Horrid Reality Question for LSJ
Bagheera
Ravnos enters combat and drops horrid reality at superior
I reach through my deck and pull out an assult rifle, proceed to manuver
to long and blast away with some DBRounds.
DBR (Jyhad text, don't have vtes one) states that ... burns the gun
after it is used.
HR at superior states to return the equipment to the library at the end
of combat, then reshuffle.
(Hope that qualifies at not full card text.) ;)
Thanks!
Even if this doesn't work the way I hope it does, it's still nasty. Free
3r +2AG ;)
Well, HR costs (2).
--David
James Coupe
> DBR (Jyhad text, don't have vtes one) states that ... burns the gun
> after it is used.
>
> HR at superior states to return the equipment to the library at the end
> of combat, then reshuffle.
Rulings state that this does not extend to the ash-heap. A friend of mine
tried it a long while ago.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with nobody
around me."
ravnos...@my-deja.com
100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
created with Horrid Reality is burned are you?! That would just be
insane! Why would it destroy a weapon that doesn't exist?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
LSJ
> James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> > Bagheera wrote:
> > > [Horrid Reality a gun out, use Dragon's Breath Rounds, which
> > > burns the gun.]
> > > DBR (Jyhad text, don't have vtes one) states that ... burns the gun
> > > after it is used.
> > >
> > > HR at superior states to return the equipment to the library at the
> > > end of combat, then reshuffle.
> >
> > Rulings state that this does not extend to the ash-heap. A friend of
> > mine tried it a long while ago.
> created with Horrid Reality is burned are you?! That would just be
> insane!
Following card text is insane?
>Why would it destroy a weapon that doesn't exist?
What is "it"? The Horrid Reality doesn't "destroy"
the weapon - DBR does. Since the weapon doesn't
exist, there's no real "logic" preventing the card (not
the weapon, since it never existed) from remaining
in the ash heap.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
James Coupe
> > You aren't actually saying that the illusionary weapon that was
> created with Horrid Reality is burned are you?! That would just be
Dragon's Breath Rounds sends the weapon in use to the ash heap. You have
a weapon in use - the gun. It goes to the ash heap. "Real
world" concerns do not play a part. The cards take precedence.
Horrid Reality will not, then, over-ride the ash-heap, or fetch cards back
into the library from it.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> > > Bagheera wrote:
> > > > [Horrid Reality a gun out, use Dragon's Breath Rounds, which
> > > > burns the gun.]
> > > > DBR (Jyhad text, don't have vtes one) states that ... burns the
gun
> > > > after it is used.
> > > >
> > > > HR at superior states to return the equipment to the library at
the
> > > > end of combat, then reshuffle.
> > >
> > > Rulings state that this does not extend to the ash-heap. A
friend of
> > > mine tried it a long while ago.
> > created with Horrid Reality is burned are you?! That would just be
> > insane!
>
it insane to follow the card text to return the piece of equipment to
your your deck? Why do you follow one card text and not the other?
What makes the DBR override the HR? Because one is more detrimental
than the other? The actual weapon never really existed why should it
be burned?
>
> >Why would it destroy a weapon that doesn't exist?
>
> the weapon - DBR does. Since the weapon doesn't
> exist, there's no real "logic" preventing the card (not
> the weapon, since it never existed) from remaining
> in the ash heap.
>
reality only causes the victim to believe the weapon is there. It
really isn't. Therefore, it makes no since to burn the card.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
> > created with Horrid Reality is burned are you?! That would just be
>
> Dragon's Breath Rounds sends the weapon in use to the ash heap. You
have
> a weapon in use - the gun. It goes to the ash heap. "Real
> world" concerns do not play a part. The cards take precedence.
>
> Horrid Reality will not, then, over-ride the ash-heap, or fetch cards
back
> into the library from it.
>
> --
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
superior states "AS ABOVE, BUT AT THE END OF COMBAT, RETURN THE
EQUIPMENT TO THE LIBRARY. RESHUFFLE AFTERWARDS. And technically there
is no weapon in use only the illusion of a weapon with DBR.
Gary J. Weiner
> Why would DBR destroy a weapon that never really existed? Horrid
> reality only causes the victim to believe the weapon is there. It
> really isn't. Therefore, it makes no since to burn the card.
But if the gun doesn't really exist, how can you play an ammo card on
it? That kind of logic can cut both ways.
--
Gary J. Weiner \ "We've got a blind date with Destiny...and
webm...@hatrack.net \ it looks like she's ordered the lobster."
http://www.hatrack.net \ -The Shoveler, "Mystery Men"
"Hang Your Web With Us!"\
James Coupe
> No it won't fetch cards back but why does DBR over-ride HR which at
> superior states "AS ABOVE, BUT AT THE END OF COMBAT, RETURN THE
> EQUIPMENT TO THE LIBRARY. RESHUFFLE AFTERWARDS. And technically there
> is no weapon in use only the illusion of a weapon with DBR.
The card is now in the ash-heap.
When cards enter the ash-heap, they "forget" everything about themselves.
Dog
> reality only causes the victim to believe the weapon is there. It
> really isn't. Therefore, it makes no since to burn the card.
May I recommend you perform a little research into how Horrid Reality works
in the World of Darkness?
The power of Horrid Reality creates objects which have 'real, physical'
effects, which are not limited to just the victim.
In Jyhad, burning a library card is clearly one of the 'real physical'
effects of Horrid Reality :o)
Groovy huh?
-----------------------------------------
On the Net nobody can tell you're a Dog
Peace & Mung Beans
Dog
Dog
ravnos...@my-deja.com
"Gary J. Weiner" <webm...@hatrack.net> wrote:
> ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Why would DBR destroy a weapon that never really existed? Horrid
> > reality only causes the victim to believe the weapon is there. It
> > really isn't. Therefore, it makes no since to burn the card.
>
> it? That kind of logic can cut both ways.
>
> --
> Gary J. Weiner \ "We've got a blind date with Destiny...and
> webm...@hatrack.net \ it looks like she's ordered the lobster."
> http://www.hatrack.net \ -The Shoveler, "Mystery Men"
> "Hang Your Web With Us!"\
>
discipline to create the hallucination of a gun firing DBR than it oes
to create one of a gun firing regular ammo.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
"Dog" <warp...@biosys.net> wrote:
> > Why would DBR destroy a weapon that never really existed? Horrid
> > reality only causes the victim to believe the weapon is there. It
> > really isn't. Therefore, it makes no since to burn the card.
>
works
> in the World of Darkness?
>
> The power of Horrid Reality creates objects which have 'real,
physical'
> effects, which are not limited to just the victim.
>
> In Jyhad, burning a library card is clearly one of the 'real physical'
> effects of Horrid Reality :o)
>
> Groovy huh?
> -----------------------------------------
> On the Net nobody can tell you're a Dog
> Peace & Mung Beans
> Dog
>
"*****Horrid Reality
Rather than creat simple illusions, the vampire can now project
HALLUCINATIONS directly into a victim's mind. The target of these
ILLUSIONS believes completely that the images are real; a hallucinatory
fire can burn him, an imaginary noose can strangle him, and an illusory
wall can block him. This power ONLY AFFECTS ONE PERSON AT A
TIME;......"
Vampire The Masquerade
1998 White Wolf Publishing
Care to explain?
ravnos...@my-deja.com
Bagheera
heap over-rides HR. At least in a Chi heavy deck.
David
James Coupe wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2000 ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > You aren't actually saying that the illusionary weapon that was
> > created with Horrid Reality is burned are you?! That would just be
> > insane! Why would it destroy a weapon that doesn't exist?
>
> Dragon's Breath Rounds sends the weapon in use to the ash heap. You have
> a weapon in use - the gun. It goes to the ash heap. "Real
> world" concerns do not play a part. The cards take precedence.
>
> Horrid Reality will not, then, over-ride the ash-heap, or fetch cards back
> into the library from it.
>
James Coupe
> > I Quote:
> "*****Horrid Reality
If you are so set on the RPG, would you like us to alter the rules on
aggravated damage? Agg damage doesn't send you immediately to torpor in
V:tM. Should we include dice rolls to simulate the RPG?
The RPG was a base for the game. The game is *not* the RPG.
James Coupe
*shrug*
If you're going to be quite so childish, and not listen to answers, why
bother asking questions?
When DBR is played, the gun is in play. The DBR then goes into the
ash-heap, as all transient cards do when played.
When combat ends, as per superior Horrid Reality, there is no longer any
equipment to return to the library. The card has gone into the
ash-heap. Cards in the ash-heap cannot be targetted unless they have
specific card text allowing such (e.g. Whispers from the Dead). The
default for all cards is that they must target a card which is "in play".
ravnos...@my-deja.com
> > So is DBR. Guess it forgot too huh?
>
> *shrug*
>
> If you're going to be quite so childish, and not listen to answers,
why
> bother asking questions?
Why is it you are the only person on this newsgroup I have ever seen
resort to name calling and attacking individuals when you don't agree
with them? Personality disorder? Don't know don't care. I was simply
stating that why do we forget one card and not the other. After all,
as I stated it is not a real weapon why does it burn?
>
> When DBR is played, the gun is in play. The DBR then goes into the
> ash-heap, as all transient cards do when played.
>
> When combat ends, as per superior Horrid Reality, there is no longer
any
> equipment to return to the library. The card has gone into the
> ash-heap. Cards in the ash-heap cannot be targetted unless they have
> specific card text allowing such (e.g. Whispers from the Dead). The
> default for all cards is that they must target a card which is "in
play".
>
> --
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
>
> Now that made sense. Was that so hard? However, I still maintain
that the gun never existed and as I go to place my cards in the ash
heap I see that Horrid Reality at superior tells me to return it to the
Library. No need (or reason I might add)to burn it. Why would you
deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
gun burned?
LSJ
> However, I still maintain
> that the gun never existed and as I go to place my cards in the ash
> heap I see that Horrid Reality at superior tells me to return it to the
> Library.
Horrid Reality's card text doesn't apply at that time.
(See card text)
> No need (or reason I might add)to burn it. Why would you
> deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
> gun burned?
Because of card text on DBR.
There are many combos in the card game that don't make strict sense
from a "real world" point of view. But it is better to have a solid
foundation for game play (card text/rules text) than a soft one
("real world justification").
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
ceci...@my-deja.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> There are many combos in the card game that don't make strict sense
> from a "real world" point of view. But it is better to have a solid
> foundation for game play (card text/rules text) than a soft one
> ("real world justification").
>
LSJ,
I have trouble with what you said. As a new player I am still learning
the mechanics of the game. However I don't see the problem with stating
that the "equipment" you are using is illusionary and after use is
returned back to your library, when Horrid Reality is played at
superior. Even if it burns by the use of an ammo card. If I follow your
logic then if the first piece of equipment I would find is the White
Phosphorus Grenade, I must take 1 aggravated damage from my own
illusion. Is that correct?
Paul Cecil
James Coupe
> Now that made sense. Was that so hard?
It already made sense. You apparently would not (rather than could
not) understand it.
> However, I still maintain
> that the gun never existed
In V:TES, it did. The card was in play. The card existed.
and as I go to place my cards in the ash
> heap I see that Horrid Reality at superior tells me to return it to the
> Library. No need (or reason I might add)to burn it. Why would you
> deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
> gun burned?
Because this is a card game, and not the RPG. The gun was real, as far as
the card game is concerned. You appear to be not understanding this
point.
As regards your tin-pot psychology, you are talking about things you do
not understand, and clearly have not read enough of the group if you
believe your claims to be true.
James Coupe
> superior. Even if it burns by the use of an ammo card. If I follow your
> logic then if the first piece of equipment I would find is the White
> Phosphorus Grenade, I must take 1 aggravated damage from my own
> illusion. Is that correct?
Yes.
Card text states to take 1 aggravated damage, so you do.
Horrid Reality doesn't allow you to pick and choose what you do.
Horrid Reality causes *real* effects in Jyhad, and they are just as real
for you as for the other vampire.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
>
> > > I Quote:
> > "*****Horrid Reality
>
> If you are so set on the RPG, would you like us to alter the rules on
> aggravated damage? Agg damage doesn't send you immediately to torpor
in
> V:tM. Should we include dice rolls to simulate the RPG?
>
> The RPG was a base for the game. The game is *not* the RPG.
>
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
>
Isn't it? I won't bother to answer your obviously rhetorical
question. When you play the cards you lay them on the table. At least
in our group we lay them out as they happen. Therefore, I lay out the
Horrid Reality. Then I find the weapon and place that on the HR.
Lastly I would lay the DBR on top of that. Then, combat is over I
would pick up the cards and start discarding. Since HR states to
return the gun to my Library I would. Only makes sense that a
hallucinatory gun could not be destroyed by DBR. This is my opinion.
While it may not (and most probably won't with rules makers like we
have in place)be an accepted method of play, I think it needs to be
discussed. Besides, most players like to know the reasoning behind the
rules. Not that we agree with all of them but at least then we
understand the concept behind it. I voice my opinion you voice yours.
LSJ seems to think a lot like you but then again there are some that
think like me. Am I right? Maybe. Are you right? Possible. I see
no reason for DBR to over-rule HR. LSJ will most probably rule with
you as seems to always be the case. I will live with that and play
with that. But, I will always be here to voice my disagreement with
rules that I feel are wrong.
Brent
That wasn't too bad was it Carl?
ravnos...@my-deja.com
> > heap I see that Horrid Reality at superior tells me to return it to
the
> > Library.
>
> (See card text)
>
> > deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
> > gun burned?
>
>
> from a "real world" point of view. But it is better to have a solid
> foundation for game play (card text/rules text) than a soft one
> ("real world justification").
>
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
HR. It would seem that the discipline cards would be more inclined to
over-rule the the non-discipline cards.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
> LSJ,
> I have trouble with what you said. As a new player I am still learning
> the mechanics of the game. However I don't see the problem with
stating
> that the "equipment" you are using is illusionary and after use is
> returned back to your library, when Horrid Reality is played at
your
> logic then if the first piece of equipment I would find is the White
> Phosphorus Grenade, I must take 1 aggravated damage from my own
> illusion. Is that correct?
>
1. If a minion does Strike: Destroy equipment Do I burn the card then?
2. If a minion does Strike: Steal equipment first strike then blur do
I take damage from an illusion that I created?
By your reasoning the answer to both would be yes. And that just
doesn't hold water.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2000 ceci...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > superior. Even if it burns by the use of an ammo card. If I follow
your
> > logic then if the first piece of equipment I would find is the White
> > Phosphorus Grenade, I must take 1 aggravated damage from my own
> > illusion. Is that correct?
>
>
> Card text states to take 1 aggravated damage, so you do.
>
> Horrid Reality doesn't allow you to pick and choose what you do.
>
> Horrid Reality causes *real* effects in Jyhad, and they are just as
real
> for you as for the other vampire.
>
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
>
at Superior do I ash heap the WPG or do I return it to my Library?
ravnos...@my-deja.com
> > Now that made sense. Was that so hard?
>
> It already made sense. You apparently would not (rather than could
> not) understand it.
>
No it didn't. I did understand where you were trying to go; however
you just didn't want to get there.
> > However, I still maintain
> > that the gun never existed
>
> In V:TES, it did. The card was in play. The card existed.
>
> and as I go to place my cards in the ash
> > heap I see that Horrid Reality at superior tells me to return it to
the
> > Library. No need (or reason I might add)to burn it. Why would you
> > deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
> > gun burned?
>
> Because this is a card game, and not the RPG. The gun was real, as
far as
> the card game is concerned. You appear to be not understanding this
> point.
>
If the gun is real then why do you not pay the cost and why at normal
do you burn it and at superior you return it to the library? If it
really existed then you are talking about Disguised or concealed
weapon. Don't start me on the later because for the record I agree
with Mr Eichler.
> As regards your tin-pot psychology, you are talking about things you
do
> not understand, and clearly have not read enough of the group if you
> believe your claims to be true.
>
I stand corrected it is quite prevelent. However, other do tend to do
it on an irregular bases and often return with an apoligy either to the
newsgroup or the individual they insulted. Where I admit I am a
sporadic reader, I must confess I have seen you do neither.
> --
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
>
>
LSJ
> [...] I lay out the
> Horrid Reality. Then I find the weapon and place that on the HR.
> Lastly I would lay the DBR on top of that. Then, combat is over I
Before combat is over, you would have to resolve the weapon strike.
When that happens, DBR burns the weapon. Before Horrid Reality can
return it to the library.
> would pick up the cards and start discarding. Since HR states to
> return the gun to my Library I would. Only makes sense that a
> hallucinatory gun could not be destroyed by DBR. This is my opinion.
> While it may not (and most probably won't with rules makers like we
> have in place)be an accepted method of play, I think it needs to be
> discussed. Besides, most players like to know the reasoning behind the
> rules.
In this case: card text.
LSJ
>
> In article <39202EF7...@white-wolf.com>,
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > There are many combos in the card game that don't make strict sense
> > from a "real world" point of view. But it is better to have a solid
> > foundation for game play (card text/rules text) than a soft one
> > ("real world justification").
> >
>
> I have trouble with what you said. As a new player I am still learning
> the mechanics of the game. However I don't see the problem with stating
> that the "equipment" you are using is illusionary and after use is
> returned back to your library, when Horrid Reality is played at
> superior.
Because it is in the ash heap - it is no longer in play to be returned
to your library. Cards in the ash heap cannot be affected by things
except as explicitly declared in card text - Horrid Reality lacks such
a specification.
> Even if it burns by the use of an ammo card. If I follow your
> logic then if the first piece of equipment I would find is the White
> Phosphorus Grenade, I must take 1 aggravated damage from my own
> illusion. Is that correct?
Yes. Horrid Reality says nothing about protecting you (or the other
minion, or the weapon itself) from the effects of the weapon (or
of ammo or anything else).
Tom Longwell
ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Now that made sense. Was that so hard? However, I still maintain
> that the gun never existed and as I go to place my cards in the ash
> heap I see that Horrid Reality at superior tells me to return it to the
> Library. No need (or reason I might add)to burn it. Why would you
> deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
> gun burned?
Ok, here's what I think the problem is. Mr. Ravnos-Shadow, you are
frankly too fixated on real life reasons. Jyhad is a game, which
implies it is a group activity performed for recreation governed by
*certain rules*. In games, even games which seek to mimic real life to
some degree, the rules will often not make real world sense so that they
are as uniform as possible. This is one of these cases. You don't seem
to dispute that the rules say that the gun is burned- due to the fact
that cards forget things once they hit the asp heap. If you like, look
at it this way. Horrid Reality is played, and you put the gun into
play. Because Horrid Reality is a transient, it goes to the ash heap,
and the gun is tagged with a "return to library at end of combat"
effect. Then Dragon's Breath Rounds is played, tagging the gun with a
"burn after use" effect. The damage resolves, the gun goes to the ash
heap due to DBR, and it forgets the effect of Horrid Reality. End of
Story. It may not make real world sense, but it is exactly what the
cards say. Sorry.
--
S'io credesse che mia risposta fosse
a persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
Ma per ciò che giammai di questo fondo
non tornò vivo alcun, s'i' odo il vero,
senza tema d'infamia ti rispondo.
T.S. Eliot- "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
LSJ
> If I used Horrid Reality
> at Superior do I ash heap the WPG or do I return it to my Library?
WPG is burned (card text on WPG). This happens before the end of
combat, so it cannot be circumvented by Horrid Reality's "return to
library" effect.
LSJ
> A valid point. And on that note you might also ask:
> 1. If a minion does Strike: Destroy equipment Do I burn the card then?
Yes. The weapon is burned during strike resolution, which is
before the end of combat.
> 2. If a minion does Strike: Steal equipment first strike then blur do
> I take damage from an illusion that I created?
No, since this tactic is illegal, illusion or not - you cannot strike
with a stolen weapon in the round in which you steal it. [6.4.5]
If someone presses and then he uses it to strike with in the second
round, then of course you'd take damage.
> By your reasoning the answer to both would be yes. And that just
> doesn't hold water.
IMO these answers hold water.
LSJ
> > > that the gun never existed and as I go to place my cards in the ash
> > > heap I see that Horrid Reality at superior tells me to return it to
> the
> > > Library.
> >
> > (See card text)
> >
> > > deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
> > > gun burned?
> >
>
> HR. It would seem that the discipline cards would be more inclined to
> over-rule the the non-discipline cards.
The presence of a discipline symbol or lack thereof has no bearing on
the "strength" or staying power of an effect.
DBR "wins out" here because it burns the weapon before Horrid Reality
can return it to the library - simple timing. Once in the ash heap,
the card cannot be affected by general effects - the effect must
explicitly state that cards in the ash heap are affected.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
> > Horrid Reality. Then I find the weapon and place that on the HR.
> > Lastly I would lay the DBR on top of that. Then, combat is over I
>
> Before combat is over, you would have to resolve the weapon strike.
> When that happens, DBR burns the weapon. Before Horrid Reality can
> return it to the library.
>
> > would pick up the cards and start discarding. Since HR states to
> > return the gun to my Library I would. Only makes sense that a
> > hallucinatory gun could not be destroyed by DBR. This is my
opinion.
> > While it may not (and most probably won't with rules makers like we
> > have in place)be an accepted method of play, I think it needs to be
> > discussed. Besides, most players like to know the reasoning behind
the
> > rules.
>
> In this case: card text.
>
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
gun. Like I said, I didn't for one brief moment believe that my
opinion or others that were posted would be listened to or given any
merit. I would say I was just playing devil's advocate; but, I
honestly believe this is a misinterpretation of card texts. I have
voiced my opinion. I still disagree. However, as our group always
plays with and by the rules (when we know them) I will play this way.
I will end my argument on this as the only answers forth coming are the
same as have been stated.
Brent
ravnos...@my-deja.com
Rob Grau
> In article <39205BC3...@white-wolf.com>,
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > would pick up the cards and start discarding. Since HR states to
> > > return the gun to my Library I would. Only makes sense that a
> > > hallucinatory gun could not be destroyed by DBR. This is my
> opinion.
> > > While it may not (and most probably won't with rules makers like we
> > > have in place)be an accepted method of play, I think it needs to be
> > > discussed. Besides, most players like to know the reasoning behind
> the
> > > rules.
> >
> > In this case: card text.
> >
> Card Text? HR says return to Library. And yes DBR says this burns the
> gun.
The DBR text is the text to which Scott refers. It burns the weapon because
it says "Burn the gun after the card is used".
Since this argument is apparently causing confusion, I will attempt an
anology to help:
Consider the case where you rent something, say a car. When you drive the
rented car you create the illusion that you actually own the car. The car
functions exactly like the car would if you actually owned it.
Now if you destroyed the car (say in a car wreck) before you were through
renting the car, you will be unable to return it to the place you rented
it. Furthermore, you will be unable to rent that exact same car from the
dealership the next time you go to rent or buy a car.
The horrid reality "rents" the weapon from your deck. You haven't really
taken the time to equip the weapon, but it still works as if you had. If
you do something to the weapon (burn, break, steal) before the combat is
over you will be unable to put it back in your deck.
The whole thing is just a timing issue. If you're having troubles
separating the timing of the strike and the end of combat, consider what
would happen if the opposing minion played skin of steel and prevented the
strike.... The weapon would burn and the combat would continue.
> Like I said, I didn't for one brief moment believe that my
> opinion or others that were posted would be listened to or given any
> merit.
Are you reading this? I listened to your opinion and considered your
question. You obviously saw LSJ's reply, he read and responded to your
question. If the response was confusing, just say so. Some (I'd guess many)
of us read all the posts and do care about your opinion/questions... I
don't know where you got the impression that we didn't.
Rob Grau
rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu
James Coupe
> > Correct. It isn't.
Bingo.
> However, it is supposed to resemble the game.
> Isn't it?
In the same way that Rage resembles Werewolf, perhaps. Or the same way
Spellfire represents AD&D.
Terms, ideas and so forth were taken, adapted and used. They no longer
are the RPG. The Ravnos still work. The Tremere Antitribu are still
around. they didn't just suddenly disappear.
> I won't bother to answer your obviously rhetorical
> question. When you play the cards you lay them on the table.
Most people do, since it's easiest. In a few cases, I might just play it
straight into the ash-heap, though clearly flag it up for
people. (Something highly transient, like Ascendance, would rank for
playing straight into the ash-heap, where it works *now*. Something like
Fake Out wouldn't, because I have to kee ptrack of what range we're at.)
> At least
> in our group we lay them out as they happen. Therefore, I lay out the
> Horrid Reality. Then I find the weapon and place that on the HR.
> Lastly I would lay the DBR on top of that. Then, combat is over I
> would pick up the cards and start discarding.
Ah... no. This is where your problem comes from.
When the strike with the DBR resolves, the gun burns. There and then. No
waiting around for anything else. It sends it into the ash-heap now.
This might or might not turn out to be a big problem. If you're just
having combat ending anyway, it doesn't really make a whole lot of
difference. However, if a vampire is diablerised in combat it
does. Let's say we do the following:
1) Kostantin goes into combat with your copy of Gitane St Clair
2) I play Horrid Reality and go and fetch a .44 Magnum.
3) I maneuver to long range and shoot with the .44 Magnum
4) Gitane plays Body Flare
5) I play Dragon's Breath Rounds
-- Strikes resolve here -- Burn the gun --
6) Gitane play's Skin of Rock twice (preventing all 4 of my damage)
Currently, I'm going to torpor. So Gitane plays Amaranth. Oh yeah, she
was also clan impersonated to Gangrel Antitribu and stop the blood hunt
with Gangrel Conspiracy. ;)
But as a result of the diablerie, she can steal my equipment. Except my
gun (which as far as V:TES is concerned is as real as any other) has gone
anyway. So she can't.
Timing issues aren't often that big a deal. But when they do come up,,
you need to follow what happens as it happens.
> Since HR states to
> return the gun to my Library I would. Only makes sense that a
> hallucinatory gun could not be destroyed by DBR.
If the gun wasn't destroyed by DBR, the other vampire would be given a
chance to see through the illusion and take no damage, were I your
Storyteller. Any damage done would be solely shock based.
> This is my opinion.
> While it may not (and most probably won't with rules makers like we
> have in place)be an accepted method of play, I think it needs to be
> discussed.
You're advocating playing the RPG. This isn't the RPG. Horrid Reality
*in V:TES* uses real cards, real guns, real Ivory Bows and real Sengir
Daggers. Were it to be wanted, the card would have been worded something
like:
"Go through your library and find the first piece of equipment in
it. This vampire may, for the rest of combat, act as though they
possessed that piece of equipment."
Look at the inferior, too. It goes into the ash-heap, not into the
Library. It's shown
> Besides, most players like to know the reasoning behind the
> rules. Not that we agree with all of them but at least then we
> understand the concept behind it. I voice my opinion you voice yours.
> LSJ seems to think a lot like you
Both LSJ and I are rules-lawyers, to different degrees. He is official, I
am not.
Sometimes, we think alike. Sometimes, we do not. Sometimes, the rules
are ambiguous, sometimes they are not. In cases where the rules are there
> but then again there are some that
> think like me. Am I right? Maybe. Are you right? Possible. I see
> no reason for DBR to over-rule HR.
There are two ways of looking at it:
1) Horrid Reality, when combat ends, tries to send the card back into the
library. However, as it is in the ash heap, Horrid Reality's effect
cannot reach it. All cards *unless they state otherwise* must affect a
card which is in play - controlled and uncontested.
2) Horrid Reality places an effect on the gun. When combat ends,, the gun
will go back into the library. However, *all* effects are forgotten when
a card enters the ash-heap. When, say, my copy of Carlotta Giovanni
enters the ash-heap, she forgets that you ever played Bonecraft, Disarm,
Seeds of Corruption and Fleshcraft on me. If I Possession her back, she
comes back as good as new. This extends to *all* effects. The gun is
already in the ash-heap. The effect has been ended.
> LSJ will most probably rule with
> you as seems to always be the case.
Not at all. I have on a number of occasions very vociferously disagreed
with LSJ, either on the group or in private e-mail. I strongly disagree
with the current ruling on Terror Frenzy. I am dis-satisfied with the
lengths to which Life Boon has been neutered.
If there is a legitimate rules query which allows an argument to be had, I
will have it. I will quite happily try and force the rules to try and be
consistent so far as is possible, and will argue over the finer points of
pretty much any card in the game, should a situation warrant it. Thing
is, in V:TES, I argue about *this* game, not another one. I occassionally
used "real world" concerns as memory aids for people - they don't actually
force the rules to go like that, though. I remember getting very, very
confused by the handling of aggravated damage between V:TES and V:tM (I
started on V:TES before V:tM).
James Coupe
> HR.
The effect "fizzles" at that point, because the card cannot be reached.
> It would seem that the discipline cards would be more inclined to
> over-rule the the non-discipline cards.
So far as the rules are concerned they are both cards, and the latter
effect takes precedence.
James Coupe
> 1. If a minion does Strike: Destroy equipment Do I burn the card then?
Yes, when the strikes resolve.
From a "real life" perspective, if that didn't happen, I'd just see
through your illusion anyway.
> 2. If a minion does Strike: Steal equipment first strike then blur do
> I take damage from an illusion that I created?
No, unless you press. You cannot use stolen equipment on the round you
steal it.
In V:TES, you fetched a card and put it in play. I stole control of
it. Matter ends. It doesn't matter a damn *how* you fetched it, merely
that you did.
> By your reasoning the answer to both would be yes. And that just
> doesn't hold water.
It holds plenty of water. This is a card game, not any form of V:TM based
real life.
James Coupe
> at Superior do I ash heap the WPG or do I return it to my Library?
Ash-heap it. It burns when the strike resolves. This is before the end
of combat, when Horrid Reality would act.
James Coupe
> do you burn it and at superior you return it to the library?
Because you did not get it via an "equip" action, or via an
"equip" effect, which required you to pay for it. Check the card text.
> If it
> really existed then you are talking about Disguised or concealed
> weapon.
No, I'm talking about Horrid Reality, because that is the card in
question.
> Don't start me on the later because for the record I agree
> with Mr Eichler.
Oh - fire and forget comments. Quick, I'm allowed to make a statement,
and you're not allowed to respond! Hurrah. If you don't want an argument
dear, don't state your opinion.
The Rules Team has stated a preference for not bolstering weak
cards. Bolstering weak cards is an endless cycle, because as soon as you
bolster the weakest card, another one becomes the weakest card.
James Coupe
The card is no longer around to return to the library. DBR burned it, and
HR does not have wording allow it to reach into the ash-heap, which it
would need a la Whispers from the Dead.
ceci...@my-deja.com
> > that the gun never existed and as I go to place my cards in the ash
the
> > Library. No need (or reason I might add)to burn it. Why would you
> > deny some one the use of the weapon later because an illusion of the
> > gun burned?
As I mentioned in another thread ravnos_shadow and I are just trying to
develope a greater understanding of the game. All we really want to
know is what was the idea behind this card. The people who developed
this game had specific ideas behind each card and how they fit into the
game as a whole. But, I see the "card" is not important just what it
does. So I see our Friday night card games will go something like this:
Player A: My vamp plays this card at pre-range.
Player B: So what does the card say you do?
Player A: Who cares... My vamp has the skill and the card lets me do
what I want so who cares about what the card says except how it fits
into the mechanics of timing and effects
Player B: Oh, your right.
We might as a well throw away the art work on the card, any store line
behind the cards, or concepts of the card as part of some greater whole
called the "Game". To me that takes away the fun of playing a game like
VTES/Jyhad.
Well ravnos_shadow and I will go on asking questions, but we will try
to not make too many waves. But will you all take time out and try look
at this game from a novice's view point, and realize that aside from
this news group and what comes with the starter deck there is very
little available. So us newcomers are going to ask and pick at your
brains trying to understand what the heck these cards are about and
where they fit into the greater concept called V:TES/Jyhad. Because
that is the game I play, not a generic card game with no artwork or
storyline.
Paul Cecil
rfg...@my-deja.com
ceci...@my-deja.com wrote:
> As I mentioned in another thread ravnos_shadow and I are just trying
> to develope a greater understanding of the game.
That's why most people ask questions. :)
> All we really want to
> know is what was the idea behind this card.
I don't think this point was clear to everyone. People tried to answer
"Why does the gun burn with DBR?" because that seemed to be the
question.
If you haven't read it elsewhere, the idea is that you borrow a weapon
from your library and use it.
> The people who developed
> this game had specific ideas behind each card and how they fit into
> the game as a whole.
From my perspective, the idea was to make weapons more useful.
> But, I see the "card" is not important just what it
> does. So I see our Friday night card games will go something like
this:
The card is important, but the story behind the card doesn't have
bearing on the rules text that comes printed on the the card. The idea
is to match these up so the game is fun and the cards are memorable (by
making sense) but if there is a conflict between real world logic and
rules text, the rules win *every time* That is why people say "don't
bother with real world logic" and LSJ called [earlier] it a "soft
foundation"
>
> We might as a well throw away the art work on the card, any store line
> behind the cards, or concepts of the card as part of some greater
whole
> called the "Game". To me that takes away the fun of playing a game
like
> VTES/Jyhad.
Concepts are important. This is related to what I just said.
>
> Well ravnos_shadow and I will go on asking questions, but we will try
> to not make too many waves.
Please continue to ask questions. Don't worry about the "waves" if you
have something meaningful to say or ask, people will listen.
> But will you all take time out and try look
> at this game from a novice's view point, and realize that aside from
> this news group and what comes with the starter deck there is very
> little available.
Certainly. As long as you're willing to consider our point of view.
We've probably heard your question before, so there may be a lot of what
you perceive as "LSJ ruling in your favor" because it is not a you
versus me situation, but just explaining the rules. If you start to get
the same answers again and again like this thread, perhaps it isn't that
we don't want to answer your question but we think we are answering your
question, and you might need to ask it differently. For instance, "Why
does the HR weapon burn with DBR?" is not equal to "What is the purpose
of HR in the VTES card set?"
And actually, we've tried to put a lot of resources out on the 'net.
Check out WW's V:TES page http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/ along with
their stuff they've got links to some of the more useful resources out
there.
> So us newcomers are going to ask and pick at your
> brains trying to understand what the heck these cards are about and
> where they fit into the greater concept called V:TES/Jyhad. Because
> that is the game I play, not a generic card game with no artwork or
> storyline.
Please do. It wouldn't hurt if you looked at the newsgroup archive or
FAQ as well. If you stick around long enough you'll see that we enjoy
the story and concept behind V:TES, too. It shows up in Clan
newsletters, Deck ideas, and other posts like Matt Green's recent
Vampire Noir posting.
Rob Grau
rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu
steven...@my-deja.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> DBR "wins out" here because it burns the weapon before Horrid Reality
> can return it to the library - simple timing. Once in the ash heap,
> the card cannot be affected by general effects - the effect must
>
> --
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
OK, this raises another question. I think I know the answer, but I'd
like confirmation. I use HR at (inferior or supior) and get an Ivory
Bow. But what if there is already another Ivory Bow in play?
Following the above logic, here's my understanding of what happens:
1) The Bows immediately contest.
2) After strike resolution, HR tries to put the IB in the (ash heap
or library), but since it is out of play, that effect fizzles.
3) If the owner of the other IB subsequently yields, I'd get to keep
the IB that I got with the HR.
Is this correct?
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > DBR "wins out" here because it burns the weapon before Horrid
> > Reality
> > can return it to the library - simple timing. Once in the ash heap,
> > the card cannot be affected by general effects - the effect must
> > explicitly state that cards in the ash heap are affected.
>
> like confirmation. I use HR at (inferior or supior) and get an Ivory
> Bow. But what if there is already another Ivory Bow in play?
>
> Following the above logic, here's my understanding of what happens:
>
> 1) The Bows immediately contest.
> 2) After strike resolution, HR tries to put the IB in the (ash heap
> or library), but since it is out of play, that effect fizzles.
> 3) If the owner of the other IB subsequently yields, I'd get to keep
> the IB that I got with the HR.
>
> Is this correct?
Hm. The current official answer is that the Bow is contested, but
that the contested illusionary Bow is burned (or returned to the
library) at the end of combat (and the other then becomes
uncontested at the "controller's" next untap phase).
[TOM 12-DEC-1995].
But that's inconsistent with the handling of the burned-in-combat
weapon case (at least as I've been explaining it), as you note.
Both rulings seemed logical enough at the time (and up until now).
I'll put this on the list for RT review.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
ravnos...@my-deja.com
ravnos...@my-deja.com
>
> Are you reading this? I listened to your opinion and considered your
> question. You obviously saw LSJ's reply, he read and responded to your
> question. If the response was confusing, just say so. Some (I'd guess
many)
> of us read all the posts and do care about your opinion/questions... I
> don't know where you got the impression that we didn't.
>
> Rob Grau
> rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu
>
>
read and listen. I was and still am not confused. I understood all
their points. I did not agree with them. My comments on the opinions
and questions were directed more at someone else. Don't care to start
that though. Timing is an important part. I guess I am more inclined
to believe that the creators of the game wanted it to be more like the
RPG than say a lot of other people and LSJ. But, like I said, this
will not change my enjoyment of the game. Sorry if I soap boxed.
Didn't mean it that way.
ravnos...@my-deja.com
actually the best response I had ever read from you. And this is the
resposnse I was looking for. I didn't think that every question had to
be an attack and counter attack. I appreciate the answer. I still
have problems saying the weapon is real but that is "my problem". I
look forward to the RT ruling on the HR Ivory bow be contested. Argue
with you more later.
James Coupe
<a whole lot of stuff that I had already written - the entire quote was
not necessary, and some people are on dial-up modems, rather than free
access of whatever type>
> be an attack and counter attack. I appreciate the answer. I still
> have problems saying the weapon is real but that is "my problem".
Why? What, *in V:TES*, makes the card illusory? If you're having
problems with it, just call it something else.
There are *huge* numbers of points on which the card game and the RPG
vary:
Why does Cloak the Gathering give me +1 stealth? If a vampire has
superior Auspex, why can't they see through all my inferior obfuscate
cards? (Higher level of Auspex beating lower level of Obfuscate.)
Why does 1 point of aggravated damage, when I still have lots of blood
send me to torpor?
Why does pulling the fangs of a Giovanni stop them from hunting? Couldn't
they just go and slit the throat of one of their family of retainers?
Why does Dominate get me +x bleed? All it does is allow me to influence
people. Are we to assume that all vampires with Dominate know people in
high positions? The Giovanni and the Ventrue probably do, but the
Malkavians? They could just as easily be trying to Dominate a puppet.
Why, if I steal a piece of equipment,
Why does Skin of Steel only stop attacks from strikes? Wouldn't steel
skin stop birds just as easily as a sword?
Why does Possession allow me to ressurect vampires who have suffered final
death?
Why does Realm of the Black Sun only allow me to steal your resources
during your master phase? Wouldn't it work just as nicely on an Art Scam
resource as on one I get from a Short Term Investment?
Why woudl a vampire know how to use a Laptop Computer, especially given
that some of the older ones don't know *anything* about IT?
It goes on.
Ignore V:tM. This is V:TES.
> I
> look forward to the RT ruling on the HR Ivory bow be contested. Argue
Which may, of course, retain the current ruling.
Were I to be submitting a piece to LSJ, who would presumably allow the
Rules Team to look at it, it would probably read:
# Horrid Reality is a card that is clearly intended to allow equipment to
# take a far more functional role in the game, and it seems clear that the
# Ravnos were also supposed to be able to play about with equipment.
# However, it also seems clear to me that the intent of Horrid Reality,
# based on its card text, is to make the card solely transient. It
# entering the ash-heap, or burning, seems consistent with not wanting the
# card to stick around in play. As such, I would be tempted to rule that,
# on original intent of the card, the ruling from TOM should stand.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"I know my ex-boyfriend lies. Oh, he does it every time. It's just his
permanent disguise, yeah, yeah, but he's drop dead gorgeous."