Malkavian Antitribu Newsletter, September 2007
Ector
1. INTRODUCTION
I didn't want to write a new issue of my newsletter. I have no mood,
and no time. I'm divorcing with my wife, and trying to leave VTES at
all, after I failed to convince my players to replace the stupid LotN
prerelease format "recommended" by WW to the normal booster draft.
Looks like nobody considers this game a serious sport, so is there any
reason to waste my time for "just a recreation"? If I need a
recreation, I can play some computer game, or read a book.
Unfortunately, my sense of duty was stronger - it appears that I
simply cannot move to the next month without a newsletter! :) So, I
present you a sort of LotN review. I definitely may be wrong (as
anyone who tries to do something), but at least I'm trying...
There are no !Malks in this set, but a lot of cards can be used in
various !Malkavian decks. So, if you wonder "what is !Malkavian in
this newsletter", I can tell you - "point of view".
2. CRAPPY CARDS (aka WALLPAPERS) OF LOTN
I *hate* the crappy cards. Each card should be playable at least in
one deck archetype. If you open the card that is completely
unplayable, you feel yourself robbed. One of the reasons for my former
love in VTES was almost absolute lack of crap. Unfortunately, Lords of
Night has some unplayable cards, including rares, but not very much
(something like 10%). Some greedy CCG producers print 75% of crap or
even more!
Agent of Power
--------------
Sometimes you need a Discipline just for a single card in your deck,
but nobody will wait until he get both the card and Agent of Power in
his hand. If you have several cards that your vampires cannot play,
Agent of Power won't save you; look for Infernal Pact or some
equipment like Sargon Fragment. Uniqueness makes the card even worse.
Ambulance
----------
"If this action is blocked again, burn this card". This is a death
sentence for a 1-pool equipment. Everybody knows that actions that
"continue as unblocked" are blocked again quite often. If the blocking
vampire was Waked, he even doesn't need another Wake to block again!
Armor of Vitality
-----------------
Melee weapons aren't so popular to hose them, and if there are no
swords to break, it's much worse than Rolling with the Punches, Skin
of Steel and Superior Mettle. Oh yes, you can prevent damage from
Carrion Crows, but Soak is still better for that.
Bestow Vigor
-------------
You spend an action (though you untap after it) and a blood to give an
ally inferior Fortitude in combat for 2 turns. So what? You need an
ally to play this, and you need the Fortitude cards, and, finally, all
you get from these complicated combos is some protection for the ally?
In 99% cases the ally doesn't worth it, or you can use much more
powerful cards like Heaven's Gate. If you plan to use Bestow Vigor on
vampires, why not Shared Strength? No actions, and good surprise for
your opponents.
Community Justice
-----------------
Who plays cards that work only after opponent's diablerie?
Divine Image
------------
What do you plan to achieve with this card? Bleed at +1, even with +1
strength but at -1 stealth doesn't cost 2 blood. Rush with +1 strength
still doesn't cost 2 blood. What else?
Kpist m/45
-----------
While AK-47 is very cornercase, but playable in the decks without
Celerity that have some way to get it cheaper, this one is completely
useless. Oh yes, Rounds, I know, but they are far less flexible than
Pursuits, Blurs and others. Without Rounds you will get the same
damage as from .44 Magnum, but for 3 pool, and this one cannot be
Concealed.
Open Dossier
-------------
Who plays card that are playable only by contract targets and only
against the killers?
Resume the Coil
----------------
Who is planning to get into torpor so othen that he needs cards to
reduce the resque cost? Vampires that resque cheaper are different
matter, but wasting cards for that? No way.
Trophy: Library
----------------
Getting a Trophy is rather difficult, so nobody is going to make
somebody Red List and then burn him just for +2 hand size. AFAIK,
Elder Library is not uber-popular.
Trophy: Revered
----------------
+2 bleed isn't a good reward for burning a Red List. You may get +1
from Camera Phone just for an action.
3. HORROR CARDS OF LOTN (CARDS THAT SHOULD NEVER BEEN PRINTED)
Burden the Mind
-----------------
This card enforces the horrible weenies, and we all know that they
must be eliminated, not enforced. Why this is worse than Pentex
Subversion? Because only THAT vampire can burn the card; so, actually
it means "no Wakes for one turn and waste an action on the next turn".
It's also cheaper and not unique, so a weenie with Parhthenon can play
*two* Burdens in one turn and completely lock prey's Wakes.
I don't think that !Malks need this card. We play a fair game of
"stealth against intercept", not "our numbers will overcome your
Wakes".
Camera Phone
-------------
Permanent +1 bleed for free? Really??? Again, great thanks from the
disciplineless weenies. They don't need 20+ Computer Hackings anymore,
10-15 Camera Phones will replace them more than adequately, especially
in non-combat metagames, and leave more space for dodges and other
tricks.
Anti-Malks don't need this card - it doesn't combine with Kindred
Spirits.
False Resonance
-----------------
Do we really need to help S&B to cancel bounce? This card hoses
Telepathic Misdirection, and that's awful. Besides, how many playable
reactions on Dementation do you know? One: Shattered Mirror. Is there
any point in printing the good card (not broken by any means) and
printing its hoser in the next set? Thanks to the +1 stealth at
superior, this card is going to be popular.
Anti-Malks hate this card with a passion, as it nullifies the only
bounce card we have and prevents us from playing Shattered Mirror
(why?)
Fantasy World
--------------
Do we really need another "star hoser"? I don't think so. With this
card, Ravnos can completely shut down any minion for his own turn,
burn one blood or life from him and leave him tapped for the next turn
- all for 2 blood. Not a Sensory Deprivation, for sure, but "cannot
play cards and cast votes" is much more harsh than just "doesn't untap
as normal". This will hit even a Baali! Besides, Fantasy World is
cheaper and has +1 stealth at superior.
Lesser Boon
------------
This completely destroys all Wall decks based on a single
"star" (Lazverinus decks, for instance). All you need is to block that
monster and play Lesser Boon. "This minion cannot block your minions"
is too powerful, and it *cannot* be burned!!! You may have a horrible
voting deck that will drop your prey to 1-5 pool in few turns. After
that, the monster will be able to block, but it may be too late. Now
you can play without stealth at all - include a light intercept module
(preferably permanent) and some Lesser Boons. It is not unique, so you
can repeat this trick as needed...
!Malks can use this card - probably, even better than anybody else, as
Telepathic Misdirection can be used to get intercept, and we have Kite
with inbuilt +1 intercept. But still, WW should NOT print such things.
Leverage
----------
So we need to give disciplineless weenie more tools besides Camera
Phones? Oh really? "I bleed for one" - "No block" - "Once more" - "No
block" - "Leverage".
Oh yes, !Malks can use this card too, as there are no restrictions
like "no more bleed enhancers". I just think that it wouldn't be very
clever to use it, since we can bleed for 3-4 without it, and larger
bleeds are very dangerous (bounce, Archon Investigation, etc.)
Probably, Dementation-weenie is the best deck for this card: it's
forced to use Confusions (not Eyes of Chaos) to get stealth, so
getting some more bleed would be nice, especially in such aggressive
deck. But still, Leverage is going to be most popular in the weenies,
and enforcing weenies is definitely bad.
Mental Maze
------------
Rush is the traditional enemy of stealth-bleeding and stealth-voting
decks. Does anybody wants to see a large Setite blocking all rushers
and playing Mental Mazes for free without tapping? Blocking rushes is
simple enough most of the time... I thought that WW is trying to
enforce Rush, but such cards are killing it!
Mesu Bedshet
-------------
This is the most broken card in the entire set.
Getting a new vampire costs 4 transfers + 1 pool. If it's younger, you
get additional +2 transfers and +2 pool, so you gain +6 transfers and
+3 pool total just for an action that costs 1 blood. That's too good,
especially transfer-wise. Setites are going to spread like rats.
Let's compare this to the existing cards. Yes, there are actions like
Kindred Intelligence and Clotho's Gift that give you another vampire,
but you get only +4 transfers and +1 pool (a cost of getting the
additional vampire in "normal" way). And there are Governs/Founders of
the Ebony Kingdom that provide up to +4 transfers and +4 pool, but you
need to have a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region - so if you
want to spread a horde, you will have to pay 4 transfers and 1 pool
for each new vamp, and this effectively neutralizes the threat of over-
spreading. How often did you paid for another vamp just to be able to
get pool from your Governs?
With Mesu Bedshet, you have absolutely no problems in getting a huge
horde. Having +6 transfers for a single action is so insane that
Information Highway is nothing compared to this! Two extra transfers
per turn? I can have +12 or even more! Looks like the designers don't
realize the value of "transfers" at all, as long as they are printing
such cards. Players are getting *four* transfers per turn to ensure
more-or-less equal speed of influencing vampires. If some player can
get *six* transfers just in one action, the balance is completely
broken. Moreover, if you just need pool, Metsu Bedshet never fails to
provide you 2 pool, as long as you have Setites in your crypt, and the
acting vampire is the eldest (use a Discipline card - Setites often
use Obfuscate cards for their Waters anyway).
Now please think about Dreams of the Sphinx that will provide you even
more free pool and transfers, The Eternals of Sirius, if you have some
fatties, and superior Public Trust that also moves blood to your
uncontrolled region. You can influence vampires so quickly that
rushers won't have enough actions to torporize them!
Mokole Blood
-------------
What the designers were smoking when they designed this? Fetching FOUR
cards requiring Serpentis and effectively increasing your hand by
these 4 cards! What about 4 Enticements that are going to hit the prey
for 12 pool, without any chance to bounce? Or maybe Form of
Corruption, Truth of a Thousand Lies to untap and Consignment to Duat?
In this case, "burn this card when there are no cards on it" is an
*advantage* , since you can equip another copy of Mokole Blood and
fetch 4 MORE cards.
Anti-Malks are protesting against such overpowered cards! Our Sibyl's
Tongue is a fair card for a fair price: you can fetch only ONE part of
the combo, not all the combo at once. There are cards that increase
your hand size, even "giant stores" like Shulmulo Tarot, but you still
have to cycle until you find what you need. There are great cyclers,
but fetching 4 cards at once and keeping them in addition to your
normal hand is too much.
Narrow Minds
-------------
So, we really need to hose bounce, aren't we? Bounce is the only
remedy from the reckless powerbleed that would ruin the entire game -
and now we are cutting the branch where we are sitting.
You may say that increasing cost is not much, people will still play
bounce, but, you know, if a stealth-bleed manages to slow its prey,
it's almost guaranteed to oust it until it ousts its own prey. And
Narrow Minds results in loss of 5-6 extra blood per game that could be
easily converted into 5-6 more pool via Blood Dolls and Vessels.
If they tried to enforce stealth-bleed, they could make more stealth
(or better stealth), or more bleed, but hosing bounce wasn't very
clever. Surely, !Malks will play this card! Narrow Minds is going to
be in *EVERY* bleeding deck, and it will negatively affect the game.
Preternatural Strength
-----------------------
OK, this card is not broken, but it still is much more powerful than
other strength-enhancing cards. Getting +2 strength permanently just
for a +2 stealth action and 1 blood is too good. This greatly
diminishes value of vampire's additional strength. Yes, I know that
cards like Heart of the City and Pulse didn't kill the transient cards
providing +2 bleed, but these cards cost more than 1 blood, and, more
importantly, a vampire with Pulse is a target #1 for all rushes, while
a vampire with Preternatural Strength is a person to avoid :) Besides,
you can use +2 bleed only once per turn, while +2 strength can be used
several times per turn, either in multirush decks or in blocking
decks.
On the other hand, Rush decks really need a boost... But nevertheless,
it's strange to see that any vamp with superior Potence can become
Lazverinus with a single action.
Reckless Agitation
-------------------
This one is clearly too powerful, despite the cost and requirements.
KRC deals no more than 3 damage to your prey, Conservative Agitation
deals 4, but only until somebody gets ousted, Parity Shift works only
when your prey has more pool. This one deals FIVE damage to your prey,
and you will generally have to push it just 2-3 times to oust. Voter
Captivation wasn't changed, Awe is the same, so pushing Recksless
Agitation isn't too difficult. Too powerful.
Unholy Penance
---------------
Combat Ends for 1 blood is OK. S:CE and untap is very good, but "S:CE
and +1 bleed until you waste an action" may appear to be too good,
especially in S&B decks. When your Rush prey is attempting to stop
your Setite S&B, you will not only foil his action, but also get +1
bleed against him? Or you were trying to play Reckless Agitation, your
prey blocked, you can play Unholy Penance, untap and bleed with +1
bleed?
Setites already had the second best Combat Ends in the whole game:
Majesty. I don't think that S&B decks needed something even better.
Vessel
-------
This card is a "dream of all stealth-bleeds". You don't need to Wash
that Blood Doll anymore, just convert your own Blood Dolls to Vessels.
Pool cost is generally not that crucial for S&B, but the ability to
play another master card really is. This card empowers S&B a lot: play
more masters and burn your prey's Blood Dolls, all for 1 pool! Non-
aggressive decks will still prefer Blood Dolls, since they are free,
and you can gain pool immediately.
!Malk S&B decks will definitely play Vessels instead of Blood Dolls.
But I'm pretty sure that S&B was powerful enough without such hosing
toys...
4. GOOD CARDS FOR !MALKS
Blithe Acceptance
-----------------
Having +1 permanent stealth is good. You will need stealth to push it,
though, since it doesn't have inbuilt +1 stealth, but still. This card
isn't going to be very good in S&B, because it makes the vampire a
target, but it will be very good in the various "fetch-decks" and
combo-decks. Use one Forgotten Labyrinth to push it, and you will be
able to push several crucial parts of your combo.
Fillip
-------
!Malks are often used as a support with superior Auspex to play
Telepathic Misdirections. Having a good mix of Fillips and On the Qui
Vives allows you to wake when you need and always replace the card.
Into Thin Air
-------------
Almost strictly better than Lost in Crowds, but doesn't get replaced
until your untap. Nice to have a pair of these for extreme cases...
Jericho Founding
----------------
Finally. I tired of the decks with all sorts of permacept locations.
Malajit Chandramouli
---------------------
Again, the card for combo-decks that need to push the crucial actions.
Omael Kuman
------------
Can serve as a panacea against a close-range Rush, for instance.
Losing 1 blood is much better than losing
a vampire.
Powerbase: Zurich
------------------
Very powerful card for S&B decks. As long as you bleed successfully at
least once per turn, nobody will be able to "burn the Edge during his
master phase" and steal your Powerbase. Acceleration and pool-gaining
are always good. But this card isn't overpowered, since you get only 2
pool + 2 transfers for each action.
Tye Cooper
----------
Excellent blocker (immune to non-aggravated damage!) and makes wonders
with retrieving Sibyl's Tongues from your ash heap. Use Mata Hari to
play him, and then your vampires will cover his action with Veil the
Legions. Not sure who will torporize and how, but this depends on the
deck.
5. OTHER GOOD CARDS (not including the mentioned above)
Bloodlust
----------
Finally, a good way to get a rush for a weenie horde. The price is OK,
but why does the card require Presence? This effectively limits it to
Brujah/!Brujah unless you are going to take a star like Una.
Dream World
-----------
Something like Madman's Quill for Setites. Less powerful, but free.
Eyes of Blades
---------------
Yet another "non-strike Combat Ends". Would be much more popular
without the words "Do not replace...".
Flesh Bond
-----------
Combat Ends for Animalism. Why not?
Haqim's Law: Leadership
-----------------------
Assamites can bloat. Finally.
Kumpania
---------
Good Ranvos location. Just one pool, no blood burning. Going to be
popular.
Loss
----
Assamites can bleed!!! And burn equipment and locations with the same
card! Really nice.
Lost in Translation
--------------------
This card won't affect the metagame much. Two blood is quite a lot,
and "younger" is a serious limitation, but the real reason is: not
every deck needs bounce. If your deck ousts your prey slowly, bounce
will just help your predator to oust his next prey. And you cannot put
many copies of Lost in Translation into your deck due to its cost.
This card will be probably limited to aggressive decks without Auspex
and Dominate - for instance, a voting deck with Reckless Agitations
can use it.
Mirror's Visage
---------------
+2 stealth for undirected action is very good, especially if the
action has inbuilt +1 stealth. Nice for equipping crucial things and
recruiting Tumnimos.
Monster
-------
This card is very, very good. You may use it in multi-rush deck
instead of Freak Drives (especially if your vamps have no Fortitude),
or in intercept deck instead of extra Wakes. Sometimes you can even
use it both ways (for instance, Akunanse No Secrets from the Magaji
deck). Anneke with Alastor/Assault Rifle will be happy to become
Monster, too. The same about Elimelech and many others.
Murmur of the False Will
------------------------
Finally, Dominate got a bounce card that can be used when there are
only two players left!
Precision
---------
This makes Celerity-based decks much better. "Discard that Majesty and
burn 1 pool. Then, I will rush you".
Resist Earth's Grasp
--------------------
Finally, some decent stealth for Celerity. Great!
Sense the Savage Way
--------------------
Very good card for Animalism-based intercept. Now there are enough
cards to build real Walls...
Set's Curse
-----------
A brutal card. Burn ally or weenie and get an ally for yourself, that
can block weenies and hit them hard. Really good and anticipated card.
Sheepdog
--------
Fifth Tradition for infernals :)
Slam
-----
Potence finally got a strike with maneuver to close range. Great!
Street Cred
-----------
Pool gain for combat achievements!!! Finally. At last...
Target Hand
-----------
A decent anti-weapons card for vampires that cannot use more effective
cards. And for allies, too.
The Eternals of Sirius
----------------------
This is NOT another Zillah's Valley: you pay 4 and get 5, not vice
versa :) Your chance of influencing a 8-cap on the first turn are
quite good. Even if you don't have any large Setites in your
uncontrolled region, you will still get 1 pool from this card.
Therbold Realty
---------------
Harbingers will be able to build a whole street of Slaughterhouses for
free :) And we !Malks will help them to fetch Therbold Reality and
other important cards.
Trochomancy
-----------
Harbingers also got +2 bleed modifier. Not sure why they should need
to remove prey's library from the game, though.
Underbridge Stray
-----------------
Cheap ally that can do at least three things: block opposing vampires,
provide you some presses (good for Carrion Crows) and die to untap
another minion. Not spectacular, but decent.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. DECK OF THE MONTH
Deck Name: Cry Wolves Cry
Created By: Ilya Ginsburg (Ector)
Description: Anarch Giovanni summon Cry Wolves, then their wraiths!
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 14, Max: 22, Avg: 4,67)
----------------------------------------------
1 Raphaela Giovanni pot pre DOM NEC 6 Giovanni
1 Francis Milliner pre vic NEC POT 6 Giovanni
2 Margaret Milliner dom for nec pot pre 5 Giovanni
1 Donatello Giovanni aus pot pre DOM 5 Giovanni
4 Luc dem vic OBF 5 Malkavian
Antitribu
1 Thomasso Ghiberti pot NEC 4 Giovanni
1 Stephen Milliner nec pre 3 Giovanni
1 Cristobal Ghiberti nec 2 Giovanni
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (13 cards)
1 Hospital Food
1 Anarch Free Press, The
1 Morgue Hunting Ground
4 Proxy Kissed
1 Powerbase: Cape Verde
3 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Seattle Committee
1 Powerbase: Los Angeles
Action (37 cards)
10 Gear Up
10 Undue Influence
4 Sibyl`s Tongue
8 Khazar's Diary
5 Shell Break
Action Modifier (16 cards)
10 Call of the Hungry Dead
6 Veil the Legions
Reaction (4 cards)
4 Deflection
Combat (12 cards)
2 Groundfighting
10 Spiritual Intervention
Ally (8 cards)
8 Cry Wolf
This is a very funny deck that was inspired by a combination of
Khazar's Diary, Cry Wolf and Shell Break. You get free counters for
the Diary "when unique minion is burned" - not an easy condition to
trigger. If you can burn opposing vampires, do you need Khasar's Diary
and other tricks? Fortunately, you can use unique ally that dies
itself: Cry Wolf. The beastie cost you nothing and lives just one
turn. If you manage to play Shell Break on it, your vampire will get
+1 bleed and +1 intercept, which is definitely good! Poor Wolves seems
to be ideal allies for these horrible Giovanni deeds.
So, we need an anarch Giovanni deck. Fortunately, LoN has some low-cap
Giovanni with Presence (they are Milliners, not Giovanni, but
whatever), and we have FIVE such vampires in 4-5 groups now. So we can
use the most effective anarch cards like Gear Up and Undue Influence.
I am not a great fan of anarch decks, so please consider this deck
just a sketch of a real deck, if you wish to use this idea. I was
forced to remove Go Anarchs since there are too many Actions here; you
can fetch Seattle Committee with Sibyl's Tongue or just spend some
blood to become anarchs.
The only !Malk here is Luc which helps with cycling and stealth. You
need to find as much Khasar's Diaries and Cry Wolves as you can, since
each Diary after the first one adds a counter. As long as you have 8
copies of each card, it's quite possible to find 2-3 copies early,
especially with Luc. Don't forget that you can retrieve Diaries from
your ash heap with Gear Up, so you won't really need to find 8 Wolves/
Diaries.
The first target for your Sibyl's Tongue should be Seattle Committee,
if you get it early, or probably Anarch Free Press or Powerbase: Cape
Verde. If you don't have Khazar's Diary, you may fetch it too,
especially if you have a lot of Cry Wolves.
That's all for September. You can discuss the mentioned topics, but I
cannot guarantee that I will have time to answer everybody. Sorry for
that.
Ector
Peter D Bakija
Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> I didn't want to write a new issue of my newsletter.
You don't have to. Really. I mean, I applaud your efforts. And your
newsletters are generally pretty entertaining. But really. If you don't
feel like doing this, don't do it.
> I have no mood,
> and no time. I'm divorcing with my wife, and trying to leave VTES at
> all, after I failed to convince my players to replace the stupid LotN
> prerelease format "recommended" by WW to the normal booster draft.
Uh, thanks for sharing?
> Looks like nobody considers this game a serious sport, so is there any
> reason to waste my time for "just a recreation"?
No. No there isn't.
> Ambulance
> ----------
> "If this action is blocked again, burn this card". This is a death
> sentence for a 1-pool equipment. Everybody knows that actions that
> "continue as unblocked" are blocked again quite often. If the blocking
> vampire was Waked, he even doesn't need another Wake to block again!
Also kills Imbued. A lot.
> Armor of Vitality
> -----------------
> Melee weapons aren't so popular to hose them, and if there are no
> swords to break, it's much worse than Rolling with the Punches, Skin
> of Steel and Superior Mettle. Oh yes, you can prevent damage from
> Carrion Crows, but Soak is still better for that.
1 blood to prevent 3 damage you spread around? Not that bad. Often more
useful than Skin of Steel (due to the Carrion Crows). And can stop
Aggrivated damage. And stops 3 damage at inferior. Not horrible.
> Burden the Mind
> -----------------
> This card enforces the horrible weenies, and we all know that they
> must be eliminated, not enforced.
Hmm. Unconvinced. It kinda hoses superstar decks that block a lot, but
not so much that it matters so much.
> Camera Phone
> -------------
> Permanent +1 bleed for free? Really??? Again, great thanks from the
> disciplineless weenies. They don't need 20+ Computer Hackings anymore,
> 10-15 Camera Phones will replace them more than adequately, especially
> in non-combat metagames, and leave more space for dodges and other
> tricks.
Uhh, probably not. You still need to equip. You could bleed with a
computer hacking once and bleed normally once, and you are still ahead
of the Camera Phone. The Camera Phone needs to take 4 actions to beat a
single Computer Hacking (Hack for 2, bleed 1, bleed 1, bleed 1 = 5;
equip phone, bleed 2, bleed 2, bleed 2 = 6). It is ok. But hardly ground
shaking.
> Mesu Bedshet
> -------------
> This is the most broken card in the entire set.
Uhh, ok?
> Getting a new vampire costs 4 transfers + 1 pool. If it's younger, you
> get additional +2 transfers and +2 pool, so you gain +6 transfers and
> +3 pool total just for an action that costs 1 blood. That's too good,
> especially transfer-wise.
The Nosferatu get to Kindred Intelligence for free. They get 4 transfers
and 1 pool for free that way. Not a big deal. Mesu costs a blood and
only pays the 2 pool sometimes. When it doesn't, it is worse than
Kindred Intelligence. When it does, it is better (in the sense that it
gains you 1 extra pool, as it costs you 1 in the first place). Hardly
earth shaking.
> Let's compare this to the existing cards.
Let's.
> Yes, there are actions like
> Kindred Intelligence and Clotho's Gift that give you another vampire,
> but you get only +4 transfers and +1 pool (a cost of getting the
> additional vampire in "normal" way).
Yep. Mesu costs a blood (the same as Clotho's and worse than Kindred).
Sometimes it gives you 2 pool (which is a reasonable balance, 'cause
sometimes it costs a blood and gives you nothing).
> With Mesu Bedshet, you have absolutely no problems in getting a huge
> horde.
Except you need to pay for them. And you need to be older than the
Mesu'd vampires for it to be more effective than a Kindred Intelligence.
So you need to have a bunch of young vampires and then enough older
vampires to be able to have one in your opening draw so that you can
effectively play the Mesu. But not enough to draw them with Mesu when
you play it. And you need to be playing a pure Settite crypt. A lot of
infrastructure you are ignoring.
This card is reasonably good. And once and a while will be awsome. But
in general? Not so much.
> Narrow Minds
> -------------
> So, we really need to hose bounce, aren't we?
Apparently.
> Bounce is the only
> remedy from the reckless powerbleed that would ruin the entire game -
> and now we are cutting the branch where we are sitting.
Not necessarily. Just making bounce cost one more. Which is probably
appropriate in general.
> Surely, !Malks will play this card! Narrow Minds is going to
> be in *EVERY* bleeding deck, and it will negatively affect the game.
But then they can't bounce well either. A reasonable trade off. Maybe
folks will start to focus on bleed reduction instead...
> Preternatural Strength
> -----------------------
> OK, this card is not broken, but it still is much more powerful than
> other strength-enhancing cards. Getting +2 strength permanently just
> for a +2 stealth action and 1 blood is too good.
Hardly. It keeps you from using Torn Signpost, which is the most
effective Potence card there is. So you can either use TS for the +2
strength or Preternatural. If you are using the Preturnatural, how many
are in the deck? Enough so you draw them early to play, but not too many
so that you don't choke on them mid game? How many is that? Why not just
plan on using TS in the first place?
Again, pretty good. Sure. But that is about it.
> Reckless Agitation
> -------------------
> This one is clearly too powerful, despite the cost and requirements.
> KRC deals no more than 3 damage to your prey, Conservative Agitation
> deals 4, but only until somebody gets ousted, Parity Shift works only
> when your prey has more pool. This one deals FIVE damage to your prey,
> and you will generally have to push it just 2-3 times to oust. Voter
> Captivation wasn't changed, Awe is the same, so pushing Recksless
> Agitation isn't too difficult. Too powerful.
How many are you using? You can't play it in an endgame (as it has to
hit two *other* players). If you have enough that you have them early
and often, you can't use them in the end game. If you mix them up, you
don't have them early when you want them. Powerful. Sure. But not much
more than that.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man
Akantes
lot better. Like, with thinking.
Open Dossier C
Cardtype: Reaction
Only usable by a vampire how has been choosen for contract on the
acting minion. This vampire attempts to block with +2 intercept and
gets an optional maneuver in the resulting combat if successful.
Usable by a tapped vampire even if the intercept is not yet needed.
[DRAFT]: (Requires Assamite): +1 intercept.
If you read it right, it requires a vampire who has been chosen for a
contract on the acting minion. You choose the vampire who has the
contract, and you play the card with the vampire who is hired for the
contract.
Example: Joe "Boot" Hill has a contract on Arika. Arika acts, Joe gets
to play open dossier. It's totally different matter if Joe can catch
Arika or not, but it's Joe who plays Open Dossier, not Arika, for what
I have understood from the card.
Peter D Bakija
Akantes <aka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arika or not, but it's Joe who plays Open Dossier, not Arika, for what
> I have understood from the card.
You are correct--Open Dossier is effectively a 2nd Tradition for the
Assamites to use against the targets of their contracts.
Morgan Vening
<pd...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>In article <1191192095.9...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Akantes <aka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Arika or not, but it's Joe who plays Open Dossier, not Arika, for what
>> I have understood from the card.
>
>You are correct--Open Dossier is effectively a 2nd Tradition for the
>Assamites to use against the targets of their contracts.
And an important part of Open Dossier, is it's NOT just Assamites that
can use it. While Samedi might not use it all that often (Dirty
Contracts), Black Hand could definately use it. Ministry + Open
Dossier = very good for a BH vamp without access to Auspex (though a
lot of BH vamps do have Auspex).
Morgan Vening
Akantes
> can use it. While Samedi might not use it all that often (Dirty
> Contracts), Black Hand could definately use it. Ministry + Open
> Dossier = very good for a BH vamp without access to Auspex (though a
> lot of BH vamps do have Auspex).
>
> Morgan Vening
Except that you need a wake to play Ministry + Open Dossier.
Salem
or just be untapped to start with.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Oortje
You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and
believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you
stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
choose man! save yourself the frustration of the game or be happy
methuselah for a little longer.
Ector
> Ector, I think you should read the wording on Open Dossier better. A
> lot better. Like, with thinking.
>
Here's the updated newsletter, if TheLasombra wishes to archive it:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Oct 1, 1:41 am, Akantes <akan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ector, I think you should read the wording on Open Dossier better. A
> lot better. Like, with thinking.
>
Yes, the misunderstanding is my fault, thanks for pointing it out.
Here's the updated newsletter, if TheLasombra wishes to archive it:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malkavian Antitribu Newsletter, September 2007
1. INTRODUCTION
I didn't want to write a new issue of my newsletter. I have no mood,
and no time. I'm divorcing with my wife,
and trying to leave VTES at all, after I failed to convince my players
to replace the stupid LotN prerelease
format "recommended" by WW to the normal booster draft. Looks like
nobody considers this game a serious
sport, so is there any reason to waste my time for "just a
recreation"? I can play some computer game, or
read a book.
Unfortunately, my sense of duty was stronger - it appears that I
simply cannot move to the next month without
a newsletter! :) So, I present you a sort of LotN review. I definitely
may be wrong (as anyone who tries to
do something), but at least I'm trying...
There are no !Malks in this set, but a lot of cards can be used in
various !Malkavian decks. So, if you
wonder "what is !Malkavian in this newsletter", I can tell you -
"point of view".
2. CRAPPY CARDS (aka WALLPAPERS) OF LOTN
I *hate* the crappy cards. Each card should be playable at least in
one deck archetype. If you open the card
that is completely unplayable, you feel yourself robbed. One of the
reasons for my former love in VTES was
almost absolute lack of crap. Unfortunately, Lords of Night has some
unplayable cards, including rares, but
not very much (something like 10%). Some greedy CCG producers print
75% of crap or even more!
Agent of Power
--------------
Sometimes you need a Discipline just for a single card in your deck,
but nobody will wait until he get both
the card and Agent of Power in his hand. If you have several cards
that your vampires cannot play, Agent of
Power won't save you; look for Infernal Pact or some equipment like
Sargon Fragment. Uniqueness makes the
card even worse.
Ambulance
----------
"If this action is blocked again, burn this card". This is a death
sentence for a 1-pool equipment. Everybody
knows that actions that "continue as unblocked" are blocked again
quite often. If the blocking vampire was
Waked, he even doesn't need another Wake to block again!
Armor of Vitality
-----------------
Melee weapons aren't so popular to hose them, and if there are no
swords to break, it's much worse than
Rolling with the Punches, Skin of Steel and Superior Mettle. Oh yes,
you can prevent damage from Carrion
Crows, but Soak is still better for that.
Bestow Vigor
-------------
You spend an action (though you untap after it) and a blood to give an
ally inferior Fortitude in combat for
2 turns. So what? You need an ally to play this, and you need the
Fortitude cards, and, finally, all you get
from these complicated combos is some protection for the ally? In 99%
cases the ally doesn't worth it, or you
can use much more powerful cards like Heaven's Gate. If you plan to
use Bestow Vigor on vampires, why not
Shared Strength? Superior Fortitude without any actions, and good
surprise for your opponents.
Community Justice
-----------------
Who plays cards that work only after opponent's diablerie?
Divine Image
------------
What do you plan to achieve with this card? Bleed at +1, even with +1
strength but at -1 stealth doesn't cost
2 blood. Rush with +1 strength still doesn't cost 2 blood. What else?
Kpist m/45
-----------
While AK-47 is very cornercase, but playable in the decks without
Celerity that have some way to get it
cheaper, this one is completely useless. Oh yes, Rounds, I know, but
they are far less flexible than
Pursuits, Blurs and others. Without Rounds you will get the same
damage as from .44 Magnum, but for 3 pool,
and this one cannot be Concealed.
Resume the Coil
----------------
Who is planning to get into torpor so othen that he needs cards to
reduce the resque cost? Vampires that
resque cheaper are different matter, but wasting cards for that? No
way.
Trophy: Library
----------------
Getting a Trophy is rather difficult, so nobody is going to make
somebody Red List and then burn him just for
+2 hand size. AFAIK, Elder Library is not uber-popular.
Trophy: Revered
----------------
+2 bleed isn't a good reward for burning a Red List. You may get +1
from Camera Phone just for an action.
3. HORROR CARDS OF LOTN (CARDS THAT SHOULD NEVER BEEN PRINTED)
Burden the Mind
-----------------
This card enforces the horrible weenies, and we all know that they
must be eliminated, not enforced. Why this
is worse than Pentex Subversion? Because only THAT vampire can burn
the card; so, actually it means "no Wakes
for one turn and waste an action on the next turn". It's also cheaper
and not unique, so a weenie with
Parhthenon can play *two* Burdens in one turn and completely lock
prey's Wakes.
I don't think that !Malks need this card. We play a fair game of
"stealth against intercept", not "our
numbers will overcome your Wakes".
Camera Phone
-------------
Permanent +1 bleed for free? Really??? Again, great thanks from the
disciplineless weenies. They don't need
20+ Computer Hackings anymore, 10-15 Camera Phones will replace them
more than adequately, especially in
non-combat metagames, and leave more space for dodges and other
tricks. Protean weenies/Shadow Court Satyrs
are going to be even more happy with this card: they already had
wonderful combat defense, but lacked bleed
enhancers. Now they have everything.
decks. Does anybody want to see a large
Setite blocking all rushers and playing Mental Mazes for free without
tapping? Blocking rushes is simple
enough most of the time... I thought that WW is trying to enforce
Rush, but such cards are killing it!
Mesu Bedshet
-------------
This is the most broken card in the entire set.
Getting a new vampire costs 4 transfers + 1 pool. If it's younger, you
get additional +2 transfers and +2
pool, so you gain +6 transfers and +3 pool total just for an action
that costs 1 blood. That's too good,
especially transfer-wise. Setites are going to spread like rats.
Let's compare this to the existing cards. Yes, there are actions like
Kindred Intelligence and Clotho's Gift
that give you another vampire, but you get only +4 transfers and +1
pool (a cost of getting the additional
vampire in "normal" way). And there are Governs/Founders of the Ebony
Kingdom that provide up to +4 transfers
and +4 pool, but you need to have a younger vampire in your
uncontrolled region - so if you want to spread a
horde, you will have to pay 4 transfers and 1 pool for each new vamp,
and this effectively neutralizes the
threat of over-spreading. How often did you paid for another vamp just
to be able to get pool from your
Governs?
With Mesu Bedshet, you have absolutely no problems in getting a huge
much.
Narrow Minds
-------------
So, we really need to hose bounce, aren't we? Bounce is the only
remedy from the reckless powerbleed that
would ruin the entire game - and now we are cutting the branch where
we are sitting.
You may say that increasing cost is not much, people will still play
bounce, but, you know, if a
stealth-bleed manages to slow its prey, it's almost guaranteed to oust
it before it ousts its own prey. And
Narrow Minds results in loss of 5-6 extra blood per game that could be
easily converted into 5-6 more pool
via Blood Dolls and Vessels.
If designers tried to enforce stealth-bleed, they could make more
stealth (or better stealth), or more bleed, but hosing bounce wasn't
very clever. Surely, !Malks will play this card! Narrow Minds is going
to be in *EVERY* bleeding deck, and it will negatively affect the
game.
Preternatural Strength
-----------------------
OK, this card is not broken, but it still is much more powerful than
other strength-enhancing cards. Getting +2 strength permanently just
for a +2 stealth action and 1 blood is too good. This greatly
diminishes the value of vampire's additional strength. Yes, I know
that cards like Heart of the City and Pulse didn't kill the transient
cards providing +2 bleed, but these cards cost more than 1 blood, and,
more importantly, a vampire with Pulse is a target #1 for all rushes,
while a vampire with Preternatural Strength is a person to avoid :)
Besides, you can use +2 bleed only once per turn, while +2 strength
can be used several times per turn, either in multirush decks or in
blocking decks.
On the other hand, Rush decks really need a boost... But nevertheless,
it's strange to see that any vamp with superior Potence can become
Lazverinus with a single action.
Reckless Agitation
-------------------
This one is clearly too powerful, despite the cost and requirements.
KRC deals no more than 3 damage to your
prey, Conservative Agitation deals 4, but only until somebody gets
ousted, Parity Shift works only when your
prey has more pool. This one deals FIVE damage to your prey, and you
will generally have to push it just 2-3
times to oust. Voter Captivation wasn't changed, Awe is the same, so
pushing Recksless Agitation isn't too
difficult. The card is clearly overpowered.
Unholy Penance
---------------
Combat Ends for 1 blood is OK. S:CE and untap is very good, but "S:CE
and +1 bleed until you waste an action"
may appear to be too good, especially in S&B decks. When your Rush
prey is attempting to stop your Setite
S&B, you will not only foil his action, but also get +1 bleed against
him? Or you were trying to play
Reckless Agitation, your prey blocked, you can play Unholy Penance,
untap and bleed with +1 bleed?
Setites already had the second best Combat Ends in the whole game:
Majesty. I don't think that S&B decks
needed something even better.
Vessel
-------
This card is a "dream of all stealth-bleeds". You don't need to Wash
that Blood Doll anymore, just convert
your own Blood Dolls to Vessels. Pool cost is generally not that
crucial for S&B, but the ability to play
another master card really is. This card empowers S&B a lot: play more
masters and burn your prey's Blood
Dolls, all for 1 pool! Non-aggressive decks will still prefer Blood
Dolls, since they are free, and you can
gain pool immediately.
!Malk S&B decks will definitely play Vessels instead of Blood Dolls.
But I'm pretty sure that S&B was
powerful enough without such hosing toys...
4. GOOD CARDS FOR !MALKS
Blithe Acceptance
-----------------
Having +1 permanent stealth is good. You will need stealth to push it,
though, since it doesn't have inbuilt
+1 stealth, but still. This card isn't going to be very good in S&B,
because it makes the vampire a target,
but it will be very good in the various "fetch-decks" and combo-decks.
Use one Forgotten Labyrinth to push
it, and you will be able to push several crucial parts of your combo.
Fillip
-------
!Malks with superior Auspex are often used as a support to play
Telepathic Misdirections. Having a good mix
of Fillips and On the Qui Vives allows you to wake when you need and
always replace the card.
Into Thin Air
-------------
Almost strictly better than Lost in Crowds, but doesn't get replaced
until your untap. Nice to have a pair of
these for extreme cases... Again, this will appear in combo decks,
where pushing the crucial part of your combo is much more important
than having a full hand.
Jericho Founding
----------------
Finally. I tired of the decks with all sorts of permacept locations.
Malajit Chandramouli
---------------------
Again, the card for combo-decks that need to push the crucial actions.
Powerbase: Zurich
Kumpania
---------
Good Ranvos location. Just one pool, no blood burning to get
intercept. Going to be popular.
Omael Kuman
------------
You prefer long range? Here's your dream. Unlimited Selective
Silences, even without superior Quietus.
This card would be much better without the word "younger", though.
Does anybody fear that Potence-weenie will become too strong?
Especially considering the fact that Street Creed costs a blood?
though.
decent. Will almost inevitably appear in Animalism weenie decks.
Another good combo is Cock Robin that will untap after recruiting
Stray.
Ector
> In article <1191177558.851649.75...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > Ambulance
> > ----------
> > "If this action is blocked again, burn this card". This is a death
> > sentence for a 1-pool equipment. Everybody knows that actions that
> > "continue as unblocked" are blocked again quite often. If the blocking
> > vampire was Waked, he even doesn't need another Wake to block again!
>
> Also kills Imbued. A lot.
kill Imbued?
After all, you can kill Incapacitated Imbued even without Ambulance.
> > Armor of Vitality
> > -----------------
> > Melee weapons aren't so popular to hose them, and if there are no
> > swords to break, it's much worse than Rolling with the Punches, Skin
> > of Steel and Superior Mettle. Oh yes, you can prevent damage from
> > Carrion Crows, but Soak is still better for that.
>
> 1 blood to prevent 3 damage you spread around? Not that bad. Often more
> useful than Skin of Steel (due to the Carrion Crows). And can stop
> Aggrivated damage. And stops 3 damage at inferior. Not horrible.
Not horrible for sure, but in most cases worse than the existing
cards. Who is going to use it? So, effectively it's a wallpaper.
> > Burden the Mind
> > -----------------
> > This card enforces the horrible weenies, and we all know that they
> > must be eliminated, not enforced.
>
> Hmm. Unconvinced. It kinda hoses superstar decks that block a lot, but
> not so much that it matters so much.
Superstar decks? How many vampires are you hope to influence if your
predator plays disciplineless weenie? If you're playing Toreador
Princes with Guns, for instance, your vampires are 7-10 cap. No
superstars, just good large vamps. You will have not more than two of
them, and your predator can lock BOTH.
It doesn't matter so much? Really? You know, a weenie attacks prey's
Wakes. If it manages to make you pay 1 pool for each Wake for entire
turn and force you to waste an action on your next turn (that can be
blocked, BTW!), you are going to avoid blocking or losing some pool.
Both variants are quite bad for you.
> > Camera Phone
> > -------------
> > Permanent +1 bleed for free? Really??? Again, great thanks from the
> > disciplineless weenies. They don't need 20+ Computer Hackings anymore,
> > 10-15 Camera Phones will replace them more than adequately, especially
> > in non-combat metagames, and leave more space for dodges and other
> > tricks.
>
> Uhh, probably not. You still need to equip. You could bleed with a
> computer hacking once and bleed normally once, and you are still ahead
> of the Camera Phone. The Camera Phone needs to take 4 actions to beat a
> single Computer Hacking (Hack for 2, bleed 1, bleed 1, bleed 1 = 5;
> equip phone, bleed 2, bleed 2, bleed 2 = 6). It is ok. But hardly ground
> shaking.
Please think about it some more. We all know that weenies with
Hackings almost always oust their first prey, but they tend to "run
out of gas". A grandprey usually has some time to prepare, and,
probably, even deploy Aranthebes. Now they NEVER "run out of gas", and
even Aranthebes won't save you from 7-8 weenies with Phones.
>
> > Getting a new vampire costs 4 transfers + 1 pool. If it's younger, you
> > get additional +2 transfers and +2 pool, so you gain +6 transfers and
> > +3 pool total just for an action that costs 1 blood. That's too good,
> > especially transfer-wise.
>
> The Nosferatu get to Kindred Intelligence for free. They get 4 transfers
> and 1 pool for free that way. Not a big deal. Mesu costs a blood and
> only pays the 2 pool sometimes. When it doesn't, it is worse than
> Kindred Intelligence. When it does, it is better (in the sense that it
> gains you 1 extra pool, as it costs you 1 in the first place). Hardly
> earth shaking.
My whole point is: in the right deck, you will almost always get those
2 pool.
I completely understand that building a whole Setite crypt isn't very
easy, and this is a serious limitation. But it's POSSIBLE.
Here's the sample crypt for 3-4 groups:
2X Ankh-sen-Sutekh 6 obf PRE SER
2X Ezekiel 6 obf pot PRE SER
Halim Bey 6 obf tha DOM SER
Renenet 5 ser OBF PRE
Zhenga 5 obf pre SER
2X Black Lotus 5 aus obf ser DOM
Sahira Siraj 4 obf ser tha
Marla Kenyon 4 ser PRE
Reverend Djoser Jones 3 pre ser
The plan is simple: summon a LOT of Waters of Duat and bleed your
prey, using Night Moves or just traditional stealth. A Waters deck
should have a lot of Obfuscate skill cards, so it would be quite easy
to put one of them on your 6-cap. After that, you are GUARANTEED to
get +6 transfers and +3 pool from Mesu Bedshet, since all vampires in
your crypt are younger Setites. The deck is going to develop like a
rocket, and it will add some huge bleeds to the pain (probably, with
Public Trust). Note that it will even have a vampire with superior
Dominate to play Deflections!!!
Hope this clearly demonstrates why Mesu Bedshet is broken. Even if you
hit a second copy of the vampire you already have, you will still get
another vamp with 2 pool that you can eventually claim, and you can
still hope to get the new vampire next time. With a luck, you will get
two 7-caps and be able to play two Mesu Bedshets per turn!
>
> > Narrow Minds
> > -------------
> > So, we really need to hose bounce, aren't we?
>
> Apparently.
Hosing defense to empower aggression is just stupid. Spying Mission is
a good card since it lets you avoid damaging wrong target and provides
+2 bleed in the future. Inferior Revelations is decent: you have to
spend an action and 1 blood to discard bounce (or be sure that there
are no bounce). But False Resonance is awful, because it really allows
bleeder to pass a heavy bleed. Narrow Minds belongs to the same
category.
> > Bounce is the only
> > remedy from the reckless powerbleed that would ruin the entire game -
> > and now we are cutting the branch where we are sitting.
>
> Not necessarily. Just making bounce cost one more. Which is probably
> appropriate in general.
Did you read what I wrote? Blood is rarely unneeded; a good deck has
some blood management; if your vampires have extra blood, you will
regain it with Blood Dolls, of no, you will feed them, etc. etc.
Narrow Minds forces you to spend 5-8 more blood in the whole game,
which is A LOT. And each time your vampire is forced to hunt instead
of doing something useful to oust your prey, S&B can celebrate - it
will have more time to oust you.
> > Surely, !Malks will play this card! Narrow Minds is going to
> > be in *EVERY* bleeding deck, and it will negatively affect the game.
>
> But then they can't bounce well either. A reasonable trade off. Maybe
> folks will start to focus on bleed reduction instead...
No, !Malks will manage to pay 1 more blood for their Telepathic
Misdirections, as well as most other aggressive decks. After all, they
spend their blood quite rarely. compare this to some combat deck that
really needs every drop of blood.
Bleed reduction will NEVER replace bounce. Bounce works better in the
aggressive decks, while bleed reduction - in the defensive decks like
Auspex weenies.
> > Preternatural Strength
> > -----------------------
> > OK, this card is not broken, but it still is much more powerful than
> > other strength-enhancing cards. Getting +2 strength permanently just
> > for a +2 stealth action and 1 blood is too good.
>
> Hardly. It keeps you from using Torn Signpost, which is the most
> effective Potence card there is. So you can either use TS for the +2
> strength or Preternatural. If you are using the Preturnatural, how many
> are in the deck? Enough so you draw them early to play, but not too many
> so that you don't choke on them mid game? How many is that? Why not just
> plan on using TS in the first place?
It's much better to have 8 PretStrength in your deck than having 8 TS,
since you will have much more than 8 combats :)
Yes, they are harder to cycle, but not for a typical Potence weenie
that usually fields at least 4-5 vampires.
>
> > Reckless Agitation
> > -------------------
> > This one is clearly too powerful, despite the cost and requirements.
> > KRC deals no more than 3 damage to your prey, Conservative Agitation
> > deals 4, but only until somebody gets ousted, Parity Shift works only
> > when your prey has more pool. This one deals FIVE damage to your prey,
> > and you will generally have to push it just 2-3 times to oust. Voter
> > Captivation wasn't changed, Awe is the same, so pushing Recksless
> > Agitation isn't too difficult. Too powerful.
>
> How many are you using? You can't play it in an endgame (as it has to
> hit two *other* players). If you have enough that you have them early
> and often, you can't use them in the end game. If you mix them up, you
> don't have them early when you want them. Powerful. Sure. But not much
> more than that.
Oh, come on. "You cannot use it in the endgame" is just a wonderful
reason to make 3-2 deals with your predator :) You have ONLY Reckless
Agitations in your deck, so you can say "Look, I will be absolutely
powerless, so you will oust me easily". And if your predator cannot
oust you before you start playing 2-3 Agitations each turn and cannot
stop you, he'd better agree to split the table, or you will just deal
with his predator and kill him.
Besides, we are talking about Setites voting decks, and they are quite
able to add some bleed. After you oust 2-3 players, your position will
be much better than the last player's position...
Yours,
Ector.
Blooded Sand
> I hope you aren't suggesting putting this in some deck specifically to
> kill Imbued?
> After all, you can kill Incapacitated Imbued even without Ambulance.
For combat rush decks this is going to be a strong card Ector. And
also, if you burn an imbued wit it, your vampire does not take the
damage due to convicotion burning.
Read. The. Card.
> My whole point is: in the right deck, you will almost always get those
> 2 pool.
> I completely understand that building a whole Setite crypt isn't very
> easy, and this is a serious limitation. But it's POSSIBLE.
> Here's the sample crypt for 3-4 groups:
>
> 2X Ankh-sen-Sutekh 6 obf PRE SER
> 2X Ezekiel 6 obf pot PRE SER
> Halim Bey 6 obf tha DOM SER
> Renenet 5 ser OBF PRE
> Zhenga 5 obf pre SER
> 2X Black Lotus 5 aus obf ser DOM
> Sahira Siraj 4 obf ser tha
> Marla Kenyon 4 ser PRE
> Reverend Djoser Jones 3 pre ser
Opening crypt you draw Reverend, Marla, Sahira and Black lotus. What
now?
> It's much better to have 8 PretStrength in your deck than having 8 TS,
> since you will have much more than 8 combats :)
> Yes, they are harder to cycle, but not for a typical Potence weenie
> that usually fields at least 4-5 vampires.
Combat decks really need to flow well, else they jam. Horribly.
Getting the 3-4 PS you cannot play in your hand at once, means very
bad things. So yes, its good, but i cannot see myse;f playing it to
the exclusion of other ot +str cards. Although i can see a potential
increase in the use of fists of death/fire in the blood/ (gasp) Death
of my conscience, as death will even allow you to flush the extra PS's
out of your hand.
> > > Reckless Agitation
> Oh, come on. "You cannot use it in the endgame" is just a wonderful
> reason to make 3-2 deals with your predator :) You have ONLY Reckless
> Agitations in your deck, so you can say "Look, I will be absolutely
> powerless, so you will oust me easily". And if your predator cannot
> oust you before you start playing 2-3 Agitations each turn and cannot
> stop you, he'd better agree to split the table, or you will just deal
> with his predator and kill him.
Yes, because Indie vote decks were just ripping holes in the ournament
scene, same as Cam vote decks....
> Besides, we are talking about Setites voting decks, and they are quite
> able to add some bleed. After you oust 2-3 players, your position will
> be much better than the last player's position...
Uh, you noted it says Indepenedent, not Setite, right? And you did
notice how Pre hs been spread out in this expansion? Never mind the
fact the Gio have DOM and Assamite now have Loss? And ravnos, with
week, well.
Peter D Bakija
> I hope you aren't suggesting putting this in some deck specifically to
> kill Imbued?
> After all, you can kill Incapacitated Imbued even without Ambulance.
I kinda am suggesting that, yes. It is a card that has two abilities,
both of which are useful. And the ability to burn the Imbued is
significantly better than the default version of pillowfacing the
Imbued because it is at +1 stealth and doesn't incur the conviction
punishment. So if you are playing a deck that is kind of fighty and
can send the Imbued to the hospital on a regular basis? Ambulance is
probably a good inclusion--it makes pillowfacing the Imbued much
easier and also has a good secondary use (continuing action) if there
are no Imbued. And even if it is just in there only to kill the
Imbued, a single card slot as a lark isn't that questionable.
> Not horrible for sure, but in most cases worse than the existing
> cards. Who is going to use it? So, effectively it's a wallpaper.
Not convinced. If you see a lot of combat, especially Animalism
combat, it is probably pretty good.
> It doesn't matter so much? Really? You know, a weenie attacks prey's
> Wakes. If it manages to make you pay 1 pool for each Wake for entire
> turn and force you to waste an action on your next turn (that can be
> blocked, BTW!), you are going to avoid blocking or losing some pool.
> Both variants are quite bad for you.
Sometimes you die. I'm not seeing this card as significantly worse in
any situation than a whole lot of other cards already in existance.
> Please think about it some more. We all know that weenies with
> Hackings almost always oust their first prey, but they tend to "run
> out of gas". A grandprey usually has some time to prepare, and,
> probably, even deploy Aranthebes. Now they NEVER "run out of gas", and
> even Aranthebes won't save you from 7-8 weenies with Phones.
They already had access to free +1 bleed retainers and computer
Hacking. The Cell Phone isn't really making them work any better.
Really.
> My whole point is: in the right deck, you will almost always get those
> 2 pool.
Which requires you building your deck in a certain way and hoping you
draw well.
> I completely understand that building a whole Setite crypt isn't very
> easy, and this is a serious limitation. But it's POSSIBLE.
Sure it is possible. But it is a hamstringing.
> Here's the sample crypt for 3-4 groups:
>
> 2X Ankh-sen-Sutekh 6 obf PRE SER
> 2X Ezekiel 6 obf pot PRE SER
> Halim Bey 6 obf tha DOM SER
> Renenet 5 ser OBF PRE
> Zhenga 5 obf pre SER
> 2X Black Lotus 5 aus obf ser DOM
> Sahira Siraj 4 obf ser tha
> Marla Kenyon 4 ser PRE
> Reverend Djoser Jones 3 pre ser
And in your opening draw, you get a 3, 2x4s, and a 5. So you Mesu out
a 6 cap. And get the 6 cap out. And then Mesu out another 6 cap. You
are slowed down a bunch, and the Mesu's aren't doing you anything that
a Clotho's Gift wasn't already doing.
Yeah, you might get out a 6 cap first. And then you still might not
draw an Obf master, and you might keep Mesu-ing out 6 caps for the
first 2 or 3 tries.
Once and a while, Mesu will be gold, sure. But most of the time, it
isn't going to be any better than Clotho's Gift, on average.
> The plan is simple: summon a LOT of Waters of Duat and bleed your
> prey, using Night Moves or just traditional stealth.
If you are using a LOT of Waters, how many Mesus are you going to have
in the deck?
> Hope this clearly demonstrates why Mesu Bedshet is broken.
It does not.
> Hosing defense to empower aggression is just stupid. Spying Mission is
> a good card since it lets you avoid damaging wrong target and provides
> +2 bleed in the future. Inferior Revelations is decent: you have to
> spend an action and 1 blood to discard bounce (or be sure that there
> are no bounce). But False Resonance is awful, because it really allows
> bleeder to pass a heavy bleed. Narrow Minds belongs to the same
> category.
Not if you wanted to make Bleed Bounce cost an extra blood. Which
apparently the designers wanted to do.
> Did you read what I wrote?
Yup.
> Blood is rarely unneeded; a good deck has
> some blood management; if your vampires have extra blood, you will
> regain it with Blood Dolls, of no, you will feed them, etc. etc.
Yup.
> Narrow Minds forces you to spend 5-8 more blood in the whole game,
> which is A LOT. And each time your vampire is forced to hunt instead
> of doing something useful to oust your prey, S&B can celebrate - it
> will have more time to oust you.
Yup. It is a card that makes Bleed Bounce less attractive. Yes. Which
helps S+B some (but hinders it some too, as S+B often uses its own
bounce--if you are an S+B deck, and you are using Narrow Minds, are
you using your own Deflections, too? If not, how are you not getting
bled to death yourself?). But also makes every strategy in the game
that *doesn't* use bounce a little more attractive.
> No, !Malks will manage to pay 1 more blood for their Telepathic
> Misdirections, as well as most other aggressive decks. After all, they
> spend their blood quite rarely. compare this to some combat deck that
> really needs every drop of blood.
The combat decks aren't using Bounce. They are using Combat.
The !Malks will pay the extra 1 for the bounce, but then so will their
prey. And the Bounce will still be good.
> Bleed reduction will NEVER replace bounce. Bounce works better in the
> aggressive decks, while bleed reduction - in the defensive decks like
> Auspex weenies.
Well, if people get sick of paying the 1 extra blood for the bounce...
> It's much better to have 8 PretStrength in your deck than having 8 TS,
> since you will have much more than 8 combats :)
Not so much. You play 2 or 3 of them, and then have 5 dead cards.
> Yes, they are harder to cycle, but not for a typical Potence weenie
> that usually fields at least 4-5 vampires.
I assure you that I am playing more Potence Weenie decks that you are,
in a historical sense. And I'm not incredibly impressed by
Preturnatural Strength. It is not bad. And will certainly see use in
some Super Star decks ('cause, ya know, Enkidu can become
Preturnaturally strong and then Freak and then go kill everyone). But
isn't really gonna replace TS as a card of choice in combat decks, no.
> Oh, come on. "You cannot use it in the endgame" is just a wonderful
> reason to make 3-2 deals with your predator :)
Good luck with that.
> Besides, we are talking about Setites voting decks, and they are quite
> able to add some bleed. After you oust 2-3 players, your position will
> be much better than the last player's position...
Maybe. Or maybe you have been voted down a lot, as you don't have any
significant titles. Or ran out of blood 'cause you didn't draw into
your Voter Caps.
-Peter
Ector
> On Oct 3, 5:08 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > I hope you aren't suggesting putting this in some deck specifically to
> > kill Imbued?
> > After all, you can kill Incapacitated Imbued even without Ambulance.
>
> I kinda am suggesting that, yes. It is a card that has two abilities,
> both of which are useful. And the ability to burn the Imbued is
> significantly better than the default version of pillowfacing the
> Imbued because it is at +1 stealth and doesn't incur the conviction
> punishment. So if you are playing a deck that is kind of fighty and
> can send the Imbued to the hospital on a regular basis? Ambulance is
> probably a good inclusion--it makes pillowfacing the Imbued much
> easier and also has a good secondary use (continuing action) if there
> are no Imbued. And even if it is just in there only to kill the
> Imbued, a single card slot as a lark isn't that questionable.
in your deck? One? It may appear too late. Two? Six?
Do you realize that if you're playing a combat-heavy deck, you
generally don't have much stealth, and the Imbued can simply block
equipping your Ambulance? Or even double-block your burning action at
+1 stealth?
Yes, I've read the card and I know what it does. Still, it isn't going
to be played.
> > Not horrible for sure, but in most cases worse than the existing
> > cards. Who is going to use it? So, effectively it's a wallpaper.
>
> Not convinced. If you see a lot of combat, especially Animalism
> combat, it is probably pretty good.
I've never seen such thing as "Animalism combat deck". You mean
Carrion Crows + presses? Soak will prevent the damage from Crows, and
it's much more versatile.
> > It doesn't matter so much? Really? You know, a weenie attacks prey's
> > Wakes. If it manages to make you pay 1 pool for each Wake for entire
> > turn and force you to waste an action on your next turn (that can be
> > blocked, BTW!), you are going to avoid blocking or losing some pool.
> > Both variants are quite bad for you.
>
> Sometimes you die. I'm not seeing this card as significantly worse in
> any situation than a whole lot of other cards already in existance.
It's worse than Pentex Subversion, since you can ask other players to
burn Pentex. It's worse than Misdirection, and, really, it's worse
than all previously existing cards.
> > Please think about it some more. We all know that weenies with
> > Hackings almost always oust their first prey, but they tend to "run
> > out of gas". A grandprey usually has some time to prepare, and,
> > probably, even deploy Aranthebes. Now they NEVER "run out of gas", and
> > even Aranthebes won't save you from 7-8 weenies with Phones.
>
> They already had access to free +1 bleed retainers and computer
> Hacking. The Cell Phone isn't really making them work any better.
> Really.
Free +1 bleed retainers are unique. And they are quite popular, so
they may get contested.
> > My whole point is: in the right deck, you will almost always get those
> > 2 pool.
>
> Which requires you building your deck in a certain way and hoping you
> draw well.
Some decks are already "built in the needed way". The idea of Waters +
Bimas isn't mine - Nerijus played that deck at our Nationals.
> > I completely understand that building a whole Setite crypt isn't very
> > easy, and this is a serious limitation. But it's POSSIBLE.
>
> Sure it is possible. But it is a hamstringing.
Not that much. Every horde deck needs a lot of small vampires. You'd
end up with roughly the same crypt without Mesu.
> > Here's the sample crypt for 3-4 groups:
>
> > 2X Ankh-sen-Sutekh 6 obf PRE SER
> > 2X Ezekiel 6 obf pot PRE SER
> > Halim Bey 6 obf tha DOM SER
> > Renenet 5 ser OBF PRE
> > Zhenga 5 obf pre SER
> > 2X Black Lotus 5 aus obf ser DOM
> > Sahira Siraj 4 obf ser tha
> > Marla Kenyon 4 ser PRE
> > Reverend Djoser Jones 3 pre ser
>
> And in your opening draw, you get a 3, 2x4s, and a 5. So you Mesu out
> a 6 cap. And get the 6 cap out. And then Mesu out another 6 cap. You
> are slowed down a bunch, and the Mesu's aren't doing you anything that
> a Clotho's Gift wasn't already doing.
Peter, do you belive in the theory of probability? :) A chance of
getting one of my five 6-caps is 93%. If I won't get them, I will just
influence one vampire and then draw another vampire. Shit happens, but
it doesn't mean that the idea is bad.
> Yeah, you might get out a 6 cap first. And then you still might not
> draw an Obf master, and you might keep Mesu-ing out 6 caps for the
> first 2 or 3 tries.
So what? The chance of this is very low, and I will get Clotho's Gift,
which isn't that bad. Besides, after that, my 6-caps will have a very
good chance to get a younger vamp with the next Mesu.
> Once and a while, Mesu will be gold, sure. But most of the time, it
> isn't going to be any better than Clotho's Gift, on average.
In this deck, on the contrary, "once and a while, Mesu will be just
Clotho's Gift, but most of the time it will be pure gold" :)
> > The plan is simple: summon a LOT of Waters of Duat and bleed your
> > prey, using Night Moves or just traditional stealth.
>
> If you are using a LOT of Waters, how many Mesus are you going to have
> in the deck?
>From 8 to 10, I think. Why not? They can be cycled relatively easily,
even a Waters can play it as Clotho's Gift.
> > Hope this clearly demonstrates why Mesu Bedshet is broken.
> It does not.
Then you should analyze the chances better. I may provide a sample
deck, if you don't believe my words.
> > Hosing defense to empower aggression is just stupid. Spying Mission is
> > a good card since it lets you avoid damaging wrong target and provides
> > +2 bleed in the future. Inferior Revelations is decent: you have to
> > spend an action and 1 blood to discard bounce (or be sure that there
> > are no bounce). But False Resonance is awful, because it really allows
> > bleeder to pass a heavy bleed. Narrow Minds belongs to the same
> > category.
>
> Not if you wanted to make Bleed Bounce cost an extra blood. Which
> apparently the designers wanted to do.
So it was a stupid wish of them. Bleed bounce is a single thing that
prevents us from the reign of power-bleed.
> > Narrow Minds forces you to spend 5-8 more blood in the whole game,
> > which is A LOT. And each time your vampire is forced to hunt instead
> > of doing something useful to oust your prey, S&B can celebrate - it
> > will have more time to oust you.
>
> Yup. It is a card that makes Bleed Bounce less attractive. Yes. Which
> helps S+B some (but hinders it some too, as S+B often uses its own
> bounce--if you are an S+B deck, and you are using Narrow Minds, are
> you using your own Deflections, too? If not, how are you not getting
> bled to death yourself?). But also makes every strategy in the game
> that *doesn't* use bounce a little more attractive.
Narrow Minds helps S+B, because these decks are very aggressive, and
they happily prefer greater chances of ousting to some extra blood or
even pool.
Narrow Minds doesn nothing to the decks that doesn't use bounce.
And Narrow Minds *hurts* all "peaceful" decks with bounce. Hurts a
lot.
How can you fail to see that it's very bad for the game? Will you
advocate that killing the slow peaceful decks is good, and only the
turbo-ousting decks should prevail?
> > No, !Malks will manage to pay 1 more blood for their Telepathic
> > Misdirections, as well as most other aggressive decks. After all, they
> > spend their blood quite rarely. compare this to some combat deck that
> > really needs every drop of blood.
>
> The combat decks aren't using Bounce. They are using Combat.
There are many combat decks with bounce. My Create Gargoyle deck, for
instance, has 5 Deflections, and the Deflections are going to become
unplayable with Narrow Minds, since my !Tremeres are small. Let's help
S&B and kill the rest?
> The !Malks will pay the extra 1 for the bounce, but then so will their
> prey. And the Bounce will still be good.
!Malks have some "unneeded" blood, their prey might not. And if not,
the bounce becomes just dead cards, which helps to oust the prey.
> > Bleed reduction will NEVER replace bounce. Bounce works better in the
> > aggressive decks, while bleed reduction - in the defensive decks like
> > Auspex weenies.
>
> Well, if people get sick of paying the 1 extra blood for the bounce...
Never. Until we get some cards that reduce bleed to 0, regardless of
the amount :)
> > It's much better to have 8 PretStrength in your deck than having 8 TS,
> > since you will have much more than 8 combats :)
>
> Not so much. You play 2 or 3 of them, and then have 5 dead cards.
Why only 2 or 3? Effective combat decks usually have more minions.
> > Yes, they are harder to cycle, but not for a typical Potence weenie
> > that usually fields at least 4-5 vampires.
>
> I assure you that I am playing more Potence Weenie decks that you are,
> in a historical sense. And I'm not incredibly impressed by
> Preturnatural Strength. It is not bad. And will certainly see use in
> some Super Star decks ('cause, ya know, Enkidu can become
> Preturnaturally strong and then Freak and then go kill everyone). But
> isn't really gonna replace TS as a card of choice in combat decks, no.
Why no?
> > Oh, come on. "You cannot use it in the endgame" is just a wonderful
> > reason to make 3-2 deals with your predator :)
>
> Good luck with that.
Oh, it's obvious.
> > Besides, we are talking about Setites voting decks, and they are quite
> > able to add some bleed. After you oust 2-3 players, your position will
> > be much better than the last player's position...
>
> Maybe. Or maybe you have been voted down a lot, as you don't have any
> significant titles. Or ran out of blood 'cause you didn't draw into
> your Voter Caps.
Seems that you think that I cannot build a deck with a lot of votes
and a lot of Independent vampires :) But I can.
How about Synesios, Kephamos, Amisa and Nehsi? Each has 2 votes and
the first three are 8-caps. Not much worse than most Princes. And all
have at least inferior Obfuscate and Presence :) Add Ferraile and
voila! If you think about all the acceleration from The Eternals of
Sirius and, probably, Mesu Bedshet/Grooming the Protege etc. etc., you
will have to agree that this deck isn't going to be much slower than
the classic Arika builds...
Yours,
Ector
P.S. I didn't answer to Blooded Sand, since all answers are in this
post.
Peter D Bakija
> Even if you were right, so how many Ambulances would you like to put
> in your deck? One? It may appear too late. Two? Six?
1 or 2 seems reasonable. 3 or 4 if you have stealth already.
> Yes, I've read the card and I know what it does. Still, it isn't going
> to be played.
If you say so.
> I've never seen such thing as "Animalism combat deck".
Then you are living in such a vastly different world than me that this
discussion is pointless. Animalism combat (Carrion Crows/Bats) shows
up with incredible regularity.
> You mean
> Carrion Crows + presses? Soak will prevent the damage from Crows, and
> it's much more versatile.
Soak only stops 2 damage at inferior. And doesn't stop aggrivated
damage. Soak is good. This card is not horrible.
> It's worse than Pentex Subversion, since you can ask other players to
> burn Pentex. It's worse than Misdirection, and, really, it's worse
> than all previously existing cards.
Unconvinced.
> Free +1 bleed retainers are unique. And they are quite popular, so
> they may get contested.
Sure. But Cell Phone is hardly going to shake the foundations of the
earth.
> Not that much. Every horde deck needs a lot of small vampires. You'd
> end up with roughly the same crypt without Mesu.
Sure. But the end result is that Mesu is a gamble. Sometimes it gains
you 2 pool. Sometimes it loses you 1 blood. And it constrains your
deck building choices considerably. It is not even close to as
effective as, say, Govern the Unaligned. Yeah, it gets you a vampire
too. But it is inconsistient in its effect.
> Peter, do you belive in the theory of probability? :) A chance of
> getting one of my five 6-caps is 93%. If I won't get them, I will just
> influence one vampire and then draw another vampire. Shit happens, but
> it doesn't mean that the idea is bad.
I'm not saying it is a bad idea. I'm saying the Mesu Bedshet is in no
way over the top of the pre-existing powercurve. Not even close.
> In this deck, on the contrary, "once and a while, Mesu will be just
> Clotho's Gift, but most of the time it will be pure gold" :)
When you regularly win tournaments with this deck, come back to me.
> Then you should analyze the chances better. I may provide a sample
> deck, if you don't believe my words.
Go ahead.
> So it was a stupid wish of them. Bleed bounce is a single thing that
> prevents us from the reign of power-bleed.
Yeah, not really.
> Narrow Minds helps S+B, because these decks are very aggressive, and
> they happily prefer greater chances of ousting to some extra blood or
> even pool.
Narrow Minds also helps all decks that don't use bleed bounce, is it
brings the abilities of bleed bounce down to realistic levels.
> How can you fail to see that it's very bad for the game? Will you
> advocate that killing the slow peaceful decks is good, and only the
> turbo-ousting decks should prevail?
'Casue I don't actually think this is the effect this card is going to
have. And as history indicates that you tend to overreact to things on
first look, I suspect that is what is going on here.
> Why no?
'Casue Preturnatural Strength isn't that good. It costs a blood. It
costs an action. It replaces the good transient Potence combat card.
There are situations where it will be viable and even good. But it is
hardly replacing Torn Signpost in the grand scheme. 'Cause transient
combat is often better than permanent combat.
-Peter
Shade
> I've never seen such thing as "Animalism combat deck". You mean
> Carrion Crows + presses? Soak will prevent the damage from Crows, and
> it's much more versatile.
Really? I played on a table at the Australian Championships with
three animalism based combat decks, two blocking decks and one rush
combat all playing Carrion Crows, Aid from Bats, etc... with a mixture
of Gangrel, Ahrimanes, and random ANI guys. They're strong decks, you
should try one sometime.
Simon
J
> in your deck? One? It may appear too late. Two? Six?
> Do you realize that if you're playing a combat-heavy deck, you
> generally don't have much stealth, and the Imbued can simply block
> equipping your Ambulance? Or even double-block your burning action at
> +1 stealth?
> Yes, I've read the card and I know what it does. Still, it isn't going
> to be played.
Lets assume, just for the sake of argument that VTES players are
clever, cunning and crafty (a stretch I know). I'm playing combat. I
bleed, I get blocked, I bash the hell out of the opposing minion and
then tap the Ambulance to continue my bleed. If I get blocked again,
I bash that blocker. Sure the ambulance burns, but pffft, 2 of my
prey's minions are now dead or sleeping. Maybe after the first
bashing, they decide not to block the continuation.
Alternatively, I'm playing stealth. I bleed/vote/whatever. My prey
blocks, (taps a minion to do it). I choose NOT to play stealth. Yup
- caught. We have a nice little combat, and then I tap the ambulance,
continue the action. Now - they've got a choice. Do they wake a
minion and attempt to block or let the action go? If they try to wake
and block, I now play my stealth and get past their defence. The
action is successful, and my prey has tapped 1 minion and wasted 1
wake.
And then you can burn Imbued.
--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
Blooded Sand
Nooooo, stop. You are engagin Ector in logic.
PS Promise not to post a lot when drunk though ;)
Ector
> On Oct 4, 9:29 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > Even if you were right, so how many Ambulances would you like to put
> > in your deck? One? It may appear too late. Two? Six?
>
> 1 or 2 seems reasonable. 3 or 4 if you have stealth already.
for 1 pool, but Learjet constantly improves your hand, which is
greatly appreciated by all decks - with stealth or without it. And
even Learjet isn't used in every deck, because it costs 1 pool, and it
requires an action that can be blocked, etc. etc. One must really
*hate* Imbued to play 3-4 copies of Ambulance :)
> > Yes, I've read the card and I know what it does. Still, it isn't going
> > to be played.
>
> If you say so.
I say what I see. There are no reasons to devote the precious deck
space to such cards, when you can play much more useful cards like
Learjet instead.
> > I've never seen such thing as "Animalism combat deck".
>
> Then you are living in such a vastly different world than me that this
> discussion is pointless. Animalism combat (Carrion Crows/Bats) shows
> up with incredible regularity.
Looks like a metagame thing. Here the Animalism combat decks would
fail to stop bleeders and voters and wouldn't be strong enough to
combat with other combat decks.
> > You mean
> > Carrion Crows + presses? Soak will prevent the damage from Crows, and
> > it's much more versatile.
>
> Soak only stops 2 damage at inferior. And doesn't stop aggrivated
> damage. Soak is good. This card is not horrible.
OK, let's consider different types of damage that your vampire can
suffer in combat:
1). The most basic hand strike for 1. Armor is worse than Soak,
Rolling or Unflinching, 'cause it costs 1 blood. It's worse than
Superior Mettle (at superior) if somebody presses. It's worse than
Skin of Steel if your opponent has additionals.
2). Huge damage in one packet (Potence combat). Armor is worse than
Skin of Steel and Superior Mettle. At inferior, it's better than
Rolling, and only slightly better than Soak (in case of Disarm), but
it's better than Rolling or Unflinching.
3). Aggropoke. Almost the same as case 1, but Soak wouldn't help you
here.
4). Crows. Armor is better than all other cards (only slightly better
than Soak, though). But you won't get a huge advantage: preventing 3
damage for 1 blood isn't that much better than preventing 1 damage for
free.
5). Guns/Celerity. Inferior Armor is almost the same as inferior
Rolling/Unflinching (preventing 2 damage from Magnum for 1 blood isn't
much better than preventing 1 for free). It's worse than Soak, worse
than Superior Mettle and much worse than Unflinching/Skin of Steel.
So, the only reason to play Armor of Vitality is Carrion Crows and
other environmental damage? If all your players use Crows, go ahead.
But even in that sutiation, Armor is worse in preventing the most
basic hand strikes. In all other cases, this card is inferior to the
existing Fortitude cards.
>
> > It's worse than Pentex Subversion, since you can ask other players to
> > burn Pentex. It's worse than Misdirection, and, really, it's worse
> > than all previously existing cards.
>
> Unconvinced.
Just think, and you'll get convinced. If you get Pentexed, all you
need is crying "Please help me to defend against this weenie", and
somebody will find an action to burn Pentex. It's your prey's best
interest, after all. If you get Misdirected, you will lose just one
possibility to block, which isn't that much against that horde. But if
you get Burdened, nobody will help you. If you will play Wakes, you
will burn a pool for each Wake as if you'd pass that bleed unblocked.
And this will last until you burn this card, which is a (D) action
without stealth and can be blocked!
It's absolutely clear that if you're playing large vampires without
stealth (for instance, a Wall deck), you have absolutely no chances
against Burdens. Melidiadus was playing a very interesting Helena deck
- and just ONE Burden is enough to completely shut it down. And don't
tell me that this is good.
>
> > Free +1 bleed retainers are unique. And they are quite popular, so
> > they may get contested.
>
> Sure. But Cell Phone is hardly going to shake the foundations of the
> earth.
It really isn't. But it still can make that horrible weenie even more
effective. As if it wasn't too effective before...
> > Not that much. Every horde deck needs a lot of small vampires. You'd
> > end up with roughly the same crypt without Mesu.
>
> Sure. But the end result is that Mesu is a gamble. Sometimes it gains
> you 2 pool. Sometimes it loses you 1 blood. And it constrains your
> deck building choices considerably. It is not even close to as
> effective as, say, Govern the Unaligned. Yeah, it gets you a vampire
> too. But it is inconsistient in its effect.
I've demonstrated you a crypt sample where it's going to be very
consistent. You have 93% chance of getting a 6-cap in the initial
opening, and you have roughly the same chance of getting Obfuscate
skill card. How can you call this a "gamble"? Show me a game where I
have 90% chance of winning, and I will make a fortune :)
Also, how can you say that Govern is better than Mesu? It's better
only if you need pool or +bleed, not vampires, but if you need new
vampires, Mesu is much better. +6 transfers and +3 pool is strictly
better than +3 transfers and +3 pool.
>
> > In this deck, on the contrary, "once and a while, Mesu will be just
> > Clotho's Gift, but most of the time it will be pure gold" :)
>
> When you regularly win tournaments with this deck, come back to me.
Good argument. Can you tell me why shouldn't I regularly win
tournaments with such a great advantage?
> > Then you should analyze the chances better. I may provide a sample
> > deck, if you don't believe my words.
>
> Go ahead.
Here you are:
Deck Name: Mesu Bedshet 3-4
Created By: Ilya Ginsburg (Ector)
Description: Deck to demonstrate brokenness of Mesu Bedshet (modify
at will)
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 13, Max: 24, Avg: 4.83)
----------------------------------------------
1 Belle Equitone ser 2 Followers of
Set
1 Reverend Djoser Jones pre ser 3 Followers of
Set
1 Marla Kenyon ser PRE 4 Followers of
Set
1 Sahira Siraj obf ser tha 4 Followers of
Set
1 Renenet ser OBF PRE 5 Followers of
Set
1 Zhenga obf pre SER 5 Followers of
Set
1 Black Lotus aus obf ser DOM 5 Followers of
Set
2 Ezekiel obf pot PRE SER 6 Followers of
Set
1 Halim Bey obf tha DOM SER 6 Followers of
Set
2 Ankh-sen-Sutekh obf PRE SER 6 Followers of
Set
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (28 cards)
11 Obfuscate
1 Powerbase: Zurich
2 Information Highway
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Opium Den
2 Parthenon, The
1 Secure Haven
1 Temple Hunting Ground
2 Direct Intervention
2 Wash
1 Barrens, The
2 Visit from the Capuchin
Action (33 cards)
8 Mesu Bedshet
10 Waters of Duat
6 Public Trust
5 Enticement
3 Psychic Veil
1 Dream World
Action Modifier (18 cards)
6 Veil the Legions
6 Cloak the Gathering
3 Spying Mission
3 Lost in Crowds
Reaction (2 cards)
2 On the Qui Vive
Combat (3 cards)
3 Majesty
Ally (2 cards)
1 Nephren-Ka
1 Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
Combo (4 cards)
4 Swallowed by the Night
I've changed crypt a bit (replaced second copy of Black Lotus with
Belle Equitone) to make the idea more clear. This deck is not tested
or tuned, it's just a sketch. But I've made several draws in FELDB
(great thanks to Bala for this wonderful program!) to ensure that my
chances of getting Obfuscate early are high enough.
This deck emphasizes the additional transfers. You get +2 transfers
per turn from Info Highway, +1 from Dreams, +2 from Powerbase: Zurich,
+1 from each Public Trust and, yes, +6 from almost every Mesu Bedshet.
With a decent draw, you should explode like a bomb.
> > So it was a stupid wish of them. Bleed bounce is a single thing that
> > prevents us from the reign of power-bleed.
>
> Yeah, not really.
What else? Rush? Intercept? I'm sure that without bounce S&B decks
would prevail everywhere. Rush isn't competitive enough, and it
generally cannot stop a S&B predator. Intercept can block it, right,
but each time it fails it's going closer to a loss.
> > Narrow Minds helps S+B, because these decks are very aggressive, and
> > they happily prefer greater chances of ousting to some extra blood or
> > even pool.
>
> Narrow Minds also helps all decks that don't use bleed bounce, is it
> brings the abilities of bleed bounce down to realistic levels.
This is a help to just aggressive decks, not to ALL decks. Yes, you
may pretend that a Tremere blocking deck with 6 Conditionings isn't
much aggressive, but nevertheless, the more often your deck launches
heavy bleeds, the better will Narrow Minds help you. And empowering
power-bleed is bad in my book.
> > How can you fail to see that it's very bad for the game? Will you
> > advocate that killing the slow peaceful decks is good, and only the
> > turbo-ousting decks should prevail?
>
> 'Casue I don't actually think this is the effect this card is going to
> have. And as history indicates that you tend to overreact to things on
> first look, I suspect that is what is going on here.
Oh am I overreacting here? :) Look, Narrow Minds is one of the few
cards that already cost $5 at TheLasombra's store, and people are
still buying it. They don't seem to believe that 1 blood is nothing.
And as I've told you, each S&B deck will have at least one copy. Why
not? It's even safer than The Bowl in a blocking deck: it cannot be
blocked.
> > Why no?
>
> 'Casue Preturnatural Strength isn't that good. It costs a blood. It
> costs an action. It replaces the good transient Potence combat card.
> There are situations where it will be viable and even good. But it is
> hardly replacing Torn Signpost in the grand scheme. 'Cause transient
> combat is often better than permanent combat.
>
I didn't write that Preternatural Strength is broken, right? I just
feel uneasy because of "wallpaperizing" good vampires with additional
Strength. Yes, Torn Signpost is good, but Lazverinus was valued so
high because he didn't need Signposts. And now you can just fetch
PretStrength with Sibyl's Tongue or Drop Point Network - and voila! -
Alicia Barrows or Marge Khan is almost a Laz!
Should I remind you that "+2 strength" costs 3 "vampire points" in CAC
tournaments and requires a vampire of at least 10 capacity? IMHO, such
bonus should not be granted to 4-cap Hugo just for an action and 1
blood.
What would you say if they printed a card providing permanent +2
stealth at superior Obfuscate? Yes, you can get +2 stealth from Lost
in Crowds, but *permanent* +2 stealth for an action is too good. As
well as permanent +2 strength.
Ector
> > Even if you were right, so how many Ambulances would you like to put
> > in your deck? One? It may appear too late. Two? Six?
> > Do you realize that if you're playing a combat-heavy deck, you
> > generally don't have much stealth, and the Imbued can simply block
> > equipping your Ambulance? Or even double-block your burning action at
> > +1 stealth?
> > Yes, I've read the card and I know what it does. Still, it isn't going
> > to be played.
>
> Lets assume, just for the sake of argument that VTES players are
> clever, cunning and crafty (a stretch I know). I'm playing combat. I
> bleed, I get blocked, I bash the hell out of the opposing minion and
> then tap the Ambulance to continue my bleed. If I get blocked again,
> I bash that blocker. Sure the ambulance burns, but pffft, 2 of my
> prey's minions are now dead or sleeping. Maybe after the first
> bashing, they decide not to block the continuation.
minion instead of bleeding. Combat-heavy decks rarely have high bleed,
so your prey can just avoid blocking a vampire with Ambulance. And if
you increase bleed, they can bounce.
So you rush, they chump-block, you kill the blocker, tap the Ambulance
and continue your rush. At this point, what prevents them from
blocking you again? You will kill their vampire anyway, but they will
at least burn your Ambulance. And don't forget that you need to equip
Ambulance first.
> Alternatively, I'm playing stealth. I bleed/vote/whatever. My prey
> blocks, (taps a minion to do it). I choose NOT to play stealth. Yup
> - caught. We have a nice little combat, and then I tap the ambulance,
> continue the action. Now - they've got a choice. Do they wake a
> minion and attempt to block or let the action go? If they try to wake
> and block, I now play my stealth and get past their defence. The
> action is successful, and my prey has tapped 1 minion and wasted 1
> wake.
If you're playing stealth, you're trying to AVOID combat. And if you
let them catch you, your vampire isn't likely to survive that combat.
If you feel yourself well-protected, you may still catch something
like Obedience (there are many of them now, for different disciplines)
which will end your action without any chances of using Ambulance.
Anyway, if you're playing stealth, you should think about Learjet, not
about Ambulance. Got extra stealth? Dump it with Learjet. Not enough
stealth? Play a bleed modifier and hope to draw stealth in the next
two cards. Ambulance is nothing compared to Learjet, and look - even
Learjet isn't that popular, since 1 pool and an action is a large
price...
> And then you can burn Imbued.
Oh really you can, if somebody Incapacitated them. You can burn them
even without the Ambulance, but you will get some damage for their
Convictions. As long as the Convictions are their primary resource,
the Imbued aren't going to be very happy throwing them at you. And if
you need a weapon against Imbued, you'd better look for a card with
the words "Burn an ally" :)
Imbued CAN block a +1 stealth action. Even twice. They have a lot of
Second Sights. So, Ambulance isn't going to be worth its price even
against them.
Yours,
Ector
Peter D Bakija
No, no. Notice how I said "3-4 if you have stealth already", i.e. if you
are stealthy, Ambulance is probably pretty good for the "keep going if
you are blocked" part of the card--go bleed your prey, get blocked, tap
the blocker, continue with Ambulance (due to somehow not being killed),
play stealth on the second part of the action if necessary--your action
succeeds, you don't lose the Ambulance, you have tapped someone, making
a hole for other minions. Seems reasonable.
> Looks like a metagame thing. Here the Animalism combat decks would
> fail to stop bleeders and voters and wouldn't be strong enough to
> combat with other combat decks.
Wha? Weenie ANI is an incredibly strong archetype--lost of cheap
minions, lots of permacept, good combat. Can trump other combat with
DotB or Terror Frenzy. Bats/Crows/Press kills a lot of stuff. See:
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k5originsfri
> Good argument. Can you tell me why shouldn't I regularly win
> tournaments with such a great advantage?
'Cause I think it is much less of a "great advantage" than you seem to
think it is. Really. Build the deck. Play the deck. See how it goes.
> Here you are:
>
> Deck Name: Mesu Bedshet 3-4
> Created By: Ilya Ginsburg (Ector)
> Description: Deck to demonstrate brokenness of Mesu Bedshet (modify
> at will)
>
> Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 13, Max: 24, Avg: 4.83)
> ----------------------------------------------
> 1 Belle Equitone ser
> 1 Reverend Djoser Jones pre ser 3 Followers of
> 1 Marla Kenyon ser PRE 4 Followers of
> 1 Sahira Siraj obf ser tha 4 Followers of
> 1 Renenet ser OBF PRE 5 Followers of
> 1 Zhenga obf pre SER 5 Followers o
> 1 Black Lotus aus obf ser DOM 5 Followers of
> 2 Ezekiel obf pot PRE SER 6 Followers of
> 1 Halim Bey obf tha DOM SER 6 Followers of
> 2 Ankh-sen-Sutekh obf PRE SER 6 Followers of
>
Seems ok. Might do well. Might get wiped out by stealth bleed or rush
combat before it starts moving--it has virtually no bleed, vote, or
combat defense. Not to say that this is the auto death of a deck like
this, but it has holes. The Mesu might be good. Might not. If you start
ruling the world with this deck? Let me know.
> What else? Rush? Intercept? I'm sure that without bounce S&B decks
> would prevail everywhere. Rush isn't competitive enough, and it
> generally cannot stop a S&B predator. Intercept can block it, right,
> but each time it fails it's going closer to a loss.
Not everyone uses bounce. Bounce is not the only thing that beats S+B.
> This is a help to just aggressive decks, not to ALL decks. Yes, you
> may pretend that a Tremere blocking deck with 6 Conditionings isn't
> much aggressive, but nevertheless, the more often your deck launches
> heavy bleeds, the better will Narrow Minds help you. And empowering
> power-bleed is bad in my book.
I'm putting Narrow Minds in every deck I own that doesn't use bounce.
'Cause it helps every deck in the game that doesn't have bounce.
> Oh am I overreacting here? :)
I think so, yes.
> Look, Narrow Minds is one of the few
> cards that already cost $5 at TheLasombra's store, and people are
> still buying it. They don't seem to believe that 1 blood is nothing.
That is 'cause, as I mentioned, Narrow Minds is going to likely go in
every deck ever constructed from here till the end of eternity, that
doesn't have bounce.
> And as I've told you, each S&B deck will have at least one copy.
Sure. As will every other deck that doesn't have Bounce. But if the S+B
is using it, they are gonna lose their bounce ability too, which is
problematic.
> I didn't write that Preternatural Strength is broken, right? I just
> feel uneasy because of "wallpaperizing" good vampires with additional
> Strength.
Uhh, how is it doing that? Vampires with additional strength still start
with additional strength. If they have Potence, they can use
Preternatural Strength too. If they don't have Potence, it isn't an
issue.
> Yes, Torn Signpost is good, but Lazverinus was valued so
> high because he didn't need Signposts.
And he still will be, as you don't need to fill your deck with
Preternatural Strengths to get the +2 strength.
> And now you can just fetch
> PretStrength with Sibyl's Tongue or Drop Point Network - and voila! -
> Alicia Barrows or Marge Khan is almost a Laz!
Ya huh. You go do that.
> Should I remind you that "+2 strength" costs 3 "vampire points" in CAC
> tournaments and requires a vampire of at least 10 capacity?
How is that remotely relevant to anything?
> IMHO, such
> bonus should not be granted to 4-cap Hugo just for an action and 1
> blood.
If you say so.
> What would you say if they printed a card providing permanent +2
> stealth at superior Obfuscate? Yes, you can get +2 stealth from Lost
> in Crowds, but *permanent* +2 stealth for an action is too good. As
> well as permanent +2 strength.
Stealth and Strength are very different things that have very different
effects on the game. Comparing them is rediculous.
J
> even without the Ambulance, but you will get some damage for their
> Convictions. As long as the Convictions are their primary resource,
> the Imbued aren't going to be very happy throwing them at you. And if
> you need a weapon against Imbued, you'd better look for a card with
> the words "Burn an ally" :)
> Imbued CAN block a +1 stealth action. Even twice. They have a lot of
> Second Sights. So, Ambulance isn't going to be worth its price even
> against them.
If you can't see how good Ambulance is dude, then there really isn't
much hope for you. I suggest you pack up all the "crap" rare cards
that exist in the game and mail them to me.
Ector
> In article <1191784851.793976.305...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > One must really
> > *hate* Imbued to play 3-4 copies of Ambulance :)
>
> No, no. Notice how I said "3-4 if you have stealth already", i.e. if you
> are stealthy, Ambulance is probably pretty good for the "keep going if
> you are blocked" part of the card--go bleed your prey, get blocked, tap
> the blocker, continue with Ambulance (due to somehow not being killed),
> play stealth on the second part of the action if necessary--your action
> succeeds, you don't lose the Ambulance, you have tapped someone, making
> a hole for other minions. Seems reasonable.
should not take - stealth decks rarely have good combat defense,
especially for such benefit. At maximum, you will tap one minion (or
force them to lose a Wake), and you generally don't need it if you
really have stealth.
> > Looks like a metagame thing. Here the Animalism combat decks would
> > fail to stop bleeders and voters and wouldn't be strong enough to
> > combat with other combat decks.
>
> Wha? Weenie ANI is an incredibly strong archetype--lost of cheap
> minions, lots of permacept, good combat. Can trump other combat with
> DotB or Terror Frenzy. Bats/Crows/Press kills a lot of stuff. See:
Weenie ANI intercept might be a good thing, but Animalism combat
cannot beat Combat Ends.
Decks that are trying to avoid combat aren't going to use cards like
Armor of Vitality anyway, since they don't have a lot of space for
combat. Thus, they will prefer Combat Ends or universal cards like
Superior Mettle/Skin of Steel/Rolling.
Combat-heavy decks can use Armor of Vitality if everyone around is
playing Crows, but that's very unlikely...
Every deck has holes, but this one is defended against rush pretty
well (thanks to the large quantity of its minions) and can be easily
defended against bleed (just return the second copy of Black Lotus
that I've removed to make the idea more clear and add some
Deflections).
> The Mesu might be good. Might not. If you start
> ruling the world with this deck? Let me know.
In this deck, the Mesu is good at least 90% of the time, as it's the
special deck to demonstrate this.
> > What else? Rush? Intercept? I'm sure that without bounce S&B decks
> > would prevail everywhere. Rush isn't competitive enough, and it
> > generally cannot stop a S&B predator. Intercept can block it, right,
> > but each time it fails it's going closer to a loss.
>
> Not everyone uses bounce. Bounce is not the only thing that beats S+B.
At least it's the most effective thing. You not only prevent dying
yourself, but use your predator's force to oust your prey.
> > This is a help to just aggressive decks, not to ALL decks. Yes, you
> > may pretend that a Tremere blocking deck with 6 Conditionings isn't
> > much aggressive, but nevertheless, the more often your deck launches
> > heavy bleeds, the better will Narrow Minds help you. And empowering
> > power-bleed is bad in my book.
>
> I'm putting Narrow Minds in every deck I own that doesn't use bounce.
> 'Cause it helps every deck in the game that doesn't have bounce.
How it helps a deck that doesn't have heavy bleeds? You want to
prohibit your predator from bouncing to you? I don't think that it
worth including Narrow Minds.
> > Look, Narrow Minds is one of the few
> > cards that already cost $5 at TheLasombra's store, and people are
> > still buying it. They don't seem to believe that 1 blood is nothing.
>
> That is 'cause, as I mentioned, Narrow Minds is going to likely go in
> every deck ever constructed from here till the end of eternity, that
> doesn't have bounce.
I don't think so. Every deck with heavy bleeds, maybe.
>
> > I didn't write that Preternatural Strength is broken, right? I just
> > feel uneasy because of "wallpaperizing" good vampires with additional
> > Strength.
>
> Uhh, how is it doing that? Vampires with additional strength still start
> with additional strength. If they have Potence, they can use
> Preternatural Strength too. If they don't have Potence, it isn't an
> issue.
The difference between Strength 1 and Strength 3 is much higher than
the difference between Strength 3 and Strength 5 - you can Disarm
without any cards, and you generally can torporize with just one
Undead Strength. Previously, +2 strength of Lazverinus was a huge
issue, now you can build Osebo blocking deck with +2 strength for
everybody, or Sheldon/Selma/Nicolaus deck with permanent +2 strength,
etc. etc. Yes, Lazverinus is still good, but not that good as it was
before, compared to other alternatives.
> > Yes, Torn Signpost is good, but Lazverinus was valued so
> > high because he didn't need Signposts.
>
> And he still will be, as you don't need to fill your deck with
> Preternatural Strengths to get the +2 strength.
That's the thing. You were paying 10 pool (and 10 transfers) for Laz
since you wanted his title, his AUS/POT/FOR/DOM and, especially, his
+2 strength. Now you can take other good vamps (that have no +2
strength but have some other cool abilities) and "upgrade" them.
Sheldon/Selma/Nicolaus are younger than Laz, they cannot be PTOed, and
they have access to the great Camarilla cards like 2nd Tradition and
Parity Shift. You are taking much less risk with them: if you lose
your Sheldon, you aren't dead yet, but if you lose Laz, you are. And
now they can all have +2 strength just for an action that costs 1
blood!
> > And now you can just fetch
> > PretStrength with Sibyl's Tongue or Drop Point Network - and voila! -
> > Alicia Barrows or Marge Khan is almost a Laz!
>
> Ya huh. You go do that.
As you wish. I will try; probably, with the other vamps.
> > Should I remind you that "+2 strength" costs 3 "vampire points" in CAC
> > tournaments and requires a vampire of at least 10 capacity?
>
> How is that remotely relevant to anything?
I wanted to note that permanent +2 strength is a huge bonus that was
never granted so easily as with Preternatural Strength.
>
> > What would you say if they printed a card providing permanent +2
> > stealth at superior Obfuscate? Yes, you can get +2 stealth from Lost
> > in Crowds, but *permanent* +2 stealth for an action is too good. As
> > well as permanent +2 strength.
>
> Stealth and Strength are very different things that have very different
> effects on the game. Comparing them is rediculous.
I wasn't trying to compare them. But they are similar in this:
permanent +2 strength, as well as permanent +2 stealth should NOT be
granted so easily (just for an action that costs 1 blood and performed
at +2 stealth).
Yours,
Ector
J
> cannot beat Combat Ends.
Sure it can.
Pack Alpha, Dog Pack. Expensive, but oh, so effective. And then you
Heidleberg it around.
Also, Owl Companion, so you can see when they've got a S:CE in hand
and when they don't, so you don't have to waste plenty of combat cards
before strike resolution.
Or you can just iterate them out of their hand because you rush with
so many guys from Haven or Frontal Assault.
witness1
> On Oct 8, 12:14 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:> In article <1191784851.793976.305...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > may pretend that a Tremere blocking deck with 6 Conditionings isn't
> > > much aggressive, but nevertheless, the more often your deck launches
> > > heavy bleeds, the better will Narrow Minds help you. And empowering
> > > power-bleed is bad in my book.
>
> > I'm putting Narrow Minds in every deck I own that doesn't use bounce.
> > 'Cause it helps every deck in the game that doesn't have bounce.
>
> How it helps a deck that doesn't have heavy bleeds? You want to
> prohibit your predator from bouncing to you? I don't think that it
> worth including Narrow Minds.
It prevents your predator from bouncing heavy bleeds to you. It
prevents your prey from bouncing your bleeds to his prey. It prevents
your grandpredator from bouncing to your predator who bounces it to
you. It prevents your grandprey from bouncing to your grandpredator
who bounces to your predator who bounces to you.
If you've experienced being at the end of a long bounce chain, you
will want this card in your deck, even if it doesn't help you go
forward at all.
witness1
Peter D Bakija
> force them to lose a Wake), and you generally don't need it if you
> really have stealth.
Which is often all you need--if your prey has a single minion untapped
and you don't want, like, you weenies blocked, someone needs to take
the hit anyway. You might as well take the hit and then continue in
the action.
> Weenie ANI intercept might be a good thing, but Animalism combat
> cannot beat Combat Ends.
Doesn't need to. It needs to block you and use a coupel cards to wear
you down. Weenie ANI decks are very effective.
> In this deck, the Mesu is good at least 90% of the time, as it's the
> special deck to demonstrate this.
Build the deck. Play the deck. Come back and let us know how it goes.
> At least it's the most effective thing. You not only prevent dying
> yourself, but use your predator's force to oust your prey.
Which is why it is reasonable to create a generally useful hoser to
downpower bleed bounce--it is probably too powerful in the first
place.
> How it helps a deck that doesn't have heavy bleeds? You want to
> prohibit your predator from bouncing to you? I don't think that it
> worth including Narrow Minds.
Then clearly, your mind is narrow. Narrow Minds is a card that
benefits every deck that does not include bounce. Because it punishes
everyone who isn't you. Even if you only use 1 point bleeds ever, your
prey benefits from playing a bleed bounce card (as instead of taking a
1 point bleed, their prey is taking a 1 point bleed). Making them pay
2 for that makes the exchange work to your benefit. Even if your
predator is only bouncing 1 point bleeds to you, making them pay 2
blood to do so makes it less likely they will bother. People who are
using bounce are relying on it to make their deck work. If you, even
if you have no heavy bleeds to speak of, make their bounce less
effective? You make their decks less effective. While not making your
own deck less effective. It is a win/win for you.
> I don't think so. Every deck with heavy bleeds, maybe.
You are clearly missing out on the large picture this card paints.
> That's the thing. You were paying 10 pool (and 10 transfers) for Laz
> since you wanted his title, his AUS/POT/FOR/DOM and, especially, his
> +2 strength. Now you can take other good vamps (that have no +2
> strength but have some other cool abilities) and "upgrade" them.
Only by including cards in your deck that you need to draw to make
your deck go.
In this deck you are envisioning, how many Preternatural Strengths are
you including? As opposed to how many you are actually going to need
to get into play? If you include 4, you likely don't draw them early.
If you include 6-8, you end up with a lot of dead cards. I don't know
about you, but I generally find that if I don't have 10+ of a given
card that I *need* to make the deck go? I don't draw them early
enough.
Yeah, you could tweak it out with weird card fetching tech, but then
you are building an elaborate infrastructure just to avoid including
10 Preternatural Strength when you really only need 1 of them in play
ever.
> Sheldon/Selma/Nicolaus are younger than Laz, they cannot be PTOed, and
> they have access to the great Camarilla cards like 2nd Tradition and
> Parity Shift. You are taking much less risk with them: if you lose
> your Sheldon, you aren't dead yet, but if you lose Laz, you are. And
> now they can all have +2 strength just for an action that costs 1
> blood!
If they draw the card early enough. And if you are including 10
Preternatural Strengths, how is that really any better than using 10
Torn Signposts?
> As you wish. I will try; probably, with the other vamps.
Go ahead. Build the deck. Play the deck. Let us know how it goes.
> I wanted to note that permanent +2 strength is a huge bonus that was
> never granted so easily as with Preternatural Strength.
A) The Create A Clan rules are not connected to the actualy rules.
B) If it takes 10 cards to reliably grant +2 strength permanently, you
could get the same effect with 10 Torn Signposts without paying blood
or taking actions and having dead cards in your deck.
> I wasn't trying to compare them. But they are similar in this:
> permanent +2 strength, as well as permanent +2 stealth should NOT be
> granted so easily (just for an action that costs 1 blood and performed
> at +2 stealth).
You are *sooooo* ignoring the opportunity cost of Preturnatural
Strength. In an abolute vaccum, it looks awsome. But actually getting
it to work in practice? Likely much less effective than you think it
is.
-Peter
James Coupe
>> At maximum, you will tap one minion (or
>> force them to lose a Wake), and you generally don't need it if you
>> really have stealth.
>
>Which is often all you need--if your prey has a single minion untapped
>and you don't want, like, you weenies blocked, someone needs to take
>the hit anyway. You might as well take the hit and then continue in
>the action.
To me, the best way of thinking about Ambulance is: Do you like Form of
Mist? Form of Mist is great. Bleed, tap a blocker, surprise, go again.
Now, Ambulance is a weaker disciplineless version - in plain sight, and
no stealth. But still pretty darn good, if you think you can survive
combat.
On top of that, it has a fringe benefit against the Imbued. Woo.
<snip - Preternatural Strength>
>Yeah, you could tweak it out with weird card fetching tech, but then
>you are building an elaborate infrastructure just to avoid including
>10 Preternatural Strength when you really only need 1 of them in play
>ever.
<snip - down to the next relevant point>
>You are *sooooo* ignoring the opportunity cost of Preturnatural
>Strength. In an abolute vaccum, it looks awsome. But actually getting
>it to work in practice? Likely much less effective than you think it
>is.
I think these points, in concert, sort of sum up where Preternatural
Strength has the potential to be great.
1) Duffin Draft. Got a vampire with POT? Potential shenanigans ahoy!
2) Internal Recursion draft. Take a card onto a vampire, recycle your
bleed modifiers for bruise bleed, or your enter combat cards, or
something like that.
3) Twister decks. A !Brujah Waste Management Operation that can recycle
Disarm with gay abandon, and doesn't need to waste its time with
getting Torn Signposts back? A Giovanni deck recycling cards,
and using Preternatural Strength to get people to fuck off?
Seems potentially good to me.
4) A Short Chain deck that wants some hit back - preferably with some
untap, to make taking the action less painful.
Dedicated weenie to midcap rush decks seem to care less for it, though
might include one or two.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Ector
> > Weenie ANI intercept might be a good thing, but Animalism combat
> > cannot beat Combat Ends.
>
> Sure it can.
> Pack Alpha, Dog Pack. Expensive, but oh, so effective. And then you
> Heidleberg it around.
Lord Ashton and Bear Paw are Gangrels with superior Animalism and
capacity 5 or less. If you want larger capacity, you probably are
going to use other disciplines, too.
> Or you can just iterate them out of their hand because you rush with
> so many guys from Haven or Frontal Assault.
Yes, you can - but you will need a lot of combat cards (especially
Crows) too. Example: you rush, play Crows and force them to play S:CE.
You rush once more, another Crows - and another S:CE. If you have no
Crows at the moment, is there any point in rushing?
Overall, I don't think that weenie Animalism rush is as good, as, say,
weenie Potence or weenie Celerity rush. Weenie Animalism intercept, on
the other hand, can be quite strong. Especially now, with Sense the
Savage Way.
Yours,
Ector
J
> > Pack Alpha, Dog Pack. Expensive, but oh, so effective. And then you
> > Heidleberg it around.
>
> Dog Pack isn't Animalism card, it's Gangrel card. Only Bobby Lemon,
> Lord Ashton and Bear Paw are Gangrels with superior Animalism and
> capacity 5 or less. If you want larger capacity, you probably are
> going to use other disciplines, too.
Who says you have to have only minions with ANI. ani + skill cards is
fine. And did you miss the fact that I said Heidleberg it? Plus it
doesn't have to be an animalism for Pack Alpha, just an animal.
Pack Alpha
Combat
A vampire may play only one Pack Alpha each round. [ani] Employ an
animal retainer from your hand before range is determined. Pay cost as
normal. [ANI] Burn an animal retainer employed by this vampire and put
this card on this vampire. The minion with this card gets +1 strength.
A minion may have only one Pack Alpha.
Dog Pack
Retainer, 2 pool
Animal with 1 life. Minions opposing the minion with this retainer
cannot end combat as a strike.
You need to read the cards a bit harder.
> weenie Potence or weenie Celerity rush. Weenie Animalism intercept, on
> the other hand, can be quite strong. Especially now, with Sense the
> Savage Way.
Seriously, you need to read cards harder.
Sense the Savage Way
Reaction
Requires a vampire with capacity above 6.[ani] +1 intercept.[ANI]
Usable only by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to
block.
So how can Sense the Savage Way work with Weenies? 7+ is the cap
needed to play it.
Ector
> On Oct 9, 9:14 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > At maximum, you will tap one minion (or
> > force them to lose a Wake), and you generally don't need it if you
> > really have stealth.
>
> Which is often all you need--if your prey has a single minion untapped
> and you don't want, like, you weenies blocked, someone needs to take
> the hit anyway. You might as well take the hit and then continue in
> the action.
it? Probably, with a way to survive the combat? :)
This is nearly impossible in a stealthy deck: you need stealth and the
"payload". You can have some place for the combat defense, but not
much. And you will never have place for BOTH combat defense and
Ambulances :)
> > Weenie ANI intercept might be a good thing, but Animalism combat
> > cannot beat Combat Ends.
>
> Doesn't need to. It needs to block you and use a coupel cards to wear
> you down. Weenie ANI decks are very effective.
Even so, I can hardly believe that anyone is going to pack special
defense against them.
> > In this deck, the Mesu is good at least 90% of the time, as it's the
> > special deck to demonstrate this.
>
> Build the deck. Play the deck. Come back and let us know how it goes.
This will inevitably take a lot of time, especially here in Minsk. But
if you have any reason to doubt in this deck, please go ahead!
> > At least it's the most effective thing. You not only prevent dying
> > yourself, but use your predator's force to oust your prey.
>
> Which is why it is reasonable to create a generally useful hoser to
> downpower bleed bounce--it is probably too powerful in the first
> place.
Bounce cannot be too powerful, it's DEFENSE. Bounce isn't very
effective if your predator bleeds only for 1, is decent if he bleeds
for 2, and becomes "too powerful" only when he bleeds for 3 or more.
So, let's make powerbleeder's life better?
> > How it helps a deck that doesn't have heavy bleeds? You want to
> > prohibit your predator from bouncing to you? I don't think that it
> > worth including Narrow Minds.
>
> Then clearly, your mind is narrow. Narrow Minds is a card that
> benefits every deck that does not include bounce. Because it punishes
> everyone who isn't you.
Oh yes, I see. Hurting everyone who isn't you is *good*, even if you
hurt your grandprey, who becomes unable to bounce heavy bleeds of your
prey and gets ousted :)
I'm trying to avoid cards that "hurt everyone who isn't me": I need to
hurt only my prey and my predator most of the time, and I need to
CONTROL that hurt. Thus, I've never played Judgement: Camarilla
Segregation or Leandro. My mind is not narrow, I just hate such
things.
Good luck to you with helping your S&B prey in ousting the whole table
using your Narrow Minds. I suggest adding Antediluvian Awakening to
help him even more :)
> Even if you only use 1 point bleeds ever, your
> prey benefits from playing a bleed bounce card (as instead of taking a
> 1 point bleed, their prey is taking a 1 point bleed).
False. They pay 1 blood for their bounce and tap their vampire or lose
a Wake. So they win nothing on bouncing 1, unless it's crucial for
their prey.
> Making them pay
> 2 for that makes the exchange work to your benefit. Even if your
> predator is only bouncing 1 point bleeds to you, making them pay 2
> blood to do so makes it less likely they will bother.
They would try to avoid bouncing 1, but they would still bounce 3, if
they can. All you get is slowering your predator that may be forced to
hunt after the bounce. Not a large benefit, considering the possible
negative consequences of the card.
> People who are
> using bounce are relying on it to make their deck work. If you, even
> if you have no heavy bleeds to speak of, make their bounce less
> effective? You make their decks less effective. While not making your
> own deck less effective. It is a win/win for you.
Bounce is DEFENSE. No one is *relying* on it: what if your predator
never bleeds you? If you play Narrow Minds, you slow the blood-
intensive decks with bounce, you help S&B, and you get nothing for
yourself unless your predator is a blood-intensive not-that-aggressive
deck with bounce.
> > I don't think so. Every deck with heavy bleeds, maybe.
>
> You are clearly missing out on the large picture this card paints.
As well as you.
> > That's the thing. You were paying 10 pool (and 10 transfers) for Laz
> > since you wanted his title, his AUS/POT/FOR/DOM and, especially, his
> > +2 strength. Now you can take other good vamps (that have no +2
> > strength but have some other cool abilities) and "upgrade" them.
>
> Only by including cards in your deck that you need to draw to make
> your deck go.
Preternatural Strength may be not *necessary*, but useful. You can
increase damage with Undead Strength/ Pushing the Limit/ Increased
Strength/ whatever.
> In this deck you are envisioning, how many Preternatural Strengths are
> you including? As opposed to how many you are actually going to need
> to get into play? If you include 4, you likely don't draw them early.
> If you include 6-8, you end up with a lot of dead cards. I don't know
> about you, but I generally find that if I don't have 10+ of a given
> card that I *need* to make the deck go? I don't draw them early
> enough.
Yes, you may fail to get PretStrength in your starting hand, but this
is rarely crucial. For instance, Nosferatu Princes can play their game
of blocking/Parity Shifting/Anathema until they get PretStrength.
> Yeah, you could tweak it out with weird card fetching tech, but then
> you are building an elaborate infrastructure just to avoid including
> 10 Preternatural Strength when you really only need 1 of them in play
> ever.
Weird card fetching tech? Sometimes not. If you are building a deck
based on Jalan-Aajav/Teresita, supported by Wah Chun-Yuen and Nails,
are Drop Point Networks "weird"? I don't think so.
> > Sheldon/Selma/Nicolaus are younger than Laz, they cannot be PTOed, and
> > they have access to the great Camarilla cards like 2nd Tradition and
> > Parity Shift. You are taking much less risk with them: if you lose
> > your Sheldon, you aren't dead yet, but if you lose Laz, you are. And
> > now they can all have +2 strength just for an action that costs 1
> > blood!
>
> If they draw the card early enough. And if you are including 10
> Preternatural Strengths, how is that really any better than using 10
> Torn Signposts?
It's much better if I really HAVE to get that +2 strength. Since in
that case it would be much better to have some dead cards than to sit
without the additional strength. 10 Torn Signposts are not enough: you
will participate in much more than 10 combats. This is especially true
if you're trying to stop a weenie: you play TS, they dodge, you lost a
card; or you play TS + IG and torporize one of them, but there are 8
more...
Fortunately, most decks don't need +2 strength that much, so you can
put just 6-8 PretStrength and free more space for IG, Disarms, and,
probably, Street Creds.
> > I wanted to note that permanent +2 strength is a huge bonus that was
> > never granted so easily as with Preternatural Strength.
>
> A) The Create A Clan rules are not connected to the actualy rules.
They really aren't. Still, there are some rules that WW designers
tried to follow: the youngest vampire with unconditional +2 strength
was 8-cap Mateusz Gryzbowsky that paid a LOT of "points" for this
advantage. Besides him, there were only TWO vampires with +2 str: 10-
cap Laz and 11-cap Enkidu.
Also, there weren't any way to provide permanent +2 strength with a
single card prior to Preternatural Strength. This card is a serious
change of the "rules".
> B) If it takes 10 cards to reliably grant +2 strength permanently, you
> could get the same effect with 10 Torn Signposts without paying blood
> or taking actions and having dead cards in your deck.
You won't gain the SAME effect. My Create Gargoyle deck has 12 IG,
and, you know, I constantly have to fight without it. The same about
TS.
Besides, you don't always need 10 PretStrengths. If you play a Potence
weenie, you may really need 10, if you play Nosferatu Princes, you may
need just 4.
> > I wasn't trying to compare them. But they are similar in this:
> > permanent +2 strength, as well as permanent +2 stealth should NOT be
> > granted so easily (just for an action that costs 1 blood and performed
> > at +2 stealth).
>
> You are *sooooo* ignoring the opportunity cost of Preturnatural
> Strength. In an abolute vaccum, it looks awsome. But actually getting
> it to work in practice? Likely much less effective than you think it
> is.
Maybe, but still MUCH more effective than TS in many, many various
decks. Especially considering Disarm and Street Cred that require to
deal more damage. Let's say that you cycle half of your library in 6-7
turns - you will have just half of your TS, probably 4-5, but you may
play much more combats. In the same time you get half of your
PretStrengths - but each will work for several combats. Yes, there is
an opportunity cost, too - but PretStrength is still very attractive.
Yours,
Ector
Peter D Bakija
> So you will be PLANNING such situation and pack Ambulances to handle
> it? Probably, with a way to survive the combat? :)
Uh, you are familiar with Form of Mist, right? People plan on that all
the time. Maybe Majesty/Ambulance for a Tap-n-Bleed Toreador deck?
> This is nearly impossible in a stealthy deck: you need stealth and the
> "payload". You can have some place for the combat defense, but not
> much. And you will never have place for BOTH combat defense and
> Ambulances :)
Ambulance takes up 2 slots. Maybe 3.
> Even so, I can hardly believe that anyone is going to pack special
> defense against them.
If you run into a lot in local play? The fortitude card starts to look
good. I'm not here saying that it is the best card ever. Just that
there are situations where it is ok. And in limited play (draft), it
is totally fantastic. Especially considering the common Melee weapons
in the set.
> This will inevitably take a lot of time, especially here in Minsk. But
> if you have any reason to doubt in this deck, please go ahead!
I have only reason to believe that the deck you present will be more
or less adaquate. Sometimes it will do well. Sometimes it will crash
and burn. But it will hardle sweep every game. Just like most other
decks that are reasonably good. You are the one presenting Mesu
Bedshet as some sort of crazy power card. I'm just not seeing it.
> Bounce cannot be too powerful, it's DEFENSE.
That makes no sense. Defense can be too powerful. Imagine, if you
will:
"Super Bounce!"
dom
zero cost
Play when a minion is bleeding you. Change the taget of that bleed.
After the bleed resolves, burn the acting minion.
That is defense. That is too powerful.
Bleed Bounce, as a defense, is likely too powerful, and always has
been, in the sense that the cost (a blood and an untapped minion,
generaly speaking) is vastly outweighed by the effect (save yourself
pool *and* potentially make your prey lose pool. Too low of a cost for
too strong of an effect.
Narrow Minds addresses this by making the cost higher. Which is
reasonable. Makes playing Bounce more of a gamble.
> Bounce isn't very
> effective if your predator bleeds only for 1, is decent if he bleeds
> for 2, and becomes "too powerful" only when he bleeds for 3 or more.
Spending 1 blood to save yourself a pool and make your prey lose a
pool is a fantastic deal in and of itself. Increase the bleed and it
only gets better.
> So, let's make powerbleeder's life better?
Paying 2 blood to bounce a bleed of 5 at +2 stealth to your prey is
*still* the best bargain in the game.
> Oh yes, I see. Hurting everyone who isn't you is *good*, even if you
> hurt your grandprey, who becomes unable to bounce heavy bleeds of your
> prey and gets ousted.
Your grandprey can still bounce bleeds. It just costs more.
> False. They pay 1 blood for their bounce and tap their vampire or lose
> a Wake. So they win nothing on bouncing 1, unless it's crucial for
> their prey.
They trade 1 blood for saving a pool and making their prey lose a pool
(or block, opening up the next action for you). This is a good trade.
If you are being bled for more, all the better.
> Bounce is DEFENSE. No one is *relying* on it:
If it is in your deck, you are relying on it. Otherwise, it shouldn't
be in your deck. If your preadator never bleeds you? You are sad, as
you have a bunch of dead cards. Which probably hurts you.
> As well as you.
I know you are, but what am I?
> Preternatural Strength may be not *necessary*, but useful.
Holy crap. I never said it wasn't *useful*. Just not super powered.
For reasons I have articulated at length (mostly opportunity cost
issues).
> Yes, you may fail to get PretStrength in your starting hand, but this
> is rarely crucial. For instance, Nosferatu Princes can play their game
> of blocking/Parity Shifting/Anathema until they get PretStrength.
Ok. If you are building a deck that wants +2 strength from PS, you
want to draw it ealy to use it. If you are building a deck that
doesn't need the +2 strength early on, then who cares? If the Nos
Prince deck can kill you with blocking/Parity Shift/Anathema *without*
PS, then why is it even in the deck?
If PS in in there as a random lark, 'cause once and a while having +2
strength is going to be fun, who cares? It could just as well be a
Bang Nahk. If it is in there 'cause your deck is built around having
+2 strength, you need to draw it early enough to make the deck go.
PS is once and a while going to be handy. Some decks are going to love
it. But is it the wildly overpowered card you seemed to envision it
as? Hardly.
> Weird card fetching tech? Sometimes not. If you are building a deck
> based on Jalan-Aajav/Teresita, supported by Wah Chun-Yuen and Nails,
> are Drop Point Networks "weird"? I don't think so.
You then need to have Black Hand. And 7 cards in your ashheap. And pay
a pool and an MPA. This is extra infrastructure. And if you can draw a
Drop Point Network, it could have just been a PS in the first place.
> Also, there weren't any way to provide permanent +2 strength with a
> single card prior to Preternatural Strength. This card is a serious
> change of the "rules".
This is so completely irrelevant. There also wasn't a way to make 5
mummies from crypt cards. That isn't relevant either.
> Yes, there is
> an opportunity cost, too - but PretStrength is still very attractive.
Sure. But it isn't particularly overpowered. Whch is what you were
claiming earlier.
-Peter
James Coupe
D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> writes:
>On Oct 10, 11:48 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>> Bounce cannot be too powerful, it's DEFENSE.
>
>That makes no sense. Defense can be too powerful.
Bowl of Convergence and Michael Luther called to let everyone know that
they're defense too.
Cannot EVER be too powerful, oh yes.
Blooded Sand
> In message <1192033000.611987.222...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Peter
>
> D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> writes:
> >On Oct 10, 11:48 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> >> Bounce cannot be too powerful, it's DEFENSE.
>
> >That makes no sense. Defense can be too powerful.
>
> Bowl of Convergence and Michael Luther called to let everyone know that
> they're defense too.
>
> Cannot EVER be too powerful, oh yes.
>
> --
> James Coupe
> PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
> EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
> 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Sniper rifle called in to say that he and Anneke are very miffed about
being overlooked as weak defence too...
Salem
> On Oct 10, 8:19 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> In message <1192033000.611987.222...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Peter
>>
>> D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> writes:
>> >On Oct 10, 11:48 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>> >> Bounce cannot be too powerful, it's DEFENSE.
>>
>> >That makes no sense. Defense can be too powerful.
>>
>> Bowl of Convergence and Michael Luther called to let everyone know that
>> they're defense too.
>>
>> Cannot EVER be too powerful, oh yes.
> Sniper rifle called in to say that he and Anneke are very miffed about
> being overlooked as weak defence too...
I think James was maybe making more of a comment on Ector's seeming
change of heart regarding defense ever being too powerful.
For example:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/8a6773bb06d070a2
In which Ector stated quite boldly:
"The Bowl is obviously broken!!!"
But if defense cannot be too powerful, how could it possibly be so
powerful that it's broken?
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Salem
Although to be fair he did kind of admit he may have overreacted to the
Bowl in this message:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e4e3934c685ced2c
Ector
> > > Sure it can.
> > > Pack Alpha, Dog Pack. Expensive, but oh, so effective. And then you
> > > Heidleberg it around.
>
> > Dog Pack isn't Animalism card, it's Gangrel card. Only Bobby Lemon,
> > Lord Ashton and Bear Paw are Gangrels with superior Animalism and
> > capacity 5 or less. If you want larger capacity, you probably are
> > going to use other disciplines, too.
>
> Who says you have to have only minions with ANI. ani + skill cards is
> fine. And did you miss the fact that I said Heidleberg it? Plus it
> doesn't have to be an animalism for Pack Alpha, just an animal.
meant that most of Animalism cards won't be much effective at
inferior: Carrion Crows just for 1, Aid from Bats without press, and
so on. In Potence weenie, even inferior Potence is enough to use Lids/
Gates/Increased Strength. You can use discipline cards, but a combat
deck cannot have a lot of masters.
> Seriously, you need to read cards harder.
>
> Sense the Savage Way
> Reaction
> Requires a vampire with capacity above 6.[ani] +1 intercept.[ANI]
> Usable only by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to
> block.
>
> So how can Sense the Savage Way work with Weenies? 7+ is the cap
> needed to play it.
Oh, really, I need to read the cards harder :) Thanks for pointing it
out.
Yours,
Ector
Ector
>
> To me, the best way of thinking about Ambulance is: Do you like Form of
> Mist? Form of Mist is great. Bleed, tap a blocker, surprise, go again.
> Now, Ambulance is a weaker disciplineless version - in plain sight, and
> no stealth. But still pretty darn good, if you think you can survive
> combat.
Mist is S:CE, not "action continies as unblocked".
If you have Form of Mist, then you can allow them to block you (as
long as you're sure that the blocker cannot beat your S:CE), if you
have Ambulance, you cannot, unless you have other combat defense. If
Ambulance provided S:CE, it would be a great card.
> On top of that, it has a fringe benefit against the Imbued. Woo.
Well, this is almost the ONLY benefit from this card. Too little for
an 1-pool vehicle.
Yours,
Ector
Ector
> In message <1192033000.611987.222...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Peter
>
> >On Oct 10, 11:48 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> >> Bounce cannot be too powerful, it's DEFENSE.
>
> >That makes no sense. Defense can be too powerful.
>
> Bowl of Convergence and Michael Luther called to let everyone know that
> they're defense too.
too. Bowl is pure defense, yes.
Anyway, I'm so happy that you remember my words for so long time...
but, really, it's time to forget them :)
Yours,
Ector
Peter D Bakija
> Ambulance is NOT Form of Mist. The major effect of superior Form of
> Mist is S:CE, not "action continies as unblocked".
You can call that the "major effect" if you want, but there are whole
decks (that are very successful, I might add) that specifically
revolve around Form of Mist's "continue the action as if
unblocked" (as otherwise, you'd use the free Earth Meld instead).
Being able to continue an action as if unblocked after being blocked?
Very useful ability.
> If you have Form of Mist, then you can allow them to block you (as
> long as you're sure that the blocker cannot beat your S:CE), if you
> have Ambulance, you cannot, unless you have other combat defense. If
> Ambulance provided S:CE, it would be a great card.
Have some vision. Ambulance turns Majesty into Form of Mist--go get
blocked, play Majesty, untap, use Ambulance to continue as if
unblocked, if they try and block again, play some stealth. You succeed
in your action (bleeding for 5?), tap a potential blocker for your
other minions, and end the action untapped. Sounds like a good plan to
me. What? What is that you say? You need stealth? That is crazy talk!
No one has Presence *and* Obfuscate...
> Well, this is almost the ONLY benefit from this card. Too little for
> an 1-pool vehicle.
If you say so.
-Peter
coincoi...@hotmail.com
My prey has Lambach untapped with bowl of convergence and eternal
vigilance.
I play bowl of convergence - seducing Lambach to contest it.
This is not defense ^^
coincoi...@hotmail.com
>
> Have some vision. Ambulance turns Majesty into Form of Mist--go get
> blocked, play Majesty, untap, use Ambulance to continue as if
> unblocked, if they try and block again, play some stealth. You succeed
> in your action (bleeding for 5?), tap a potential blocker for your
> other minions, and end the action untapped. Sounds like a good plan to
> me. What? What is that you say? You need stealth? That is crazy talk!
> No one has Presence *and* Obfuscate...
>
> > Well, this is almost the ONLY benefit from this card. Too little for
> > an 1-pool vehicle.
>
> If you say so.
>
> -Peter
I must agree with Peter. A lot of decks could have fantastic use of
Ambulance, starting with all tap' n bleed decks in fact.
Ector
> On Oct 10, 11:48 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > So you will be PLANNING such situation and pack Ambulances to handle
> > it? Probably, with a way to survive the combat? :)
>
> Uh, you are familiar with Form of Mist, right? People plan on that all
> the time. Maybe Majesty/Ambulance for a Tap-n-Bleed Toreador deck?
to equip Ambulance in your "Tap-n-Bleed Toreador deck"?
> > This is nearly impossible in a stealthy deck: you need stealth and the
> > "payload". You can have some place for the combat defense, but not
> > much. And you will never have place for BOTH combat defense and
> > Ambulances :)
>
> Ambulance takes up 2 slots. Maybe 3.
If you spend those 2-3 slots on allies, you will get some protection
against rushes. If you spend them on "payload", on bounce, or even on
stealth - all will be better than Ambulance.
> > Even so, I can hardly believe that anyone is going to pack special
> > defense against them.
>
> If you run into a lot in local play? The fortitude card starts to look
> good. I'm not here saying that it is the best card ever. Just that
> there are situations where it is ok. And in limited play (draft), it
> is totally fantastic. Especially considering the common Melee weapons
> in the set.
It isn't even a "good" card. It can beat other Fortitude cards only
against one combat archetype. I can agree that it's an uber-cornercase
card that can see play only in the specific metagames, but for me
that's still sounds almost as "unplayable".
> > This will inevitably take a lot of time, especially here in Minsk. But
> > if you have any reason to doubt in this deck, please go ahead!
>
> I have only reason to believe that the deck you present will be more
> or less adaquate. Sometimes it will do well. Sometimes it will crash
> and burn. But it will hardle sweep every game. Just like most other
> decks that are reasonably good. You are the one presenting Mesu
> Bedshet as some sort of crazy power card. I'm just not seeing it.
How do you think it can "crash and burn"? Yes, sometimes I will get no
6-cap or no Obfuscate, or no Mesu, but the chances of this are low.
Will you say that Arika deck "sometimes will crash" just because you
can get all 4 Arikas of your 5? Yes, you can get them, so what? Chance
is so small that it can be safely ignored.
Now please look at the "goldfish" of this deck. First turn Info HW,
influence a 6-cap. Second turn Obfuscate, Mesu, you have 2 pool in
your uncontrolled region and 6 more transfers, so you're likely to
influence 2 more vampires. More vampires = more actions, so you can
bleed and summon Waters, plus you can block rushes.
It may fail to sweep every game, but is't rather aggressive and very
difficult to stop. Thanks to Mesu.
> That is defense. That is too powerful.
Yes, I see your point. The defense can be too powerful, but I strongly
disagree that bounce was too powerful prior to Narrow Minds.
> Bleed Bounce, as a defense, is likely too powerful, and always has
> been, in the sense that the cost (a blood and an untapped minion,
> generaly speaking) is vastly outweighed by the effect (save yourself
> pool *and* potentially make your prey lose pool. Too low of a cost for
> too strong of an effect.
>
> Narrow Minds addresses this by making the cost higher. Which is
> reasonable. Makes playing Bounce more of a gamble.
Bouncing bleed for 1 for 1 blood and 2 cards (bounce card + Wake)
isn't good enough, unless you're ready to oust yout prey. Bouncing
bleed for 2 does more-or-less worth these 2 cards + 1 blood, and only
bouncing bleeds for 3+ makes bounce "too powerful". But if you take
the opportunity cost into account (not every predator bleeds you for
3... or bleeds you at all), you will have to agree that bounce isn't
overpowered.
Narrow Minds, as I said several times, helps aggressive bleeders, does
nothing to the decks without bounce and hurts "peaceful" decks with
bounce. Its effect isn't really huge, but it's still bad for the game.
> > Bounce isn't very
> > effective if your predator bleeds only for 1, is decent if he bleeds
> > for 2, and becomes "too powerful" only when he bleeds for 3 or more.
>
> Spending 1 blood to save yourself a pool and make your prey lose a
> pool is a fantastic deal in and of itself. Increase the bleed and it
> only gets better.
Spending 1 blood + 2 cards (bounce + Wake) for that is NOT a fantastic
deal, unless you or you prey is really short of pool, and each single
pool matters.
> > So, let's make powerbleeder's life better?
>
> Paying 2 blood to bounce a bleed of 5 at +2 stealth to your prey is
> *still* the best bargain in the game.
Firstly, bleeders still have all previous anti-bounce cards. If you
played Lost In Translation for 3 blood and tapped your large vampire
to bounce a bleed of 5 at +2 stealth only to see Spying Mission, your
predator can consider that a successful bleeding.
Secondly, bleed bounce is most effective only if you really threat to
oust your prey before your predator ousts you. Narrow Minds greatly
reduces this threat: even if you bounce, you will lose a lot of blood
and you'd be forced to lose some time for hunting. That will greatly
increase chances of your predator and decrease yours.
> > Oh yes, I see. Hurting everyone who isn't you is *good*, even if you
> > hurt your grandprey, who becomes unable to bounce heavy bleeds of your
> > prey and gets ousted.
>
> Your grandprey can still bounce bleeds. It just costs more.
See above. "Costs more" means slowing him, and if he's slowed, his
bounce becomes much less effective, up to the point where his bounce
starts to help his predator in ousting his next prey.
> > False. They pay 1 blood for their bounce and tap their vampire or lose
> > a Wake. So they win nothing on bouncing 1, unless it's crucial for
> > their prey.
>
> They trade 1 blood for saving a pool and making their prey lose a pool
> (or block, opening up the next action for you). This is a good trade.
> If you are being bled for more, all the better.
Not just 1 blood, but 1 blood + 2 cards (Bounce + Wake). You can do a
lot of things with two cards, really.
> > Bounce is DEFENSE. No one is *relying* on it:
>
> If it is in your deck, you are relying on it. Otherwise, it shouldn't
> be in your deck. If your preadator never bleeds you? You are sad, as
> you have a bunch of dead cards. Which probably hurts you.
I'm *relying* on the cards that don't need my predator's actions to be
played, or just work for ANY predator's actions, like intercept.
Bounce is used to defend against heavy bleeds. If nobody bleeds more
than for 2 in your metagame, you'd probably better get rid of bounce
cards at all. The cards you can use instead of bounce will be much
more useful to you.
> > As well as you.
>
> I know you are, but what am I?
Here's the full version:
---------------
> You are clearly missing out on the large picture this card paints.
As well as you.
--------------
> > Preternatural Strength may be not *necessary*, but useful.
>
> Holy crap. I never said it wasn't *useful*. Just not super powered.
> For reasons I have articulated at length (mostly opportunity cost
> issues).
I didn't say it's *overpowered*, either. I just said that permanent +2
strength for just 1 blood and +2 stealth action is too good according
to the previously existing standards (there were few vampires with
permanent +2 str, and there were no ways to get +2 str with a single
card). Somebody clearly decided to revise the standards in the most
radical way.
And it's really strange that nobody seems to get bothered. Permanent
+2 strength is NOT the same as bunch of TS, as well as permanent +2
stealth is not the same as bunch of Lost in Crowds.
> > Yes, you may fail to get PretStrength in your starting hand, but this
> > is rarely crucial. For instance, Nosferatu Princes can play their game
> > of blocking/Parity Shifting/Anathema until they get PretStrength.
>
> Ok. If you are building a deck that wants +2 strength from PS, you
> want to draw it ealy to use it. If you are building a deck that
> doesn't need the +2 strength early on, then who cares? If the Nos
> Prince deck can kill you with blocking/Parity Shift/Anathema *without*
> PS, then why is it even in the deck?
>
> If PS in in there as a random lark, 'cause once and a while having +2
> strength is going to be fun, who cares? It could just as well be a
> Bang Nahk. If it is in there 'cause your deck is built around having
> +2 strength, you need to draw it early enough to make the deck go.
>
> PS is once and a while going to be handy. Some decks are going to love
> it. But is it the wildly overpowered card you seemed to envision it
> as? Hardly.
Some decks *need* certain cards ASAP. Other cards may be just a good
addition. You can determine the optimal number of PretStrengths in
your deck, and, believe me, it's much better to have some dead cards
later in the game than to fight without the additional strength in the
midgame. You may simply not live long enough to have dead cards :)
> > Weird card fetching tech? Sometimes not. If you are building a deck
> > based on Jalan-Aajav/Teresita, supported by Wah Chun-Yuen and Nails,
> > are Drop Point Networks "weird"? I don't think so.
>
> You then need to have Black Hand. And 7 cards in your ashheap. And pay
> a pool and an MPA. This is extra infrastructure. And if you can draw a
> Drop Point Network, it could have just been a PS in the first place.
It could be ONE PS. And if you are playing Jalan-Aajav, you will fight
at least 2-3 times per turn.
Also, I don't think that having Black Hand, 7 cards in my ash-heap and
MPA can be called "infrastructure". I will get this automatically in
the Black Hand deck.
> > Also, there weren't any way to provide permanent +2 strength with a
> > single card prior to Preternatural Strength. This card is a serious
> > change of the "rules".
>
> This is so completely irrelevant. There also wasn't a way to make 5
> mummies from crypt cards. That isn't relevant either.
Irrelevant to what? I was saying that with the cards like PretStrength
(and, probably, Street Cred) the game balance was completely changed.
Potence became much, much stronger, and I'm not sure that it's good.
Currently Potence is much stronger than it was *EVER*.
Spell of Life is barely playable and I don't believe that it will
change something. You need five copies of it, five turns to play them
and five vampires in your uncontrolled region.
> > Yes, there is
> > an opportunity cost, too - but PretStrength is still very attractive.
>
> Sure. But it isn't particularly overpowered. Whch is what you were
> claiming earlier.
This depends on the meaning of the word "overpowered". "Too powerful"?
Probably not. "Much more powerful than all previously existing
analogues"? Clearly yes. That's what I meant.
Yours,
Ector
sutekh_23
> Bouncing bleed for 1 for 1 blood and 2 cards (bounce card + Wake)
> isn't good enough, unless you're ready to oust yout prey. Bouncing
> bleed for 2 does more-or-less worth these 2 cards + 1 blood, and only
> bouncing bleeds for 3+ makes bounce "too powerful". But if you take
> the opportunity cost into account (not every predator bleeds you for
> 3... or bleeds you at all), you will have to agree that bounce isn't
> overpowered.
> Narrow Minds, as I said several times, helps aggressive bleeders, does
> nothing to the decks without bounce and hurts "peaceful" decks with
> bounce. Its effect isn't really huge, but it's still bad for the game.
>
Yes, you're right, bouncing a bleed for one at the cost of 2 cards and
a blood is overpriced, which is why most bounce decks ignore the
bleeds for one and bounce the higher bleeds. Also, most decks
featuring bounce tend to keep a minion untaped to play their
deflections, so it really only one card and a blood for the most part.
As for "not every predator bleeds you" umm, bleed is the basic oust
strategy of every deck. Sure you may vote your way to victory, but
that requires titles, bigger minions etc and even then I'll bet that
amongst all those votes is a few governs/ aires/ whatever in the deck
for a lunge as needed.
As for narrow minds I can see where you are coming from in regards to
"helping" aggressive bleeders but the connection is so tenuous as to
be almost negligable. In an earlier post you said that the
powerbleeder's have access to bounce, sure they do, but your 3-5 cap
weenie DOM guys won't be bleeding so hard or as often when they have
to pay for both their bleed mods and the ability to bounce as well.
Remember, your current discussion is "bounce is overpriced in terms of
blood and cards" Don't turn around and say the weenie powerbleeder can
absorb the cost any better than any other deck.
Finally, let me clear something up for you. Bounce is defense as much
as a jedi with a lightsabre deflecting blaster bolts back to his
enemies. There is no such thing as "peaceful" bounce. Bounce is used
to turn your predators attacks on you to your prey (mostly). You force
both your predator and bounce victim to expend resources that could be
used on ousting you or preventing you from playing your game.
For Example:
Meth A: I bleed you for one
Meth B: I wake and block
Meth A: (plays random stealth card) I bleed you for one at X stealth
Meth B: Damn, no block
Meth A: I play (random bleed boost) I bleed you for Y at X stealth
Meth B: I play deflection, target is Meth C
Meth C: Grr, I wake and play Z intercept card.
Meth A: blocked, hands for 1??
This is the most basic form of bounce. It has cost Meth A 2 cards and
associated blood cost, plus the one blood from the resulting combat
and most importantly, a "wasted" action. It has cost Meth C a wake, an
intercept card and it's blood cost, and the one damage from the
combat. It has cost Meth B a wake and a deflection (one blood) Do the
math and find out who is ahead in card/ blood cost. Of course, endless
permutations of this format exist, so don't bother trying to pick one
out to be "better"
If you were really trying to be "peaceful" you would be using bleed
reduce, not bounce. Narrow minds represents a global effect to
increase the cost of bounce to make it either less attractive to
weenies or more useable for higher cap decks (and "strangely enough",
if you look at alot of the new cards they are pushing for a more mid
to high cap crypt selection)
> > > Bounce isn't very
> > > effective if your predator bleeds only for 1, is decent if he bleeds
> > > for 2, and becomes "too powerful" only when he bleeds for 3 or more.
>
> > Spending 1 blood to save yourself a pool and make your prey lose a
> > pool is a fantastic deal in and of itself. Increase the bleed and it
> > only gets better.
>
> Spending 1 blood + 2 cards (bounce + Wake) for that is NOT a fantastic
> deal, unless you or you prey is really short of pool, and each single
> pool matters.
>
Every point of pool matters if you fail to see this, god help you
cause V:tes players will just amaranth your ass :)
>
> Firstly, bleeders still have all previous anti-bounce cards. If you
> played Lost In Translation for 3 blood and tapped your large vampire
> to bounce a bleed of 5 at +2 stealth only to see Spying Mission, your
> predator can consider that a successful bleeding.
So setting up your prey to be ousted is a good thing?? How novel
> Secondly, bleed bounce is most effective only if you really threat to
> oust your prey before your predator ousts you. Narrow Minds greatly
> reduces this threat: even if you bounce, you will lose a lot of blood
> and you'd be forced to lose some time for hunting. That will greatly
> increase chances of your predator and decrease yours.
>
Ho hum, refer to my previous comments about this. Seriously dude, you
seem to argue a point in one "instance" and the argue the reverse in
the next. Bleed bounce is effective, period. It allows you to attack
your prey without needing to put your own minions in harms way.
> > > Oh yes, I see. Hurting everyone who isn't you is *good*, even if you
> > > hurt your grandprey, who becomes unable to bounce heavy bleeds of your
> > > prey and gets ousted.
>
Yes, Hurting everyone who isn't you is good
> > Your grandprey can still bounce bleeds. It just costs more.
>
> See above. "Costs more" means slowing him, and if he's slowed, his
> bounce becomes much less effective, up to the point where his bounce
> starts to help his predator in ousting his next prey.
>
Oh no!! I have to make my deck deal with the failings of others??
Excuse me but fuck that. if my GP is getting screwed by narrow minds,
then he deserves it.
> > > False. They pay 1 blood for their bounce and tap their vampire or lose
> > > a Wake. So they win nothing on bouncing 1, unless it's crucial for
> > > their prey.
>
> > They trade 1 blood for saving a pool and making their prey lose a pool
> > (or block, opening up the next action for you). This is a good trade.
> > If you are being bled for more, all the better.
>
> Not just 1 blood, but 1 blood + 2 cards (Bounce + Wake). You can do a
> lot of things with two cards, really.
>
> > > Bounce is DEFENSE. No one is *relying* on it:
>
No, it isn't
> > If it is in your deck, you are relying on it. Otherwise, it shouldn't
> > be in your deck. If your preadator never bleeds you? You are sad, as
> > you have a bunch of dead cards. Which probably hurts you.
>
> I'm *relying* on the cards that don't need my predator's actions to be
> played, or just work for ANY predator's actions, like intercept.
> Bounce is used to defend against heavy bleeds. If nobody bleeds more
> than for 2 in your metagame, you'd probably better get rid of bounce
> cards at all. The cards you can use instead of bounce will be much
> more useful to you.
If no one bled for more than 2 in my metagame I'd be a happy guy. It's
not going to happen however. As far as working for "working for ANY of
my predators actions" I invite you to meet weenie POT/ DOM, I hope you
have enough prevent or S:CE to survive it. Oh, and be able to do what
your deck does as well from torpor.
Sutekh_23
Thrall of Arika
> On Oct 10, 7:16 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:> On Oct 10, 11:48 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > > So you will be PLANNING such situation and pack Ambulances to handle
> > > it? Probably, with a way to survive the combat? :)
>
> > Uh, you are familiar with Form of Mist, right? People plan on that all
> > the time. Maybe Majesty/Ambulance for a Tap-n-Bleed Toreador deck?
>
> Ambulance is NOT Form of Mist. No S:CE, no +1 stealth. How do you plan
> to equip Ambulance in your "Tap-n-Bleed Toreador deck"?
Perhaps by using the new Resist Earth's Grasp? [CEL] +1 stealth? Or
this little thing called Toreador Grand Ball, which makes all non-
bleed actions unblockable. Or perhaps by playing smart and not trying
to equip it when you're actually facing an intercept deck that cares
to block such an action. Perhaps it's just your metagame, but I
certainly don't face intercept or even casual intercept decks as prey
every single game. Heck, I myself have a successful Istarri Presence
Bleed/Vote deck that _never_ attempts to block anything. I certainly
wouldn't waste efforts blocking an Amublance by my predator with that
deck.
In the end, it's a tool to enhance a deck strategy, not a card to base
the entire strategy around. Some games it will be extremely useful,
other games it will be dead weight.
I can see it being useful in rush decks too. Block my initial rush,
great, let's throw down. I bash your blocker and oh, what do you know,
I continue on and continue my rush against my original target for some
more beat down. Two combats for the price of one, sounds good to me.
> > > This will inevitably take a lot of time, especially here in Minsk. But
> > > if you have any reason to doubt in this deck, please go ahead!
>
> > I have only reason to believe that the deck you present will be more
> > or less adaquate. Sometimes it will do well. Sometimes it will crash
> > and burn. But it will hardle sweep every game. Just like most other
> > decks that are reasonably good. You are the one presenting Mesu
> > Bedshet as some sort of crazy power card. I'm just not seeing it.
>
> How do you think it can "crash and burn"? Yes, sometimes I will get no
> 6-cap or no Obfuscate, or no Mesu, but the chances of this are low.
> Will you say that Arika deck "sometimes will crash" just because you
> can get all 4 Arikas of your 5? Yes, you can get them, so what? Chance
> is so small that it can be safely ignored.
> Now please look at the "goldfish" of this deck. First turn Info HW,
> influence a 6-cap. Second turn Obfuscate, Mesu, you have 2 pool in
> your uncontrolled region and 6 more transfers, so you're likely to
> influence 2 more vampires. More vampires = more actions, so you can
> bleed and summon Waters, plus you can block rushes.
> It may fail to sweep every game, but is't rather aggressive and very
> difficult to stop. Thanks to Mesu.
Looking at your suggested deck, I envy your luck at getting a first
turn Info Highway every game. You're spending a fair bit of blood with
no gain. You have little defense if you get caught doing anything. And
it seems your idea of rush defense is to take an action to create a 1-
cap vampire. You have no bleed defense to speak of (No, I do not
consider 1 copy of Carlton Van Wyck bleed defense). Heck, if that
Ambulance deck is your predator, you're in trouble ... hey, what do
you know, your deck can't block that equip action.
Does it sound like fun to play? Depends if you like weenie bleed
decks. Not my cup of tea. I'd more likely use a few Mesu Bedhets to
help power along The Eternals of Serius, but then I like my big caps.
> > > So, let's make powerbleeder's life better?
>
> > Paying 2 blood to bounce a bleed of 5 at +2 stealth to your prey is
> > *still* the best bargain in the game.
>
> Firstly, bleeders still have all previous anti-bounce cards. If you
> played Lost In Translation for 3 blood and tapped your large vampire
> to bounce a bleed of 5 at +2 stealth only to see Spying Mission, your
> predator can consider that a successful bleeding.
Point being? That 3 blood saved you losing 5 pool. Most people would
rather lose even 5 blood off a vampire than lose 5 pool, even thought
the points are 'equivalent'. So what if your predator has a Spying
Mission on your prey? Heck, makes your next bounced bleed hit your
prey for +2 more pool. Wouldn't you rather their Spying Missions
played on someone other than yourself?
> Secondly, bleed bounce is most effective only if you really threat to
> oust your prey before your predator ousts you. Narrow Minds greatly
> reduces this threat: even if you bounce, you will lose a lot of blood
> and you'd be forced to lose some time for hunting. That will greatly
> increase chances of your predator and decrease yours.
Of course it's 'most effective' then, you're close to ousting and your
prey is playing more conservatively at they are teetering on the edge,
seeing they're on the brink. But a bounce for 5 at the beginning of
the game is the same net result as a bounce for 5 near the end of the
game.
> > > Oh yes, I see. Hurting everyone who isn't you is *good*, even if you
> > > hurt your grandprey, who becomes unable to bounce heavy bleeds of your
> > > prey and gets ousted.
>
> > Your grandprey can still bounce bleeds. It just costs more.
>
> See above. "Costs more" means slowing him, and if he's slowed, his
> bounce becomes much less effective, up to the point where his bounce
> starts to help his predator in ousting his next prey.
So is that not a boon for you? If you're bleeding your prey, it's
costing them more to bounce you. And you didn't even have to use up
card space for it.
> > > False. They pay 1 blood for their bounce and tap their vampire or lose
> > > a Wake. So they win nothing on bouncing 1, unless it's crucial for
> > > their prey.
>
> > They trade 1 blood for saving a pool and making their prey lose a pool
> > (or block, opening up the next action for you). This is a good trade.
> > If you are being bled for more, all the better.
>
> Not just 1 blood, but 1 blood + 2 cards (Bounce + Wake). You can do a
> lot of things with two cards, really.
If you're dedicated to bouncing, what else are you using your wakes
for? Your form of bouncing is always going to cost 1 blood and 1 card
no matter what. So what it comes down to is having your prey bled for
1 while you save being bled for 1 worth the one extra card. Most
times, I would probably agree and say it's not worth it. But then it
all depends on the game and the timing. If it's down to 3 players, I'm
sure your prey would love a chance to block and attempt to do some
damage to your predator.
> > > Bounce is DEFENSE. No one is *relying* on it:
>
> > If it is in your deck, you are relying on it. Otherwise, it shouldn't
> > be in your deck. If your preadator never bleeds you? You are sad, as
> > you have a bunch of dead cards. Which probably hurts you.
>
> I'm *relying* on the cards that don't need my predator's actions to be
> played, or just work for ANY predator's actions, like intercept.
> Bounce is used to defend against heavy bleeds. If nobody bleeds more
> than for 2 in your metagame, you'd probably better get rid of bounce
> cards at all. The cards you can use instead of bounce will be much
> more useful to you.
True enough, but do you often have games where absolutely no-one
bleeds for more than 2?
> > > Preternatural Strength may be not *necessary*, but useful.
>
> > Holy crap. I never said it wasn't *useful*. Just not super powered.
> > For reasons I have articulated at length (mostly opportunity cost
> > issues).
>
> I didn't say it's *overpowered*, either. I just said that permanent +2
> strength for just 1 blood and +2 stealth action is too good according
> to the previously existing standards (there were few vampires with
> permanent +2 str, and there were no ways to get +2 str with a single
> card). Somebody clearly decided to revise the standards in the most
> radical way.
> And it's really strange that nobody seems to get bothered. Permanent
> +2 strength is NOT the same as bunch of TS, as well as permanent +2
> stealth is not the same as bunch of Lost in Crowds.
Because in the end, it doesn't matter that much. If you're playing a
non-fighting deck and get caught, you know your vampire is in for a
world of hurt, whether the opposing minion has an extra +2 strength or
not. If you can already counter the Potence deck, you don't care about
+2 strength. It still takes an action, which is one action less that
your opponent will be using against you. It's certainly a strong card,
one that I see being sprikled into any combat deck that has Potence in
it. But without special set-up, I can still prevent _all_ the damage
for a cost of one blood using Fortitude, or take just 1 of the total
amount using Flesh to Marble. Or burn my Leather Jacket. Or Dodge, or
Combat Ends, or maneuver out to long if the combat strategy is close
range ...
And yes, it can make another vampire 'equivalent' to Lazverinus, or
Enkidu, or a close-range Mateusz, at the cost of a blood and an
action. And what do you know ... each of them can take the very same
action and retain their supremacy in permanent +strength.
> > > Also, there weren't any way to provide permanent +2 strength with a
> > > single card prior to Preternatural Strength. This card is a serious
> > > change of the "rules".
>
> > This is so completely irrelevant. There also wasn't a way to make 5
> > mummies from crypt cards. That isn't relevant either.
>
> Irrelevant to what? I was saying that with the cards like PretStrength
> (and, probably, Street Cred) the game balance was completely changed.
> Potence became much, much stronger, and I'm not sure that it's good.
> Currently Potence is much stronger than it was *EVER*.
Isn't that the idea of expansion, to build and improve upon things?
Presence bleed got much stronger with the addtion of Heart of the
City. Stealth got stronger with Blithe Acceptance. Intercept got
stronger with Bowl of Convergence, etc.
And Street Cred has imbalaced the game? How so?
> Spell of Life is barely playable and I don't believe that it will
> change something. You need five copies of it, five turns to play them
> and five vampires in your uncontrolled region.
... which can be easily done with regular transfers, Effective
Management and/or Mesu Bedshet. But perhaps I should not mention that
as it will fuel your claims of Mesu Bedshet's brokeness.
Chris, Thrall of Arika
Matthew T. Morgan
>> Ambulance is NOT Form of Mist. No S:CE, no +1 stealth. How do you plan
>> to equip Ambulance in your "Tap-n-Bleed Toreador deck"?
>
> Perhaps by using the new Resist Earth's Grasp? [CEL] +1 stealth? Or
> this little thing called Toreador Grand Ball, which makes all non-
> bleed actions unblockable. Or perhaps by playing smart and not trying
> to equip it when you're actually facing an intercept deck that cares
> to block such an action. Perhaps it's just your metagame, but I
> certainly don't face intercept or even casual intercept decks as prey
> every single game. Heck, I myself have a successful Istarri Presence
> Bleed/Vote deck that _never_ attempts to block anything. I certainly
> wouldn't waste efforts blocking an Amublance by my predator with that
> deck.
Good points. How about an Aching Beauty deck? Anson with 3 Aching
Beauties attempts to bleed. Okay, you block. Burn 3 pool. Change of
Target. Now he calls a vote. You've blocked. Burn 3. Majesty. Now I
want an Ambulance. That'll probably hurt a lot later on, but is it really
worth blocking right now when it'll cost 3 more pool and he'll just do
something else horrible after untapping?
I need to build this deck. :)
Matt Morgan
James Coupe
Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
>On Oct 9, 11:22 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> To me, the best way of thinking about Ambulance is: Do you like Form of
>> Mist? Form of Mist is great. Bleed, tap a blocker, surprise, go again.
>> Now, Ambulance is a weaker disciplineless version - in plain sight, and
>> no stealth. But still pretty darn good, if you think you can survive
>> combat.
>Ambulance is NOT Form of Mist. The major effect of superior Form of
>Mist is S:CE, not "action continies as unblocked".
This simply isn't true. The "action continues as if unblocked" effect
is super, super popular.
I'd commend any good Form of Mist-using Stanislava Dominate/Protean deck
to you, for your education.
>If you have Form of Mist, then you can allow them to block you (as
>long as you're sure that the blocker cannot beat your S:CE), if you
>have Ambulance, you cannot, unless you have other combat defense.
Sure, that seems fine. You put Ambulance into decks that can survive
combat. You don't put it into decks that will get creamed immediately
on entering combat. Bruise bleed gets to bruise AND bleed. Any
deck/clan without a massive delivery mechanism option gets to use damage
prevention as pretend "stealth".
No-one is saying that every deck on the planet must include 6
Ambulances. But Ambulance gives you some cool options, if you survive
combat. So you put it in decks that survive combat that want those
options.
>> On top of that, it has a fringe benefit against the Imbued. Woo.
>Well, this is almost the ONLY benefit from this card. Too little for
>an 1-pool vehicle.
Since this isn't true, your costing is wrong.
James Coupe
D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> writes:
>On Oct 9, 9:14 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>> At maximum, you will tap one minion (or
>> force them to lose a Wake), and you generally don't need it if you
>> really have stealth.
>
>Which is often all you need--if your prey has a single minion untapped
>and you don't want, like, you weenies blocked, someone needs to take
>the hit anyway. You might as well take the hit and then continue in
>the action.
Peter, out of interest, what's your view of it for a combat deck?
Rush target, get blocked, pound vampire, continue action, hit another
vampire. Two for the price of one!
OR
Rush target, don't get blocked, pound the vampire you wanted all along.
Plus Imbued fringe benefit.
Any mileage here?
Peter D Bakija
Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> Ambulance is NOT Form of Mist. No S:CE, no +1 stealth. How do you plan
> to equip Ambulance in your "Tap-n-Bleed Toreador deck"?
By tapping folks. Or by being the Settites, where Ambulance+Majesty=Form
of Mist.
> If you spend those 2-3 slots on allies, you will get some protection
> against rushes. If you spend them on "payload", on bounce, or even on
> stealth - all will be better than Ambulance.
And if you spend those three slots of Giant's Blood, you have a good
chance of drawing Giant's Blood. So what? The point is that the card has
two pretty reasonable effects. It'll probably show up reasonably often.
> It may fail to sweep every game, but is't rather aggressive and very
> difficult to stop. Thanks to Mesu.
So are a lot of decks. I have never said that Mesu is bad. Just that it
isn't particularly overpowered. Where you called it, and I quote, "This
is the most broken card in the entire set. " Which strikes me as
hyperbole, to say the least.
> Bouncing bleed for 1 for 1 blood and 2 cards (bounce card + Wake)
> isn't good enough, unless you're ready to oust yout prey.
Why does it have to be 2 cards? I leave a guy with DOM untapped. You
bleed me for 1. If it is unlikely that you'll be bleeding me for a bunch
and I don't feel it is necessary to save the bounce for a bleed of 5? I
gladly bounce the bleed of 1 to my prey. And then do it again. 'Cause I
have DOM and I'm using Deflection.
> you will have to agree that bounce isn't overpowered.
I will have to agree with no such thing. Is bounce wildly overpowered?
No. Is it probably better than it needs to be? Yes, and always has been.
NArrow Minds makes perfect sense.
> Narrow Minds, as I said several times, helps aggressive bleeders, does
> nothing to the decks without bounce and hurts "peaceful" decks with
> bounce. Its effect isn't really huge, but it's still bad for the game.
Does it help aggressive bleeders? Sure. But as aggressive bleeders are
unlikely to have any impact at all on its prey's blood supply, the extra
blood cost will be a hinderance, but hardly the end of the game for the
prey. How many times do you bounce a bleed from an aggressive bleeder
anyway? 6 or 7 in the whole game? I'm sure the extra 1 blood cost isn't
going to be the cause of your death.
Narrow Minds helps decks without bounce, it that it, in all likelyhood,
hinders your predator and/or prey some. A plus.
> Spending 1 blood + 2 cards (bounce + Wake) for that is NOT a fantastic
> deal, unless you or you prey is really short of pool, and each single
> pool matters.
Each single pool generally matters. And you are trading 1 blood for a 2
pool swing (you save 1, your prey looses 1). If you need to bounce a
bleed of 5 in the future, then yeah, bouncing the bleed of 1 probably
not such a good idea. But if you have a predator who only ever bleeds
for 1? Bounce the bleeds of 1, as it is a vastly better deal than taking
the bleed of 1 and sitting on a deflection.
> I didn't say it's *overpowered*, either.
You said:
"OK, this card is not broken, but it still is much more powerful than
other strength-enhancing cards."
Whether or not "much more powerful" = "overpowered" is certainly up for
debate.
> And it's really strange that nobody seems to get bothered. Permanent
> +2 strength is NOT the same as bunch of TS, as well as permanent +2
> stealth is not the same as bunch of Lost in Crowds.
No one is getting bothered as it simply isn't that big of a deal.
Permanent +2 strength has pretty much the exact same effect as having a
good supply of Torn Signposts. With trade offs ("can run out" vs "other
minions can play them"; "can be blocked" vs "can't be blocked"; "takes
an action" vs "does not take an action"; etc.). Yes, a lot of Torn
Signposts takes up deck space. But so does the infrastructure to get
reliable Preternatural Strength. Mostly a wash.
> Some decks *need* certain cards ASAP. Other cards may be just a good
> addition. You can determine the optimal number of PretStrengths in
> your deck, and, believe me, it's much better to have some dead cards
> later in the game than to fight without the additional strength in the
> midgame. You may simply not live long enough to have dead cards :)
Sure. Or, you could use Torn Signpost and have no dead cards ever, and
have your deck work from A to Z. It is a trade off. And a reasonable one.
> It could be ONE PS. And if you are playing Jalan-Aajav, you will fight
> at least 2-3 times per turn.
How many Fetch cards are you having to get the 1xPS? Really? How many
Drop Point Networks are you playing? So that you get one to make the
deck go? And what happens when it gets Suddened or the single PS gets
blocked or DIed? You are going to go "Huh. Maybe I should have been
playing with Torn Signposts..."
The card is handy. It is hardly game breaking.
> Also, I don't think that having Black Hand, 7 cards in my ash-heap and
> MPA can be called "infrastructure". I will get this automatically in
> the Black Hand deck.
You need the deck to have Black Hand (which removes most deck
possibilities in the game from the equation). You need to draw a BH
vampire. You need to draw a Drop Point network. You need to have played
enough cards to be able to play the DPN *without* having the +2 strength.
These are not minimal requirements. Do you actually *play* this game, or
just imagine hypothetical situations?
> Irrelevant to what? I was saying that with the cards like PretStrength
> (and, probably, Street Cred) the game balance was completely changed.
You can say that about *any* card that provides a new ability. So what?
> Potence became much, much stronger, and I'm not sure that it's good.
Dude. I assure you. I play a lot more combat decks than you likely do.
And more often. Potence did not become "much" stronger. Really. Is
Preturnatural Strength good? Sure. It'll be useful in a bunch of decks.
It'll see play. It'll kill folks sometimes. You are still, however,
going to be better off just using Dominate,.
> Currently Potence is much stronger than it was *EVER*.
I'm crying right now. From the laughter.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man
Blooded Sand
> In article <1192116078.521996.278...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > Currently Potence is much stronger than it was *EVER*.
>
> I'm crying right now. From the laughter.
>
> Peter D Bakija
> p...@lightlink.comhttp://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
>
> "Find hungry samurai."
> -The Old Man
Dude, c'mon, Street cred rocks! Gimme kuckle! :)
Peter D Bakija
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> Peter, out of interest, what's your view of it for a combat deck?
>
> Rush target, get blocked, pound vampire, continue action, hit another
> vampire. Two for the price of one!
> OR
> Rush target, don't get blocked, pound the vampire you wanted all along.
>
> Plus Imbued fringe benefit.
>
> Any mileage here?
Yeah, I'm actually thinking it is probably a pretty good idea. It gives
you the opportunity to get two rushes for the price of 1 (at the cost of
the Ambulance) and lets you blow up the Imbued without the unfortunate
Conviction abuse.
I suspect what will happen, in practice, is that when facing the Imbued,
they'll block you, get pounded, block you again, burn the Ambulance and
get pounded again, but kill your Ambulance.
But in the long run, it might be worth trying anyway.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
witness1
> In article <l$sGlTF0hoDHF...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>,
> James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Peter, out of interest, what's your view of it for a combat deck?
>
> > Rush target, get blocked, pound vampire, continue action, hit another
> > vampire. Two for the price of one!
> > OR
> > Rush target, don't get blocked, pound the vampire you wanted all along.
>
> > Plus Imbued fringe benefit.
>
> > Any mileage here?
>
> Yeah, I'm actually thinking it is probably a pretty good idea. It gives
> you the opportunity to get two rushes for the price of 1 (at the cost of
> the Ambulance) and lets you blow up the Imbued without the unfortunate
> Conviction abuse.
>
> I suspect what will happen, in practice, is that when facing the Imbued,
> they'll block you, get pounded, block you again, burn the Ambulance and
> get pounded again, but kill your Ambulance.
Or block you getting the Ambulance. (Which makes it at as good as a
rush card. Maybe better.)
> But in the long run, it might be worth trying anyway.
I suspect it will be pretty good in a lot of decks.
witness1
J
> meant that most of Animalism cards won't be much effective at
> inferior: Carrion Crows just for 1, Aid from Bats without press, and
> so on. In Potence weenie, even inferior Potence is enough to use Lids/
> Gates/Increased Strength. You can use discipline cards, but a combat
> deck cannot have a lot of masters.
I doubt that's what you meant - by your words you implied that because
Dog Pack is Gangrel not animalism, that it couldn't be used in an
animalism combat deck. And regardless, these are the vampires in the
game with ANI at 5 or less capacity.
G1 - Bear Paw (5)
G2 - Nigel the Shunned, Devin Bisley, Calebros, The Martyr (5)
G3 - Lord Ashton (5), Bobby Lemon(4)
G4 - Yuri Kerezenski, Fish, Effie Lowery, Petra, Celeste Lamontagne
(5), Stick (3)
So it is obvious that you are also playing ani vamps and giving them
skill cards. Because realistically speaking, a 5 cap is a midcap, not
a weenie. As to how ani works, well it can still do ok. The ani guys
are the ones who go and get equipment etc until they have ANI, and the
ANI ones are the guys doing the beat down.
James Coupe
<gra...@hotmail.com> writes:
<snip - 5 cap ANI vampires in a weenie Animalism deck>
>So it is obvious that you are also playing ani vamps and giving them
>skill cards. Because realistically speaking, a 5 cap is a midcap, not
>a weenie. As to how ani works, well it can still do ok. The ani guys
>are the ones who go and get equipment etc until they have ANI, and the
>ANI ones are the guys doing the beat down.
You can also do a bit of this the other way around, if you want. The 5
cap Pack Alphas an Owl Companion, plays Aid from Bats, presses to the
next round, Pack Alphas something else out, and so on, the bigger
vampire having a bit more blood to do this.
You can then Heidelberg the retainers around, having employed them at
superior.
James Coupe
<ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes:
>You can also do a bit of this the other way around, if you want. The 5
>cap Pack Alphas an Owl Companion, plays Aid from Bats, presses to the
>next round, Pack Alphas something else out, and so on, the bigger
>vampire having a bit more blood to do this.
>
>You can then Heidelberg the retainers around, having employed them at
>superior.
This was contingent on a sentence I thought but didn't write:
"You mostly play Animalism weenies, as before, but include a small
number of the 4/5 caps with ANI - perhaps three or four of them."
Ector
> On Oct 11, 9:46 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > Ambulance is NOT Form of Mist. The major effect of superior Form of
> > Mist is S:CE, not "action continies as unblocked".
>
> You can call that the "major effect" if you want, but there are whole
> decks (that are very successful, I might add) that specifically
> revolve around Form of Mist's "continue the action as if
> unblocked" (as otherwise, you'd use the free Earth Meld instead).
> Being able to continue an action as if unblocked after being blocked?
> Very useful ability.
the additional +1 stealth it would be much less useful. You declare an
action, they Wake and block, you play S:CE and continue - they simply
block again with the same vamp, unless you add stealth.
Form of Mist is so good because it provides all three effects: S:CE,
continues action and +1 stealth. Even without stealth it would be much
less popular, and without S:CE it would be crap. As well as Ambulance.
> > If you have Form of Mist, then you can allow them to block you (as
> > long as you're sure that the blocker cannot beat your S:CE), if you
> > have Ambulance, you cannot, unless you have other combat defense. If
> > Ambulance provided S:CE, it would be a great card.
>
> Have some vision. Ambulance turns Majesty into Form of Mist--go get
> blocked, play Majesty, untap, use Ambulance to continue as if
> unblocked, if they try and block again, play some stealth. You succeed
> in your action (bleeding for 5?), tap a potential blocker for your
> other minions, and end the action untapped. Sounds like a good plan to
> me. What? What is that you say? You need stealth? That is crazy talk!
> No one has Presence *and* Obfuscate...
So what do you plan to get for all your efforts? Tapped one minion (or
forced him to waste a Wake) and played Majesty to untap? How
brilliant! Well worth playing a 1-pool vehicle in a S&B deck. How many
times do you need to repeat this combo to repay for the Ambulance
cost? At least 2-3 times, IMHO. On the next turn, somebody will rush
your vamp with Ambulance and torporise him because you wasted your
Majesty on stupid tricks :) Or do you suggest adding extra Majesties
for the trick? Please remember that S&B decks must have a lot of
stealth and bleed, and they have very little space for something else.
Looks like you've ignored my comparison to Learjet. This wasn't very
wise of you. Learjet is far superior to Ambulance in EVERY deck where
you can plan using Ambulance, since it cures various hand jams and
greatly enhances quality of your hand. In stealth decks it will
provide you stealth or let you get rid of extra stealth. In rush decks
it will provide you all cards you need to torporise and let you cycle
out that 4 masters that are killing you. And it cannot be burned so
easily. But still, Learjet is not super-popular, since 1 pool and an
action is a lot. Ambulance cannot even hope to compete with Learjet.
Yours,
Ector
Blooded Sand
> Yes, the ability to continue the action is very useful. But without
> the additional +1 stealth it would be much less useful. You declare an
> action, they Wake and block, you play S:CE and continue - they simply
> block again with the same vamp, unless you add stealth.
> Form of Mist is so good because it provides all three effects: S:CE,
> continues action and +1 stealth. Even without stealth it would be much
> less popular, and without S:CE it would be crap. As well as Ambulance.
Oh, I don't know. As has been pointed out, Rush decks, with Monster,
LOVE this card. Rush your star, you block. Toast blocker, untap via
monster, continue action untapped. You block again. Oh dear, that
costs me a pool vehicle. Damn. Toast second blocker. My untapped
rusher now takes a different rush action and stomps your third minion
into a mud puddle. Hmmm, lemme see. Most Rush decks pack Tension in
the ranks. So I just lost 1 pool, and you lost 3? and 3 minions? Well,
yes, obviously, that's utter crap.
> So what do you plan to get for all your efforts? Tapped one minion (or
> forced him to waste a Wake) and played Majesty to untap? How
> brilliant!
Quite correct. It is brilliant. Settite takes action Revelation of
ecstasy. You block. Okay, I play Venenation. Majesty, continue action.
You attempt another block. I play Faceless night and more stealth
(being settite I have access to a little bit of stealth), so tapping a
second minion, the action succeeds, you tap the third minion and gain
a second corruption counter.
My now untapped minion now bleeds with Public trust, playing
revelation of desire to bleed for 7. My other minion has not acted
yet, and you have three tapped minions you say? How interesting....
> Well worth playing a 1-pool vehicle in a S&B deck. How many
> times do you need to repeat this combo to repay for the Ambulance
> cost?
Oooh, just tapped 3 of my preys minions with one action, and then bled
for 7? Think I mihgt need to do that another, oh, 2 times for it to
pay off.....
> At least 2-3 times, IMHO. On the next turn, somebody will rush
> your vamp with Ambulance and torporise him because you wasted your
> Majesty on stupid tricks :) Or do you suggest adding extra Majesties
> for the trick?
Nope, I am going to play 1 majesty in my Settite deck. Cos majesty is
so weak...
> Please remember that S&B decks must have a lot of
> stealth and bleed, and they have very little space for something else.
Yup, no space for votes, like in Settite sneak vote bleed decks.
True....
> Looks like you've ignored my comparison to Learjet. This wasn't very
> wise of you. Learjet is far superior to Ambulance in EVERY deck where
> you can plan using Ambulance, since it cures various hand jams and
> greatly enhances quality of your hand.
By making me throw away cards that I could be using on a second
action, which I will get with Ambulance.
> In stealth decks it will provide you stealth or let you get rid of extra stealth. In rush decks
> it will provide you all cards you need to torporise and let you cycle
> out that 4 masters that are killing you. And it cannot be burned so
> easily.
If your ambulance can be burned easily, its because you wanted it
burnt for some reason.
> But still, Learjet is not super-popular, since 1 pool and an
> action is a lot. Ambulance cannot even hope to compete with Learjet.
Yup, its in a different class altogether
>
> Yours,
> Ector
Sheesh dude, take off the blinkers, look at the options it makes
available.
Peter D Bakija
> Yes, the ability to continue the action is very useful. But without
> the additional +1 stealth it would be much less useful.
So you give it additional stealth?
> You declare an
> action, they Wake and block, you play S:CE and continue - they simply
> block again with the same vamp, unless you add stealth.
Or you killed them in the drive by...
> Form of Mist is so good because it provides all three effects: S:CE,
> continues action and +1 stealth. Even without stealth it would be much
> less popular, and without S:CE it would be crap. As well as Ambulance.
The Ravnos seem to do pretty well with Mirror Image (? is that the
right one?)
> So what do you plan to get for all your efforts? Tapped one minion (or
> forced him to waste a Wake) and played Majesty to untap? How
> brilliant! Well worth playing a 1-pool vehicle in a S&B deck.
Dude. Are you paying attention? I come to bleed you. You block. I play
no stealth. You block me. I majesty and untap. I tap Ambulance to keep
coming. You try and block again. I play stealth. I get through and
bleed you. You have been bled, had a minion tapped, and I'm untapped
ready to act again. Seems reasonable to me.
> How many times do you need to repeat this combo to repay for the Ambulance
> cost?
I play Social Charm once?
-Peter
Ector
> Yes, you're right, bouncing a bleed for one at the cost of 2 cards and
> a blood is overpriced, which is why most bounce decks ignore the
> bleeds for one and bounce the higher bleeds.
> Also, most decks
> featuring bounce tend to keep a minion untaped to play their
> deflections, so it really only one card and a blood for the most part.
If you keep a minion untapped, then you lose an action instead of
Wake. It may be not that significant, but it still cannot be
neglected.
> As for "not every predator bleeds you" umm, bleed is the basic oust
> strategy of every deck. Sure you may vote your way to victory, but
> that requires titles, bigger minions etc and even then I'll bet that
> amongst all those votes is a few governs/ aires/ whatever in the deck
> for a lunge as needed.
Since you agreed that bouncing bleeds for 1 isn't very attractive, you
may add various swarm decks to your list of "unbouncible" predators.
Bounce will be almost useless against Night Moves decks as well. Rush
decks with some bleed will generally torporize all vampires able to
bounce prior to the bleeding, or just kill you with Fame/Tension/
Dragonbound. Setites can bleed you for 1 with all their Waters and
then add Enticement. Finally, bounce becomes completely useless when
only two players left.
Really, bounce isn't a way to victory, it's just a way to use your
enemies' actions against your enemies (if they allow you to do so).
And it wasn't overpowered even a single bit.
> As for narrow minds I can see where you are coming from in regards to
> "helping" aggressive bleeders but the connection is so tenuous as to
> be almost negligable. In an earlier post you said that the
> powerbleeder's have access to bounce, sure they do, but your 3-5 cap
> weenie DOM guys won't be bleeding so hard or as often when they have
> to pay for both their bleed mods and the ability to bounce as well.
OK, let's assiume that they will replace their Conditionings to
Threats. So what? They can bleed for 5 with Govern + Threats just for
1 blood, and almost all stealth is free. They can even add some
Foreshadowing Destructions to kill people easier. Obviously, they will
have enough blood to oust the first 1-2 preys despite the Narrow
Minds, and after that they will just recruit new vampires.
> Remember, your current discussion is "bounce is overpriced in terms of
> blood and cards" Don't turn around and say the weenie powerbleeder can
> absorb the cost any better than any other deck.
What? My current discussion is "Narrow Minds makes powerbleed decks
stronger, while making peaceful decks with bounce weaker, and that's
bad for the game". I do like "weird" combo-decks that need some time
to assemble the combo, and Narrow Minds makes these decks much worse -
as though they were too powerful before, and bleed decks became more
powerful, as though they weren't powerful enough.
Besides that, many powerbleeding decks can really absorb the cost
better than most other decks, since almost all their cards cost no
blood.
> Finally, let me clear something up for you. Bounce is defense as much
> as a jedi with a lightsabre deflecting blaster bolts back to his
> enemies. There is no such thing as "peaceful" bounce. Bounce is used
> to turn your predators attacks on you to your prey (mostly). You force
> both your predator and bounce victim to expend resources that could be
> used on ousting you or preventing you from playing your game.
> <skipped a lot of good examples>
If jedi's lightsabre could be used ONLY to bounce bolts back as bleed
bounce, then jedi would stand on their knees and ask their enemies to
fire at them :)
Yes, bounce is defense combined with offense, but you still need
somebody to bleed you.
>
> > Spending 1 blood + 2 cards (bounce + Wake) for that is NOT a fantastic
> > deal, unless you or you prey is really short of pool, and each single
> > pool matters.
>
> Every point of pool matters if you fail to see this, god help you
> cause V:tes players will just amaranth your ass :)
Surely it matters. I just said that bouncing bleed for 1 is not
"fantastic". Actually, you were agree with this few lines above.
>
> > Firstly, bleeders still have all previous anti-bounce cards. If you
> > played Lost In Translation for 3 blood and tapped your large vampire
> > to bounce a bleed of 5 at +2 stealth only to see Spying Mission, your
> > predator can consider that a successful bleeding.
>
> So setting up your prey to be ousted is a good thing?? How novel
What did you want to say with this?
> > Secondly, bleed bounce is most effective only if you really threat to
> > oust your prey before your predator ousts you. Narrow Minds greatly
> > reduces this threat: even if you bounce, you will lose a lot of blood
> > and you'd be forced to lose some time for hunting. That will greatly
> > increase chances of your predator and decrease yours.
>
> Ho hum, refer to my previous comments about this. Seriously dude, you
> seem to argue a point in one "instance" and the argue the reverse in
> the next. Bleed bounce is effective, period. It allows you to attack
> your prey without needing to put your own minions in harms way.
Bleed bounce is effective in turning your predator against your prey.
The combined cost of bounce, including the opportunity cost, makes it
really effective only when somebody bleeds you for 3+. Thus, bounce
helped to keep powerbleeders at bay. Now, with all these cards that
hose bounce (Narrow Minds, False Resonance, etc. etc.) keeping
bleeders at bay is much more difficult.
> > > > Oh yes, I see. Hurting everyone who isn't you is *good*, even if you
> > > > hurt your grandprey, who becomes unable to bounce heavy bleeds of your
> > > > prey and gets ousted.
>
> Yes, Hurting everyone who isn't you is good
What a stupid idea. Go play an Imbued deck full of Gehenna cards
(especially Veil of Darkness and Slow Withering). But don't ask me
"why the whole table is killing me?" :)
> > > Your grandprey can still bounce bleeds. It just costs more.
>
> > See above. "Costs more" means slowing him, and if he's slowed, his
> > bounce becomes much less effective, up to the point where his bounce
> > starts to help his predator in ousting his next prey.
>
> Oh no!! I have to make my deck deal with the failings of others??
> Excuse me but fuck that. if my GP is getting screwed by narrow minds,
> then he deserves it.
What? This is truly a sign of Narrow Mind :) Letting your prey to kill
your grandprey is bad for you, so preventing this is very desirable.
Good players like to play the decks that can control the whole table
somehow - even in the form of "trading intercept" from KRCG News
Radio. Hitting the whole table with something like Antediluvian
Awakening is good only when you are completely sure that it will
benefit you, i.e. harm your enemies more than you and your allies.
> > > > False. They pay 1 blood for their bounce and tap their vampire or lose
> > > > a Wake. So they win nothing on bouncing 1, unless it's crucial for
> > > > their prey.
>
> > > They trade 1 blood for saving a pool and making their prey lose a pool
> > > (or block, opening up the next action for you). This is a good trade.
> > > If you are being bled for more, all the better.
So, who's telling the self-contradictory statements? Look at the
beginning of your post.
> > > > Bounce is DEFENSE. No one is *relying* on it:
>
> No, it isn't
OK, it's defense + offense. But still, nobody can pack 16 bounce cards
and hope that his predator will make the whole job for him. This will
simply not work. You pack bounce corresponding to the anticipated
level of bleed.
>
> If no one bled for more than 2 in my metagame I'd be a happy guy. It's
> not going to happen however.
Never say never. The next set may bring some uber-effective anti-
bleeding cards that we will be using instead of bounce, and heavy
bleeds may completely disappear.
> As far as working for "working for ANY of
> my predators actions" I invite you to meet weenie POT/ DOM, I hope you
> have enough prevent or S:CE to survive it. Oh, and be able to do what
> your deck does as well from torpor.
I said that intercept cards are working for ANY of my predator's
actions. Even if my predator is POT/DOM weenie (BTW, I don't think
that it will be really "weenie"), cards like Quicken Sight, Spirit's
Touch, .44 Magnum and Concealed Weapon are going to be quite effective
against it.
Yours,
Ector
Peter D Bakija
> the additional +1 stealth it would be much less useful.
So you give it additional stealth?
> You declare an
> action, they Wake and block, you play S:CE and continue - they simply
> block again with the same vamp, unless you add stealth.
Or you killed them in the drive by...
> Form of Mist is so good because it provides all three effects: S:CE,
> continues action and +1 stealth. Even without stealth it would be much
> less popular, and without S:CE it would be crap. As well as Ambulance.
The Ravnos seem to do pretty well with Mirror Image (? is that the
right one?)
> So what do you plan to get for all your efforts? Tapped one minion (or
> forced him to waste a Wake) and played Majesty to untap? How
> brilliant! Well worth playing a 1-pool vehicle in a S&B deck.
Dude. Are you paying attention? I come to bleed you. You block. I play
no stealth. You block me. I majesty and untap. I tap Ambulance to keep
coming. You try and block again. I play stealth. I get through and
bleed you. You have been bled, had a minion tapped, and I'm untapped
ready to act again. Seems reasonable to me.
> How many times do you need to repeat this combo to repay for the Ambulance
> cost?
I play Social Charm once?
-Peter
XZealot
Creation of circumstances where your actions are successful is better
than drawing a card, period.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
John P.
Gotta agree. All Lear Jet usually does for me is assist me in decking
myself.
Maybe once in a while helps me cycle into a card I need. As I dislike
decking myself I don't use it much. Ambulence I will use.
John P.
Scared of planes
J
> > than drawing a card, period.
>
> Gotta agree. All Lear Jet usually does for me is assist me in decking
> myself.
> Maybe once in a while helps me cycle into a card I need. As I dislike
> decking myself I don't use it much. Ambulence I will use.
I find Learjet great for certain decks, very average for others. It's
awesome if you're playing a tricky combination, or if you really want
that one copy of a unique card, but pack 6+ copies of it to get it.
Of my 37 decks at the moment, I've got 2 decks with Learjets, and in
those decks it is invaluable. When I get some Ambulances, I will have
more than 2 decks with it, becuase it can work in just about any deck.
Kevin Walsh
Ector wrote:
> You could provide a better example with rushing their most valuable
> minion instead of bleeding. Combat-heavy decks rarely have high bleed,
> so your prey can just avoid blocking a vampire with Ambulance. And if
> you increase bleed, they can bounce.
Except for EuroBrujah and other pot/dom decks, plus Ahrimane (!Brujah,
Guruhi, etc) decks with Heart of the City.
Kevin Walsh
J
Exactly, I know that my combat decks always try to include a bit of
bleed in them, permanent as well as transient. Because basing the
hell out of someone isn't going to always get you a VP, but reducing
their pool to 0 will.
BobbyDoc
> 1. INTRODUCTION
>
> I didn't want to write a new issue of my newsletter. I have no mood,
> and no time. I'm divorcing with my wife, and trying to leave VTES at
> all, after I failed to convince my players to replace the stupid LotN
> prerelease format "recommended" by WW to the normal booster draft.
> Looks like nobody considers this game a serious sport, so is there any
> reason to waste my time for "just a recreation"? If I need a
> recreation, I can play some computer game, or read a book.
First. Sorry about your marriage. Always tough when that happens.
Your passion for the game will be missed.
Take some time off and after a while you may think VtES is as good
recreation as any book.
Many of your comments of the cards I agree with. Not these though:
> Ambulance
> ----------
> "If this action is blocked again, burn this card". This is a death
> sentence for a 1-pool equipment. Everybody knows that actions that
> "continue as unblocked" are blocked again quite often. If the blocking
> vampire was Waked, he even doesn't need another Wake to block again!
I actually think this is ok. Not always you get blocked with a wake.
Also you can burn allies. How bad is that ?
> Kpist m/45
> -----------
> While AK-47 is very cornercase, but playable in the decks without
> Celerity that have some way to get it cheaper, this one is completely
> useless. Oh yes, Rounds, I know, but they are far less flexible than
> Pursuits, Blurs and others. Without Rounds you will get the same
> damage as from .44 Magnum, but for 3 pool, and this one cannot be
> Concealed.
Not sure. Obf weenies with these and rounds+magazines and disguised
weapons. That will save card slots used for quite many cards in a
weenie cel gun deck.
Cards that can be other interesting stuff for whatever theme.
But yeah.... I have to have enough of Magazines (RARE) and in the end
weenie cel gun may still be better. Field test needed.
> Open Dossier
> -------------
> Who plays card that are playable only by contract targets and only
> against the killers?
You can be tapped and may still block. That is nice in my book. Haqims
Law (yeah, kinda crappy card, but still) may make many be able to
block the poor chum.
Cost of one is bad though. I will put in 1-2 in next contract deck
when I build one to see how it works.
> Resume the Coil
> ----------------
> Who is planning to get into torpor so othen that he needs cards to
> reduce the resque cost? Vampires that resque cheaper are different
> matter, but wasting cards for that? No way.
There are some cards that work from torpor. Like Regeneration. Right
now this card is not so good, yes, but in the future, if this field is
more explored this may turn out good. It's little more versatile than
Rapid Healing.
> Trophy: Library
> ----------------
> Getting a Trophy is rather difficult, so nobody is going to make
> somebody Red List and then burn him just for +2 hand size. AFAIK,
> Elder Library is not uber-popular.
I included Elder Library in a deck a while ago and noticed I always
loved getting it. So now I have it in many more decks and also other
similar cards.
I've never created a Trophy deck, but this will definatly be included
if I do. Combat decks love bigger handsize.
> Trophy: Revered
> ----------------
> +2 bleed isn't a good reward for burning a Red List. You may get +1
> from Camera Phone just for an action.
You cannot enhance the bleed (or play action bleeds) with camera
phone. This do not need equipment action either.
This Trophy will be good if you have a multi action deck.
> Burden the Mind
> -----------------
> This card enforces the horrible weenies, and we all know that they
> must be eliminated, not enforced. Why this is worse than Pentex
> Subversion? Because only THAT vampire can burn the card; so, actually
> it means "no Wakes for one turn and waste an action on the next turn".
> It's also cheaper and not unique, so a weenie with Parhthenon can play
> *two* Burdens in one turn and completely lock prey's Wakes.
> I don't think that !Malks need this card. We play a fair game of
> "stealth against intercept", not "our numbers will overcome your
> Wakes".
Yes this is good. But I'm not sure it is too good. For me it's worse
with Pentex since I (and many others) often use a star vamp for block
decks. Weenie auspex will laugh at this card.
> Camera Phone
> -------------
> Permanent +1 bleed for free? Really??? Again, great thanks from the
> disciplineless weenies. They don't need 20+ Computer Hackings anymore,
> 10-15 Camera Phones will replace them more than adequately, especially
> in non-combat metagames, and leave more space for dodges and other
> tricks.
> Anti-Malks don't need this card - it doesn't combine with Kindred
> Spirits.
I think this is fine. You must equip with it and weenie bleed usually
do not wanna waste tempo for equip.
In my weenie bleed decks I noticed I never recruited Tasha Morgan +
J.S Simmons, so I removed them.
> False Resonance
> -----------------
> Do we really need to help S&B to cancel bounce? This card hoses
> Telepathic Misdirection, and that's awful. Besides, how many playable
> reactions on Dementation do you know? One: Shattered Mirror. Is there
> any point in printing the good card (not broken by any means) and
> printing its hoser in the next set? Thanks to the +1 stealth at
> superior, this card is going to be popular.
> Anti-Malks hate this card with a passion, as it nullifies the only
> bounce card we have and prevents us from playing Shattered Mirror
> (why?)
Personally I think it's good with some cards that cancel bounce,
remember that this is chimestry, so it will not have that big impact.
> Fantasy World
> --------------
> Do we really need another "star hoser"? I don't think so. With this
> card, Ravnos can completely shut down any minion for his own turn,
> burn one blood or life from him and leave him tapped for the next turn
> - all for 2 blood. Not a Sensory Deprivation, for sure, but "cannot
> play cards and cast votes" is much more harsh than just "doesn't untap
> as normal". This will hit even a Baali! Besides, Fantasy World is
> cheaper and has +1 stealth at superior.
Sense dep is much worse. So this this card is not a problem for me.
> Mesu Bedshet
> -------------
> This is the most broken card in the entire set.
> Getting a new vampire costs 4 transfers + 1 pool. If it's younger, you
> get additional +2 transfers and +2 pool, so you gain +6 transfers and
> +3 pool total just for an action that costs 1 blood. That's too good,
> especially transfer-wise. Setites are going to spread like rats.
> Let's compare this to the existing cards. Yes, there are actions like
> Kindred Intelligence and Clotho's Gift that give you another vampire,
> but you get only +4 transfers and +1 pool (a cost of getting the
> additional vampire in "normal" way). And there are Governs/Founders of
> the Ebony Kingdom that provide up to +4 transfers and +4 pool, but you
> need to have a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region - so if you
> want to spread a horde, you will have to pay 4 transfers and 1 pool
> for each new vamp, and this effectively neutralizes the threat of over-
> spreading. How often did you paid for another vamp just to be able to
> get pool from your Governs?
> With Mesu Bedshet, you have absolutely no problems in getting a huge
> horde. Having +6 transfers for a single action is so insane that
> Information Highway is nothing compared to this! Two extra transfers
> per turn? I can have +12 or even more! Looks like the designers don't
> realize the value of "transfers" at all, as long as they are printing
> such cards. Players are getting *four* transfers per turn to ensure
> more-or-less equal speed of influencing vampires. If some player can
> get *six* transfers just in one action, the balance is completely
> broken. Moreover, if you just need pool, Metsu Bedshet never fails to
> provide you 2 pool, as long as you have Setites in your crypt, and the
> acting vampire is the eldest (use a Discipline card - Setites often
> use Obfuscate cards for their Waters anyway).
> Now please think about Dreams of the Sphinx that will provide you even
> more free pool and transfers, The Eternals of Sirius, if you have some
> fatties, and superior Public Trust that also moves blood to your
> uncontrolled region. You can influence vampires so quickly that
> rushers won't have enough actions to torporize them!
It sure is very good. I'm not sure this is broken though.
> Omael Kuman
> ------------
> Can serve as a panacea against a close-range Rush, for instance.
> Losing 1 blood is much better than losing
> a vampire.
I'm not sure if I like that anyone can be Cailean.
> Street Cred
> -----------
> Pool gain for combat achievements!!! Finally. At last...
At first glance it looked good, but cost 1 and younger makes me wonder
if I really want to use this.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 6. DECK OF THE MONTH
>
Have to say this was an enormously COOL deck!
BobbyDoc