Lee
>number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines
>set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other
>disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite
>antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included?
Has a reason for not focusing on these ever been given? Kill two birds by both
finishing off (first edition) Sabbat and by giving decks built around the
disciplines more options.
>And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce?
I expect this is fairly easy for WW to do in future expansions as they wouldn't
require introducing new disciplines or sects, whereas the optimal time for
introducing the rest of the Sabbat has long passed. Though, I suppose if !Trem
come back fleshed out, could do an expansion focused around !Ravnos, !Trem,
!Assamites, SoL.
I suspect there
>will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu
>either?
What is the Ma- ... Black Hand? I have The Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand
book, and it's messy with the false BH, the true BH, there silly war against
Vicissitude, etc. I believe later editions of the RPG may have overwritten
that info anyway.
The only way I'd see having the Inconnu's presence in the game would be some
sort of master that did weirdness, a la Lupine Assault. The whole point of the
Inconnu is to be outside the Jyhad. The effects of their existence should be
"random" to represent that.
Derek Ray
<faf...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu> wrote:
>The big problem with all these new vamps and clans is that they make it
>less and less likely that people will contest. Back in the old
Which is good. Right now, contesting vampires usually kills or weakens
both decks involved in the contestation, unless the vampire in question
is Smudge.
>Jyhad-only days, contesting was a large dimension of the game. It has
>become less and less so. (There are a few exceptional vamps that make
>their way into many decks.) Contesting was almost a viable strategy for
>eliminating pool (it was sort of a two edged sword.)
One which -invariably- cuts both ways, yes. I am not sorry to see more
variety in the game, myself; especially considering the length of
individual games.
--
Derek
AGITATOR, n. A statesman who shakes the fruit trees of
his neighbors -- to dislodge the worms.
Halcyan 2
>Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them
>into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a
>shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not
>available to commoners.
You seem awfully fond of the term "power rares" Andrew. Anyway, if you mean
that Joe Bloggs can't walk down the street, buy a $9.95 starter deck and
automatically get a Derange then you're right. But don't forget the collectible
aspect of the game. It *is* possible for "commoners" to get Deranges. If they
aren't, then they're probably not trying hard enough or don't want them that
much...
Halcyan 2
Peter Oh
Mike Nudd <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message
news:36e685b2.01092...@posting.google.com...
> One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the
> number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines
> set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other
> disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite
> antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included?
> And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? I suspect there
> will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu
> either? If these elements are not to be included in this or future
> cardsets then why not? It all seems a bit slapdash and half-hearted to
> me. (Obviously I have not been privy to the playtest info, nor WW's
> future release schedule. Can Steve, Todd or LSJ address my fears?)
If I were in the designer's shoes, I wouldn't include the !Assamites,
!Ravnos, SOL, !Lasombra into the mix in the traditional way. There is
absolutely no need for more confusion with terms, symbols and clan-only
cards considering that the four groups above do not have different
discipline spreads than their counterparts. The main 7 antitribu clans play
a bigger role in the RPG in terms of formation of the Sabbat and they needed
to have been represented as totally different clans to help make the Sabbat
a viable sect for the CCG, not to mention the fact that three of the seven
main antitribu have different discipline spreads. If you notice, White Wolf
has already hinted at the inclusion of the !Ravnos and the !Lasombra with
Lucita (marked Independent) and Anka, Priestess of Thorns (marked Sabbat).
I think this will be a perfect way to continue to represent certain
antitribu clans, (just change their sect in the card text) without all of
the headache of making them official clans.
The Black Hand should be included in the CCG at some point I think. As
we've seen, Emiliano has some wonderful BH cards and rules variants on his
website, and I found myself wishing that something like that would be
incluuded in the future. This makes me wonder however, why do so many
people on this news group seem to think that expansions must now be released
as "sect-focused?" People are saying that the next Independent expansion or
the next Sabbat expansion are way far off. Why not include the Blackhand in
the next expansion after the Camarilla 2002 expansion? There is no rule
saying that once we include a Sabbat element into a set that the whole set
must now be Sabbat focused.
James Coupe
<cur...@aol.com> writes
>>One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the
>>number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines
>>set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other
>>disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite
>>antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included?
>
>Has a reason for not focusing on these ever been given? Kill two birds by both
>finishing off (first edition) Sabbat and by giving decks built around the
>disciplines more options.
Considering the fact that Sabbat War was chosen above Final Nights for
marketing reasons (a necessary evil), it seems quite likely that similar
thoughts may well have been had here. White Wolf may feel that they've
used the Sabbat "draw" as much as they care to at the present time,
preferring to exploit other facets of the World of Darkness milieu such
that no one area becomes used too much.
Mike:
>>And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce?
Unless things have changed significantly, I seem to recall that non-
Sabbat Tzimisce were practically non-existent - far, far more so than
the Lasombra Antitribu of whom there are quite a few.
>I expect this is fairly easy for WW to do in future expansions as they wouldn't
>require introducing new disciplines or sects, whereas the optimal time for
>introducing the rest of the Sabbat has long passed. Though, I suppose if !Trem
>come back fleshed out, could do an expansion focused around !Ravnos, !Trem,
>!Assamites, SoL.
This seems like quite good idea indeed for, say, Spring 2003. Or, if
they want to make it a fairly large set like Final Nights, release it at
the end of 2003/start of 2004 with a smaller set in the middle of 2003.
(I really, really, really want the number of sets per year to slow down.
The game needs time to re-adjust.)
>The only way I'd see having the Inconnu's presence in the game would be some
>sort of master that did weirdness, a la Lupine Assault. The whole point of the
>Inconnu is to be outside the Jyhad. The effects of their existence should be
>"random" to represent that.
A Salubri card with Inconnu inclinations is quite possible, given the
"apology" in 2nd edition Players Guide.
Halcyan 2
>
>Unless things have changed significantly, I seem to recall that non-
>Sabbat Tzimisce were practically non-existent - far, far more so than
>the Lasombra Antitribu of whom there are quite a few.
Yep. Whereas there's a decent number of Lasombra Anti's (probably about the
same number as Assamites Schismatics which are about a third of the Assamite
clan), you can pretty much count the number of Camarilla Tzimisce on one
hand...
>(I really, really, really want the number of sets per year to slow down.
>The game needs time to re-adjust.)
I agree. And our bank accounts need time to re-adjust as well! =)
Halcyan 2
jeroen rombouts
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010924185817...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> >>>And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce?
> >
> >Unless things have changed significantly, I seem to recall that non-
> >Sabbat Tzimisce were practically non-existent - far, far more so than
> >the Lasombra Antitribu of whom there are quite a few.
>
> Yep. Whereas there's a decent number of Lasombra Anti's (probably about
the
> same number as Assamites Schismatics which are about a third of the
Assamite
> clan), you can pretty much count the number of Camarilla Tzimisce on one
> hand...
>
W. Mark Woodhouse
wrote:
>The Black Hand should be included in the CCG at some point I think. As
>we've seen, Emiliano has some wonderful BH cards and rules variants on his
>website, and I found myself wishing that something like that would be
>incluuded in the future. This makes me wonder however, why do so many
>people on this news group seem to think that expansions must now be released
>as "sect-focused?" People are saying that the next Independent expansion or
>the next Sabbat expansion are way far off. Why not include the Blackhand in
>the next expansion after the Camarilla 2002 expansion? There is no rule
>saying that once we include a Sabbat element into a set that the whole set
>must now be Sabbat focused.
>
Let me just throw out a plug for my preferred "Next Expansion After
The Camarilla One" (NEATCO?)
The Renegades. I would LOVE to see a storyline-attached (not
storyline-focused) expansion looking at those who THINK they've
escaped the Jyhad. The Anarch Free State could give us some new
weenies and some new anti-weenie goodness, as well as some Eastern
Kindred masters or Allies. The Black Hand, as mentioned, could be the
shot in the arm that Sabbat politics is missing as well as throwing in
some neat diablerie-related oddities. This would also be the logical
set for a few Sabbat Setites, Ravnos, and Assamites and maybe 1
Independent Tzimisce with ANI AUS DOM etc etc etc and a familiar name.
Possibly a few other Inconnu-related masters or locations.
Just a data point, in case WW is wondering what to do in 2003.
Mark Woodhouse
Prince of Minneapolis
(and slavering for his Bloodlines... BTW, _love_ the logo design)
Nystulc
>One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the
>number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines
>set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other
>disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite
>antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included?
>And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce?
As far as the Ravnos Antitribu and the Lasombra Antribu are concerned (at
least), there already appears to be a clear indication on how the design team
intends to handle such issues.
For instance the most prominent "Lasombra Antitribu" in the WoD unverse,
currently, seems to be Lucita. The design team handled this merely by giving
her an alternate sect allegiance.
And we also have "Anka: Priestess of Thorns", a Sabbat Ravnos.
>I suspect there
>will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu
>either?
You cannot reasonably have Inconnu as vampires in play -- because that is
contrary to the entire concept of being Inconnu. Once you influence an vampire
into play he is about as Connu as he can be. However, if you want to imagine
yourself (the Methuselah) as an Inconnu, that is fine.
I'm sure we will see Black Hand eventually, though I am personally not much
looking foreward to them. More Sabbat Scumbags, and likely even harder to kill
than usual!
-- John Whelan
Nystulc
>And the Old Country Tzimisce? The guys with ANI, AUS and DOM >*drool*
Officially, no such group exists as a well-defined entity. That is why the
term "Old Clan Tzimisce" was dropped in preference for terminology such as you
just used. There are elder Tzimisce who, for various reasons, did not joint
the Sabbat. Some (but not all) of these, for their own reasons again, reject
the use of Vicissitude. Some of those who reject Vicissitide perhaps prefer
Dominate, whereas others might prefer Potence -- or whatever. They have no
definable political structure, are not a clan, and do not have their own set
discipline mix.
No doubt, there is more than one Independent Tzimice with ani-aus-dom. But
they do not form a definable group in any official sense.
Of course, nothing prevents WW from printing, in some future expansion, one or
more Independent Tzimisce who dwell in the Old Country and have Dominate
instead of Vicissitude.
-- John Whelan
Nystulc
>The big problem with all these new vamps and clans is that they make it
>less and less likely that people will contest.
I am not particularly eager to see contesting of vampires as a strategy. I
would, however, like to see more contesting of Titles. I do not think, for
instance, that we need to introduce into the game any more Cities for vampires
to be Princes of. If more Princes are introduced to the game, they can re-use
old cities, and contest eachother's titles if both come into play.
-- John Whelan
Halcyan 2
>currently, seems to be Lucita. The design team handled this merely by giving
>her an alternate sect allegiance.
Actually, in turns out Lucita wasn't really a Lasombra Antitribu after all
(!Lasombra are in the Camarilla any way, by default).
In fact, Lucita really should be considered just plain "Lasombra" since she's
joined up with the Sabbat ever since SW! (She now manages Madrid since
Moncada's dead).
Halcyan 2
Reyda
> Reyda wrote:
>
> >No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced
with
> >their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning.
>
> I believe you are mistaken. Please provide a quote.
S Wieck said that in a interview made by a european player months ago.
> The most that was EVER said was that the set would contain new
disciplines. It
> was never said that EACH new group would have a new discipline (and we
know
> that this is not so anyway, re the Nagaraja and the Harbingers).
some new clans use old disciplines, of course. Some vampire will have very
special powers, reflecting what they clan can (or cannot do), for sure ! but
they promised us all those new disciplines and i'm sure we won't be
disappointed.
(snip)
> We know that there is scant room in the set for presenting ten whole new
> disciplines in the traditional fashion. Do the math yourself.
If they introduce only 7 or 8 *useful* cards for each discipline, that's not
so bad ! remember there was only 10 quietus cards in Ancient Hearts !
remember that the new bloodlines vampires are here to support existing clans
and create new variations.
reyda
Reyda
> I am not particularly eager to see contesting of vampires as a strategy.
I
> would, however, like to see more contesting of Titles. I do not think,
for
> instance, that we need to introduce into the game any more Cities for
vampires
> to be Princes of. If more Princes are introduced to the game, they can
re-use
> old cities, and contest eachother's titles if both come into play.
Hey !! that's a very neat idea !
legbiter
>
> mattgreen
>
>
> "....so the yellow guys...."
> "The Ventrue antitribu."
> "....um, yeah, they've got; Eyeball, Patio...and what else?"
> "Fortitude"
> "??"
> "Mountain"
> "Ah. And the purple guys...."
> "Which purple guys?"
> "The ones with Wave"
> "Yes, the Lasombra do have Obtenebration, i'm with you- go on"
> "Yeah them. They have; Wave, Patio and Fist right?"
> "Right"
> "So which ones have; Patio, Eyeball and Pentagram then?"
> "Don't worry about them."
This brought tears to my eyes, and i'm sure to many another.
Thank-you, Matt! i've just been trying to explain the special
abilities of the brown guys with paw, mountain and curly-wurly, for
whom, of course, patio is the much-neglected fourth discipline.
James Coupe
>>If more Princes are introduced to the game, they can
>re-use
>> old cities, and contest eachother's titles if both come into play.
>
>Hey !! that's a very neat idea !
One simple addition would be to have more cross-over of the Praxis and
Diocese, since they contest.
Matt Latham
> >Kudos to the Malkavian antitribu that beat all these successful
> >Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them
> >into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a
> >shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not
> >available to commoners.
Noal McDonald, Prince of Detroit, has a nifty Derange deck with 12 of the
suckers. He traded heavily for them, which anyone can do. You can get a
booster box of Jyhad for $10. In that box you'll probably get a freak drive
and one other big rare like a Form of Mist or Flesh of Marble or such...
maybe even a Temptation of Greater Power. You could probably trade each of
those for two deranges, like Noal did.
You can generally make anything you want if you are patient enough. Whether
the current tournament scene encourages such creativity or discourages it is
a different discussion all together.
Matt
Denizen of the Sewers of Detroit (the power behind the throne)
Halcyan 2
>> >Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them
>> >into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a
>> >shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not
>> >available to commoners.
Mr. Latham, I believe you misquoted me. The above statement was Andrew's and I
was merely refuting it.
>Noal McDonald, Prince of Detroit, has a nifty Derange deck with 12 of the
>suckers. He traded heavily for them, which anyone can do. You can get a
>booster box of Jyhad for $10. In that box you'll probably get a freak drive
>and one other big rare like a Form of Mist or Flesh of Marble or such...
>maybe even a Temptation of Greater Power. You could probably trade each of
>those for two deranges, like Noal did.
>
>You can generally make anything you want if you are patient enough. Whether
>the current tournament scene encourages such creativity or discourages it is
>a different discussion all together.
>
>
Exactly my point but with a concrete example instead of just theory. Thank you
Mr. Latham. =)
Halcyan 2
Pat Ricochet
>> The game needs time to re-adjust.)
>
> I agree. And our bank accounts need time to re-adjust as well! =)
Hear, hear. If White Wolf could take anything from their fan base, it
should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more
complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an
8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle.
("LOT, LOT, LOT" triple emphasis as borrowed from Mr. Coupe's "really,
really, really." Something to take special note of, since both of us
usually just use appropriate adjectives, but English is failing in
describing how much it means to us, and how much we think it means to the
game.)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
Nystulc
>20010924153620...@mb-ma.news.cs.com...
>> Reyda wrote:
>>
>> >No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced
>with
>> >their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning.
>>
>> I believe you are mistaken. Please provide a quote.
>
>S Wieck said that in a interview made by a european player months ago.
Again: Quote Please! Said that? Said WHAT? Did he say "Spiritus will be
Spiritus and clans will be introduced with their own particular disciplines"?
That means little to me, even if he did say it.
-- John Whelan
Nystulc
All perfectly consistent with WoD's conception of what an "antitribu" is. It
is simply a clan member who has an alternate sect allegiance. Nothing prevents
them from changing sides.
It is also easy to make Lucita a Sabbat in the card game. Consistent with the
WoD reality, if she becomes Sabbat, she is just plain Lasombra.
-- John Whelan
Pat Ricochet
> WoD reality, if she becomes Sabbat, she is just plain Lasombra.
Easy or straightforward? AFAIK, there aren't any cards that say "This
vampire is now Sabbat." She can't Clan Impersonate to Lasombra to do it;
she didn't *change* clans, so she wouldn't *change* sect. (I think)
If you Derange her, she isn't "just plain Lasombra," she's "just plain
!Malk," and if she removes it, she'd revert to card text, I assume.
About all I can see is to Clan Impersonate to something, and then Clan
Impersonate again to Lasombra.
But, does that even work?
Name: Clan Impersonation
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 blood
Requires a ready vampire. +1 stealth action.
Choose a clan when this card is played. Put this card on the acting vampire.
This vampire is considered to be of the chosen clan instead of his or her
original clan (if any). All options available to the chosen clan are now
open to the acting vampire. This card may be burned by the vampire as an
action.
What happens if Lucita Clan Impersonates to, say, Ventrue (she's
changing clans, but keeping with purple =). She is now "considered to be a
member of the" Ventrue, "instead of" the Lasombra. She's now Camarilla,
too.
Now, *without* burning the first CI, she plays CI again (next turn, if
there's NRA), choosing Lasombra. By card text, she's now "considered to be
a member of" the Lasombra "instead of her ORIGINAL clan." Well, her
"original clan" is Lasombra. Or is it Ventrue?
Also, to really muck it up, BOTH cards remain (by card text) on Lucita.
Do they both take effect? Is she just playing both sides, and pretending to
be allied to both, and having "all options available" of both clans
available to her? Or does the most recent effect (becoming Lasombra)
override the previous action (being Ventrue).
The wording is tricky, because she doesn't ever actually *change* clans,
by card text. There is the "obvious intent" answer, but I'm curious what
the "legal" answer is. Scott?
Oh, and back to the original question? If she does this, is she
considered Sabbat? (and only Sabbat? =)
LSJ
>
> > It is also easy to make Lucita a Sabbat in the card game. Consistent with the
> > WoD reality, if she becomes Sabbat, she is just plain Lasombra.
>
> Easy or straightforward? AFAIK, there aren't any cards that say "This
> vampire is now Sabbat." She can't Clan Impersonate to Lasombra to do it;
> she didn't *change* clans, so she wouldn't *change* sect. (I think)
Correct.
> If you Derange her, she isn't "just plain Lasombra," she's "just plain
> !Malk," and if she removes it, she'd revert to card text, I assume.
No. She'd change clans to Lasombra, and therefore her sect would be (remain)
Sabbat.
> About all I can see is to Clan Impersonate to something, and then Clan
> Impersonate again to Lasombra.
That would also work.
She could also Clan Impersonate and then burn the CI.
> What happens if Lucita Clan Impersonates to, say, Ventrue (she's
> changing clans, but keeping with purple =). She is now "considered to be a
> member of the" Ventrue, "instead of" the Lasombra. She's now Camarilla,
> too.
Right.
> Now, *without* burning the first CI, she plays CI again (next turn, if
> there's NRA), choosing Lasombra. By card text, she's now "considered to be
> a member of" the Lasombra "instead of her ORIGINAL clan." Well, her
> "original clan" is Lasombra. Or is it Ventrue?
Mostly this is "who cares?" :-).
But the card text is referring to Ventrue.
> Also, to really muck it up, BOTH cards remain (by card text) on Lucita.
> Do they both take effect? Is she just playing both sides, and pretending to
> be allied to both, and having "all options available" of both clans
> available to her? Or does the most recent effect (becoming Lasombra)
> override the previous action (being Ventrue).
Most recent applies. [LSJ 28-MAR-2000]
> The wording is tricky, because she doesn't ever actually *change* clans,
> by card text. There is the "obvious intent" answer, but I'm curious what
> the "legal" answer is. Scott?
If she's one clan and then becomes another, that's changing clans.
> Oh, and back to the original question? If she does this, is she
> considered Sabbat? (and only Sabbat? =)
Yes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Ian Lee
>>> The game needs time to re-adjust.)
>>
>> I agree. And our bank accounts need time to re-adjust as well! =)
>
> Hear, hear. If White Wolf could take anything from their fan base, it
>should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more
>complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an
>8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle.
I'd agree that V:TES is one of the more complicated CCGs, at least from a deck
construction angle. However, it seems to me that a lot of the reason it takes
longer for players to digest new cards is simply not being used to having new
card to digest.
When Bloodlines comes out, my expectation is that a lot of players will go
"whoa, new cards again, I gotta stop screwing around and get up to speed". The
focus has been on trying to do something innovative with existing cards. Focus
will likely shift to trying to abuse new cards once it becomes normal to have
new cards.
Emmit Svenson
be feasible? Or do you think the vampires and disciplines be too
fragmentary to build into decks without cards from other sets?
Pat Ricochet
>> should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more
>> complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an
>> 8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle.
>
> I'd agree that V:TES is one of the more complicated CCGs, at least from a deck
> construction angle. However, it seems to me that a lot of the reason it takes
> longer for players to digest new cards is simply not being used to having new
> card to digest.
Temptation of Greater Power has been around a loooong time, while new
sets WERE still being made. Didn't really hit the tournament scene till,
what, a year or two ago?
Case studies aside, I somewhat disagree. I concur that *some* of the
reason players take longer to digest new cards is that they had the time
(before now). But I wouldn't say "most of," and I wouldn't even say "a lot
of." If you want to back that statement up, I'll be happy to debate it,
but other than that, we'll have to agree to disagree.
> When Bloodlines comes out, my expectation is that a lot of players will go
> "whoa, new cards again, I gotta stop screwing around and get up to speed".
You mean, take up the rabid Magic-player munchkin banner of trying to
win with cards before they get errata'd and banned?
> The
> focus has been on trying to do something innovative with existing cards.
> Focus
> will likely shift to trying to abuse new cards once it becomes normal to have
> new cards.
Abuse? Well, big difference being that V:TES isn't designed to HAVE
broken, highly abuseable cards, and Sabbat War and Final Nights have shown
WW and LSJ to be capable of doing it right. (Unlike, say, the Ancient
Hearts team, which I wonder if they even listened to their playtesters, with
RTI and Elisabetta Romano in one set.)
If playing interesting decks and tweaking and playing kooky combos to
plumb the depths of the game looking for a clever and original and effective
deck is "screwing around," then, yes, I'd rather HAVE time between sets and
"screw around," rather than "focusing on abusing new cards," and thereby,
forgetting about the old cards.
Ok, but what about WW making money?
Monetarily, I'm not going to spend more than X amount of money on cards
every year; I'm not going to buy N boxes of every set that WW produces.
They get my money one way or the other, really. But they can keep their
costs down by producing less sets per year, and increase the quality of
their product by having more time to produce each set, and not having to
rush it to the market (avoiding gotchas like the FN typos, etc.)
Now, that's just me, but I don't think I'm the only one who has a finite
amount of money for entertainment, but an uncountable craving for gameplay.
(If the average buyer has a near-infinte amount of money, but a finite want
of gameplay, then they want N boxes of each set that's released, and no
more. I don't think this is a good depiction of the target market, so
rapid-release isn't the way to go.)
If the sets come out fast enough that I have to cough up more money than
I was before just to keep up with the Jonses, then I'll quit buying, and
probably quit playing.
Either way, as a consumer or as a player, I think this 6-month cycle is
bad. Gimme 8 months; time to try ideas, and time to save money.
Robert Goudie
news:B7D665FA.776E%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu...
> >> Hear, hear. If White Wolf could take anything from their fan base, it
> >> should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more
> >> complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an
> >> 8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle.
> Either way, as a consumer or as a player, I think this 6-month cycle is
> bad. Gimme 8 months; time to try ideas, and time to save money.
I can't swear to it 'cause I don't have the email anymore but I'm pretty sure
that Steve Wieck said recently that they were shifting to an 8-month cycle.
-Robert
--
Robert Goudie
Chairman, V:EKN
rob...@vtesinla.org
Jarkko Tapani Hyysalo
: "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
: news:20010924164245...@mb-md.aol.com...
:> >shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not
:> >available to commoners.
: Noal McDonald, Prince of Detroit, has a nifty Derange deck with 12 of the
: suckers. He traded heavily for them, which anyone can do. You can get a
: booster box of Jyhad for $10. In that box you'll probably get a freak drive
: and one other big rare like a Form of Mist or Flesh of Marble or such...
: maybe even a Temptation of Greater Power. You could probably trade each of
: those for two deranges, like Noal did.
Well, maybe not that easy. Here in Finland is only one place, as far as I
know, that got Jyhad. Starters only and they cost about 9 USD a piece.
Potomac box price is 33 USD. Minimum order 100 USD, shipping rates to Finland
start from 16.50 USD (for 1 lbs.). Add taxes, which are added to the whole
price of the packet, including postage and shipping (very rough estimation
would be about 20%).
I know there are other places, possibly cheaper than Potomac, but this is
just a small reminder, that it isn't that cheap for everyone and everywhere.
I've been drooling for Deranges for a long time... And propably will be
out of saliva before I can even see the first Derange :(
I have even difficulties getting Confusions, because here where I live no
one has got any Sabbat cards. Well that might be easy to trade in Succubus
Club or otheer places...
: You can generally make anything you want if you are patient enough. Whether
: the current tournament scene encourages such creativity or discourages it is
: a different discussion all together.
Well I guess I have to be patient to get my 8-12 Deranges.
And sorry about the rant :)
Cheers,
Jarkko
: Matt
Jason Liang
From: Mike Nudd <mi...@vekn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: Bloodlines page up.
> mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk (mgreen02) wrote in message
news:<a346f9cb.0109...@posting.google.com>...
> > For all to see at:
> > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html
> >
>
> I fear we will have to label
> Bloodlines an 'advanced' set, specifying non-Bloodlines demos and
> intro games to avoid making things more confusing for observers and
> newcomers.
I think you're right! Magic (and L5R tried to adopt this too) has a "basic"
set with regular mechanics and puts all the new mechanics in expansion
packs. For instance, there is no trample is the basic Magic set right now.
It looks like Sabbat War and the new Camarilla will be basic sets, because
those are sets that new players will need to get the majority of their cards
from (even if they do play bloodline clans they will need dom, for, pot,
aus, pre, etc... cards) and FN and Bloodlines will be advanced player sets.
It looks like WW takes the existing player base into major consideration
whenever they make decisions about VtES. In other words, they are thinking
"what would the players who have been true to the game for the past five or
six years" would want, and give less consideration into bringing new players
into the game. Steve didn't pick up VtES as much to get new players and make
profit as much as rewarding players who have been true to this game with
cards that were much underprinted. I think WW has done a great job in both
designing for the old players and also the great precons to help with new
players.
>
> One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the
> number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines
> set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other
> disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite
> antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included?
> And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? I suspect there
> will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu
> either? If these elements are not to be included in this or future
> cardsets then why not? It all seems a bit slapdash and half-hearted to
> me. (Obviously I have not been privy to the playtest info, nor WW's
> future release schedule. Can Steve, Todd or LSJ address my fears?)
>
>
Someone at my store has a theory that Gangrel will be out of Cam by Cam
edition and replaced by the !Assamites, which he says is what happened in
the actual storyline (I knew that the Gangrel had left Cam, but I hadn't
know that they were replaced by the Assamites!). Certainly that Cam Assamite
from FN could be seen as a foreshadow to this. Imagine an Assamite Justicar,
and Assamites calling Archon and Anathema votes! Poor poor Sabbat!
BH SPOILER
From what I've read, the BH are all dead and disbanded (Book of
Storyteller's Secrets revised, as well as Ends of Empire and KoTE).
Certainly if there are True Brujah and Nagaraja vampires in Bloodlines, they
are probably former members of the BH and BH no more! The BH was destroyed
when Enoch in the Underworld was destroyed by a relic Nuke bomb. So the
great library of the True Brujah in Enoch are no more sob sob. I wonder if
True Brujah can go back in time in the Underworld? Anyway, also according to
the books the BH was greatly discouraged when the Ravnos Methuselah awoke
and completely ignored them. Ancient vampires with existential crises! So BH
is most likely dead in the storyline. But we'll always wonder who the Ahrilu
truly were...
Cheers,
Janus, childe of Chronus
5th Generation True Brujah
AKA Asahina Daisan, Crane Seer
> Regards,
>
> Mike Nudd
> VEKN Prince of London
Ben Peal
> Delicate equilibrium? The last time I looked at this, the Ventrue
> were way out in front of the other clans (whose performance was far
> from uniform). Looking at the decks in the final of this weekend's EC
> championship, they include...
Looking at the decks in the finals of the North American Championship,
they include exactly zero decks with Ventrue.
It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans
due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack
of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right
now are Arika and Hostile Takeover.
- Ben Peal, Prince of Boston
fu...@mindstorm.com
Ben Peal
> I'm sure that even now White Wolf is more than a bit embarrassed with WotC's
> Blood Brother Ambush and Gargoyle Slave, both of which seem to be making less
> and less sense especially with Bloodlines now.
I suspect that White Wolf is ecstatic that the game has succeeded
enough that such a problem could be deemed important. :)
jeroen rombouts
"Ben Peal" <fu...@optical.mindstorm.com> wrote in message
news:bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com...
If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use:
1)Vote: obviously
2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros
3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn
4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-)
strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used:
1) S&B: Bounce and bloat
2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage
prevention
3) Vote: more votes + presence
4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude
unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino.
Halcyan 2
>I was before just to keep up with the Jonses, then I'll quit buying, and
>probably quit playing.
Exactly. Which is precisely the reason why I quit "that other game." A junior
high-schooler just doesn't have the financial resources (even with allowance!)
to keep up at the pace WotC ran the game. And since each new expansion had
better, more powerful cards, it quickly became a lesson in futility.
In hindsight, I probably should have done what some of my friends did and sold
my cards at the time (I would have made a killing). But, sentimental bastard
that I am, I've kept all of my cards. (In fact, I was so sentimental that I
bought and kept my brother's cards when *he* quit the game...).
(OT) So, back in the day when M:tG cards were actually worth something (and
before ultra-cheap eBay auctions were available), I was proud enough to own an
Unlimited Illusionary Mask, a Legends Palladia Mors (boy was I pissed with the
reprints in Chronicles!), 3 Vesuvan Doppelgangers, and one or two of each of
the dual lands. And of course, my prize piece was my collection of 23 or so
Savannah Lions! (boy are they cute!). And I also had like 4 Savannahs for the
Savannah Lions to live on, but that's a different story... ;)
Halcyan 2
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans
> > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack
> > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right
> > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover.
>
> *blink* *blink* Troll?
I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's
attention. ;)
> If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use:
>
> 1)Vote: obviously
Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in
most any deck.
> 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros
6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior
Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much
help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't
even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but
nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn.
> 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn
Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth
is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck,
and it stops Bonding bleeds cold.
Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking
to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible
stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card
when you can't be blocked.
> 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-)
They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However,
intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only
covers so much.
> strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used:
>
> 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat
Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only
doing it at 1 stealth.
> 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage
> prevention
Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly
because of the Fortitude.
> 3) Vote: more votes + presence
What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political
action to succeed in the first place?
> 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude
> unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino.
The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects.
Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck.
Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame.
Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet.
What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention.
I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed
results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block
the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less
painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different
results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately.
Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game
better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet...
At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As
such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have
the delivery systems required for them. You're either hoping that
Arika comes to the rescue (in which case, just play an Inner Circle
Member deck) or you're hoping the Hostile Takeovers pay off.
Andrew S. Davidson
> At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
> the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
> is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As
> such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have
> the delivery systems required for them.
That's theory - the winning deck archive indicated that the Ventrue
won more tournaments than any other clan and by no small margin. Your
point may be valid but it could be like baseball where "big hitters
strike out a lot".
Andrew
Orpheus
period !
I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom,
but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't !
--
Orpheus
http://cypheranima.free.fr
news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone
audio...@yahoogroups.com
"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> a écrit dans le message news:
227DA5F43104B503.3A697134...@lp.airnews.net...
Tim Eijpe
>Jeroen Rombouts:
>> Ben Peal wrote:
>> > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans
>> > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack
>> > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right
>> > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover.
>>
>> *blink* *blink* Troll?
>
> I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's
> attention. ;)
Hmmnnn this IS interesting as if I recall correctly the ventrue won the most
tournaments and their discipline combination makes tem look like the
strongest
clan in the game...You got my attention:)
>> If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use:
>>
>> 1)Vote: obviously
>
> Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in
> most any deck.
Right you are. Intercept stops votes dead cold. But intercept by itself does
not oust. Votes do, as does plain simple non stealth bleed. And that is
where
Seduction comes in...more of that later.
>
>> 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros
>
> 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior
> Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much
> help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't
> even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but
> nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn.
Yup, no cool combat for the Ventrue..but not all clans should be able to do
all well. The Nosferatu have no discipline bleed actions, are they a weak
clan?
>> 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn
>
> Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth
> is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck,
> and it stops Bonding bleeds cold.
i think that with all of these Tzimisces running around you either have to
use
a whole lot of stealth, or no stealth at all. Again seduction is your card
here but as you state below Change of target is pretty usefull too.
> Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking
> to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible
> stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card
> when you can't be blocked.
>
>> 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-)
>
> They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However,
> intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only
> covers so much.
No intercept. neither do the Brujah, Assamites, City !Gangrel or the
Followers
of Set. Does this make the clans bad?? No. The Ventrue can get 2 intercept
from their princes, and if you want the Ventrue to have intercept you'll
have
to go for other permanents. But no intercept capability can hurt in the long
run...
>> strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used:
>>
>> 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat
>
> Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only
> doing it at 1 stealth.
True. But you'll have to be creative with this, or use a silver tongue. I
have
found that when playing ventrue most people will not block the fifth
tradition, but wait for the really damaging vote/bleed...Moreover who want's
to block that 5th anyway?? Not your prey, hell he want me to bloat like
crazy
so that i will not be ousted...
>
>> 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage
>> prevention
>
> Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly
> because of the Fortitude.
>> 3) Vote: more votes + presence
>
> What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political
> action to succeed in the first place?
Right this is where the ventrue are weakest. And when they do get blocked
they
cannot retaliate in combat. Again Seduction and the sleeping mind at
inferior
will help out as will change of target, kiss of Ra etc..
If your votes get blocked..so be it, live with it or add some stealth to
your
ventrue deck.
>> 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude
>> unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino.
>
> The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects.
> Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck.
true, but the ventrue do have a great one shot-kill ability with their
disciplines. And it speeds up the deck FAST. With majesty and FD you are
able
to do more actions, and the untap will run out eventually. I tend to simply
bleed, have them wake and either CoT, Majesty or FD. Bleed with te next
vampire. If they do not block, slap down the conditioning and make them
think
again about not blocking.
> Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame.
>
> Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet.
>
> What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention.
> I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed
> results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block
> the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less
> painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different
> results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately.
Better go with the lasombra then i would suggest, or the EuroBrujah.
> Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game
> better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet...
>
> At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
> the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
> is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As
> such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have
> the delivery systems required for them. You're either hoping that
> Arika comes to the rescue (in which case, just play an Inner Circle
> Member deck) or you're hoping the Hostile Takeovers pay off.
But this also goes for the Toreador and the Brujah. It all comes down to
seating order and opposing decks. If they have intercept, bugger, just bleed
away at zero stealth. If they do not, hey have a ball.
Tim
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jeroen rombouts
"Ben Peal" <fu...@optical.mindstorm.com> wrote in message
news:bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com...
> > Ben Peal wrote:
> > > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans
> > > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their
lack
> > > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces
right
> > > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover.
> >
> > *blink* *blink* Troll?
>
> I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's
> attention. ;)
>
> > If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use:
> >
> > 1)Vote: obviously
>
> Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in
> most any deck.
I doesn't, with all the untap you can still bleed for one at 0 stealth
>
> > 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros
>
> 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior
> Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much
> help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't
> even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but
> nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn.
Trap
Torn signpost + undeath strenght = 3 damage
Superior Mettle
Round 2 identical
combat worthy enough to make a bleed and bruise deck. (Maybe add some skill
cards and Hand of Conrad)
>
> > 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn
>
> Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth
> is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck,
> and it stops Bonding bleeds cold.
I' m guessing you're playing in a high intercept environement. Around here
(at the moment, at least) most people play either with a lot of intercept or
none at all.
>
> Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking
> to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible
> stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card
> when you can't be blocked.
>
> > 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-)
>
> They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However,
> intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only
> covers so much.
>
> > strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used:
> >
> > 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat
>
> Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only
> doing it at 1 stealth.
>
Voter captivation works too.
> > 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for
damage
> > prevention
>
> Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly
> because of the Fortitude.
>
> > 3) Vote: more votes + presence
>
> What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political
> action to succeed in the first place?
>
you can. Bleed, get blocked, untap, equip or s/t like that, get blocked,
freak drive, vote. They can't keep on blocking. You 've only used one
Ventrue, they had to untap 2-3 times.
> > 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude
> > unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino.
>
> The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects.
> Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck.
yup, but a lot of decks die when they sit next to an intercept-heavy deck.
Brujah & Torries also have no stealth, so they're weak clans?
>
> Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame.
>
> Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet.
>
> What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention.
> I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed
> results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block
> the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less
> painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different
> results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately.
Nosferatu or/and Brujah !
>
> Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game
> better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet...
>
> At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
> the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
> is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept."
Their answer should be: "hope they don't have +1 intercept every time i act
and lots of untap" It's simple really, against a deck with light intercept,
you keep acting on +1 stealth. Against a heavy intercept deck, do a lot of 0
stealth bleeds.
Jeroen
Emmit Svenson
> It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans
> due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack
> of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right
> now are Arika and Hostile Takeover.
> fu...@mindstorm.com
You may want to start smoking a higher grade of crack. :-)
Every clan has weaknesses, and the Ventrue, strong as they are, are no
exception. But intercept isn't a insurmountable barrier to a clan that
has Majesty and Freak Drive in its arsenal. "I bleed. You block?
Majesty, I untap. I vote. You block? Immortal Grapple? Okay, I prevent
the damage and Freak Drive. I Fourth Tradition..." So long as they
have approximately as many untaps as you have wakes, blocking the
Ventrue is a losing battle.
And that's before you bring Kiss of Ra into the equation.
But hey, keep arguing otherwise. Maybe you'll convince enough people
to cut the contesting down for me.
Shaun McIsaac
> > 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-)
> They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However,
> intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only
> covers so much.
2nd trad + locations, and if you want, an NGS. Any Camarilla clan can
generate 3~4 intercept if they've got the princes/justicars in the
crypt for it.
> > 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage
> > prevention
> Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly
> because of the Fortitude.
Heh. Rotschreck, and the tremere, assamites, ravnos and gangrel in
general can rip through fortitude. Animalism for environmental
damage, Quiteus for unpreventable damage, and Thaum for non-damage
(theft + blood to water) and unpreventable (B.fury). A deck that
wants to fight you doesn't have a real issue with fortitude, and if
they think S:CE is a problem, all the above clans can either Psyche or
Rotschreck (except those poor ravnos heh). Ventrue can't manuever
well and don't strike for more than 1 generally. Fighting is going to
get you killed, though the fortitude can save you a few times.
> What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention.
> I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed
> results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block
> the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less
> painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different
> results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately.
The problem with bruise and vote, or bruise and anything, is that you
are ultimately going to have to bash them down. The threat of blowing
up their vampires is going to let you get them down to a lot pool
count, but they won't let you oust them -- better to throw a minion in
the way of the final bleed/vote, than to be ousted. Generally
speaking, your deck will give your prey a choice, and the choice is
almost always going to be to their benefit and your detriment. So you
either:
A) Exterminate all or nearly all of their minions (difficult to do to
1 player, never mind half a table).
B) Sit down and wait, hoping your grand prey will beat up your prey or
at least put up such a strong resistance, that they're both weak and
you clean up.
C) lose =)
> At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
> the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
> is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As
> such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have
> the delivery systems required for them.
Yup. They can win, so long as the intercept is all or nearly all on
the right side of the table. They have an ass-easy time getting vote
lock (pre., tower, and now your untitled vamp has gained you 5+
votes), and an easy time getting DOM for deflections. It's a matter
of getting 5ths and votes to not be blocked, no small task. But when
you do, I would dare say that they sweep up better than anyone.
Ben Peal
In the past two years worth of tournaments on the Lasombra's site,
7 of 75 tournaments were won by Ventrue decks. Only two of those
decks came from America, and only within the past four months. So,
Ventrue decks went more than a year without winning a (publicly
posted) tournament in America. Two of the remaining five decks were
by Rob Treasure, picking on the same Portsmouth group with his Hostile
Takeover/Parity Shift deck.
As for the Ventrue winning more tournaments than any other clan, I'm
really not sure how much weight that statement has, since the trend in
decks on the tournament-winning site has been discipline-based decks
rather than clan-based decks.
At any rate, if your local metagame typically doesn't have even light
intercept, then a Ventrue deck is going to eat the tournament alive.
In America, however, it's rare that you'll be able to get away with
+1 stealth, as light intercept is rampant. Mike Nilson won with the
Ventrue in June of this year by retrofitting Obfuscate to his vampires.
Alex Broadhead
fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) wrote in message news:<bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com>...
> Jeroen Rombouts:
> > Ben Peal wrote:
> > > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans
> > > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack
> > > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right
> > > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover.
> >
> > *blink* *blink* Troll?
>
> I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's
> attention. ;)
I guess I'll bite as well, as I made a similar - though much less
controversial - assertion in the first !Ventrue Newsletter. I think
it's worth adding some commentary from the antitribu perspective, as,
while most people would consider your comment to be troll in relation
to the Camarilla Ventrue, the same people would consider it a truism
when applied to their Sabbat cousins.
> > If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use:
> >
> > 1)Vote: obviously
>
> Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in
> most any deck.
This is certainly my experience with the !Ventrue so far. I remember
a time, not long ago, when +1 stealth would get all sorts of things
done. No more. In my last six games with !Ventrue, I've sat as
predator to: a Gangrel animalism/poke interceptor, a Toreador +
protean auspex/poke interceptor, a Tzimisce interceptor, and an
Assamite + auspex interceptor (!?!). As if that weren't enough, my
predators, while rarely interceptors per se, routinely pop media
outlets and/or Mr. Winthrop and/or Sport Bikes, and often seem to have
significant combat... Maybe I'm just unlucky?
A corollary, however: light intercept alone is easy to include, but
also easy to exhaust, assuming you have multiple minions/threatening
actions. My favorite ploy is to ask to borrow my prey's Rumor Mill
during my predator's turn... Any _real_ interceptor will also have
lots of untap.
> > 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros
>
> 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior
> Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much
> help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't
> even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but
> nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn.
There are 3 !Ventrue who have fo/po: Vincent (fo/po, vote enhancing
special), Kyle (fo/PO, Cardinal), and Lazverinus (FO/PO, +2 strength,
Archbishop). This might be an interesting deck concept for the
!Ventrue, though perhaps it would just degenerate into just another
Lazverinuts deck.
The Island of Yiaros seems pretty silly to me, even for the Cammy
Ventrue; I'd be looking for Disarms. (But then I'm _already_ looking
for Disarms without much luck...)
> > 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn
>
> Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth
> is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck,
> and it stops Bonding bleeds cold.
Well, Dominate Kine + Bonding is +2 stealth, but thankfully it's hard
to get a hold of a lot of Dominate Kine...
And again, you troll for intercept with the first (couple actions) if
you're a Camarilla Ventrue. After all, you're just going to S:CE and
untap and take the action you really wanted to accomplish... This
seems to me to be the biggest advantage that the Camarilla Ventrue
have over the Sabbat Ventrue: Majesty. (The second biggest
advantage, or perhaps it's a tie, being the 2nd and 5th Traditions.)
> Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking
> to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible
> stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card
> when you can't be blocked.
Bingo. Which is where the !Ventrue actually have an advantage, as you
will hopefully see when I get my next Newsletter out.
> > 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-)
>
> They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However,
> intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only
> covers so much.
I find the Ventrue to be quite good at the intercept part of
intercept. Majesty and 2nd Trads both provide untap, which is
arguably more important than intercept to an interceptor. And, of
course, the 2nds provide intercept as well. The reasons you don't see
Ventrue interceptors are 1) intercept + prevent/do nothing is a weak
strategy (as you point out), and 2) they do so many other things
better.
> > strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used:
> >
> > 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat
>
> Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only
> doing it at 1 stealth.
Actually, the bouncing locally has really rolled off. I keep sitting
between decks that can't bleed for more than 1 except maybe once or
twice. I've been discarding Deflection more than I've been using it.
I think this is due both to the rise of combat and to the threat of
Perfect Clarity. I'd loooove to see a stealth bleeder as my predator.
As you say though, the bloat at zero (Recruiting Party) or +1 stealth
has been getting blocked every frickin' time, even Boons for 2, by
both prey and predator.
> > 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage
> > prevention
>
> Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly
> because of the Fortitude.
Without Majesty, I've been struggling to stay afloat against combat.
If I include too much prevent, I've no chance of doing anything else,
and inevitably won't need it. Too little, and I never have it in hand
when I get caught.
> > 3) Vote: more votes + presence
>
> What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political
> action to succeed in the first place?
To be fair, Jeroen was talking about defending against voting. This
can be accomplished by having votes yourself, presence, or dominate,
all of which the Ventrue have, and most of which the !Ventrue now
have, though the latter were pretty short on votes for quite some
time.
> > 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude
> > unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino.
>
> The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects.
> Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck.
Right. But for non-dedicated, casual to medium intercept, these sure
help.
> Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame.
The best thing possible for dealing with heavy intercept, as long as
it doesn't include fortitude, which is most of them. It's threat
value is great, unless it's not, as you point out.
> Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet.
It's useless against dedicated intercept. +2 stealth is just an
excuse to cycle another card or a reason to use the superior version
of Enhanced Senses. It's a good supplement to casual to medium,
though. Somehow I never seem to draw mine...
> What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention.
> I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed
> results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block
> the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less
> painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different
> results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately.
There's an awful lot of ways to block without combat, S:CE, maneuver,
dodge, or prevent one, and there are increasingly large amounts of
ways to make strikes unpreventable in return... I wouldn't generally
expect Dawn Ops to be that threatening to any deck that can handle
light combat, which is _all_ decks these days.
> Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game
> better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet...
Right, thought this is not terribly strong in a vote deck, as your
predator might decide to block things as well...
> At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
> the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
> is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As
> such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have
> the delivery systems required for them. You're either hoping that
> Arika comes to the rescue (in which case, just play an Inner Circle
> Member deck) or you're hoping the Hostile Takeovers pay off.
Far too true, and far more true for !Ventrue. (My first outing as a
!Ventrue, BTW, which was one of the two so far that _wasn't_ as
predator to intercept, was as prey to a Hostile Takeover deck that
just raped me, especially as I wasn't drawing any of the light
intercept I was packing. I have also sat as prey to an ineffective
Ventrue for whom Arika eventually came to the rescue as well - in the
game with the Toreador interceptor as prey...) Of course, I've found
that even +2/+3 stealth isn't enough (see future deck listings in the
Newsletter for how), which is why I'm beginning to think that I'm just
plain cursed...
Hope that helps,
Alex
Reyda
"Shaun McIsaac" <smci...@onesourcecorp.com> a écrit dans le message news:
8f507d2e.01092...@posting.google.com...
> fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) wrote in message
news:<bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com>...
> A deck that
> wants to fight you doesn't have a real issue with fortitude, and if
> they think S:CE is a problem, all the above clans can either Psyche or
> Rotschreck (except those poor ravnos heh)
"Before range is chosen i'll fetch a cool weapon in my library -look, a
flamethrower =) "
"Close range ? I'll song in the dark for you"
"Close range ? hands for 1, with wolf claws -yes, lotsa Ravnos have protean
nowadays..."
"close range ? Burning wrath ! -yes, lotsa Ravnos have potence nowadays..."
now who is unable to rotschreck ??
reyda
Shaun McIsaac
> > Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in
> > most any deck.
> Right you are. Intercept stops votes dead cold. But intercept by itself does
> not oust. Votes do, as does plain simple non stealth bleed. And that is
> where Seduction comes in...more of that later.
Non stealth bleed, even with seduction, is pretty unlikely to be a
serious threat. Just block. The generally expensive (playable)
ventrue are unlikely to signficantly outnumber their prey, esp. since
the ventrue's predator may be attack the ventrue pool with means that
are more difficult to stop.
> Yup, no cool combat for the Ventrue..but not all clans should be able to do
> all well. The Nosferatu have no discipline bleed actions, are they a weak
> clan?
Low caps + obf/OBF + laptops + hacks. Who needs disciplines?
> >> 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn
> > Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth
> > is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck,
> > and it stops Bonding bleeds cold.
>
> i think that with all of these Tzimisces running around you either have to
> use a whole lot of stealth, or no stealth at all. Again seduction is your card
> here but as you state below Change of target is pretty usefull too.
The other dom clans are all better at doing seduction based bleed...
even the beleaguered Tremere.
> >> 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-)
> > They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However,
> > intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only
> > covers so much.
> No intercept. neither do the Brujah, Assamites, City !Gangrel or the
> Followers of Set.
Assamites have aus as a minor discipline.
Not being able to generate +1 intercept is pretty bad, though they can
2nd.
> >> strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used:
> >> 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat
> > Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only
> > doing it at 1 stealth.
> True. But you'll have to be creative with this, or use a silver tongue. I
> have
> found that when playing ventrue most people will not block the fifth
> tradition, but wait for the really damaging vote/bleed...Moreover who want's
> to block that 5th anyway?? Not your prey, hell he want me to bloat like
> crazy
> so that i will not be ousted...
Wtf? Your prey wants to block, so that you cannot tap and get more
vamps to whack him with. Who cares if you're ousted? He won't get
your VP if hes dead b.c he let his predator go ape shit with bloat.
Your predator has to block to prevent the bloat from making you
impossible to oust. Btw, this is one of the reasons intercept can be
so crucial. You lose for free when someone sets up a dumb combo like
bloat.
> true, but the ventrue do have a great one shot-kill ability with their
> disciplines. And it speeds up the deck FAST. With majesty and FD you are
> able
> to do more actions, and the untap will run out eventually. I tend to simply
> bleed, have them wake and either CoT, Majesty or FD. Bleed with te next
> vampire. If they do not block, slap down the conditioning and make them
> think
> again about not blocking.
No real reason for them not be able to block, unless they're going
heavily offensive and tapping out. You can seduce one and even then,
the seduced vamp still has the ability to bounce/TC.
> But this also goes for the Toreador and the Brujah. It all comes down to
> seating order and opposing decks. If they have intercept, bugger, just bleed
> away at zero stealth. If they do not, hey have a ball.
Too easy to deal with, and both the tories and the brujah are better
fighters in the case of a block.
You mention Seduction too much, when the other clans make better use
of it (not just giovanni, though that is even worse). If A is better
than B, why play B at all? The Ventrue can do multi things (bleed,
vote, bloat...) but its rare that you'll have room enough in a deck to
do more than a (very) few things well. And doing it at 1 stealth
doesn't count as doing anything particularly well.
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
> > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
> > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As
> > such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have
> > the delivery systems required for them.
>
> Yup. They can win, so long as the intercept is all or nearly all on
> the right side of the table. They have an ass-easy time getting vote
> lock (pre., tower, and now your untitled vamp has gained you 5+
> votes), and an easy time getting DOM for deflections. It's a matter
> of getting 5ths and votes to not be blocked, no small task. But when
> you do, I would dare say that they sweep up better than anyone.
Oh, sure. Like I said, they carry a very heavy payload, and when they're
actually able to deliver it, it's frightening. In terms of raw payload,
however, nothing tops weenie Dominate bleed.
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > > If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use:
> > >
> > > 1)Vote: obviously
> >
> > Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in
> > most any deck.
>
> I doesn't, with all the untap you can still bleed for one at 0 stealth
Defensively, you can untap and block at 0 intercept.
> > > 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros
> >
> > 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior
> > Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much
> > help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't
> > even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but
> > nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn.
>
> Trap
> Torn signpost + undeath strenght = 3 damage
> Superior Mettle
> Round 2 identical
How do you manage to draw 3 combat cards each round of combat?
Never mind that S:CE stops it cold, and Carrion Crows/Aid From Bats
decks will slaughter it.
> > > 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn
> >
> > Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth
> > is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck,
> > and it stops Bonding bleeds cold.
>
> I' m guessing you're playing in a high intercept environement. Around here
> (at the moment, at least) most people play either with a lot of intercept or
> none at all.
My environment has included most of the eastern seaboard of the US, as
well as the wide variety of players at GenCon 2001. The trait I find
most consistent among American players is the very typical use of at
least light intercept. It's rare for them to not use any intercept at
all.
Why? Because we got sick of Ventrue decks and developed strategies
against them. Now we don't see them anywhere nearly as often. Case in
point: Prior to Mike Nilson's winning Ventrue deck in June 2001, you
have to go back as far as October 1999 to find a winning Ventrue deck in
America on the Lasombra's site. All it took was the simple and generally
useful strategy of putting a little bit of intercept in your deck.
> > > strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used:
> > >
> > > 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat
> >
> > Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only
> > doing it at 1 stealth.
>
> Voter captivation works too.
Voting is also at 1 stealth, which we've already deemed inadequate.
> > > 3) Vote: more votes + presence
> >
> > What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political
> > action to succeed in the first place?
>
> you can. Bleed, get blocked, untap, equip or s/t like that, get blocked,
> freak drive, vote. They can't keep on blocking. You 've only used one
> Ventrue, they had to untap 2-3 times.
You've had to play a card to untap each time. The defender has had to
play a card to untap each time, unless he's reduced a bleed (Telepathic
Counter, Ecstasy, etc.) or Deflected a bleed.
Not to mention that you're assuming that you haven't been sent to torpor
after being blocked.
> > > 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude
> > > unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino.
> >
> > The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects.
> > Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck.
>
> yup, but a lot of decks die when they sit next to an intercept-heavy deck.
> Brujah & Torries also have no stealth, so they're weak clans?
Ah, but they (the Brujah especially) have something similar to stealth:
offensive combat disciplines.
> > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked
> > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer
> > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept."
>
> Their answer should be: "hope they don't have +1 intercept every time i act
> and lots of untap" It's simple really, against a deck with light intercept,
> you keep acting on +1 stealth. Against a heavy intercept deck, do a lot of 0
> stealth bleeds.
Hoping they don't have +1 intercept and even a mild amount of untap is
subjecting yourself completely to the mercy of the metagame. A good deck
designer should do better than that.
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans
> > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack
> > of stealth and offensive combat cards.
>
I also don't think Archon Investigation is very good. ;)
> Every clan has weaknesses, and the Ventrue, strong as they are, are no
> exception. But intercept isn't a insurmountable barrier to a clan that
> has Majesty and Freak Drive in its arsenal. "I bleed. You block?
> Majesty, I untap. I vote. You block? Immortal Grapple? Okay, I prevent
> the damage and Freak Drive. I Fourth Tradition..." So long as they
> have approximately as many untaps as you have wakes, blocking the
> Ventrue is a losing battle.
Seems to be an even battle, given the same number of vampires on
both sides, and the same number of untap effects. The source of
instability is then the expected lack of even distribution of these
cards.
Also, keep in mind that the defender isn't (or at least shouldn't be)
expecting to block everything - just enough that he can buy enough
time for his offense to do its job against his prey.
> And that's before you bring Kiss of Ra into the equation.
May the winds of the metagame blow favorably for you. ;)
Ben Peal
> Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can win,
> period !
Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well?
I contend that they don't.
> I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom,
> but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't !
I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of
Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't
mean dead.
I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too.
Thomas Pichler
> Either way, as a consumer or as a player, I think this 6-month cycle is
> bad. Gimme 8 months; time to try ideas, and time to save money.
>
Not to go about nitpicking, but it was 7 1/2 months from SW to FN already...
granted, it'll only be six from FN to BL, but FN wasn't that huge a set and BL might
be smaller still, and you can't really fault WW from trying to yank out BL by
December so that maybe they have a slight chance to get some of the Christmas
shopping cake...
Also, increasing the time between sets isn't the only way of making the game cheaper
- even shifting from 1/3 each to just 30% rares, 30% uncommons and 40% commons would
be a significant step in that direction - in fact, if set size were to be exactly
120 cards, just that would make all the difference between being theoretically able
to complete the set with one box of boosters and there being just no way.
Thomas
Flux
> > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can
win,
> > period !
>
> Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well?
> I contend that they don't.
PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each other
rather reasonably. Obviously, if they had Dom/For/Obf they'd be a lot
better, just imagine a Malkavian S&B that can survive most combat and has a
few more votes too.
> > I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf /
Dom,
> > but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't !
>
> I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of
> Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't
> mean dead.
No, but if they're rushing you with potence your vampire will be empty, then
you have to hunt. So you just wasted two actions and 1 blood to get a
vampire back, so that next turn you can do it again. You're just helping the
combat decks do what they do best... :-P
> I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too.
Obf/Aus will get you killed real fast around here. Few people are playing
stealth right now, and there's a lot of combat. And what use is getting all
your actions through (or blocking +5 stealth actions) if you can't do
anything else? At least with For/Dom you can prevent them from blocking (and
no amount of intercept will help them there), and when you get an action
through it's likely to be a bleed for 6. And you can hold off their rushes
for quite a while too.
Flux
pallando
"Thomas Pichler" <tom.p...@aon.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3BB4418E...@aon.at...
> Pat Ricochet wrote:
>
snip
- in fact, if set size were to be exactly
> 120 cards, just that would make all the difference between being
theoretically able
> to complete the set with one box of boosters and there being just no way.
>
> Thomas
this information is outdated. bloddlines will contain somewhere between 160
and 180 cards from what i have heard.
considering that there might as well again be R and R2 i believe you will
need a minimum of 2 boxes to get 1 full set.
pallando
legbiter
> Do you folks think that Bloodlines pre-release draft tournaments will
> be feasible? Or do you think the vampires and disciplines be too
> fragmentary to build into decks without cards from other sets?
i think we HAVE to have pre-release events, so we must think how to do
these, given what we know about the set.
i want to propose the following, mainly to the UK community but others
are welcome to adopt or ignore the idea as they see fit.
i suggest that someone, eg me, create Foundation decks for each clan,
using say 9 vampires and a 45-card library - all commons with maybe a
few proxies for useful/essential uncommons like WWEF or Forced
Awakening. These Foundation decks would be well-balanced vis-a-vis one
another, and fairly toolboxy. For your entry fee you get a random
foundation deck and some BL boosters. You would have to bring at least
12 opaque sleeves to keep your crypt in [because some of the vampires
in at least some of the decks will be Jyhad-backed]. From this you
build your deck according to the usual rules, ie minimum library size
60 cards [maximum 90], minimum crypt 12 cards. i would allow people to
swap the decks and also to swap cards from their boosters, probably
via Bernie Bresnahan's Michigan Draft system. At the end of the
tournament you could give me back the foundation deck or keep it just
as you prefer, and in either case you would keep the BL cards you had
bought, of course. Thus, at a stroke, i would relieve some of the
burden on the bookshelves where i keep my VTES card-folders.
Pat Ricochet
> "Thomas Pichler" <tom.p...@aon.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:3BB4418E...@aon.at...
>> Pat Ricochet wrote:
>>
> snip
> - in fact, if set size were to be exactly
>> 120 cards, just that would make all the difference between being
> theoretically able
>> to complete the set with one box of boosters and there being just no way.
>>
>> Thomas
Please quote responsibly; that isn't something I "wrote", and my name
isn't Thomas. =) (that, or I apparently said "snip" =)
> this information is outdated. bloddlines will contain somewhere between 160
> and 180 cards from what i have heard.
>
> considering that there might as well again be R and R2 i believe you will
> need a minimum of 2 boxes to get 1 full set.
You snipped too much; Thomas was suggesting an alteration to the rarity
distribution system:
>- even shifting from 1/3 each to just 30% rares, 30% uncommons and 40% commons
that would have less total rares to go in the rare slots, making it
easier for those players who feel they "gotta get them all." =)
But, even if they did that and kept the R1/R2 idea, yeah, one box
probably wouldn't do it.
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
Derek Ray
wrote:
>> I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom,
>> but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't !
>
> I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of
> Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't
> mean dead.
And this is the primary reason pure combat has so much trouble. Beating
down a single vampire doesn't mean much; it comes back very quickly. A
lot of times "key" vampires are "key" because of some inherent ability,
or because of something you've put on them (Prince, Palatial Estate,
Guardian Angel, take your pick)... so when you get right down to it, it
doesn't matter how much blood the guy has. It's just whether he's ready
or not.
Temptation of Greater Power doesn't say "requires a FULL Justicar".
> I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too.
Wow, I dunno. That's a rough comparison. I have a couple lovely
obf/AUS decks that work extremely well, so I know better than to
underrate -that- combo. But while DOM/FOR is lacking stealth, it's also
got the advantage of only needing to get away with things once, in
general.
Take a good, basic idea like the following:
a bunch of DOM/for and DOM/FOR vampires
a couple FOR skill cards
a few Blood Dolls
a bunch of Governs, to be played mostly at superior (pool gain)
a bunch of Conditionings/Foreshadowing Destruction
a few Bondings, to be saved for surprise value
some Seductions, to use on untapped vampires
plenty of Change of Target, to burn people's Wakes/intercept
some Restorations, for stuff to do once you've Changed
a small pile of prevent cards
some Wake/Deflection, and a few Pulling Strings/Kindred Coercion
two Day Operations
Stir well, and play. All it needs to get away with is one good
Conditioned bleed to get your attention; and it should be able to get
out four reasonably-sized minions pretty quickly. If you're heavy on
intercept, you'll be able to afford blocking all its "innocuous"
actions, but if you're just light intercept, you might end up saving all
your stuff to stop the bleeds... which is kind of a losing battle.
DOM/FOR is still quite strong. But in an odd way, it supports Ben's
point as well; I avoid the "low stealth" problem by simply not even
TRYING for stealth, and assuming I'll be blocked. That lack of stealth
is a real weakness of theirs; it's not that you get through all the
OTHER actions, it's that you have trouble getting through that KEY
action.
--
Derek
AGITATOR, n. A statesman who shakes the fruit trees of
his neighbors -- to dislodge the worms.
Cameron
unless we use the Queen of sleaze. So what. The Ventrue are still a
beating(tm).
> serious threat. Just block. The generally expensive (playable)
> ventrue are unlikely to signficantly outnumber their prey, esp. since
> the ventrue's predator may be attack the ventrue pool with means that
> are more difficult to stop.
Yes they are, with nye on unbeatable rush defence (2nd/Obediance
backed with SoS) they can minion tap guys to 3, and bring out more
vampires. As for pool damage, FOR/DOM/2nd beats combat, Titles beat
vote, Deflection/2nd beats bleed, what mythical way of pool damage are
they using? Granted no Ventrue deck can be lined with tons of these,
but 2nd Obediance is a good start, with deflections as a back up. It
also cycles well, second and obediance hunts if you need to cycle.
Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per
metagame considerations)
> Low caps + obf/OBF + laptops + hacks. Who needs disciplines?
OBF is a discipline.
> You mention Seduction too much, when the other clans make better use
> of it (not just giovanni, though that is even worse). If A is better
> than B, why play B at all? The Ventrue can do multi things (bleed,
> vote, bloat...) but its rare that you'll have room enough in a deck to
> do more than a (very) few things well. And doing it at 1 stealth
> doesn't count as doing anything particularly well.
excuse me, but he mentions Seduction to much? Lol. Lets use your own
logic now. If A is better than B, don't use B, ever. The Ventrue are
the best voters in the game. They have PRE and DOM on low and mid cap
vampires, 5 Princes with reasonably tight disciplines (7,7,8,9,10),
the best IC member, and a good Justicar.
As for the one stealth comment: tons of actions in the game happen at
one stealth, or no stealth, and work out just fine. If your predator
is an intercept deck, bleed for 3 (you are using Goven the Unalinged
in this DOM toting, big vamp using deck, right?) at zero stealth.
Watch as he jams on Intercept, runs out of prevent and untap, and
dies. Toss in a Kiss of Ra or two and a Grave robbing to add insult
to injury. Will this always work? No, of course not. Not having
access to additional stealth is the only weakness given to the
Ventrue, it doesn't make them bad, it makes them balanced.
If the deck I'm describing sounds unfocused, that's because it is.
The Ventrue Law Firm is toolboxy, because it has to be.
As for a pure bloat deck behind me, I'm always surprised that people
have a problem with one as their predator. Yes in about 27 transfers
the deck might have out 6 big vampires barring predator issues, but so
what, in that time I'll have gotten an oust or two and be ready to go
on his predator, giving me lots of VP's.
Cameron
Andrew S. Davidson
>i want to propose the following, mainly to the UK community but others
>are welcome to adopt or ignore the idea as they see fit.
>
>i suggest that someone, eg me, create Foundation decks for each clan,
I'd rather use a deck of my own. Here's what I did for a recent
pre-release event for the latest Shadowfist set, Shaolin Showdown.
This was booster-only and I had a limited supply of boosters. The
format was:
* open constructed decks but containing a minimum of 10 cards from the
new set.
* each player was given two boosters from the new set when they
arrived. This gave them at least 20 cards to choose from.
* there was about an hour of free trading in which players could swap
cards to get something from the new set that they could sensibly put
into the deck they had brought with them. I called this the "Market
Square" format after a card from the new set. Maybe the Vampire
equivalent would be "Succubus Club"?
Now Shadowfist only has 7 faction/clans and 3 talent/disciplines so it
might be easier for players to mix in a splash of new cards from a
limited pool. But players can bring more than one deck to use as the
foundation and so can select whichever goes best with the Bloodline
cards that they get.
Anyway, my point is that I'd prefer to be starting with a deck of my
own. That way, I have some idea of what to look for in the new cards
and the focus is only on the new set (not a bunch of obsolete Jyhad
cards). And the constraint forces players to use the new cards so
that you'd get to see them in action too.
What you might do to ensure an even spread is make this a Clan War
type of event. If the Bloodlines go with their related clans then
maybe players could book seats to play as the relevant major clan.
No-one seems to understand the exact way this works though. I'm
amazed to hear players rehashing the arguments about symbols vs
keywords etc. - aren't you all playtesters?
Andrew
Alex Broadhead
> Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can win,
> period !
> I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom,
> but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't !
Alright! That's the spirit! Now send me those winning do/fo based
!Ventrue decks so that we can prove to the world that the Ventrue
Antitribu are the best damn clan out there!
Please?
Alex Broadhead
!Ventrue Newsletter Editor
BernieTime
> against them. Now we don't see them anywhere nearly as often. Case in
> point: Prior to Mike Nilson's winning Ventrue deck in June 2001, you
> have to go back as far as October 1999 to find a winning Ventrue deck in
> America on the Lasombra's site. All it took was the simple and generally
> useful strategy of putting a little bit of intercept in your deck.
Hey Ben,
Technically my deck at Origins 2001 probably would qualify
as a Ventrue deck as the crypt is 50% Ventrue.
That's all I had to say :-)
Bernie Bresnahan
Prince of Lansing, MI.
Emmit Svenson
matter how fragmentary the Bloodlines cards are, all the players in
the tournament will be in the same situation of having crazy crypts
and libraries, so maybe the experience would be an enjoyable novelty.
On the other other hand (what am I, a Blood Brother?), it would take a
long time to trade and build with nothing but wholly unfamiliar cards.
Though I understand playtesters are supposed to keep quiet about their
experiences, maybe Whitewolf could release them from their vows of
silence to the extent of allowing them to voice their opinions about
whether a straight draft will be practical.
LSJ
> whether a straight [BL] draft will be practical.
It will not. The cards are not sufficiently diverse to allow a BL-only
format to work. Everyone would be on equal footing, true. But that's
only because everyone's decks would be equally unworkable.
The object of the prerelease is to let people *play* with the cards, not
to sit there with the cards in their hands and wish that they could play.
The topic of pre-release event format is currently being discussed on
the Prince list (with whom the events will be coordinated - so it seems
like the natural forum for the discussion).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Frederick Scott
> The topic of pre-release event format is currently being discussed on
> the Prince list (with whom the events will be coordinated - so it seems
> like the natural forum for the discussion).
Depends. If the issue is around the logistics of organizing a tournament
then it would be. I sort of perceive that this has more to do with what
kind of format would be worthwhile and fun to play. If so, then shouldn't
WW take some input from all players rather than just princes?
Unfortunately, with 11-card booster packs available only, it might take a
fair amount of cards to overcome the dissonance of the various unrelated
bloodlines. I might suggest a sealed deck tournament with something like
8 Bloodlines boosters and a FN or SW precon starter at random.
Fred
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > Orpheus wrote:
> > > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can
> > > win, period !
> >
> > Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well?
> > I contend that they don't.
>
> PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each other
> rather reasonably.
Neither discipline helps a lot with getting the other discipline to work
well.
> > I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of
> > Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't
> > mean dead.
>
> No, but if they're rushing you with potence your vampire will be empty, then
> you have to hunt. So you just wasted two actions and 1 blood to get a
> vampire back, so that next turn you can do it again. You're just helping the
> combat decks do what they do best... :-P
In my experience, it can take combat decks quite a while to get through
all of your minions, by which time they've probably had to start dealing
with their predator.
And don't forget Swallowed By the Night...
> > I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too.
>
> Obf/Aus will get you killed real fast around here. Few people are playing
> stealth right now, and there's a lot of combat.
> And what use is getting all your actions through (or blocking +5 stealth
> actions) if you can't do anything else?
Take a look at my Wonderwall deck, which won Ritual Challenge: New Jersey
this year. It's in the Lasombra's deck archive. It's an Obf/Aus weenie
deck, that uses Telepathic Counter, Telepathic Misdirection, and assorted
intercept for defense while creating a wave of Embrace weenies. After a
while, you can just shove a bunch of Obf weenies up their nose.
> At least with For/Dom you can prevent them from blocking (and no amount of
> intercept will help them there), and when you get an action through it's
> likely to be a bleed for 6.
This is what I call "reckless bleeding". Others call it "Daring the
Deflection".
Pat Ricochet
>> the Prince list (with whom the events will be coordinated - so it seems
>> like the natural forum for the discussion).
>
> Depends. If the issue is around the logistics of organizing a tournament
> then it would be. I sort of perceive that this has more to do with what
> kind of format would be worthwhile and fun to play. If so, then shouldn't
> WW take some input from all players rather than just princes?
Don't several(all?) of the Princes also read and/or post to this list?
Isn't anything posted here represented that way?
Or, if you really want to make a difference, you can always contact your
local prince. =)
Shaun McIsaac
> All right, the abuse needs to stop. Yes we can't generate stealth
> unless we use the Queen of sleaze. So what. The Ventrue are still a
> beating(tm).
They have bombs to drop on ppl, just a matter of getting off the
runway and dodging those nasty SAMs :)
> As for pool damage, FOR/DOM/2nd beats combat,
It beats crappy combat, maybe. My suspicion is that few ppl here
really know decent combat; it's not intuitive.
> Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per
> metagame considerations)
2nd is good, the rest are situational.
> > Low caps + obf/OBF + laptops + hacks. Who needs disciplines?
>
> OBF is a discipline.
My line above was RE: bleed disciplines.
> excuse me, but he mentions Seduction to much? Lol. Lets use your own
> logic now. If A is better than B, don't use B, ever. The Ventrue are
> the best voters in the game. They have PRE and DOM on low and mid cap
> vampires, 5 Princes with reasonably tight disciplines (7,7,8,9,10),
> the best IC member, and a good Justicar.
Bleah on the justicar (inferior for? come on), and part of being a
good voter means successful vote actions, not just referendums that
may or may not happen.
> If the deck I'm describing sounds unfocused, that's because it is.
> The Ventrue Law Firm is toolboxy, because it has to be.
>
> As for a pure bloat deck behind me, I'm always surprised that people
> have a problem with one as their predator. Yes in about 27 transfers
> the deck might have out 6 big vampires barring predator issues, but so
> what, in that time I'll have gotten an oust or two and be ready to go
> on his predator, giving me lots of VP's.
1) He's bringing of 2-4 votes each, this makes it nearly impossible
for you to vote
2) It doesn't take him that long to set up (unobstructed), unless he's
doing something wrong.
3) Using the time of no predation to hammer through your prey and
grandprey is tricky. Chances are your prey won't hit the grand prey
very hard if you use the early boost you are getting to full effect
(and that's if theres much of a boost at all).
Flux
> > Ben Peal wrote:
> > > Orpheus wrote:
> > > > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can
> > > > win, period !
> > >
> > > Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well?
> > > I contend that they don't.
> >
> > PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each
other
> > rather reasonably.
>
> Neither discipline helps a lot with getting the other discipline to work
> well.
That's what's the FOR is for. I just meant that DOM is great for bleeds and
deflections, and PRE is good for votes and bleeds. They overlap some, but
they're generally quite nice together. Though a case could be made regarding
Mind Numb as helping the DOM work well too.
Let's compare to PRO CEL, a somewhat extreme example. Both give maneuvers,
both give presses, and the additional strikes won't be quite as usefull if
you're sending your oponent to torpor on the first strike... (I'm not saying
there's no way to make them work together, but there's a lot of overlap and
some effects are useless together).
> > No, but if they're rushing you with potence your vampire will be empty,
then
> > you have to hunt. So you just wasted two actions and 1 blood to get a
> > vampire back, so that next turn you can do it again. You're just helping
the
> > combat decks do what they do best... :-P
>
> In my experience, it can take combat decks quite a while to get through
> all of your minions, by which time they've probably had to start dealing
> with their predator.
Depends on the size (and number) of your minions, and the type of combat
deck you're dealing with.
> And don't forget Swallowed By the Night...
I don't. It falls in with 'metagame considerations' though, any combat deck
can prepare itself for it. Fake Out is free.
> > > I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too.
> >
> > Obf/Aus will get you killed real fast around here. Few people are
playing
> > stealth right now, and there's a lot of combat.
>
> > And what use is getting all your actions through (or blocking +5 stealth
> > actions) if you can't do anything else?
>
> Take a look at my Wonderwall deck, which won Ritual Challenge: New
Jersey
> this year. It's in the Lasombra's deck archive. It's an Obf/Aus weenie
> deck, that uses Telepathic Counter, Telepathic Misdirection, and
assorted
> intercept for defense while creating a wave of Embrace weenies. After a
> while, you can just shove a bunch of Obf weenies up their nose.
That's likely due to the 'weenie effect', and not the obf aus per se.
You could try the same with dom weenies: Deflections and some intercept
locations for defense, GtU and Embrace to get more vampires, then mass bleed
with Seduction to help. Put For on top of that and you can also avoid rush
combat and make Embrace-Force of Will-Threats combos.
I'm not saying Obf Aus is a weak combination, I've built decks around it
myself too, but I would never rate it above Dom For.
> > At least with For/Dom you can prevent them from blocking (and no amount
of
> > intercept will help them there), and when you get an action through it's
> > likely to be a bleed for 6.
>
> This is what I call "reckless bleeding". Others call it "Daring the
> Deflection".
I wasn't refering to Daring the Dawn specifically: Seduction and Sleeping
Mind can work too. Anyway, it's only reckless if your prey packs
deflections. While it is the most effective bleed defense, not everyone can
do it. And even then, you use Contigency Planning to burn through their
Deflections and avoid killing your gran-prey. And if your prey packs
Deflections, so might your gran-prey: you might end up bleeding your
predator, which can even be usefull. :-)
One local player (Frederico Conde) would often bleed for 6 everytime he
could. He said he didn't mind risking the AI, and deflections would
eventually run out. Turns out he was more often right than not, he often
swept tables at tournaments even when he had more than one vampire burned to
an AI or FoW/whatever.
Flux
Ian Lee
>fair amount of cards to overcome the dissonance of the various unrelated
>bloodlines. I might suggest a sealed deck tournament with something like
>8 Bloodlines boosters and a FN or SW precon starter at random.
Open boosters. *Then*, *choose* precon. Part of the strategy might be to try
and not pick a common precon to avoid contesting problems, assuming certain
precons would be more desirable than others. Course, part of putting together
a set and assigning rarity can be trying to balance limited play.
Frederick Scott
That's an interesting suggestion. The only drawback I can see is how to allow
for a run on one or two of the more popular precons. If you have 17 players, in
theory they might all choose the same precon, necessitating keeping 17 of every
type of precon on hand to allow for all the possibilities. I think you would have
to roll for order of choice or something, which then has the drawback that the
folks who choose early may have a tremendous advantage over those who choose last.
("Let's see, Ventrue or Assamite, Assamite or Ventrue.....or just run from the
room screaming perhaps?")
Fred
Cameron
>
> It beats crappy combat, maybe. My suspicion is that few ppl here
> really know decent combat; it's not intuitive.
Alright, but I play the Ventrue consistantly in a playgroup that
includes James Hamblin, if that helps you judge the caliber of rush
combat I've faced with these guys. If not, search for his name in
google. Untap/Obediance, backed by Skin of Steel beats combat. Even
Assamites.
>
> > Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per
> > metagame considerations)
>
> 2nd is good, the rest are situational.
Obediance is never situational in a Ventrue Law Firm, someone will be
younger, and hunting, or equiping, or bleeding. It's insanely
cycleable. Deflection less so, but bouncing a bleed for one is still
one more pool I have. The other cards depend on how much and of what
type the intercept you see is.
> > excuse me, but he mentions Seduction to much? Lol. Lets use your own
> > logic now. If A is better than B, don't use B, ever. The Ventrue are
> > the best voters in the game. They have PRE and DOM on low and mid cap
> > vampires, 5 Princes with reasonably tight disciplines (7,7,8,9,10),
> > the best IC member, and a good Justicar.
>
> Bleah on the justicar (inferior for? come on), and part of being a
> good voter means successful vote actions, not just referendums that
> may or may not happen.
Who uses his for as a primary discipline in a Vote Deck? It's his
backup combat defence, and it only sucks against Celerity. And his
special is good.
> 1) He's bringing of 2-4 votes each, this makes it nearly impossible
> for you to vote
If I don't care about him, chances are I'm not a voter. And there are
other types of Bloat too.
> 2) It doesn't take him that long to set up (unobstructed), unless he's
> doing something wrong.
To be scarry he needs vampires, say 4. each requires 8-11 transfers.
That's say, 37 transfers. Even with Zillah and Info Hwy, I've got some
time.
> 3) Using the time of no predation to hammer through your prey and
> grandprey is tricky. Chances are your prey won't hit the grand prey
> very hard if you use the early boost you are getting to full effect
> (and that's if theres much of a boost at all).
But if I have a good deck, chances are I can do it. Just because he's
playing bloat doesn't mean I'm stupid. :-P
Cameron
David Cherryholmes
"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3BB502BC...@netcom.com...
> Ian Lee wrote:
> > Open boosters. *Then*, *choose* precon. Part of the strategy might be
to try
> That's an interesting suggestion. The only drawback I can see is how to
allow
> for a run on one or two of the more popular precons. If you have 17
players, in
> theory they might all choose the same precon, necessitating keeping 17 of
every
> type of precon on hand to allow for all the possibilities. I think you
would have
> to roll for order of choice or something, which then has the drawback that
the
> folks who choose early may have a tremendous advantage over those who
choose last.
> ("Let's see, Ventrue or Assamite, Assamite or Ventrue.....or just run from
the
> room screaming perhaps?")
The last precon I attended in Charolette, NC was conducted the same way,
randomly assigning numbers, then choosing in order; I assume that's how
most of them are done. What I would suggest is that "clumping" on a few
popular decks might not be as much of an issue, since one of the main points
lauded for Bloodlines is to "open up new strategies". Giovanni, Lasombra,
and Tzimisce would still probably be the picks of choice, but maybe there
will be some cards in the new set that will bring some of the
less-competitive clans up to par. Drafting first, then picking starters
seems like an excellent idea, though.
David Cherryholmes
Prince of Durham
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal:
> > Flux wrote:
> > > PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each
> > > other rather reasonably.
> >
> > Neither discipline helps a lot with getting the other discipline to work
> > well.
>
> That's what's the FOR is for.
I'm not keen on sending my vampires to torpor every time I want to get
an action through.
> I just meant that DOM is great for bleeds and deflections, and PRE is good
> for votes and bleeds. They overlap some, but they're generally quite nice
> together. Though a case could be made regarding Mind Numb as helping the
> DOM work well too.
There's certainly the Mind Numb + Majesty + Seduction decks. They're
too card-intensive for my tastes, though. I'm more a fan of interchangeable
parts than waiting for combos.
> > And don't forget Swallowed By the Night...
>
> I don't. It falls in with 'metagame considerations' though, any combat deck
> can prepare itself for it. Fake Out is free.
Swallowed By the Night certainly isn't a catch-all, but it can help get
you out of the occasional jam. Given that it's already a stealth card,
I don't feel that it really costs me anything to include it in my decks.
> > Take a look at my Wonderwall deck, which won Ritual Challenge: New
> > Jersey this year. It's in the Lasombra's deck archive. It's an Obf/Aus
> > weenie deck, that uses Telepathic Counter, Telepathic Misdirection, and
> > assorted intercept for defense while creating a wave of Embrace weenies.
> > After a while, you can just shove a bunch of Obf weenies up their nose.
>
> That's likely due to the 'weenie effect', and not the obf aus per se.
> You could try the same with dom weenies: Deflections and some intercept
> locations for defense, GtU and Embrace to get more vampires, then mass bleed
> with Seduction to help.
It doesn't work the same, though. I've found that I've needed the
Obfuscate to be able to pull off the Embrace actions, plus the resulting
hunting actions, as my opponents have tended to be fearful of seeing a
weenie horde build up. The Obfuscate also helps with weenie bleeding,
and it really makes it easier to rescue torporized weenies (part of the
combat frustration tactic).
I like Auspex in the deck, as it's a more general purpose defense
discipline than Dominate. I don't like relying on the media outlets as my
only sources of intercept, so I'll throw in a few Eagle's Sights,
Spirit's Touches, and Precognitions. Telepathic Counter also saves some
blood on your vampires (an issue with weenies...Deflection is clearly
better in other decks).
I also really like the cheap vampires with Obfuscate and/or Auspex.
It's nice to be able to say to Normal, "Hey, go do that", and he can
go out and generate the stealth he needs and do what he's told.
> Put For on top of that and you can also avoid rush combat and make Embrace->
> Force of Will-Threats combos.
Could be neat...
> > This is what I call "reckless bleeding". Others call it "Daring the
> > Deflection".
>
> I wasn't refering to Daring the Dawn specifically: Seduction and Sleeping
> Mind can work too. Anyway, it's only reckless if your prey packs
> deflections. While it is the most effective bleed defense, not everyone can
> do it.
However, a very significant number of players out there do pack bleed
bounce. It was the bucket brigades of bleed bouncing I saw in tourneys
that led me to build the Short Leash Bleed deck.
> And even then, you use Contigency Planning to burn through their
> Deflections and avoid killing your gran-prey.
Don't waste your time with Contingency Planning. Use Change of Target.
> One local player (Frederico Conde) would often bleed for 6 everytime he
> could. He said he didn't mind risking the AI, and deflections would
> eventually run out. Turns out he was more often right than not, he often
> swept tables at tournaments even when he had more than one vampire burned to
> an AI or FoW/whatever.
In my experience, the player doing the Deflecting is typically coming
out ahead. Yeah, the Deflections will eventually run out, but how much
damage have you caused your grand-prey in the process? I'm not particularly
interested in helping my prey's cause.
Flux
Ben Peal wrote:
> Flux wrote:
> > I just meant that DOM is great for bleeds and deflections, and PRE is
good
> > for votes and bleeds. They overlap some, but they're generally quite
nice
> > together. Though a case could be made regarding Mind Numb as helping the
> > DOM work well too.
>
> There's certainly the Mind Numb + Majesty + Seduction decks. They're
> too card-intensive for my tastes, though. I'm more a fan of
interchangeable
> parts than waiting for combos.
I always thought of Mind Numb as a great defensive card too. You can use it
on your predator and make him take some heavy bleeds, and probably lay off
you for a while. :-)
> Swallowed By the Night certainly isn't a catch-all, but it can help get
> you out of the occasional jam. Given that it's already a stealth card,
> I don't feel that it really costs me anything to include it in my decks.
Majesty also has a dual use, and Tap&Bleed decks are likely to include it
anyway.
I played a weenie Ventrue bleed deck a few times, I had no stealth
whatsoever so I knew I'd enter combat a lot and included For cards
accordingly. I didn't want to use Change of target because I wanted to tap
the blockers, so they replaced stealth cards, and were usefull against
combat decks too.
> I like Auspex in the deck, as it's a more general purpose defense
> discipline than Dominate. I don't like relying on the media outlets as
my
> only sources of intercept, so I'll throw in a few Eagle's Sights,
> Spirit's Touches, and Precognitions. Telepathic Counter also saves some
> blood on your vampires (an issue with weenies...Deflection is clearly
> better in other decks).
... but Dominate helps you bleed for more. :-)
> I also really like the cheap vampires with Obfuscate and/or Auspex.
> It's nice to be able to say to Normal, "Hey, go do that", and he can
> go out and generate the stealth he needs and do what he's told.
You'll have to find him something worthwhile to do though, and bleeding for
1 is not very impressive. :-)
> However, a very significant number of players out there do pack bleed
> bounce. It was the bucket brigades of bleed bouncing I saw in tourneys
> that led me to build the Short Leash Bleed deck.
Metagame.
We had that here a couple of years back in tournaments, but now it's much
more combat focused.
Even then, the metagame shifted from Stealth&Bleed to Tap&Bleed a few times,
since that's not as vulnerable to Deflections (you don't kill your gran-prey
as often).
Flux
Shaun McIsaac
> > It beats crappy combat, maybe. My suspicion is that few ppl here
> > really know decent combat; it's not intuitive.
> Alright, but I play the Ventrue consistantly in a playgroup that
> includes James Hamblin, if that helps you judge the caliber of rush
> combat I've faced with these guys.
Hrm, well I've done searches on that name for 'deck', 'combat', and
both. Most of what was there was old, and it largely was not well
constructed, which is either because:
A) new cards have come in invalidating old decks
or
B) your combat isn't as good as ours.
From the times it seems that only Final Nights and perhaps Sabbat War
weren't available, and neither one added cards that seem missing from
those decks.
> > > Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per
> > > metagame considerations)
> > 2nd is good, the rest are situational.
> Obediance is never situational in a Ventrue Law Firm, someone will be
> younger, and hunting, or equiping, or bleeding. It's insanely
> cycleable. Deflection less so, but bouncing a bleed for one is still
> one more pool I have. The other cards depend on how much and of what
> type the intercept you see is.
If you *are* going for the really hi cap Ventrue, you are openning
yourself that much more to high cap abuse. Plus there isn't whole
hell of a lot of gain off of 2nd trad / Obedience a hunt, and if
they're bleeding playing VLF opens you to that much more abuse.
Seduction/Call or Seduction/Elder type forces you to deflect at zero
stealth (making CoT much easy for the bleeder), and Pentex tends to
give high caps fits. Even if you can immediately tap it down to zero,
you have a useless minion that can't be rescued for 1-3 turns. This
harms the 7 caps since neither Info Hwy nor Z Valley will get them out
in a turn, and leaves you wide open to getting bleed mercilessly. You
just won't have that many deflections in your opening 10-15 cards,
when you can't take actions or block to cycle. Also, when pentex
comes out the Ventrue are perhaps the worst clan in the game at
getting it off; making the act unblockable just torpors a different
vampire. Toreador bleed designs utilizing this (hi Steph) rape the
Ventrue pool fast enough to make the "error" largely unrecoverable.
> > Bleah on the justicar (inferior for? come on), and part of being a
> > good voter means successful vote actions, not just referendums that
> > may or may not happen.
> Who uses his for as a primary discipline in a Vote Deck? It's his
> backup combat defence, and it only sucks against Celerity. And his
> special is good.
The inferior for kills the use of Kiss of Ra even more so. This
doesn't make him a bad vamp per se; it's just a joke that him and
Angus have the same amount of for as Ulugh Beg and less than Cardano
(neither of which would normally want to use it). As for his special,
I think it sucks; doesn't work on titles, doesn't work on him, and 1/2
the time contesting is going to be cross table anyways. Compare that
to a built-in Eagle sight or an extra discard, which are almost always
going to be useful right off the bat.
> Cameron