Traps and canceled presses question
Gomi no Sensei
During the press step, if any Methuselah has played a card earlier in
the current round or during the two previous rounds, the Trap automatically
provides a press to continue (either combatant can press to end).
Relentless Pursuit
[pot] Press.
[POT] Press, and if another round of combat starts, your hand size is two
cards larger for the remainder of combat.
This came up last week:
Vampire A fights Vampire B. A Trap is played. A Sewer Lid is thrown by
Vampire A, at superior. Vampire A wants to play Relentless Pursuit.
Vampire B's controller points out that a Trap is in play, already
providing a press to continue. Vampire A attempts to cancel
the neutral Trap press with the Sewer Lid's optional press, then press
to continue with Relentless Pursuit (and gain the benefit
thereby). Arguments result.
Is this 'canceling your own press'?
I was uninvolved in the combat, and my impression was that the
Sewer Lid press was canceling the Trap press (which doesn't belong
to anyone), thus allowing either combatant to play presses.
While it certainly 'felt' wrong to let one minion play a press to
end, then continue, combat, the Trap-press' neutrality kind of
knocked me for a loop, reasoning-wise -- it's like the
Sewer-lid press is operating on two presses at once (the existing
Trap press and the _in potentia_ Relentless Pursuit press). I
couldn't clearly articulate the 'why' behind the gut feeling
of 'yeah, that shouldn't be'.
help?
gomi
--
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts
Frederick Scott
> This came up last week:
>
> Vampire A fights Vampire B. A Trap is played. A Sewer Lid is thrown by
> Vampire A, at superior. Vampire A wants to play Relentless Pursuit.
> Vampire B's controller points out that a Trap is in play, already
> providing a press to continue. Vampire A attempts to cancel
> the neutral Trap press with the Sewer Lid's optional press, then press
> to continue with Relentless Pursuit (and gain the benefit
> thereby). Arguments result.
>
> Is this 'canceling your own press'?
>
> I was uninvolved in the combat, and my impression was that the
> Sewer Lid press was canceling the Trap press (which doesn't belong
> to anyone), thus allowing either combatant to play presses.
The actual rule reads, "A minion cannot play two presses in a row (as
they would effectively cancel each other)." Effectively, Vampire A
playing two presses in a row would do just that, no matter how you may
want to reason about which press canceled which press. The spirit of
the parenthetical text in the rule appears as if it's intended to point
out that after playing two presses in a row, you wind up back where you
started - and that's never legal. And the act _clearly_ violates the
letter of the non-parenthetical text.
Fred
LSJ
> During the press step, if any Methuselah has played a card earlier in
> the current round or during the two previous rounds, the Trap automatically
> provides a press to continue (either combatant can press to end).
>
> Relentless Pursuit
>
> [pot] Press.
> [POT] Press, and if another round of combat starts, your hand size is two
> cards larger for the remainder of combat.
>
> This came up last week:
>
> Vampire A fights Vampire B. A Trap is played. A Sewer Lid is thrown by
> Vampire A, at superior. Vampire A wants to play Relentless Pursuit.
> Vampire B's controller points out that a Trap is in play, already
> providing a press to continue. Vampire A attempts to cancel
> the neutral Trap press with the Sewer Lid's optional press, then press
> to continue with Relentless Pursuit (and gain the benefit
> thereby). Arguments result.
>
> Is this 'canceling your own press'?
No.
It is legal.
> I was uninvolved in the combat, and my impression was that the
> Sewer Lid press was canceling the Trap press (which doesn't belong
> to anyone), thus allowing either combatant to play presses.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Reyda
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C480B79...@white-wolf.com...
> > Vampire A fights Vampire B. A Trap is played. A Sewer Lid is thrown by
> > Vampire A, at superior. Vampire A wants to play Relentless Pursuit.
> > Vampire B's controller points out that a Trap is in play, already
> > providing a press to continue. Vampire A attempts to cancel
> > the neutral Trap press with the Sewer Lid's optional press, then press
> > to continue with Relentless Pursuit (and gain the benefit
> > thereby). Arguments result.
> >
> > Is this 'canceling your own press'?
>
> No.
> It is legal.
>
> > I was uninvolved in the combat, and my impression was that the
> > Sewer Lid press was canceling the Trap press (which doesn't belong
> > to anyone), thus allowing either combatant to play presses.
>
> Correct.
Is there a problem in pressing twice ? If i play IG + mighty grapple, i have
two optionnal presses, right ? i can still play relentless pursuit, i guess
?
reyda
James Coupe
This appears to contradict [6.4.4]'s direct stating "A minion cannot
play two presses in a row".
--
James Coupe "Never give in to them," she whispered. "No matter what
PGP 0x5D623D5D EB they do or how important you feel it is to get their accep-
D690ECD7A1FB457CA21 tance. Never kill part of yourself for them. Because other
3D7E668C3695D623D5D people will notice that part is missing before you do."
LSJ
>
> In message <3C480B79...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes:
> >> Is this 'canceling your own press'?
> >
> >No.
> >It is legal.
>
> This appears to contradict [6.4.4]'s direct stating "A minion cannot
> play two presses in a row".
I misread the question. I though it was going for the old "two traps"
angle (by which a minion can effectively press twice "in a row" to end).
You are correct. You cannot follow your own press to end with a press to
continue.
My apologies for the confusion.
LSJ
> >
> > No.
> > It is legal.
> >
> > > I was uninvolved in the combat, and my impression was that the
> > > Sewer Lid press was canceling the Trap press (which doesn't belong
> > > to anyone), thus allowing either combatant to play presses.
> >
> > Correct.
>
> Is there a problem in pressing twice ? If i play IG + mighty grapple, i have
> two optionnal presses, right ? i can still play relentless pursuit, i guess
Sorry. You cannot cancel your own press. My answer above is incorrect.
Reyda
> Reyda wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > > > Is this 'canceling your own press'?
> > >
> > > No.
> > > It is legal.
> > >
> > > > I was uninvolved in the combat, and my impression was that the
> > > > Sewer Lid press was canceling the Trap press (which doesn't belong
> > > > to anyone), thus allowing either combatant to play presses.
> > >
> > > Correct.
> >
> > Is there a problem in pressing twice ? If i play IG + mighty grapple, i
have
> > two optionnal presses, right ? i can still play relentless pursuit, i
guess
>
> Sorry. You cannot cancel your own press. My answer above is incorrect.
no problem =) there's so much rules and rulings...
By the way, is the press form trap coming "from" the minion who played it ??
Think about a trap-rushing fighter who eats a inferior Terror Frenzy... Can
he use the press from trap ? or is this press not used by anyone, sort of
environmental ?
reyda
LSJ
> By the way, is the press form trap coming "from" the minion who played it ??
No.
> Think about a trap-rushing fighter who eats a inferior Terror Frenzy... Can
> he use the press from trap ? or is this press not used by anyone, sort of
> environmental ?
Environmental.
James Coupe
writes:
>By the way, is the press form trap coming "from" the minion who played it ??
Nope. It just happens out of thin air.
So the minion who played the Trap *can* press to end to cancel the Trap
press.
And limitations on playing presses don't affect Trap's press.
Orpheus
??
>
> Nope. It just happens out of thin air.
lol. O Mighty Antediluvians...
> So the minion who played the Trap
Hum, sorry, but didn't you just contradict yourself ? Is it "the minion", or
"the player" who played the trap ?
James Coupe
writes:
>> So the minion who played the Trap
>
>Hum, sorry, but didn't you just contradict yourself ? Is it "the minion", or
>"the player" who played the trap ?
The minion plays the Trap - it being a minion card and all.
Trap then creates some presses out of thin air.
Santiago
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>Reyda wrote:
>> Is there a problem in pressing twice ? If i play IG + mighty grapple, i have
>> two optionnal presses, right ? i can still play relentless pursuit, i guess
>
>Sorry. You cannot cancel your own press. My answer above is incorrect.
But, if he played the mighty grapple at superior, he has two
optional presses. I was under the impression that you can still get
presses/maneuvers from other sources no matter how many optional ones
you have pending. This is not a case of canceling my own presses, it's
a case of choosing to use Relentless Pursuit for a press even though I
could use either of the two optional ones. On a side note, due to
potential interactions, I if I have multiple optional presses or
maneuvers and use one, I should declare which one I'm using, correct?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Ceci n'est pas un 'sig block'."
LSJ
>
> In article <3C48239F...@white-wolf.com>,
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> >Reyda wrote:
> >> Is there a problem in pressing twice ? If i play IG + mighty grapple, i have
> >> two optionnal presses, right ? i can still play relentless pursuit, i guess
> >
> >Sorry. You cannot cancel your own press. My answer above is incorrect.
>
> But, if he played the mighty grapple at superior, he has two
> optional presses. I was under the impression that you can still get
> presses/maneuvers from other sources no matter how many optional ones
> you have pending. This is not a case of canceling my own presses, it's
Correct.
> a case of choosing to use Relentless Pursuit for a press even though I
> could use either of the two optional ones. On a side note, due to
Sure.
> potential interactions, I if I have multiple optional presses or
> maneuvers and use one, I should declare which one I'm using, correct?
Sure.
salem christ
>Gomi no Sensei wrote:
>> During the press step, if any Methuselah has played a card earlier in
>> the current round or during the two previous rounds, the Trap automatically
>> provides a press to continue (either combatant can press to end).
>>
>> Relentless Pursuit
>>
>> [pot] Press.
>> [POT] Press, and if another round of combat starts, your hand size is two
>> cards larger for the remainder of combat.
>>
>> This came up last week:
>>
>> Vampire A, at superior. Vampire A wants to play Relentless Pursuit.
>> Vampire B's controller points out that a Trap is in play, already
>> providing a press to continue. Vampire A attempts to cancel
>> the neutral Trap press with the Sewer Lid's optional press, then press
>> to continue with Relentless Pursuit (and gain the benefit
>> thereby). Arguments result.
>>
>
>No.
>It is legal.
could Vampire A have used a press to continue without cancelling the trap's
press?
as the trap's press would occur sometime in the press phase, would the
acting
methuselah be able to order when it occurs (like with the dagon's call
damage)
and thus be able to slip their own other press in there before there is even
one to continue?
or, are you allowed to add a press to continue to another press to continue,
as long as the first press to continue was "environmental"?
and lastly, can you play a Save Face if there is already a press to
continue?
thanks,
salem.
LSJ
> could Vampire A have used a press to continue without cancelling the trap's
> press?
No. Can't press to continue if the combat is already continuing. (cf
pressing to end when the combat is already ending).
> as the trap's press would occur sometime in the press phase, would the
> acting
> methuselah be able to order when it occurs (like with the dagon's call
> damage)
> and thus be able to slip their own other press in there before there is even
> one to continue?
No.
> or, are you allowed to add a press to continue to another press to continue,
> as long as the first press to continue was "environmental"?
No.
> and lastly, can you play a Save Face if there is already a press to
> continue?
No.
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes:
>salem christ wrote:
>> could Vampire A have used a press to continue without cancelling the trap's
>> press?
>
>No. Can't press to continue if the combat is already continuing. (cf
>pressing to end when the combat is already ending).
During the Press step, when does the press to continue from Trap
actually appear?
Is this like Weather Control, which happens simply "before range", and
so can be ordered by the acting Methuselah to whenever she likes? Or is
it automatically there at the start of the Press step?
LSJ
>
> In message <3C4D4BBE...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes:
> >salem christ wrote:
> >> could Vampire A have used a press to continue without cancelling the trap's
> >> press?
> >
> >No. Can't press to continue if the combat is already continuing. (cf
> >pressing to end when the combat is already ending).
>
> During the Press step, when does the press to continue from Trap
> actually appear?
>
> Is this like Weather Control, which happens simply "before range", and
> so can be ordered by the acting Methuselah to whenever she likes? Or is
> it automatically there at the start of the Press step?
The latter.
Tom, Mad & Co
Of course you can, both presses, from mighty grapple and from immortal
grapple, are optional preses. You can avoid using them and thus gain a
press playing relentless pursuit. You still keep 2 optional preses to
continue this round if opposing minion plays any press to cancel
yours.
Tom, Mad & Co