Re: Rules Team Rulings 02-DEC-2004
LSJ
news:opsieac3...@news.chello.hu...
> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:54:50 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> > news:opsid9o9...@news.chello.hu...
> >> Does S:CE protect from the opponent's S:CE?
> > No.
>
> What kind of backward crap is that?
Your question lacks meaning. Please elaborate if
you had some behind the question.
This kind of crap is the "oh, let's follow the
stuff printed in the rulebook" kind.
Dodge protects the dodger from the opponent's strike. [6.4.5]
S:CE has no such provision, other than ending combat
before other (non-S:CE) strikes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
LSJ
news:opsid9o9...@news.chello.hu...
> Does S:CE protect from the opponent's S:CE?
No.
--
LSJ
news:dXIrd.132626$5K2.128964@attbi_s03...
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes, even aggressive S:CE
effects
> > (like Catatonic Fear).
> What about Meld with the Land?
Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes.
> If a minion Dodges a Meld with the Land, do they untap?
Jozxyqk
> Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes, even aggressive S:CE effects
> (like Catatonic Fear).
What about Meld with the Land?
Daneel
> "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message
> news:dXIrd.132626$5K2.128964@attbi_s03...
>> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> > Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes, even aggressive S:CE
> effects
>> > (like Catatonic Fear).
>> What about Meld with the Land?
>
> Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes.
>
>> If a minion Dodges a Meld with the Land, do they untap?
>
> No.
Does S:CE protect from the opponent's S:CE?
--
Bye,
Daneel
LSJ
for constructed deck tournaments for 30 days (i.e., until January 1, 2005).
Reversals in this RTR:
Mask of a Thousand Faces now "notices" if a minion is using inherent
stealth.
Damage resolution doesn't preclude other effects.
Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes, even aggressive S:CE effects
(like Catatonic Fear).
ERRATA
======
Rötschreck (Rotschreck) is only usable during strike declaration when a
strike that deals aggravated damage targets a vampire (may still be played
after both minions have announce their strikes). In particular, it is not
usable for effects that resolve when played (which includes most non-strike
effects), like Pulled Fangs under a Dawn Operation.
RULINGS
=======
A minion's inherent stealth (e.g., Muaziz, Jost Werner, and even Hesha
Ruhadze when hunting) counts as an effect (since the stealth is "applied"
when that minion is acting. Other minions cannot use Mask of a Thousand
Faces to take over the action (not even a minion that has a similar stealth
bonus, since that would still be a different effect than the one already
applied).
The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a
Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more
damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play,
for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you
cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before
burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for
example).
Effects that prevent "up to X" damage and effects that "prevent X" damage
mean the same thing. In both cases, applying the effect prevents X damage.
If fewer than X points of (preventable) damage are being resolved, then the
effect prevents all of those points.
Dodge protects the dodger from the effects of the opposing minion's strike,
even if that strike is done at First Strike or even if it is a Combat Ends
strike (Combat Ends will still end combat, but any additional effects the
strike would have on the dodger, like Catatonic Fear's damage, are dodged).
Daneel
> "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> news:opsid9o9...@news.chello.hu...
>> Does S:CE protect from the opponent's S:CE?
>
> No.
What kind of backward crap is that? This is the
silliest ruling I've ever heared. No, actually it
is the second silliest (following the ominous
luckily short-lived one on Rafastino going into
torpor when playing Burst).
--
Bye,
Daneel
Daneel
> "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> news:opsieac3...@news.chello.hu...
>> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:54:50 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> > "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
>> > news:opsid9o9...@news.chello.hu...
>> >> Does S:CE protect from the opponent's S:CE?
>> > No.
>>
>> What kind of backward crap is that?
>
> Your question lacks meaning. Please elaborate if
> you had some behind the question.
Touché. ;)
> This kind of crap is the "oh, let's follow the
> stuff printed in the rulebook" kind.
>
> Dodge protects the dodger from the opponent's strike. [6.4.5]
>
> S:CE has no such provision, other than ending combat
> before other (non-S:CE) strikes.
Okay, I understand that. But changing the rulebook wouldn't be hard
either. ;)
I'm sure there might be benefit in strengthening dodge relative
to S:CE, but still, the unwritten PURPOSE of S:CE is to protect
the vampire from ANYTHING the opponent does. One would assume
that it is a sort of major dodge. Cards like Staredown or
Spiritual Intervention reinforce that assumption. In that light
giving dodge (but not S:CE) an additional ability seems unintuitive.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Luis Duarte
should have assumed the way the majority of people play Dodge and no
one complaints. I don't see here a matter of card abuse, so why change
the way people normally play it?
I'm convinced that the majority of players accept to take Catatonic
Fear after combat point of damage even if they played Dodge, without
complaint... and feel this is a logical point of damage!
In the other hand, the so long waited correction to First Strike rule,
which should be prioritary over Dodge and players beg for it time
after time, seems to be delayed for another eternity...
Just my humble opinion.
.- Luis Duarte
Flux
> "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> news:opsieac3...@news.chello.hu...
>
>>On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:54:50 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
>>>news:opsid9o9...@news.chello.hu...
>>>
>>>>Does S:CE protect from the opponent's S:CE?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>>What kind of backward crap is that?
>
>
> Your question lacks meaning. Please elaborate if
> you had some behind the question.
>
> This kind of crap is the "oh, let's follow the
> stuff printed in the rulebook" kind.
>
> Dodge protects the dodger from the opponent's strike. [6.4.5]
>
> S:CE has no such provision, other than ending combat
> before other (non-S:CE) strikes.
For the record, I like this ruling for exactly that reason, I always thought
that was the most obvious and simple reading of the rulesbook.
But most people got used to put Dodge resolving between SCE and FS, when in
fact the rulesbook never defines a specific timing for the resolution of a
Dodge (hence the need for the clarification regarding FS).
Flux
LSJ
> Maybe it's just me, but the Dodge clarification (ruling or whatever)
> should have assumed the way the majority of people play Dodge and no
> one complaints. I don't see here a matter of card abuse, so why change
> the way people normally play it?
People "normally" play it the way the rules state it is to be
played.
Only after reading the alteration to such online do players begin
to play it otherwise (eventually becoming second nature), and those
players teach it to others.
> I'm convinced that the majority of players accept to take Catatonic
> Fear after combat point of damage even if they played Dodge, without
> complaint... and feel this is a logical point of damage!
I'm not convinced that the majority of players feel that "dodge
protects the dodger" includes some exception.
> In the other hand, the so long waited correction to First Strike rule,
> which should be prioritary over Dodge and players beg for it time
> after time, seems to be delayed for another eternity...
That change would not be a correction.
See Google for detailed explanations why.
Some small minority of players would like to see that change, perhaps.
Players beg for it to be left in its proper state time after time
as well (as long as we're making unsupported assertions).
That change is not delayed; it is simply not in the queue.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3191o3F...@individual.net...
> As always, errata and reversals of previous rulings do not go into
effect
> for constructed deck tournaments for 30 days (i.e., until January 1,
2005).
> ERRATA
>
> ======
>
> Rötschreck (Rotschreck) is only usable during strike declaration when
a
> strike that deals aggravated damage targets a vampire (may still be
played
> after both minions have announce their strikes). In particular, it is
not
> usable for effects that resolve when played (which includes most
non-strike
> effects), like Pulled Fangs under a Dawn Operation.
OK. This probably won't affect too many games, in practice. :-)
> RULINGS
>
> =======
>
> A minion's inherent stealth (e.g., Muaziz, Jost Werner, and even Hesha
> Ruhadze when hunting) counts as an effect (since the stealth is
"applied"
> when that minion is acting. Other minions cannot use Mask of a
Thousand
> Faces to take over the action (not even a minion that has a similar
stealth
> bonus, since that would still be a different effect than the one
already
> applied).
I still think a much simpler (less restrictive) method of writing Mask
would be sensible, but with the way it's handled now, this seems
reasonable.
> The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like
tapping a
> Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into
more
> damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
> applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in
play,
> for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however
(you
> cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood
before
> burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for
> example).
It sounds like this means that you can go into the damage resolution
phase (like when the acting minion decides to apply Weather Control
damage immediately after playing the Weather Control card) and then play
non-damage-handling effects before going into damage handling - but once
you've started damage handling, all you can do is handle damage; there's
no tapping of the Barrens or whatever in that step. Is that right?
> Effects that prevent "up to X" damage and effects that "prevent X"
damage
> mean the same thing. In both cases, applying the effect prevents X
damage.
> If fewer than X points of (preventable) damage are being resolved,
then the
> effect prevents all of those points.
If I read this right, it means that if you play Diversion at [for]
("prevent up to 2 damage"), you don't get to choose how much damage you
prevent. Instead it prevents as much damage as there is, up to a
maximum of 2. That is, you can't prevent 3 damage with 3 Diversions
anymore; the first Diversion you play will prevent 2 damage and the
second will prevent the remaining 1. There will then be no more damage
to prevent so you can't play any more Diversions.
> Dodge protects the dodger from the effects of the opposing minion's
strike,
> even if that strike is done at First Strike or even if it is a Combat
Ends
> strike (Combat Ends will still end combat, but any additional effects
the
> strike would have on the dodger, like Catatonic Fear's damage, are
dodged).
This is kind of an odd ruling. The rulebook says, in [6.4.5] "Strike
Effects", that Combat Ends "ends combat immediately. This type of
strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with
first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike
resolution effects are resolved."
Doesn't this pretty clearly say that when a Combat Ends strike resolves,
it resolves before a Dodge strike can resolve? Why would a non-resolved
Dodge strike be able to prevent the effects on the Dodging minion of the
S:CE strike? After all, a dodge "is a strike, even though it is solely
defensive", and presumably it has to resolve to be effective. (Also
from the rulebook in [6.4.5].) Yes, the rulebook does also say that
dodge "protects the dodging minion and his possessions from the effects
of the opposing strike", but I wouldn't expect that to exempt it from
the usual "strikes have to resolve to be effective" rule. S:CE doesn't
get to "end combat immediately" if Rotschreck is played before it can
resolve, for example.
Josh
the bridge was old, the view was new
LSJ
news:319ekjF...@individual.net...
[snip]
Yes to the two questions that restated the RTR verbiage.
> > Dodge protects the dodger from the effects of the opposing minion's
> strike,
> > even if that strike is done at First Strike or even if it is a Combat
> Ends
> > strike (Combat Ends will still end combat, but any additional effects
> the
> > strike would have on the dodger, like Catatonic Fear's damage, are
> dodged).
>
> This is kind of an odd ruling. The rulebook says, in [6.4.5] "Strike
> Effects", that Combat Ends "ends combat immediately. This type of
> strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with
> first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike
> resolution effects are resolved."
>
> Doesn't this pretty clearly say that when a Combat Ends strike resolves,
> it resolves before a Dodge strike can resolve?
If one presupposed that dodge has to queue up in the resolution queue,
perhaps.
Dodge doesn't. It just protects the dodger.
For instance, Stutter-Step doesn't have two resolutions (one at the
"dodge-step", whatever that is, and another at the normal strike
(or at the first strike step, if you stutter at first strike). It
just has one, and is a dodge besides.
> Why would a non-resolved
> Dodge strike be able to prevent the effects on the Dodging minion of the
> S:CE strike? After all, a dodge "is a strike, even though it is solely
> defensive", and presumably it has to resolve to be effective.
No. It is just in the place of a strike (or in addition, in the case of
Stutter Step).
> (Also
> from the rulebook in [6.4.5].) Yes, the rulebook does also say that
> dodge "protects the dodging minion and his possessions from the effects
> of the opposing strike", but I wouldn't expect that to exempt it from
> the usual "strikes have to resolve to be effective" rule.
Fine. Then take the multiple resolutions and place dodge at the top
of the list. Same effect (errata to 6.4.5, for those that need it).
> S:CE doesn't
> get to "end combat immediately" if Rotschreck is played before it can
> resolve, for example.
If you don't get past choose strikes, sure.
Dodge is the same in that regard.
Darky
> Maybe it's just me, but the Dodge clarification (ruling or whatever)
> should have assumed the way the majority of people play Dodge and no
> one complaints. I don't see here a matter of card abuse, so why change
> the way people normally play it?
>
> I'm convinced that the majority of players accept to take Catatonic
> Fear after combat point of damage even if they played Dodge, without
> complaint... and feel this is a logical point of damage!
The ruling isnt exactly earthshattering, nor will it change the
outcome of many games. It follows rulebook text.
> In the other hand, the so long waited correction to First Strike rule,
> which should be prioritary over Dodge and players beg for it time
> after time, seems to be delayed for another eternity...
Ehm.. and lets hope it stays 'delayed' until eternity. Players who
'beg for it time after time' just have a poor grasp of balance and
measure.
> Just my humble opinion.
> .- Luis Duarte
-Bram Vink
Daneel
> Players beg for it to be left in its proper state time after time
> as well (as long as we're making unsupported assertions).
Please, PLEASE don't make first strike beat dodge. It is fine the way it
is.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Tobias
> for constructed deck tournaments for 30 days (i.e., until January 1, 2005).
<snip>
>
> Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes, even aggressive S:CE effects
> (like Catatonic Fear).
>
<snip>
> Dodge protects the dodger from the effects of the opposing minion's strike,
> even if that strike is done at First Strike or even if it is a Combat Ends
> strike (Combat Ends will still end combat, but any additional effects the
> strike would have on the dodger, like Catatonic Fear's damage, are dodged).
I presume the 'continue action' of Form of Mist, for instance, is not
an "additional effect on the dodger"? In other words, the action would
continue, if FoM was played at superior by the acting minion and dodge
by the blocking minion?
Tobias
Deventer
Joshua Duffin
resolves,
> > it resolves before a Dodge strike can resolve?
>
> If one presupposed that dodge has to queue up in the resolution queue,
> perhaps.
>
> Dodge doesn't. It just protects the dodger.
Hmm. Okay. I had totally forgotten that you had this in mind since
1998 (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=356ADDA6.167E%40wizards.com).
I'm only surprised (now) that it didn't get done in, like, the 2000
Sabbat War rulebook. :-) Presumably it'll go into the next rulebook in
explicit form?
Josh
re-rewind
Jeroen
> As always, errata and reversals of previous rulings do not go into effect
> for constructed deck tournaments for 30 days (i.e., until January 1, 2005).
>
nothing about Da Club again?
and a more personal pet peeve: nothing about DI either?
LSJ
news:8aa6db00.04120...@posting.google.com...
> I presume the 'continue action' of Form of Mist, for instance, is not
> an "additional effect on the dodger"? In other words, the action would
> continue, if FoM was played at superior by the acting minion and dodge
> by the blocking minion?
All effects that are not applied to the dodger are not affected
by the dodge. The dodge only protects the dodger (and non-retainer
cards on the dodger).
Daniel H
> even if that strike is done at First Strike or even if it is a Combat Ends
> strike (Combat Ends will still end combat, but any additional effects the
> strike would have on the dodger, like Catatonic Fear's damage, are dodged).
Is it now possible to dodge a Rötshreck?
LSJ
Question of resolution is moot.
Rotschreck resolves when played and, as always, doesn't care how the
target will be affected by the agg damage.
Halcyan 2
>> should have assumed the way the majority of people play Dodge and no
>> one complaints. I don't see here a matter of card abuse, so why change
>> the way people normally play it?
>
>People "normally" play it the way the rules state it is to be
>played.
>
>Only after reading the alteration to such online do players begin
>to play it otherwise (eventually becoming second nature), and those
>players teach it to others.
I'm a little used to the old S:CE-->Dodge-->First Strike-->All other strikes
hierarchy, but I don't really think I mind the new change.
In fact, in some ways it's a good thing. Previously, S:CE just about always
outclassed Dodge (unless you were also playing combat and intended to do
additionals or press). At least now there may be a slight consolation to
including dodge as your combat defense instead of S:CE.
>> In the other hand, the so long waited correction to First Strike rule,
>> which should be prioritary over Dodge and players beg for it time
>> after time, seems to be delayed for another eternity...
>
>That change would not be a correction.
>
>See Google for detailed explanations why.
>
>Some small minority of players would like to see that change, perhaps.
>
>Players beg for it to be left in its proper state time after time
>as well (as long as we're making unsupported assertions).
>
>That change is not delayed; it is simply not in the queue.
I concur. Here's another player begging for it to be left in it's proper state.
(S:CE and Dodge should serve as protection against First Strike, otherwise FS
would be far too strong).
Halcyan 2
Jozxyqk
No, Rotschreck happens at strike declaration; the strikes don't resolve.
Tetragrammaton
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:319f11F...@individual.net...
> > it resolves before a Dodge strike can resolve?
>
> If one presupposed that dodge has to queue up in the resolution queue,
> perhaps.
>
> Dodge doesn't. It just protects the dodger.
>
Dodge protects the dodger if it's resolved - against S:CE, dodge
should supposed to not be resolved.
Can't really see the need of such ruling...
just my 2 cent
Emiliano, v:ekn Prince of Rome
Enrique San Mart?n
> "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message
> news:dXIrd.132626$5K2.128964@attbi_s03...
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > > Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes, even aggressive S:CE
> effects
> > > (like Catatonic Fear).
> > What about Meld with the Land?
>
> Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes.
>
> > If a minion Dodges a Meld with the Land, do they untap?
>
> No.
the gehenna it's coming :(
Enrique San Mart?n
> should have assumed the way the majority of people play Dodge and no
> one complaints. I don't see here a matter of card abuse, so why change
> the way people normally play it?
>
For year's we play with no limit of card in the construction of the
deck's (we play between 100 card's and 140), and we play tables
between 3 to 17 player's... if that your reason's why the people must
accept the new errata.. then, allow unlimited deck construction...
people who never play with a deck of 150 card's complaint about the
request made by the spanish people of allowing more card's to make
deck's... we have play a lot of year... and the diference it's not
much, in fact always we try to smaller the deck's because with a lot
of card's, don't work well the deck.... but no body listing to the
players...
> I'm convinced that the majority of players accept to take Catatonic
> Fear after combat point of damage even if they played Dodge, without
> complaint... and feel this is a logical point of damage!
>
Always was in that way... a point of damage after the combat... it's
not dodgeable... but... :(
> In the other hand, the so long waited correction to First Strike rule,
> which should be prioritary over Dodge and players beg for it time
> after time, seems to be delayed for another eternity...
>
first strike it's first strike... resolve the strike first... then...
resolve the non first strike.... but... the first strike... it's not
the first (S:CE)
> Just my humble opinion.
> .- Luis Duarte
Sadly :(
Enrique San Martín W.
James Coupe
I would imagine that many, many, many players are listened to by LSJ,
White Wolf and so on. Not all of it occurs here, however, and not all
changes as a result of it will occur because every play-group in the
world has encountered problems, difficulties or something else that is
appropriate for addressing.
As a historical example, see the changes to - say - Drawing Out The
Beast some years back. Ditto Weather Control. These were changes
brought on by some areas having problems - when a lot of the rest of the
world was saying "Huh?"
It might also be worth considering that some changes made by LSJ might
also be made with his "I'm designing the next expansion" hat on.
Sometimes, the rest of us simply can't see what's planned. For
instance, I think the grouping rule has worked out rather well (and
there clearly has been effort to listen to the players on it) - even
though quite a lot of players clearly turned round and said "What the
hell?" when it was introduced.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
salem
scrawled:
>"Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> wrote in message
>news:319ekjF...@individual.net...
>
>[snip]
>Yes to the two questions that restated the RTR verbiage.
for what it's worth, Josh's restatement of the 'prevent upto X' ruling
actually allowed me to understand what the rule was trying to do. :)
but then, it has been a long day....
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Halcyan 2
>> which should be prioritary over Dodge and players beg for it time
>> after time, seems to be delayed for another eternity...
>>
>
>first strike it's first strike... resolve the strike first... then...
>resolve the non first strike.... but... the first strike... it's not
>the first (S:CE)
Okay, let's change the name to Fast Strike instead of First Strike. It doesn't
actually go First, but it's still Faster than most normal (non-S:CE, non-Dodge)
strikes. Would that make you happy?
Halcyan 2