Question: Flash grenade
matkov
Weapon. Strike: Combat Ends. If the opposing minion is a vampire, he
or she is tapped and does not untap as normal on his or her untap
phase. If the bearer is a vampire and the grenade is used at close
range, the bearer is also tapped and does not untap as normal on his
or her next untap phase. Burn this weapon after use.
If vampire A playes Flash grenade and vampire B playes Earth meld with
untap(majesty, ...), is it tapped after combat?
Does it matter which one is acting minion?
LSJ
Yes. Earth Meld, etc. untap the vampire before ending combat. Then the
Flash Grenade taps him. (Note that, as usual, if a minion strikes with
Flash Grenade and the opposing vampire plays Psyche! or Telepathic
Tracking, the rest of the effect (tapping the vampire and causing him
not to untap) is lost.
> Does it matter which one is acting minion?
No.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Eric Simon
> matkov wrote:
>
> > Flash grenade:
> > Weapon. Strike: Combat Ends. If the opposing minion is a vampire, he
> > or she is tapped and does not untap as normal on his or her untap
> > phase. If the bearer is a vampire and the grenade is used at close
> > range, the bearer is also tapped and does not untap as normal on his
> > or her next untap phase. Burn this weapon after use.
> >
> > If vampire A playes Flash grenade and vampire B playes Earth meld with
> > untap(majesty, ...), is it tapped after combat?
>
> Yes. Earth Meld, etc. untap the vampire before ending combat. Then the
> Flash Grenade taps him. (Note that, as usual, if a minion strikes with
> Flash Grenade and the opposing vampire plays Psyche! or Telepathic
> Tracking, the rest of the effect (tapping the vampire and causing him
> not to untap) is lost.
Is this a clarification of the wording of Flash Grenade (per designer
intent, I assume)? FG, unlike other S:CE cards with effects, does not
have any wording to indicate WHEN its effect takes place. Majesty and
Earth Meld say "before combat ends," while Catatonic Fear says "once
combat ends" and Oubliette says "after combat." FG has none of these
phrases, so it seems to require clarification, since without any of
these phrases it should either happen during declaration or
resolution. Can it be errata'd to "once combat ends"? Or are you
considering the "is tapped" phrasing to be equivalent to that, to
trump all other effects? (Actually I'd prefer it to go the other
direction, because having it beat the Majesty/Earth Meld untap is
massively powerful, and the Chicago playgroup is busily breaking this
card as much as possible.) If there were a hypothetical S:CE card
that stated that the striking minion "is untapped," would that trump
the FG effect? Meld With the Land also does not have a timing phrase.
Does MWtL (inferior) untap the minion who played FG even at close?
What about Mummify, which also has no timing phrase?
Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago
Anarch Newsletter Writer
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<40BC615A...@white-wolf.com>...
>>matkov wrote:
>>>Flash grenade:
>>>Weapon. Strike: Combat Ends. If the opposing minion is a vampire, he
>>>or she is tapped and does not untap as normal on his or her untap
>>>phase. If the bearer is a vampire and the grenade is used at close
>>>range, the bearer is also tapped and does not untap as normal on his
>>>or her next untap phase. Burn this weapon after use.
>>>
>>>If vampire A playes Flash grenade and vampire B playes Earth meld with
>>>untap(majesty, ...), is it tapped after combat?
>>
>>Yes. Earth Meld, etc. untap the vampire before ending combat. Then the
>>Flash Grenade taps him. (Note that, as usual, if a minion strikes with
>>Flash Grenade and the opposing vampire plays Psyche! or Telepathic
>>Tracking, the rest of the effect (tapping the vampire and causing him
>>not to untap) is lost.
>
> Is this a clarification of the wording of Flash Grenade (per designer
> intent, I assume)? FG, unlike other S:CE cards with effects, does not
It is a clarification of the application of [RTR 01-MAY-2002], quoted here:
> Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
> single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
> new combat is started.
together with card text on Flash Grenade, of course, with some dependence
on the "after-combat" default timing of such S:CE+stuff effects, per
[RTR 30-JUN-1997].
> If there were a hypothetical S:CE card
> that stated that the striking minion "is untapped," would that trump
> the FG effect? Meld With the Land also does not have a timing phrase.
[RTR 20-JUN-1997] specifies the "after combat ends" timing window for
that hypothetical effects. Meld With the Land's untap timing was
covered in the same RTR that effected Majesty's timing [RTR 01-MAY-2002].
The untap effect happens before combat ends.
> Does MWtL (inferior) untap the minion who played FG even at close?
Hmm. I guess not, since it doesn't say "ranged".
> What about Mummify, which also has no timing phrase?
Mummify never has any effect, since it is never played. :-)
If it were played, however, the "untap and go to torpor" would
occur after combat ends. (And would be interrupted if someone
played Psyche!)
Chris Arthur
> > What about Mummify, which also has no timing phrase?
>
> Mummify never has any effect, since it is never played. :-)
Sounds like a candidate for a reprint. :)
Chris.
Avid Setite player who has promised his playgroup for years to find a
use for Mummify
salem
are you saying if, say, my vampire, with merely inferior vic,
maneuvers to long with chiropteran marauder, and then plays an
inferior meld with the land, the opposing minion will not be untapped
because meld with the land doesn't say 'ranged'?
does this apply to the self-untapping of earth meld and majesty? (ie:
not untap you if you're at range?)
thanks,
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
"I like to play the field"-LSJ
Derek Ray
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about:
>Mummify never has any effect, since it is never played. :-)
>If it were played, however, the "untap and go to torpor" would
>occur after combat ends. (And would be interrupted if someone
>played Psyche!)
So theoretically, I can give the Baron (or any other THN minion) the
Drum of Zippy Totec, play Ashes to Ashes in any combat where I'm losing
horribly to prevent all damage, gain 2 blood, and go to torpor... and
then play Psyche! to restart combat and interrupt my own effect,
avoiding torpor entirely?
Neat. =)
-- Derek
a host is a host from coast to coast
and no one will talk to a host that's close
unless the host that isn't close
is busy, hung, or dead
LSJ
> hang on.
>
> are you saying if, say, my vampire, with merely inferior vic,
> maneuvers to long with chiropteran marauder, and then plays an
> inferior meld with the land, the opposing minion will not be untapped
> because meld with the land doesn't say 'ranged'?
Yes.
> does this apply to the self-untapping of earth meld and majesty? (ie:
> not untap you if you're at range?)
No. You're never at long range from yourself.
Emmit Svenson
> So theoretically, I can give the Baron (or any other THN minion) the
> Drum of Zippy Totec, play Ashes to Ashes in any combat where I'm losing
> horribly to prevent all damage, gain 2 blood, and go to torpor... and
> then play Psyche! to restart combat and interrupt my own effect,
> avoiding torpor entirely?
Don't I wish. When you use Ashes to Ashes, you go to torpor and combat
ends as a result. It's not combat ends, then go to torpor.
Joshua Duffin
> Eric Simon wrote:
> > Does [Meld with the Land] (inferior) untap the minion who played
> > FG even at close?
>
> Hmm. I guess not, since it doesn't say "ranged".
Presumably (I don't see it addressed directly in this thread) that also
applies to the Flash Grenade "don't untap" effect on the opposing
minion? That is, it only works at short range?
It seems to me that these "side effect of S:CE strikes" were probably
intended to work at either range (since S:CE isn't a range-dependent
strike). Perhaps errata for designer intent would be in order? (The
same argument could also apply to Catatonic Fear, except that CF has
already been reprinted with "only at close" explicit text.)
In support of this argument, for Flash Grenade specifically, examine the
card text:
"Weapon. Strike: Combat Ends. If the opposing minion is a vampire, he
or she is tapped and does not untap as normal on his or her untap phase.
If the bearer is a vampire and the grenade is used at close range, the
bearer is also tapped and does not untap as normal on his or her next
untap phase. Burn this weapon after use."
Observe that the clause "the grenade is used at close range" appears in
the "side effect on the bearer" sentence, rather than immediately after
"Strike: Combat Ends". This implies to me that the "effect on the
opposing vampire" piece of the effect was not intended to be limited to
close range, since if the "close range" qualifier text is going to go on
the card at all, it would logically be placed to cover everything that
would only happen at close range.
Josh
white light, white heat
d. hathorn
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, at 9:00am, LSJ wrote:
> salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > hang on.
> >
> > are you saying if, say, my vampire, with merely inferior vic,
> > maneuvers to long with chiropteran marauder, and then plays an
> > inferior meld with the land, the opposing minion will not be untapped
> > because meld with the land doesn't say 'ranged'?
>
> Yes.
Such a ruling would not appear to be substantiated by the rulebook:
6.4.3 ... Resolve Strike ... Unless the strike is identified as ranged
or does "R" damage (or is a defensive strike such as dodge or combat
ends), it is only effective at close range.
Inferior Meld with the Land fits the above description for a defensive
strike:
Meld with the Land
[vic] Strike: combat ends and untap the opposing minion.
> > does this apply to the self-untapping of earth meld and majesty? (ie:
> > not untap you if you're at range?)
>
> No. You're never at long range from yourself.
??? That's a very "realistic" interpretation, but again, it would appear
not to be substantiated by the rules:
6.4.2 Dtermine Range. Each round of combat is fought at either close
range or long range. Close range is the default for each round.
Based on this wording, "range" is not a characteristic of a minion, it is
a characteristic of a combat round. Range itself, whether long or close,
does not imply any relation between minions, and the concept of range
certainly does not imply any relation between a minion and himself.
LSJ
>
>>>Does [Meld with the Land] (inferior) untap the minion who played
>>>FG even at close?
>>
>>Hmm. I guess not, since it doesn't say "ranged".
>
> Presumably (I don't see it addressed directly in this thread) that also
> applies to the Flash Grenade "don't untap" effect on the opposing
> minion? That is, it only works at short range?
[...]
Good catch. Clearly (as you noted in the snipped part), the grenade
strike should be ranged. Errata to Flash Grenade.
Perhaps Meld with the Land should have such errata, but since its
card text doesn't assume ranged, it probably doesn't rise to the
errata level. I'll put the latter on the RT list for review.
Charles Lechasseur
wrote:
>Joshua Duffin wrote:
>> Presumably (I don't see it addressed directly in this thread) that also
>> applies to the Flash Grenade "don't untap" effect on the opposing
>> minion? That is, it only works at short range?
>
>[...]
>
>Good catch. Clearly (as you noted in the snipped part), the grenade
>strike should be ranged. Errata to Flash Grenade.
>Perhaps Meld with the Land should have such errata, but since its
>card text doesn't assume ranged, it probably doesn't rise to the
>errata level. I'll put the latter on the RT list for review.
I thought all Dodge and Strike: Combat Ends strike were ranged by default.
This is from the rulebook, section 6.4.3 (emphasis mine):
"Unless the strike is identified as ranged or does ³R² damage ***(or is a
defensive strike such as dodge or combat ends)***, it is only effective at
close range."
So a S:CE strike is effective at any range. I always thought it meant that
the other effects provided by such a strike are also be considered
"ranged".
--
charles lechasseur - da...@novideospamtron.ca
Timlagor
> Avid Setite player who has promised his playgroup for years to find a
> use for Mummify
Carver's Meat Packing
Mummify
Blood Doll (*X)
NO DRAGONBOUND :D
You get a use for Faithfull Servant for free :))
Joshua Duffin
"Charles Lechasseur" <da...@novideospamtron.ca> wrote in message
news:danov-04060...@192.168.1.4...
I think the historical interpretation (by the current authorities) has
been that only the S:CE or Dodge strike itself is effective at long
range. Side effects of such strikes *on the opposing minion* are only
effective at close range unless card text says otherwise. Side effects
on the *striking* minion are effective at either range. I'm not sure
this is totally derivable from rules and card text, but it is at least
somewhat reasonable-sounding, to me.
D.Hathorn's argument that the "striking minion is not at long range from
himself/herself" claim isn't backed up by the definition of "range" in
combat also makes sense to me, though. I do think that "side effects of
S:CE strikes" have typically been written assuming that they work at
either range - and it's true that the distinction between "side effects
on the striking minion" and "side effects on the opposing minion" aren't
explicitly laid out in the card texts or the rules, normally.
Josh
see: catatonic fear and riposte originally dealing damage even at long,
but getting cardtext migrations to explicitly remove that possibility
Curevei
>but getting cardtext migrations to explicitly remove that possibility
I don't think Oubliette has gotten text yet that states only at close. It may
be the model for side effects only being at close unless specified otherwise.
Curevei
I always find it odd when people ask me what Phobia does and I say nothing "it
has no text" and they keep asking about it.
LSJ
> In article <40C054A4...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
> wrote:
> >Good catch. Clearly (as you noted in the snipped part), the grenade
> >strike should be ranged. Errata to Flash Grenade.
> >Perhaps Meld with the Land should have such errata, but since its
> >card text doesn't assume ranged, it probably doesn't rise to the
> >errata level. I'll put the latter on the RT list for review.
>
> I thought all Dodge and Strike: Combat Ends strike were ranged by default.
Yes. Those "defensive" effects don't need to be specified as "ranged"
in order to be effective.
> So a S:CE strike is effective at any range. I always thought it meant that
> the other effects provided by such a strike are also be considered
> "ranged".
While I wouldn't've ruled that way if the topic were brought up new
today, I have ruled that way before (on Oubliette). And, since all the
S:CE cards seem to be safe under that ruling currently, it's probably
a fair idea to stick with it.
I'll just try to be more careful with card text for any future cases
that ought to be close ranged.
Falling back on this ruling, the errata proposed above for Flash
Grenade is superfluous and the ruling given previously for Meld with
the Land is now reversed: both strikes are fully effective at long
range (following the precedent set for Oubliette).
Thanks for bearing with me.
David Cherryholmes
> Thanks for bearing with me.
No problem. Just wanted to add that this was a very satisfying insight
into the how's and why's of card rulings. I appreciate your need for
brevity, but I really like hearing the reasoning behind yes/no/correct.
LSJ
> No problem. Just wanted to add that this was a very satisfying insight
> into the how's and why's of card rulings. I appreciate your need for
> brevity, but I really like hearing the reasoning behind yes/no/correct.
We agree twice in one week - surely the end times are upon us. :-)
Brevity is the usual choice when covering old ground.
Exposition is the usual choice when covering new ground.
Timlagor
Catatonic Fear.
Riposte.
Clearly the default is that they happen at any range unless stated
otherwise.
LSJ
Those two received MRP text "corrections" to effect the rulings/errata
levied against them in their original (range-free) forms.
Were I to rule from a clean slate today on Oubliette, it would be in the
same boat. But the opposite ruling on Oubliette already exists, and there
is insufficient reason to overturn it at this time.
So Oubliette's effect on the opposing minion is effective at long range.