Rewording suggestion
Sten During
go to torpor" instead of "when the opposing vampire is going to torpor".
Arguments:
A vampire going to torpor is not ready, so combat may already have ended
and Decapitate could be illegal to play.
Explaining to a player that the Decapitated vampire will not cause the
controller to lose one pool to Tension in the Ranks will take some time.
Sten During
LSJ
>
> I'd like Decapitate to be reworded to "when the opposing vampire should
> go to torpor" instead of "when the opposing vampire is going to torpor".
Those two mean the same thing. No effective change.
> Arguments:
>
> A vampire going to torpor is not ready, so combat may already have ended
> and Decapitate could be illegal to play.
No. Decapitate can be played when the opposing vampire is going to torpor.
> Explaining to a player that the Decapitated vampire will not cause the
> controller to lose one pool to Tension in the Ranks will take some time.
Explaining anything that isn't true will likely take time. :-)
The controller of a Decapitated minion loses a pool to Tension in the Ranks.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Sten During
> Sten During wrote:
>
>>I'd like Decapitate to be reworded to "when the opposing vampire should
>>go to torpor" instead of "when the opposing vampire is going to torpor".
>
>
> Those two mean the same thing. No effective change.
>
>
>>Arguments:
>>
>>A vampire going to torpor is not ready, so combat may already have ended
>>and Decapitate could be illegal to play.
>
>
> No. Decapitate can be played when the opposing vampire is going to torpor.
>
>
>>Explaining to a player that the Decapitated vampire will not cause the
>>controller to lose one pool to Tension in the Ranks will take some time.
>
>
> Explaining anything that isn't true will likely take time. :-)
>
> The controller of a Decapitated minion loses a pool to Tension in the Ranks.
>
???
Er, you made it rather clear in another discussion (WW forum) that the
wording on Minor Boon made it clear that the vampire saved was no longer
ready at the time when Minor Boon could legally be played.
Wording of those two cards are not only similar but identical.
Sten During
LSJ
> Er, you made it rather clear in another discussion (WW forum) that the
> wording on Minor Boon made it clear that the vampire saved was no longer
> ready at the time when Minor Boon could legally be played.
>
> Wording of those two cards are not only similar but identical.
OK.
Depaitate is a combat card.
Minor Boon is played after combat ends.
Sten During
> Sten During wrote:
>
>>Er, you made it rather clear in another discussion (WW forum) that the
>>wording on Minor Boon made it clear that the vampire saved was no longer
>>ready at the time when Minor Boon could legally be played.
>>
>>Wording of those two cards are not only similar but identical.
>
>
> OK.
> Depaitate is a combat card.
> Minor Boon is played after combat ends.
>
I understand what you're saying. I definitely don't understand why it
is so.
Decapitate is a combat-card, so has to be played in combat, at a time
defined by cardtext.
Minor Boon is a Master out of Turn, and has to be played at a time
defined by cardtext.
Cardtext happens to be identical and there is nothing whatsoever in the
rules stating that they should be handled differently. Combatcards have
to be played in combat unless explicitly being legal to play outside of
combat (Psyche for example).
Master out of Turns may be played only once per turn when it is not your
turn, unless worded differently. They are not by definition disallowed
to be played in combat, which Rötschreck is a good example of.
When an event is triggered by something only defined by wording on cards
without support from the rules that said cardtext should be handled
differently dependent of cardtype then I fail to understand why there
is a difference between the timing of two cards.
I'm not saying that I don't understand your ruling - it's crystal clear.
I say that I totally fail to understand why.
Sten During
LSJ
> Decapitate is a combat-card, so has to be played in combat, at a time
> defined by cardtext.
>
> Minor Boon is a Master out of Turn, and has to be played at a time
> defined by cardtext.
> I'm not saying that I don't understand your ruling - it's crystal clear.
> I say that I totally fail to understand why.
For the same reason that Psyche! trumps Hidden Lurker (it's a combat
card).
Snapcase
> Explaining to a player that the Decapitated vampire will not cause the
> controller to lose one pool to Tension in the Ranks will take some time.
Tension in the Ranks
Unique Master
Put this card in play. Whenever a ready minion is *burned or sent to
torpor*, the controller of the minion burns a pool. Any Methuselah can
burn this card by discarding 2 master cards as a master phase action.
According to card text, why wouldn't they lose 1 pool for a vamp
that's decapitated?
-Snapcase
Sten During
> Sten During wrote:
>
>>Decapitate is a combat-card, so has to be played in combat, at a time
>>defined by cardtext.
>>
>>Minor Boon is a Master out of Turn, and has to be played at a time
>>defined by cardtext.
>>[...]
>>I'm not saying that I don't understand your ruling - it's crystal clear.
>>I say that I totally fail to understand why.
>
>
> For the same reason that Psyche! trumps Hidden Lurker (it's a combat
> card).
>
Ok, better, but still not good enough for me to understand fully.
Basically: "is going to torpor" has a timing window. Unless we want to
introduce asyncronous timing windows, something that earlier rulings in
general have tried to avoid, "is going to torpor" should either occur
before "combat ends" or after "combat ends".
Amaranth being worded "should go to torpor" has a timing window that is
easier to see that it is before "combat ends" as the vampire that
"should go to torpor" from a timing point of view is not yet "going to
torpor".
A vampire "going to torpor" is either ready or not. (I happen to prefer
not ready, ie after combat).
Your comparision with Psyche! and Hidden Lurker is still a comparision
with two cards that both are clearly played after "combat ends", so
there is no timing conflict (or rather no room for an asyncronous
handling of an event).
Your ruling for Decapitate versus Minor Boon put "is going to torpor"
on both sides of the rather important indivisible event "combat ends".
I'm not suggesting that Minor Boon should be playable in combat, nor do
I suggest that Decapitate should be illegal to play, or even have to be
played after combat. I just prefer that "is going to torpor" gets a
clearly defined timing window - after "combat ends".
So, "should go to torpor" occurs before "combat ends" which occur before
"is going to torpor", at least as the basis for my original suggestion.
Sten During
Raille
> Amaranth being worded "should go to torpor" has a timing window that is
> easier to see that it is before "combat ends" as the vampire that
> "should go to torpor" from a timing point of view is not yet "going to
> torpor".
>
> A vampire "going to torpor" is either ready or not. (I happen to prefer
> not ready, ie after combat).
>
> Your comparision with Psyche! and Hidden Lurker is still a comparision
> with two cards that both are clearly played after "combat ends", so
> there is no timing conflict (or rather no room for an asyncronous
> handling of an event).
>
> Your ruling for Decapitate versus Minor Boon put "is going to torpor"
> on both sides of the rather important indivisible event "combat ends".
>
> I'm not suggesting that Minor Boon should be playable in combat, nor do
> I suggest that Decapitate should be illegal to play, or even have to be
> played after combat. I just prefer that "is going to torpor" gets a
> clearly defined timing window - after "combat ends".
>
> So, "should go to torpor" occurs before "combat ends" which occur before
> "is going to torpor", at least as the basis for my original suggestion.
Well I had an interesting unfolding of cards all of which, being combat
cards preempt things like a Minor boon.
Take this scenario.
Vampire A sends to torpor Vampire B, plays amaranth. Vamp B plays Ashes
to Ashes and is now going to torpor, But Wait! Vampire B plays Undead
Persistance and the combat continues.
At what point could you play the Minor Boon. The first time the minor
starts on its way to torpor or later after the Combat is Finished,
Since, the Vampire B is on its way to torpor the moment the Undead
Persistance was played.
Raille
Sten During
Not taking actual ruling into consideration, just continuing on my own
track:
Minor Boon could be played after Ashes to Ashes is played - which makes
playing of the other cards illegal. (My suggestion implies that Undead
Persistence must be played at a time before it's legal to play Minor
Boon). That is - Undead Persistence should be playable immediately
before Vamp B is actually on its way to torpor at which time Vamp B is
still ready and combat has not yet ended.
Minor Boon could also be played after three rounds have passed with no
cards played (ie after combat ends).
Again, this is not based on actual ruling but on how I see the sequence
of events.
Sten During
Raille
Well I would say that after A2A is played, your 'still in combat' on
your way to torpor, which allows the Undead Persistance. Minor Boon is
not playable till after combat ends.
That is if i got my rules right.
> Minor Boon could also be played after three rounds have passed with no
> cards played (ie after combat ends).
Yup
> Again, this is not based on actual ruling but on how I see the sequence
> of events.
>
> Sten During
Ditto
Raille
LSJ
> Sten During wrote:
> >> Take this scenario.
> >>
> >> Vampire A sends to torpor Vampire B, plays amaranth. Vamp B plays
> >> Ashes to Ashes and is now going to torpor, But Wait! Vampire B plays
> >> Undead Persistance and the combat continues.
> >>
> >> At what point could you play the Minor Boon. The first time the minor
> >> starts on its way to torpor or later after the Combat is Finished,
> >> Since, the Vampire B is on its way to torpor the moment the Undead
> >> Persistance was played.
> >
> > Not taking actual ruling into consideration, just continuing on my own
> > track:
> >
> > Minor Boon could be played after Ashes to Ashes is played - which makes
> > playing of the other cards illegal. (My suggestion implies that Undead
> > Persistence must be played at a time before it's legal to play Minor
> > Boon). That is - Undead Persistence should be playable immediately
> > before Vamp B is actually on its way to torpor at which time Vamp B is
> > still ready and combat has not yet ended.
>
> your way to torpor, which allows the Undead Persistance. Minor Boon is
> not playable till after combat ends.
>
> That is if i got my rules right.
Correct.
First part: "Ashes Amaranth author:LSJ" on Google.
Second part: "Minor Boon after combat author:LSJ"
> > Minor Boon could also be played after three rounds have passed with no
> > cards played (ie after combat ends).
>
> Yup
Correct again.
Sten During
<SNIP>
>> Not taking actual ruling into consideration, just continuing on my own
>> track:
>>
>> Minor Boon could be played after Ashes to Ashes is played - which makes
>> playing of the other cards illegal. (My suggestion implies that Undead
>> Persistence must be played at a time before it's legal to play Minor
>> Boon). That is - Undead Persistence should be playable immediately
>> before Vamp B is actually on its way to torpor at which time Vamp B is
>> still ready and combat has not yet ended.
>
>
> Well I would say that after A2A is played, your 'still in combat' on
> your way to torpor, which allows the Undead Persistance. Minor Boon is
> not playable till after combat ends.
Yep, but not for the reason stated (remember I'm still following a
specific track)
A vampire being on its way to torpor has already been ruled to be not
ready.
To me that is "is going to torpor" occurs after "should go to torpor"
similar to "the policeman stopped her when she should take a recording"
refers to a woman being stopped just before actually clicking the
taperecorder, whereas "the policeman stops her when she is taking a
recording" refers to a woman being stopped while in the process of
actually recording.
When you play Ashes to Ashes you enter the timeframe where you are about
to go to torpor, matching the demands for Undead Persistence and making
it legal to play before anyone is allowed to play Minor Boon.
When you're actually going to torpor you should no longer be ready, ie
combat should have ended at that time.
This would also have the (pointless) consequence that a vampire taking
26 points of aggravated damage will cause its controller to lose one
pool because the vampire is torporized but not beccause the vampire is
burned in combat as combat has already ended and the vampire is no
longer ready at the time when the vampire fails to burn enough blood
to stay alive.
Sten During
Sten During
They will, and it's obviously designer intent that the vampire should
be burned in the middle of combat.
I'm only ranting about a timingissue caused by card-text "is going to
torpor". I want that to happen either before combat ends or after
combat ends, and not, as it is today, to happen before or after combat
ends dependent on what card is played.
Sten During