Pander Problems
Brian
Rex, the Necronomist has acquired control of the Ankara Citadel. He
also has Clan Impersonated a Tzimisce while the Path of Metamorphosis
is in play and is facing Bear Paw in combat. Bear Paw has played
Terror Frenzy at superior. Rex wants to go to range with Chiropteran
Marauder and then strike with Breath of the Dragon, but he has really
no idea how much blood that costs.
Seems to me Rex can apply these effects in any order his controller
wishes, if not then probably add/subtract and then do the Citadel
thing. Can Rex choose, for Breath, to:
Increase cost with innate ability to 2,
Increase cost with Terror Frenzy to 3,
Halve cost with Ankara Citadel to 1,
Decrease cost with Path to 0?
Can Rex choose, for Chiropteran Marauder, to:
Decrease cost with Path (moot, remains 0),
Halve cost with Ankara Citadel to 0,
Increase cost with innate ability to 1,
Increase cost with Terror Frenzy to 2?
Problem 2:
Does Mitchell, The Headhunter's special increase the rescue action's
blood requirement from 2 to 3, or does it mean that anyone rescuing
him must burn 1 blood for the rescue action, and then the normal 2
blood from any combination of the two?
Further, if Doris McMillon plays Sense Vitality on him, is it a rescue
action? Does she have to burn 1 blood (that rescue action costs 1
more), or may Mitchell burn the 1 (rescue actions allow either
participant to pay)?
Problem 3:
Basil is in combat with a vampire of capacity 2. That vampire
strikes, and before damage resolves, (same place you'd play claws),
its capacity drops. Does the damage drop too? Or is there some point
damage can be changed to aggravated, but not increased?
--Brian
LSJ
>
> Problem 1:
> Rex, the Necronomist has acquired control of the Ankara Citadel. He
> also has Clan Impersonated a Tzimisce while the Path of Metamorphosis
> is in play and is facing Bear Paw in combat. Bear Paw has played
> Terror Frenzy at superior. Rex wants to go to range with Chiropteran
> Marauder and then strike with Breath of the Dragon, but he has really
> no idea how much blood that costs.
>
> Seems to me Rex can apply these effects in any order his controller
> wishes, if not then probably add/subtract and then do the Citadel
> thing. Can Rex choose, for Breath, to:
>
> Increase cost with innate ability to 2,
> Increase cost with Terror Frenzy to 3,
> Halve cost with Ankara Citadel to 1,
> Decrease cost with Path to 0?
>
> Can Rex choose, for Chiropteran Marauder, to:
>
> Decrease cost with Path (moot, remains 0),
> Halve cost with Ankara Citadel to 0,
> Increase cost with innate ability to 1,
> Increase cost with Terror Frenzy to 2?
Some effects change the cost of the card, other change how much blood
one burns.
Rex: combat cards cost an additional blood
AC,T: [Rex] pays half the blood cost
tPoM: [Rex] burns one less blood
TF: [Rex] burns an additional blood
So the cost is increased by one (Rex).
The Chiropteran Maurader's cost is therefore 1.
Breath of the Dragon's cost is 2.
Rex pays half the cost (AC,T) and burns one less (tPoM) and one
additional blood (TF) when doing so.
CM: [1/2] - 1 + 1 = 0 - 1 + 1 = 0
BotD: [2/2] - 1 + 1 = 1 - 1 + 1 = 1
> Problem 2:
> Does Mitchell, The Headhunter's special increase the rescue action's
> blood requirement from 2 to 3, or does it mean that anyone rescuing
> him must burn 1 blood for the rescue action, and then the normal 2
> blood from any combination of the two?
It increases the cost of the rescue from torpor action (card text).
The cost is normally 2. Increasing it by one would make it 3.
The cost of the rescue can be paid all by Mitchell or all by the rescuer
or any combination. [6.5.3]
> Further, if Doris McMillon plays Sense Vitality on him, is it a rescue
> action? Does she have to burn 1 blood (that rescue action costs 1
Yes (card text).
> more), or may Mitchell burn the 1 (rescue actions allow either
> participant to pay)?
Mitchell may. [6.5.3]
> Problem 3:
> Basil is in combat with a vampire of capacity 2. That vampire
> strikes, and before damage resolves, (same place you'd play claws),
> its capacity drops. Does the damage drop too? Or is there some point
> damage can be changed to aggravated, but not increased?
How does his capacity drop?
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Brian
> one burns.
>
> Rex: combat cards cost an additional blood
> AC,T: [Rex] pays half the blood cost
> tPoM: [Rex] burns one less blood
> TF: [Rex] burns an additional blood
>
> So the cost is increased by one (Rex).
> The Chiropteran Maurader's cost is therefore 1.
> Breath of the Dragon's cost is 2.
>
> Rex pays half the cost (AC,T) and burns one less (tPoM) and one
> additional blood (TF) when doing so.
Then, in a simpler situation, Terror Frenzy vs. Path. Can a Tzimisce
opt to apply the "burns 1 less" before the "burns 1 additional",
resulting in burning 1 blood for a 0-cost card, or must the "burns 1
less" be applied as soon as it would make sense (even checking twice)?
Or perhaps, does the "burns 1 less" make him burn 1 less than 0,
which would only be applied as 0 if not modified by a "burns 1 more"
effect to cancel it?
(Really, this doesn't matter, but I think it gives one a more
comprehensive view of the rules.)
> > Problem 3:
> > Basil is in combat with a vampire of capacity 2. That vampire
> > strikes, and before damage resolves, (same place you'd play claws),
> > its capacity drops. Does the damage drop too? Or is there some point
> > damage can be changed to aggravated, but not increased?
>
> How does his capacity drop?
Hmm. Let's go with:
Basil + Clan Impersonation (Tremere Antitribu) + Infernal Pact
(Mytherceria) vs. Hasina Kesi + Pot discipline card
Basil strikes with Absorb the Mind (sup), Hasina Kesi strikes with
Undead Strength.
Basil's strike resolves, removing Hasina's +1 strength at the same
time damage is applied, right?
Then, when damage prevention comes around, neither opts to prevent
any.
How many blood must Basil burn to avoid torpor?
I would say "4", because damage should be assigned at the same time
Absorb the Mind is slated to resolve, except that I've heard Claws of
the Dead can be played after strike resolution but before damage
prevention to apply the damage as aggravated, which (if true) would
make me lean toward "3".
Perhaps the people who play it that way mean to play Claws after
strikes are chosen/before strike resolution, and not after strike
resolution/before damage resolution?
Also, I left out:
Problem 4:
I bring Jimmy Dunn into play. My prey plays Presence on him, his prey
plays Quietus on him, and my predator plays Obfuscate on him. On my
turn, I make him a Legendary Vampire. (No, this has not really
happened--but it would be cool!) I use him to call Legacy of Pander
and it passes. How many votes does Jimmy have?
Now, assuming votes works like strength or bleed, I would say LoP sets
his "base votes" to 1, and then the +2 is applied; however, I have
never heard of "base votes" as a concept. Obviously LoP followed by
Legendary Vampire grants 3 votes ([votes = 1] followed by [+2 votes] =
3), but in the other order ([+2 votes] followed by [votes = 1]) it
seems like it might reset his votes to 1.
I think I have more Pander Problems, but my friends are waiting for me
to play Jyhad with them right now :)
Thank you for your help
--Brian
LSJ
>
> > Some effects change the cost of the card, other change how much blood
> > one burns.
> >
> > Rex: combat cards cost an additional blood
> > AC,T: [Rex] pays half the blood cost
> > tPoM: [Rex] burns one less blood
> > TF: [Rex] burns an additional blood
> >
> > So the cost is increased by one (Rex).
> > The Chiropteran Maurader's cost is therefore 1.
> > Breath of the Dragon's cost is 2.
> >
> > Rex pays half the cost (AC,T) and burns one less (tPoM) and one
> > additional blood (TF) when doing so.
>
> Then, in a simpler situation, Terror Frenzy vs. Path. Can a Tzimisce
> opt to apply the "burns 1 less" before the "burns 1 additional",
> resulting in burning 1 blood for a 0-cost card, or must the "burns 1
> less" be applied as soon as it would make sense (even checking twice)?
> Or perhaps, does the "burns 1 less" make him burn 1 less than 0,
> which would only be applied as 0 if not modified by a "burns 1 more"
> effect to cancel it?
>
> (Really, this doesn't matter, but I think it gives one a more
> comprehensive view of the rules.)
The third guess is correct.
Burns 1 less followed by burns 1 more is effectively no effect.
The limit of "not less than zero" is an end-process limit, like
the limit on bleed amounts.
> > > Problem 3:
> > > Basil is in combat with a vampire of capacity 2. That vampire
> > > strikes, and before damage resolves, (same place you'd play claws),
> > > its capacity drops. Does the damage drop too? Or is there some point
> > > damage can be changed to aggravated, but not increased?
> >
> > How does his capacity drop?
>
> Hmm. Let's go with:
> Basil + Clan Impersonation (Tremere Antitribu) + Infernal Pact
> (Mytherceria) vs. Hasina Kesi + Pot discipline card
>
> Basil strikes with Absorb the Mind (sup), Hasina Kesi strikes with
> Undead Strength.
> Basil's strike resolves, removing Hasina's +1 strength at the same
> time damage is applied, right?
> Then, when damage prevention comes around, neither opts to prevent
> any.
> How many blood must Basil burn to avoid torpor?
>
> I would say "4", because damage should be assigned at the same time
> Absorb the Mind is slated to resolve, except that I've heard Claws of
> the Dead can be played after strike resolution but before damage
> prevention to apply the damage as aggravated, which (if true) would
> make me lean toward "3".
It isn't true. Claws must be played before the strike resolution step.
The answer is indeed "4".
If AtM had been done at First Strike, however, then it would affect
Hasina's strike.
> Perhaps the people who play it that way mean to play Claws after
> strikes are chosen/before strike resolution, and not after strike
> resolution/before damage resolution?
That would be the correct way.
> Also, I left out:
>
> Problem 4:
> I bring Jimmy Dunn into play. My prey plays Presence on him, his prey
> plays Quietus on him, and my predator plays Obfuscate on him. On my
> turn, I make him a Legendary Vampire. (No, this has not really
> happened--but it would be cool!) I use him to call Legacy of Pander
> and it passes. How many votes does Jimmy have?
3. He still isn't titled, so the LoP applies to him.
> Now, assuming votes works like strength or bleed, I would say LoP sets
> his "base votes" to 1, and then the +2 is applied; however, I have
> never heard of "base votes" as a concept. Obviously LoP followed by
> Legendary Vampire grants 3 votes ([votes = 1] followed by [+2 votes] =
> 3), but in the other order ([+2 votes] followed by [votes = 1]) it
> seems like it might reset his votes to 1.
It works like strength and bleed, yeah.
Curevei
Is there some reason multiplication wouldn't come first?
LSJ
The order is set by the wordings of the card, as explained above.