LSJ- Mandatory Actions
XZealot
Can you end your minion phase if you still have mandatory actions to
take?
Specifically, can you untap an empty vampire with Rutor's Hand and end
your minion phase with an untapped vampire who has no blood?
I didn't think you could, but one of the players I am playing against
thinks you can.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
LSJ
> LSJ,
>
> Can you end your minion phase if you still have mandatory actions to
> take?
> Specifically, can you untap an empty vampire with Rutor's Hand and end
> your minion phase with an untapped vampire who has no blood?
No. Not unless the minion is somehow prevented from hunting.
LSJ
Ah, sorry. There's the "after I have finished my actions" part of the minion
phase (the Madness Network step).
So, after you declare that you are finished with your actions (which you cannot
do if you have pending mandatories), then you can use Rutor's to untap the empty
and, having already declared you are finished with your actions, he would be
unable to hunt.
XZealot
How are able to be finished with your actions if you have mandatory
actions to take? How does the existance of a Card that is not in play
allow a minion to avoid mandatory actions?
By that reasoning if I have an empty vampire who is untapped at the
beginning of my minion phase, then all I have to do is declare that I
am done with my actions to avoid the exposure to minions attempting to
block.
Certainly, if you untap during your minion phase with an empty minion,
then you are by default "not done with your actions" as you have
voluntarily queued an action by untapping an empty minion. The
mechanics of the game should force you to hunt at that point in time.
Certainly, you should be disallowed from untapping with an empty
minion after you have declared that "I am done with my actions" as
that is paradoxical on its face.
James Coupe
com>, XZealot <xze...@cox.net> writes:
>How are able to be finished with your actions if you have mandatory
>actions to take?
You don't.
You say "I'm finished with my actions." The Madness Network timing
phase kicks in. It's still your minion phase, however, so you untap the
minion now. However, you've already passed on the right to take more
actions, so you can't take one.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
XZealot
> In message <1616ae9b-9994-4e05-b39d-d6c31a1dd...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.
>
> com>, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> writes:
> >How are able to be finished with your actions if you have mandatory
> >actions to take?
>
> You don't.
>
> You say "I'm finished with my actions." The Madness Network timing
> phase kicks in. It's still your minion phase, however, so you untap the
> minion now. However, you've already passed on the right to take more
> actions, so you can't take one.
Yes, I understand the mechanics of this loophole. How can you pass on
the "right" to take more actions, as it really isn't a right at all?
It is a priveledge granted by a loophole in the rules created by the
mere existance of a card, Madness Network, even if that card isn't in
play.
Can you exert this "right" to say I am finished with my actions when
you have 5 empty vampires untapped at the beginning of you minion
phase to avoid having to hunt?
James Coupe
s.com>, XZealot <xze...@cox.net> writes:
>Yes, I understand the mechanics of this loophole. How can you pass on
>the "right" to take more actions, as it really isn't a right at all?
Because there's a timing gap for Madness Network - much like there are
timing gaps for many other cards.
>It is a priveledge granted by a loophole in the rules created by the
>mere existance of a card, Madness Network, even if that card isn't in
>play.
>
>Can you exert this "right" to say I am finished with my actions when
>you have 5 empty vampires untapped at the beginning of you minion
>phase to avoid having to hunt?
No, because you have mandatory actions to take.
In the case of Rutor's Hand, you pass on the right when you have no
mandatory actions to take (because the RH vampire is untapped). Then
you untap. This doesn't undo the fact that you were done with your
actions.
XZealot
> In message <f77d1217-bdcb-4c67-8250-1718882e3...@d62g2000hsf.googlegroup
>
> s.com>, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> writes:
> >Yes, I understand the mechanics of this loophole. How can you pass on
> >the "right" to take more actions, as it really isn't a right at all?
>
> Because there's a timing gap for Madness Network - much like there are
> timing gaps for many other cards.
>
> >It is a priveledge granted by a loophole in the rules created by the
> >mere existance of a card, Madness Network, even if that card isn't in
> >play.
>
> >Can you exert this "right" to say I am finished with my actions when
> >you have 5 empty vampires untapped at the beginning of you minion
> >phase to avoid having to hunt?
>
> No, because you have mandatory actions to take.
>
> In the case of Rutor's Hand, you pass on the right when you have no
> mandatory actions to take (because the RH vampire is untapped). Then
> you untap. This doesn't undo the fact that you were done with your
> actions.
You untap which then triggers a mandatory action so you can't be done
with your actions.
How can you read it any other way?
LSJ
> On Mar 29, 6:47 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> LSJ wrote:
>>> XZealot wrote:
>>>> LSJ,
>>>> Can you end your minion phase if you still have mandatory actions to
>>>> take?
>>> No.
>>>> Specifically, can you untap an empty vampire with Rutor's Hand and end
>>>> your minion phase with an untapped vampire who has no blood?
>>> No. Not unless the minion is somehow prevented from hunting.
>> Ah, sorry. There's the "after I have finished my actions" part of the minion
>> phase (the Madness Network step).
>>
>> So, after you declare that you are finished with your actions (which you cannot
>> do if you have pending mandatories), then you can use Rutor's to untap the empty
>> and, having already declared you are finished with your actions, he would be
>> unable to hunt.
>
> How are able to be finished with your actions if you have mandatory
> actions to take?
You aren't.
Fortunately, that isn't the case in the set-up above.
When you finish with your actions, you have no mandatory actions to take -- the
empty vampire is tapped, so cannot hunt at that time.
> How does the existance of a Card that is not in play
> allow a minion to avoid mandatory actions?
It doesn't.
> By that reasoning if I have an empty vampire who is untapped at the
> beginning of my minion phase, then all I have to do is declare that I
> am done with my actions to avoid the exposure to minions attempting to
> block.
Incorrect.
> Certainly, if you untap during your minion phase with an empty minion,
> then you are by default "not done with your actions" as you have
> voluntarily queued an action by untapping an empty minion.
Not certainly. You are torturing the mechanics to come up with this new spurious
"default".
What is certain is that you cannot take another action after your are finished
taking actions, by the obvious definition / application of the phrase "finished
taking actions" and what it means to be finished.
> The
> mechanics of the game should force you to hunt at that point in time.
Shouldity is in the eye of the beholder.
> Certainly, you should be disallowed from untapping with an empty
> minion after you have declared that "I am done with my actions" as
> that is paradoxical on its face.
That is certainly not certain.
And it is far more certainly not paradoxical.
In fact, it is trivial and direct.
XZealot
Then please explain how it occurs?
> > By that reasoning if I have an empty vampire who is untapped at the
> > beginning of my minion phase, then all I have to do is declare that I
> > am done with my actions to avoid the exposure to minions attempting to
> > block.
>
> Incorrect.
Why is that incorrect?
> > Certainly, if you untap during your minion phase with an empty minion,
> > then you are by default "not done with your actions" as you have
> > voluntarily queued an action by untapping an empty minion.
>
> Not certainly. You are torturing the mechanics to come up with this new spurious
> "default".
Unfortunantly, the rulebook states in 6.1.2. Hunt (+1 stealth) Note
that a ready vampire with no blood must hunt (and cannot take any
action except the hunt action).
How is a vampire, who is untapped and must hunt by the rules, doing
anything other than the "default" action. Call it what you like. The
rules state that a ready vampire with no blood must hunt. How can it
be any other way without breaking the rules?
> What is certain is that you cannot take another action after your are finished
> taking actions, by the obvious definition / application of the phrase "finished
> taking actions" and what it means to be finished.
>
> > The
> > mechanics of the game should force you to hunt at that point in time.
>
> Shouldity is in the eye of the beholder.
That is an ad hominem response, and does not address the point.
Robert Scythe
> Fortunately, that isn't the case in the set-up above.
> When you finish with your actions, you have no mandatory actions to take -- the
> empty vampire is tapped, so cannot hunt at that time.
> What is certain is that you cannot take another action after your are finished
> taking actions, by the obvious definition / application of the phrase "finished
> taking actions" and what it means to be finished.
Well, then now this works (since this opportunity has come up a few
times) I can Tempt my crosstable ally's tapped blood free vampire
(that he desperately needs untapped to react/block), announce that I
am done with my actions and, during the MN window, can now take and
untap the vampire and give it back at the end of my turn without
having to tap it. Sweet.
Janne Hägglund
> Shouldity is in the eye of the beholder.
That's a sentence for printing, framing and hanging on a wall. :-)
HG
Peter D Bakija
h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hagglund) wrote:
Well, that, or the name of our next tournament...
"Shouldity is in the Eye of the Beholder: Ithaca!"
Coming soon.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man
LSJ
It doesn't.
There is no mandatory action to take when the empty vampire is tapped.
See the paragraph starting with the word "Fortunately" above.
Discussion is pointless if you only listen to yourself.
>>> By that reasoning if I have an empty vampire who is untapped at the
>>> beginning of my minion phase, then all I have to do is declare that I
>>> am done with my actions to avoid the exposure to minions attempting to
>>> block.
>> Incorrect.
>
> Why is that incorrect?
For the reason stated above.
To wit: "You are not able to declare yourself finished with your actions if you
have mandatory actions to take."
>>> Certainly, if you untap during your minion phase with an empty minion,
>>> then you are by default "not done with your actions" as you have
>>> voluntarily queued an action by untapping an empty minion.
>> Not certainly. You are torturing the mechanics to come up with this new spurious
>> "default".
>
> Unfortunantly, the rulebook states in 6.1.2. Hunt (+1 stealth) Note
> that a ready vampire with no blood must hunt (and cannot take any
> action except the hunt action).
>
> How is a vampire, who is untapped and must hunt by the rules, doing
> anything other than the "default" action. Call it what you like. The
> rules state that a ready vampire with no blood must hunt. How can it
> be any other way without breaking the rules?
An empty vampire controlled by my prey "must hunt" according to that section of
the rules.
You'll note that I can still end my minion phase even then.
Why?
Because that minion can't act.
Same thing here.
You can't take actions after you have finished taking actions.
>> What is certain is that you cannot take another action after your are finished
>> taking actions, by the obvious definition / application of the phrase "finished
>> taking actions" and what it means to be finished.
>>
>>> The
>>> mechanics of the game should force you to hunt at that point in time.
>> Shouldity is in the eye of the beholder.
>
> That is an ad hominem response, and does not address the point.
No, it is a response that contains no less substance than the sentence to which
it responds.
LSJ
> Well, then now this works (since this opportunity has come up a few
> times) I can Tempt my crosstable ally's tapped blood free vampire
> (that he desperately needs untapped to react/block), announce that I
> am done with my actions and, during the MN window, can now take and
> untap the vampire and give it back at the end of my turn without
> having to tap it. Sweet.
True.
XZealot
Right, I agree. The point is that above you wrote, " Ah, sorry.
There's the "after I have finished my actions" part of the minion
phase (the Madness Network step).
So, after you declare that you are finished with your actions (which
you cannot
do if you have pending mandatories), then you can use Rutor's to
untap the empty
and, having already declared you are finished with your actions, he
would be
unable to hunt."
This is what I do no understand. How can you be in your minion phase
and be untapped and be empty and not be obliged to hunt? Would you be
obliged to hunt if you were a Malkavian? Would all Malkavians be
obliged to hunt?
Wouldn't it make more sense that the "Madness Network Step" really be
considered "the Madness Network's Minion Phase" and not the player's
minion phase at all. This would prevent the player from untapping with
the Rutor's Hand and queuing an action that according to this ruling
that he is obliged to take by the rulebook but is avoiding taking.
Please explain in 500 words or less how and untapped vampire who has
no in play card effects that prevent him from hunting can avoid
hunting during his minion phase in contradiction to rule 6.1.2 of the
rulebook in layman's terms, please?
LSJ
Several ways, all of which can be summed up as "because you're not capable of
hunting".
Among the varieties of the ways to be unable to hunt are:
Having already hunted this turn and used Change of Target (or received Obedience).
Bearing a Talbot's Chainsaw.
Being Kyoko and being the only ready vampire on the table.
Being the only Ravnos on a table with Week of Nightmares in play.
Being unable to act at all.
Among the varieties of being unable to act at all are:
Having Bauble.
Being a Create Gargoyle on the turn you enter play.
Being a Creation Rites on the turn you enter play.
Being Gharston Roland after any action has been performed.
Having Paranoia.
Playing Mirror's Visage.
Having Reality.
Having Sensory Overload.
Entering play via Virolax Facility.
Being past the time window in which actions can be declared (namely: your
controller's minion phase up to, but not past, the point at which your
controlled is finished all of her minion phase actions).
That last item, if disputed, is shown to be true as follows:
Hunting is an action.
A Methuselah cannot perform more minion phase actions after she has finished all
her minion phase actions, by definition.
> Would you be
> obliged to hunt if you were a Malkavian? Would all Malkavians be
> obliged to hunt?
No. [RTR 28-NOV-1994]
> Wouldn't it make more sense that the "Madness Network Step" really be
> considered "the Madness Network's Minion Phase" and not the player's
> minion phase at all.
> This would prevent the player from untapping with
> the Rutor's Hand and queuing an action that according to this ruling
> that he is obliged to take by the rulebook but is avoiding taking.
Perhaps. But that would create other problems.
[snip]
>> You can't take actions after you have finished taking actions.
[snip]
> Please explain in 500 words or less how and untapped vampire who has
> no in play card effects that prevent him from hunting can avoid
> hunting during his minion phase in contradiction to rule 6.1.2 of the
> rulebook in layman's terms, please?
For example: he could be under the effects of a Change of Target.
Or it simply could be at a point in his controller's minion phase in which she
cannot attempt an action (i.e, after she has finished all her actions).
If you doubt that such a point exists, you need only examine Madness Network's
card text to verify that it does exist (whether or not Madness Network is in play).
XZealot
> Hunting is an action.
>
> A Methuselah cannot perform more minion phase actions after she has finished all
> her minion phase actions, by definition.
Where is this definition?
> > Would you be
> > obliged to hunt if you were a Malkavian? Would all Malkavians be
> > obliged to hunt?
>
> No. [RTR 28-NOV-1994]
>
> > Wouldn't it make more sense that the "Madness Network Step" really be
> > considered "the Madness Network's Minion Phase" and not the player's
> > minion phase at all.
> > This would prevent the player from untapping with
> > the Rutor's Hand and queuing an action that according to this ruling
> > that he is obliged to take by the rulebook but is avoiding taking.
>
> Perhaps. But that would create other problems.
Let's explore that. What would those problems be? Would they be more
or less problematic than a secret definition and a secret minion phase
that affects every vampire in every minon phase? Certainly, I see
potential for abuse.
> [snip]>> You can't take actions after you have finished taking actions.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Please explain in 500 words or less how and untapped vampire who has
> > no in play card effects that prevent him from hunting can avoid
> > hunting during his minion phase in contradiction to rule 6.1.2 of the
> > rulebook in layman's terms, please?
>
> For example: he could be under the effects of a Change of Target.
>
> Or it simply could be at a point in his controller's minion phase in which she
> cannot attempt an action (i.e, after she has finished all her actions).
>
> If you doubt that such a point exists, you need only examine Madness Network's
> card text to verify that it does exist (whether or not Madness Network is in play).
I certainly doubt it (why else would I be typing?), and certainly
every player who has never seen a Madness Network would doubt it. This
is a large number of players as Madness Network was last printed on
August 19, 2002.
LSJ
>> A Methuselah cannot perform more minion phase actions after she has finished all
>> her minion phase actions, by definition.
>
> Where is this definition?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/finished
[snip some alternate ruleset]
>> Perhaps. But that would create other problems.
>
> Let's explore that. What would those problems be?
Implement the alternate ruleset and find out. They come out easily. For my part,
I've spent too much time chasing this unruly goose already.
> Would they be more
> or less problematic than a secret definition and a secret minion phase
> that affects every vampire in every minon phase? Certainly, I see
> potential for abuse.
Again with the strawmen.
There is no secret definition or phase.
>> Or it simply could be at a point in his controller's minion phase in which she
>> cannot attempt an action (i.e, after she has finished all her actions).
>>
>> If you doubt that such a point exists, you need only examine Madness Network's
>> card text to verify that it does exist (whether or not Madness Network is in play).
>
> I certainly doubt it (why else would I be typing?), and certainly
> every player who has never seen a Madness Network would doubt it. This
> is a large number of players as Madness Network was last printed on
> August 19, 2002.
Ad hominem. You fail to address the point.
My participation in this tilting expedition is "finished".
Salem
Say there IS a madness network in play, and you finish all your actions.
Then someone else's Mariel takes a cryptic mission action against one of
your vampires with 1 blood. You're still at this 'end time' bit of your
minion phase, but you have an untapped vampire with 0 blood. Do you now
hunt with this vampire? If you do, you'd be contradicting the madness
network's "After a Methuselah has finished all of his or her minion
phase actions" text, because then Mariel would not have acted AFTER all
your minion phase actions. She would, in fact, have acted before this hunt.
So there has to be this 'end time' window within your minion phase,
where generally you're forbidden from taking actions (unless you have
specific text, like Madness Network). However, you are not allowed to
proceed to the 'end time' unless you have finished all your mandatory
actions.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
XZealot
That's a good example of the rule being enforced due to the presence
of Madness Network which provides its own circumstances due to its
text. It just seems that the availability of the circumstance in the
absence of Madness Network is nonsensical.
XZealot
> XZealot wrote:
> >> A Methuselah cannot perform more minion phase actions after she has finished all
> >> her minion phase actions, by definition.
>
> > Where is this definition?
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/finished
>
> [snip some alternate ruleset]
>
> >> Perhaps. But that would create other problems.
>
> > Let's explore that. What would those problems be?
>
> Implement the alternate ruleset and find out. They come out easily. For my part,
> I've spent too much time chasing this unruly goose already.
>
> > Would they be more
> > or less problematic than a secret definition and a secret minion phase
> > that affects every vampire in every minon phase? Certainly, I see
> > potential for abuse.
>
> Again with the strawmen.
> There is no secret definition or phase.
There certainly is. You called it the "after I have finished my
actions" part of the minion phase (the Madness Network step).
> >> Or it simply could be at a point in his controller's minion phase in which she
> >> cannot attempt an action (i.e, after she has finished all her actions).
>
> >> If you doubt that such a point exists, you need only examine Madness Network's
> >> card text to verify that it does exist (whether or not Madness Network is in play).
>
> > I certainly doubt it (why else would I be typing?), and certainly
> > every player who has never seen a Madness Network would doubt it. This
> > is a large number of players as Madness Network was last printed on
> > August 19, 2002.
>
> Ad hominem. You fail to address the point.
My point is that this is being enforced in the absence of a Madness
Network. So there is no card text to verify that it exists.
Robert Scythe
This newly recognized permanent window that the MN has opened has also
opened a side effect in rewinding. Forgetting to address certain
mandatory events (e.g., Leandro Tax, losing a pool to Fame, beginning
a non-mandatory action when an untapped minion with a mandatory action
exists, etc.) will usually result in rewinding the game to that point
(when possible) and resuming from that point, in which other decisions
may be made from the different situation that has now occured. Rutor's
Hand is a mandatory event and moving on to another phase before
resolving its untap has caused the game to rewind and resolve it,
usually offering the acting player another action with his newly
untapped minion. It would seem that this situation should now be
resolved by rewinding to the Rutor's untap at the point after the MN
window has occured (since it has). I do not believe that this would be
unfair since, though the Rutor's untap is mandatory, choosing to be
done with your actions is not.
Robert Scythe
Oh, I never 'thread-jacked' before so I thought that the "was (this
threads original title)" would just show up. I apologize with not
using the proper protocol.
Janne Hägglund
> Rutor's Hand is a mandatory event
> though the Rutor's untap is mandatory,
No, it isn't.
Rutor's Hand [DS:C, CE:PTr, KMW:PB3, Third:PTr]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
+1 stealth action.
[tha] Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire takes 1 unpreventable
aggravated damage. Beginning with your next turn, this vampire ***may untap***
once during each of your minion phases. A vampire may have only one Rutor's
Hand.
[THA] As above, but this acting vampire may prevent the aggravated damage by
burning 3 additional blood.
HG
Salem
It's also important for Thirst, otherwise all your now empty vampires
would have to hunt, causing a text paradox (like the madness cryptic
example).
Other things that could work during this window (although the usefulness
is dubious for most):
Alexandra
Nakhthorheb
Hannibal Advanced
Nu, The Pillar
Torvus Bloodbeard
Al's Army Apparatus
Emergency Preparations
Firebrand
Fortune Teller
Temptation (as already noted elsewhere)
Clotho's Gift
Dual Form
Judgment: Death to the Brujah!
Mind Rape
Slaughtering the Herd **Important from a 'burn 4 blood and not have to
hunt' point of view.
Tutu the Doubly Evil One (Bane Mummy)
James Coupe
<h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid> writes:
>Robert Scythe <rob...@exploretalent.com> writes:
>
>> Rutor's Hand is a mandatory event
>
>> though the Rutor's untap is mandatory,
>
>No, it isn't.
Specifically, it got changed so that it isn't.
It used to be mandatory.
Robert Scythe
> In message <m31w5su0dx....@nothung.homelinux.net>, Janne Hägglund
>
> <h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid> writes:
> >Robert Scythe <robe...@exploretalent.com> writes:
>
> >> Rutor's Hand is a mandatory event
>
> >> though the Rutor's untap is mandatory,
>
> >No, it isn't.
>
> Specifically, it got changed so that it isn't.
>
> It used to be mandatory.
Damn, I hadn't realized that they changed it. I only have the older
printings (though one of them looks to be CE era). Well, forget that
idea then.
XZealot
> Other things that could work during this window (although the usefulness
> is dubious for most):
A vampire with a Rutor's Hand could take advantage of this window to
be able to play bounce cards while empty (My Enemy's Enemy,
Redirection, or Murmur of the False Will) by being untapped where
normally he would be forced to hunt.
Daneel
>> Please explain in 500 words or less how and untapped vampire who has
>> no in play card effects that prevent him from hunting can avoid
>> hunting during his minion phase in contradiction to rule 6.1.2 of the
>> rulebook in layman's terms, please?
>
> For example: he could be under the effects of a Change of Target.
>
> Or it simply could be at a point in his controller's minion phase in
> which she cannot attempt an action (i.e, after she has finished all her
> actions).
>
> If you doubt that such a point exists, you need only examine Madness
> Network's card text to verify that it does exist (whether or not Madness
> Network is in play).
I think that as a general principle, due to the modular nature of a
collectible card game, the rulebooks and each card's updated text
should be clear enough to allow the handling of any situation related
to the given cards. Knowledge of another card's text should never be
required - nor assumed.
The phase where we are still in the minion phase, but done with all
actions, apparently exists because of Madness Network. If - neglecting
the existance of MN for argument's sake - it is generally intentional
to allow for such a part of the minion phase, then it would make sense
to define this in the rulebook. If it is due to a glitch and is not
intentional, then MN could - for example - be reworded to explicitly
create this phase of the minion phase, effectively limiting its effect
to when it is actually in play.
I could imagine a general principle pertaining to all phases saying that
after a player has finished all his phase-specific actions/effects in a
given phase, other players may still use effects during that phase,
without allowing the active player to respond with phase-specific
effects - e.g. saying "I don't discard" during the discard phase, then
when prey taps Barrens and discards Deflection, there is no way to go
back and discard Contingency Planning via regualar DPA - or if predator
has an untapped, 1-use-left Dreams, and my only master card is Dreams,
I declare during my master phase that I don't play a master, then still
during the MP my predator burns his Dreams, I can no longer play mine.
If such principle is indeed intended - then maybe it should be more
explicit... :)
--
Regards,
Daneel
tigernat1
Rob, you can do this with your OWN vampire too! Use his last blood to
play Temptation on himself and use that Temptation to untap in the
mysterious "Madness Network" phase.
Vegas gNat
Salem
>> Other things that could work during this window (although the usefulness
>> is dubious for most):
>
> A vampire with a Rutor's Hand could take advantage of this window to
> be able to play bounce cards while empty (My Enemy's Enemy,
> Redirection, or Murmur of the False Will) by being untapped where
> normally he would be forced to hunt.
I was kinda skipping over Rutor's, because it's where this whole thing
started. But yes, any number of these effects can result in an untapped
empty minion. How cool is that?! :)
LSJ
> This newly recognized permanent window that the MN has opened...
It was recognized at least by Dec 20, 2006.
> Rutor's Hand is a mandatory event
Others have responded already, but I'll restate it: Rutor's is
optional.
Robert Scythe
> On Mar 30, 3:25 am, Robert Scythe <robe...@exploretalent.com> wrote:
>
> > This newly recognized permanent window that the MN has opened...
>
> It was recognized at least by Dec 20, 2006.
Still seems to be new for a lot of people, check out this thread we're
in.
> > Rutor's Hand is a mandatory event
>
> Others have responded already, but I'll restate it: Rutor's is
> optional.
Yes, and I responded back acknowledging that I made a mistake not
being up with the latest printings. The evolution of this game can
make it difficult to have all these errata, rulings and text changes
in your head. I saw a Rutor's with a newer layout in my hand and saw
that it was still mandatory (hadn't realized that it had been changed
even since then).
Robert Scythe
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, but that won't help save my ally from dying (don't want anyone
else getting vp's!). Not sure if this window can truly be exploitive
aside from these relatively corner case tricks presented, but we shall
see.
XZealot
Cool, if everyone understands how it is possible, which still eludes
me.
Thrall of Arika
I have to admit I am a bit perplexed as well.
I can see that there now seems to be a "Declare all Minion Phase
Actions complete" phase during the Minion Phase, due to the wording of
one card that may not be in play. I can see how one can declare their
action complete, but still be able to do things afterwards, due to it
still being their overall Minion Phase (such as untapping during your
minion phase due to Rutor's Hand).
What I'm not following is how this does not force the empty vampire in
question to hunt. True, the player has declared their actions done,
but the play/use of a card has since changed the state of the game and
introduced a situation where the minion _must_ do something.
If this is to be the case all the time, rather than having Madness
Network is actually in play to allow for alterations to play due to
card text, then it seems that there should be more specific mention to
this in the Rulebook. There is no distinction made to delaring your
actions complete, and yet still be able to continue your Minion Phase.
There is also no definition of a Minion Phase Action. The only mention
of this concept seems to be on Madness Network and Thirst, neither of
which provide a clear distinction as to what it means to finish them.
It strikes me as more reasonable that the concept of 'actions' in this
case means the use and play of cards, much like Master Phase Actions
allow us to play a master card. It's not necessarily a minion actually
tapping and attempting to do something, but the Methuselah 'doing
something' through playing a card or using a card in play, such as
untapping. It seems to me that the intent of Madness Network was to
have minions acting during a minion phase, rather than create a new
minion phase (as would likely be the case if the card read 'at the end
of a methuselah's minion phase'), or have minions acting during
another phase of play (i.e. Influence Phase).
If Minion Phase Actions are to be specifically Actions, then when can
one declare that they are finished their Minion Phase Actions? Could I
declare this at the end of combat, then use Freak Drive on my minion
who had only one blood left, and thus not be forced to hunt?
James Coupe
s.com>, Thrall of Arika <christoph...@amec.com> writes:
>What I'm not following is how this does not force the empty vampire in
>question to hunt. True, the player has declared their actions done,
>but the play/use of a card has since changed the state of the game and
>introduced a situation where the minion _must_ do something.
If a minion ends up untapped during their prey's turn - for example, a
Rat's Warning and a failed block - they are not then compelled to hunt.
Why not? Because it's not the time for them to take actions.
When you've declared your actions done - because you have no mandatory
actions to take, and have chosen not to take any more - it's not the
time to take actions.
Thrall of Arika
> In message <f9ef206e-b613-42b6-8dd4-70838b814...@q27g2000prf.googlegroup
> s.com>, Thrall of Arika <christopher.ack...@amec.com> writes:
>
> >What I'm not following is how this does not force the empty vampire in
> >question to hunt. True, the player has declared their actions done,
> >but the play/use of a card has since changed the state of the game and
> >introduced a situation where the minion _must_ do something.
>
> If a minion ends up untapped during their prey's turn - for example, a
> Rat's Warning and a failed block - they are not then compelled to hunt.
> Why not? Because it's not the time for them to take actions.
The vampire must hunt (Rule 6.1.2: "Note that a ready vampire with no
blood must hunt (and cannot take any action except the hunt action)").
They just can't take the action yet because you can only take actions
during your Minion Phase, as stated in the rules (Rule 6): "During
your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions."
> When you've declared your actions done - because you have no mandatory
> actions to take, and have chosen not to take any more - it's not the
> time to take actions.
Nowhere in the rules that I could find does it state that there is a
time during your Minion Phase that you cannot take actions. Indeed,
the rules imply that you can at any point: "As noted, only ready
untapped minions can take actions, and taking an action taps the
acting minion. So, if the minion manages to untap (due to a card or an
effect) during this phase, it is possible for him to take another
action."
I can see such a state being created by a card put into play, since
card text over-rides the base rules. It just seems strange and wrong
to imply game states based on cards that a player may not even own,
much less seen in play, rather than by the basic rules.
Chris, Thrall of Arika
James Coupe
s.com>, Thrall of Arika <christoph...@amec.com> writes:
>Nowhere in the rules that I could find does it state that there is a
>time during your Minion Phase that you cannot take actions.
LSJ's official rulings supplement the rules.
If you are expecting a tiny rulebook to comprehensively cover
everything, you will be severely disappointed. There are many things
not in the paper rulebook. LSJ has clearly indicated that there is such
a time, with his reasoning for the existence of such a phase.
Similarly, nothing in the rulebook indicates the existence of many of
the phases of combat that many of us take for granted. Why do we take
them for granted? Because they exist on card text. The rulebook tells
me that the first thing we do in combat is determine range. But wait!
There's a phase before that! It's not in the rulebook, so everybody
dies.
It might be more helpful if Madness Network were to be worded in a way
other than how it is, but that's not where we are right now. If LSJ
were to reprint the card in the future, possibly he might want to reword
it to work differently. I have no idea if it's on his list, or the list
for the Design Team to look at, or anything like that. Since the phase
was uncovered, there's been no opportunity to reprint it, though.
LSJ
> What I'm not following is how this does not force the empty vampire in
> question to hunt.
Because hunting is an action. And you can't take an action after you've finished
with your actions, by definition.
> There is no distinction made to delaring your
> actions complete, and yet still be able to continue your Minion Phase.
Actually, what there is not is some extra connection that stipulates that your
minion phase ends the moment you are done with your actions. (Good thing, too,
since such an addition would make Madness Network a lot less useful).
Similarly, you may finish with your transfers (your influence phase actions) and
still continue your influence phase (and, say, bring out the full minions).
Or finish with your master phase actions and still continue with your master phase.
Or finish with your discard phase actions and continue with your discard phase.
> There is also no definition of a Minion Phase Action.
?
Because the English suffices.
> The only mention
> of this concept seems to be on Madness Network and Thirst, neither of
> which provide a clear distinction as to what it means to finish them.
Again, because the English definition is used.
Similarly, Madness Network doesn't provide a clear distinction of what
"normally eligible blockers" means.
Only game terms that have meanings other than their standard English meanings
need special distinction.
> It strikes me as more reasonable that the concept of 'actions' in this
> case means the use and play of cards, much like Master Phase Actions
> allow us to play a master card. It's not necessarily a minion actually
> tapping and attempting to do something, but the Methuselah 'doing
> something' through playing a card or using a card in play, such as
> untapping.
Uh, no. That would be "effect" or "activity". See also the subsequent use of
"action" on Madness Network's card text.
> It seems to me that the intent of Madness Network was to
> have minions acting during a minion phase, rather than create a new
> minion phase (as would likely be the case if the card read 'at the end
> of a methuselah's minion phase'), or have minions acting during
> another phase of play (i.e. Influence Phase).
Correct, no new phase is created, and the out-of-turn actions are not conducted
during a different phase. But they are also restricted to a specified portion of
the minion phase. The out-of-turn Malk actions can only be taken after all of
the in-phase minion actions are done. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the explicit
restriction given in card text giving that restriction.
> If Minion Phase Actions are to be specifically Actions, then when can
> one declare that they are finished their Minion Phase Actions?
Um, when it is true.
> Could I
> declare this at the end of combat, then use Freak Drive on my minion
> who had only one blood left, and thus not be forced to hunt?
No. Freak Drive cannot be played after the action is over.
Johannes Walch
> It might be more helpful if Madness Network were to be worded in a way
> other than how it is, but that's not where we are right now. If LSJ
> were to reprint the card in the future, possibly he might want to reword
> it to work differently. I have no idea if it's on his list, or the list
> for the Design Team to look at, or anything like that. Since the phase
> was uncovered, there's been no opportunity to reprint it, though.
Out of curiosity: What happens if Madness Network is banned? Is the
special phase removed (in tournament play) or is the empty untap by
Rutor愀 still possible?
More general, is there always a "End of x phase" window that occurs
after I have declared that my x actions are over? Does this window
always prevent rollback?
Thrall of Arika
> In message <f64295b0-76ea-41f7-9d44-f60b05cf4...@q27g2000prf.googlegroup
> s.com>, Thrall of Arika <christopher.ack...@amec.com> writes:
>
> >Nowhere in the rules that I could find does it state that there is a
> >time during your Minion Phase that you cannot take actions.
>
> LSJ's official rulings supplement the rules.
>
> If you are expecting a tiny rulebook to comprehensively cover
> everything, you will be severely disappointed. There are many things
> not in the paper rulebook. LSJ has clearly indicated that there is such
> a time, with his reasoning for the existence of such a phase.
> Similarly, nothing in the rulebook indicates the existence of many of
> the phases of combat that many of us take for granted. Why do we take
> them for granted? Because they exist on card text. The rulebook tells
> me that the first thing we do in combat is determine range. But wait!
> There's a phase before that! It's not in the rulebook, so everybody
> dies.
No, I certainly don't expect the rulebook to cover everything. I have
reams of printouts that attest to that. :)
I'm not arguing that such a phase division exists, and in fact it
makes sense. It parallels the other phases, in that I can be done with
those Phase Actions, but still be in the phase for other effects. My
point of contention is the use of cards that change the game state and
create obligatory effects. This ruling has created a state where I can
get around basic rules by exploiting issues of timing and
declarations. I'm sure that before this topic arose, that the majority
of people here, and of VTES players in general, followed this line of
thought: I untap my empty vampire with Rutor's Hand. They must hunt.
It's my Minion Phase still. Therefore, my vampire has to tap and
hunt.
That seems to flow more intuitively, since the Minion Phase is the
only phase that has no set amount of 'actions'. A Metheselah can keep
acting as long as they have untapped minions, or cards that allow them
to act when tapped. We don't declare when we're done with Master Phase
Actions, because it's pretty clear just how many we have, likewise
Discard Phase Actions. We either use them all, or declare that phase
over when we're done. I've never once thought there a need to declare
that a phase's actions were done.
It just seems a little loop-holey for me. But I accept the ruling, I
can see the logic of it by game rules. It's just the old dog syndrome,
from having been playing a certain way and having a certain mindset
about how the game works. And considering there's only like 2 cards
that can 'exploit' this, I don't suppose in itself it's the end of the
world ... just another sign of the coming Gehenna. :)
On Mar 31, 2:23 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Thrall of Arika wrote:
> > What I'm not following is how this does not force the empty vampire in
> > question to hunt.
>
> Because hunting is an action. And you can't take an action after you've finished
> with your actions, by definition.
>
> > There is no distinction made to delaring your
> > actions complete, and yet still be able to continue your Minion Phase.
>
> Actually, what there is not is some extra connection that stipulates that your
> minion phase ends the moment you are done with your actions. (Good thing, too,
> since such an addition would make Madness Network a lot less useful).
I'm not seeing how that would make Madness Network less useful, other
than preserving that actions can only be taken during a minion phase.
In fact, it seems to be a bit stronger if it was this way, since the
current Metheselah couldn't then untap with cards like Rutor's Hand.
> Similarly, you may finish with your transfers (your influence phase actions) and
> still continue your influence phase (and, say, bring out the full minions).
>
> Or finish with your master phase actions and still continue with your master phase.
>
> Or finish with your discard phase actions and continue with your discard phase.
True, but these are all distinct. You only have your 4 transfers, 1
Master Phase Action, and 1 Discard Phase Action (modified by cards
text, of course). Once you use them, there's really no way to get more
without cards having already been out on the table beforehand, or
perhaps card text akin to Trifles. We technically have an unlimited
amout of actions we can take in a Minion Phase. The only thing that
prevents us is the eventual tapping out of our minions, since tapping
is a cost for taking an action in the first place (even then, we're
not necessarily done, thanks to cards like Force of Will).
Does this mean we have to declare when we are finished with our
Transfers/Master Phase Actions/Discard Phase Actions? And if some
effect forces us to use one after we declared we're done, we're no
longer obligated to, since we already declared we're finished? I'm
also presuming that a declaration that one's phase is over means you
are automatically finished with your actions for that phase, akin to
bouncing a bleed automatically meaning you've declined to block.
> > There is also no definition of a Minion Phase Action.
>
> ?
>
> Because the English suffices.
If you only read it as in context to the Minion Phase, and minions
taking actions. But the parallel structure and language use throughout
the game can lead to other conclusions. Master Phase and Discard Phase
Actions are not minion actions, but are considered uses of cards. A
Master Phase Action lets me play one Master card, or to use a card
effect that uses a Master Phase Action, such as drawing a blood off an
Investment. The 'actions' of these phases are clearly laid out.
> > The only mention
> > of this concept seems to be on Madness Network and Thirst, neither of
> > which provide a clear distinction as to what it means to finish them.
>
> Again, because the English definition is used.
>
> Similarly, Madness Network doesn't provide a clear distinction of what
> "normally eligible blockers" means.
>
> Only game terms that have meanings other than their standard English meanings
> need special distinction.
True, but 'eligible blockers' is known in context of the game, as
eligible blockers are described through the rules.
> > It strikes me as more reasonable that the concept of 'actions' in this
> > case means the use and play of cards, much like Master Phase Actions
> > allow us to play a master card. It's not necessarily a minion actually
> > tapping and attempting to do something, but the Methuselah 'doing
> > something' through playing a card or using a card in play, such as
> > untapping.
>
> Uh, no. That would be "effect" or "activity". See also the subsequent use of
> "action" on Madness Network's card text.
So why do we not have Master Phase Effects instead? I'm not trying to
argue wording, just that the wording can be taken multiple ways, as is
the case of the word "action". "Action" is used to express a
quantified play of a card, as well as an effect generated by a card
used or a default effect allowed by the rules that a minion can
perform. Thus we have Master Phase Actions and Discard Phase Actions,
which are nothing akin to minion actions such as a Bleed Action or a
Political Action.
Chris, Thrall of Arika