Card Question: Toreador Grand Ball

[George Fink]

I have a rules question regarding Toreador Grand Ball

Toreador Grand Ball~
Master~Toreador~1 pool~Put this card in play. Choose two ready
Toreadors you control. The first Toreador cannot be blocked unless he
or she attempts to bleed. The second Toreador does not untap as normal
during the untap phase; tap the second Toreador. This card may be
burned by any minion as a (D) action; Nosferatu get -1 stealth when
attempting that action.~

Some play that you are allowed to play this more than once on a
vamp i.e. Masika, Felicia, and Dieter are out, I can play it on Masika
and Dieter and on Felicia and Dieter and Dieter will not untap and the
other two are unblockable.

Is more than one Grand Ball necessary for this trick?

Note that once played the vampire staying tapped could untap
with rat's warning or somesuch and still be fitting the text.

Also that the vamp may choose not to untap in torpor and still fit the
cards.

Is this right?

--George

[Stuart J. Pieloch]

gf...@avalon.cs.ucdavis.edu (George Fink) wrote:
>I have a rules question regarding Toreador Grand Ball

Toreador Grand Ball
Master (Toreador Required [two in fact]
Cost 1 pool

Put this card in play. Choose two ready Toreadors you control. The
first Toreador cannot be blocked unless he or she attempts to bleed.
The second Toreador does not untap as normal during the untap phase;
tap the second Toreador. This card may be burned by any minion as a
(D) action; Nosferatu get -1 stealth when attempting that action.

>Some play that you are allowed to play this more than once on a

>vamp i.e. Masika, Felicia, and Dieter are out, I can play it on Masika
>and Dieter and on Felicia and Dieter and Dieter will not untap and the
>other two are unblockable.
>Is more than one Grand Ball necessary for this trick?

The real question here is whether more than one vampire can benefit
and be unblockable from ONE minion staying tapped. So with two Tor
Grand Balls, could two toreador remain unblockable while using the
same tapped toreador?

Game case that I ran into on Saturday:
Delilah Easton
Felicia Mostrom
Ramiel Dupre
All controlled by the same Meth.
He plays Toreador Grand Ball on Delilah (TAPPED) and Felicia.
Next turn, he wants to play another Toreador Grand Ball on Delilah
(Again Tapping) and Ramiel.

This meets the card text literally, and might need some further
thought.

>Note that once played the vampire staying tapped could untap
>with rat's warning or somesuch and still be fitting the text.
>Also that the vamp may choose not to untap in torpor and still fit the
>cards.

>Is this right?

And furthermore: if the unblockable minion gets burned,
the Grand Ball still keeps the Tapped minion Tapped. Right?

But if the tapped minion is burned, it cannot choose not to untap
as normal during the untap phase and I would argue that the
Ball would then not allow the second minion to be unblockable.
Other opinions?

Makes for kind of a nasty combo card, eh?
Unblockable equipping with Ivory Bows and Guns for a clan with good
intercept and celerity (so those guns do damage).

>--George
Stu

[Nathan Harada]

Stuart J. Pieloch wrote:
>
> gf...@avalon.cs.ucdavis.edu (George Fink) wrote:
> >I have a rules question regarding Toreador Grand Ball

> Toreador Grand Ball Master (Toreador Required [two in fact) Cost 1 pool

> Put this card in play. Choose two ready Toreadors you control. The
> first Toreador cannot be blocked unless he or she attempts to bleed.
> The second Toreador does not untap as normal during the untap phase;
> tap the second Toreador. This card may be burned by any minion as a
> (D) action; Nosferatu get -1 stealth when attempting that action.
> >Some play that you are allowed to play this more than once on a
> >vamp i.e. Masika, Felicia, and Dieter are out, I can play it on Masika
> >and Dieter and on Felicia and Dieter and Dieter will not untap and the
> >other two are unblockable.

> >Is more than one Grand Ball necessary for this trick? Yes, it should be.

> The real question here is whether more than one vampire can benefit
> and be unblockable from ONE minion staying tapped. So with two Tor
> Grand Balls, could two toreador remain unblockable while using the

> same tapped toreador? As the card reads, nothing prohibits using more than one GB to make
more than one Toreador unblockable, while tapping only one. Toreador Grand
Ball is not a Unique Master, inferring that WotC thought that it wouldn't
unbalance the game too much. Tragic Love Affair, the Toreador clan hoser,
runs along the same lines.
Tragic Love Affair-Master Put this card on a Toreador. Tap this
Toreador. This Toreador does not untap as normal during its Meth's untap
phase. The Toreador's Meth may pay 1 pool during their Master phase to move
this card to another _Toreador_. A Meth can burn this card by giving up the
edge.
This card, as my group plays it, can be placed on the Toreador of the
Meth's choice when moving it around. If more than one is played, they can go
onto the same Toreador. Poor little Dieter usually ends up tapped beyond
belief. (Any Toreador, as above-wait a minute. Toreador are heavily played
in my group. The card doesn't specify whose Toreador it has to be that the
TLA gets transferred to!)
snipped Toreador game case

> >Note that once played the vampire staying tapped could untap with rat's >
>warning or somesuch and still be fitting the text. Also that the vamp may >
>choose not to untap in torpor and still fit the cards.

> > >Is this right? 1. TGB specifies ready minions. 2.I play Toreador political, and I
usually tap a Prince, so I can use 2nd Traditions.

> And furthermore: if the unblockable minion gets burned, the Grand Ball
>still keeps the Tapped minion Tapped. Right? But if the tapped minion is
>burned, it cannot choose not to untap as normal during the untap phase and I
>would argue that the Ball would then not allow the second minion to be

>unblockable. Choose two, I interpreted as you _need two_ ready Toreador or the TGB
doesn't work.

> Unblockable equipping with Ivory Bows and Guns for a clan with good

> intercept and celerity (so those guns do damage). Guns? Ivory bows? Try sending Ancilla Empowerments and KRC through a
normal intercept gauntlet. TGB works wonders with voting, too. And we're
not even mentioning combos with Alexandra-untap another Toreador, and
Masika-untap between Methuselah's turns.

[aramat]

Playing 2 TGB cards, I beleive you cannot chose the same vampire to tap.
My reasoning is that you cannot tap a vampire that is already tapped.

Eric

[Stuart J. Pieloch]

ara...@usa.pipeline.com(aramat) wrote:

Problem being with this is that you can force a tapped vampire to tap
(with misdirection or others) and that TGB only thereafter requires
that the vampire not untap as normal.

Still want to hear from Tom/RTR on this.

[Thomas R Wylie]

The same vampire can serve as the "second Toreador" for multiple Grand Balls,
as you do not have to choose an untapped Toreador to be the host of the ball.

Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

[DOUGDWISE]

I believe Tom already answered this one and said that the same Torreador
could be tapped to allow more than one other Torreador to be unblockable.
Scott or Tom? This has come up again and we Torreadors need your input or
nobody will believe us. :-)

Doug Dunaway

[Thomas R Wylie]

Yes, a given Toreador can host multiple Toreador at the same grand ball
(i.e., the same vampire can be "the second Toreador" for more than one
Grand Ball).