LSJ ? - Wormwood and Orun In Play, What Happens
Rehlow
play who is printed as being a 8 capacity vampire. Previously I played
2 Orun cards on it. My predator calls Ancient Influence. The vote
passes and I choose my Laibon. What does Ancient Influence treat its
capacity as? We thought that Wormwood would first treat its capacity as
4 and then the two Orun would raise the capacity by 4, and Ancient
Influence would "see" it as 8 capacity.
This didn't actually come up, but I was playing a Gehenna deck that got
Wormwood to 4 counters and was ousted by an Ancient Influence while at
1 pool.
Relevant card text below. Thanks.
Later,
~Rehlow
Wormwood
Gehenna.
Do not replace until your next discard phase. Requires at least one
other Gehenna card in play. Put 10 counters on this card. Burn 1
counter whenever another Gehenna card is put in play. A vampire whose
capacity is greater than X is treated as if his or her capacity is X
(minimum of 1), where X is the number of counters on this card.
Orun
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a Laibon. For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs
other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have
2 additional capacity. A Laibon gets an additional vote for every three
Orun he or she has. If this Laibon successfully bleeds for more than 2
or successfully performs a (D) action against a non-mortal minion, he
or she burns one Orun. Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and
Aye than his or her capacity.
Ancient Influence
Worth 1 vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth.
Successful referendum means each Methuselah may choose a ready vampire
he or she controls. Each Methuselah gains an amount of pool from the
blood bank equal to his or her chosen vampire's capacity. Each
Methuselah also burns 5 pool. Only one Ancient Influence can be played
in a game.
firstco...@aol.com
> Let's say Wormwood is in play with 4 counters on it. I have a Laibon in
> play who is printed as being a 8 capacity vampire. Previously I played
> 2 Orun cards on it. My predator calls Ancient Influence. The vote
> passes and I choose my Laibon. What does Ancient Influence treat its
> capacity as? We thought that Wormwood would first treat its capacity as
> 4 and then the two Orun would raise the capacity by 4, and Ancient
> Influence would "see" it as 8 capacity.
I'd guess you're right.
> A vampire whose
> capacity is greater than X is treated as if his or her capacity is X
> (minimum of 1), where X is the number of counters on this card.
So, Wormwood makes your capacity 4. (Wormwood doesn't affect how other
cards view your capacity, though.)
> Put this card on a Laibon. For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs
> other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have
> 2 additional capacity.
So, for Ancient Influence, you are considered to have a higher
capacity. If it said you HAVE more capacity, I imagine Wormwood would
screw with it, but you don't have higher capacity--you're simply
affected as though you do.
Probably like the Mata Hari rulings.
-- Brian
LSJ
> Rehlow wrote:
>>Let's say Wormwood is in play with 4 counters on it. I have a Laibon in
>>play who is printed as being a 8 capacity vampire. Previously I played
>>2 Orun cards on it. My predator calls Ancient Influence. The vote
>>passes and I choose my Laibon. What does Ancient Influence treat its
>>capacity as? We thought that Wormwood would first treat its capacity as
>>4 and then the two Orun would raise the capacity by 4, and Ancient
>>Influence would "see" it as 8 capacity.
>
> I'd guess you're right.
Correct.
>>A vampire whose
>>capacity is greater than X is treated as if his or her capacity is X
>>(minimum of 1), where X is the number of counters on this card.
>
> So, Wormwood makes your capacity 4. (Wormwood doesn't affect how other
> cards view your capacity, though.)
>
>>Put this card on a Laibon. For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs
>>other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have
>>2 additional capacity.
>
> So, for Ancient Influence, you are considered to have a higher
> capacity. If it said you HAVE more capacity, I imagine Wormwood would
> screw with it, but you don't have higher capacity--you're simply
> affected as though you do.
>
> Probably like the Mata Hari rulings.
Right.
--
That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet.
Keep a little and let a little come back to me.
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
CthuluKitty
this seems really wonky, is if this cominbation of cards can actually
raise or lower your capacity in certain bizarre situations. Say your
vampire is capacity 6 with 3 Oruns. Another player's Wormwood would
then see that vampire as capacity 12, and by card text the vampire
would then have its capacity reset to the number of counters on
Wormwood, whether that's lower or higher. Seems very odd, but possibly
consistent with cardtext. LSJ, what's your ruling on this?
LSJ
Wormwood isn't inspecting the vampire's capacity. It just limits it.
Chris Berger
LSJ wrote:
> CthuluKitty wrote:
> > This is indeed a curious interaction. One thing I wonder about, and
> > this seems really wonky, is if this cominbation of cards can actually
> > raise or lower your capacity in certain bizarre situations. Say your
> > vampire is capacity 6 with 3 Oruns. Another player's Wormwood would
> > then see that vampire as capacity 12, and by card text the vampire
> > would then have its capacity reset to the number of counters on
> > Wormwood, whether that's lower or higher. Seems very odd, but possibly
> > consistent with cardtext. LSJ, what's your ruling on this?
>
> Wormwood isn't inspecting the vampire's capacity. It just limits it.
>
greater than X? Even if it doesn't, Orun doesn't care if the card is
"inspecting his capacity." A card played by another methuselah simply
treats the vampire as if he were 2 cap higher. So a Wormwood with 8
counters will treat a 6 cap vampire with 2 Oruns as if he were a 10
cap, right? And if he were a 10 cap, it would cause him to be treated
in all respects as an 8 cap. Of course, then the Oruns would raise his
capacity to 12 for the effects of other cards...
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
>
>>CthuluKitty wrote:
>>
>>>This is indeed a curious interaction. One thing I wonder about, and
>>>this seems really wonky, is if this cominbation of cards can actually
>>>raise or lower your capacity in certain bizarre situations. Say your
>>>vampire is capacity 6 with 3 Oruns. Another player's Wormwood would
>>>then see that vampire as capacity 12, and by card text the vampire
>>>would then have its capacity reset to the number of counters on
>>>Wormwood, whether that's lower or higher. Seems very odd, but possibly
>>>consistent with cardtext. LSJ, what's your ruling on this?
>>
>>Wormwood isn't inspecting the vampire's capacity. It just limits it.
>
> Umm... doesn't Wormwood check to see if the vampire's capacity is
> greater than X?
"A vampire whose capacity is greater than X is treated as if his or her capacity
is X (minimum of 1), where X is the number of counters on this card."
> Even if it doesn't, Orun doesn't care if the card is
> "inspecting his capacity." A card played by another methuselah simply
> treats the vampire as if he were 2 cap higher. So a Wormwood with 8
> counters will treat a 6 cap vampire with 2 Oruns as if he were a 10
> cap, right? And if he were a 10 cap, it would cause him to be treated
> in all respects as an 8 cap. Of course, then the Oruns would raise his
> capacity to 12 for the effects of other cards...
You might have a line for everything up until "Of course, then the...".
There's nothing to give a double-count to Orun.
Baseline (to avoid paradoxes and loop-backs and other problems):
Wormwood snags the vampire's actual capacity and clamps it to X.
Orun will add to that X (or to the vampire's real capacity if it
is less than X) for cards played by other players.
Jeroen Rombouts
"LSJ" <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> schreef in bericht
news:6KMkf.10012$wf....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> Baseline (to avoid paradoxes and loop-backs and other problems):
> Wormwood snags the vampire's actual capacity and clamps it to X.
> Orun will add to that X (or to the vampire's real capacity if it
> is less than X) for cards played by other players.
>
I get the clarification. The only thing I wonder: why does Wormwood's
effect go first?
John Flournoy
Two reasons:
1) "to avoid paradoxes and loop-backs and other problems" as LSJ said.
2) Because Wormwood's effect is a continuous effect already in play
before and after any card is played that would qualify to trigger Orun.
-John Flournoy
Chris Berger
LSJ wrote:
> Chris Berger wrote:
>
> > Even if it doesn't, Orun doesn't care if the card is
> > "inspecting his capacity." A card played by another methuselah simply
> > treats the vampire as if he were 2 cap higher. So a Wormwood with 8
> > counters will treat a 6 cap vampire with 2 Oruns as if he were a 10
> > cap, right? And if he were a 10 cap, it would cause him to be treated
> > in all respects as an 8 cap. Of course, then the Oruns would raise his
> > capacity to 12 for the effects of other cards...
>
> You might have a line for everything up until "Of course, then the...".
> There's nothing to give a double-count to Orun.
>
for continuous effects in play. The Wormwood sees the vampire with
Orun on it as a 10 cap and raises his capacity to 8 for all effects.
Then when another methuselah plays *another* card, it sees this 8 cap
vampire with 2 Oruns on it... It seems like it works perfectly
logically, without the need for issuing errata to Wormwood (which I
assume is what you're doing to make it work the other way?).
andrea....@infinito.it
Why?
the way i see it: I play something that interacts with capacity, he is
a 6 capacity so wormwood at 8 does not kicks in, 2 orun will bring him
to 10...
Isn't that more "natural"?
Andrea
Chris Berger
andrea....@infinito.it wrote:
>
> Why?
> the way i see it: I play something that interacts with capacity, he is
> a 6 capacity so wormwood at 8 does not kicks in, 2 orun will bring him
> to 10...
> Isn't that more "natural"?
>
methuselah. Suddenly Orun doesn't apply to it? It's a continuous
effect that sees a vampire with >X capacity and sets his capacity to X.
So, then should we be given a list of which cards played by other
methuselahs Orun applies to and which it doesn't?
Will Orun not apply to Signet of King Saul? What about Games of
Instinct?
John Flournoy
The original question was about your own Wormwood and other cards
played. The question raised isn't about what happens when someone else
plays Wormwood.
(How Orun interacts directly with Wormwood is kinda irrelevant: My
6-cap has an Orun. A Wormwood played by somebody else with 6 or more
counters, no matter how many Oruns I have, still won't reduce my
capacity to less than 6. A less-than-6-counter Wormwood still sees me
as bigger than it's limit no matter how many Oruns I have, and reduces
me accordingly. My own Wormwood doesn't ever see my Oruns and doesn't
directly affect that.)
The relevant question occurs when I have my own Wormwood in play, and
my vampire has an Orun on it: what capacity do cards - other than
Wormwood or Orun - played by other Methuselahs see me as? The limit set
by Wormwood, or that limit+the bonus granted by my Orun?
For instance, if I'm an 8-cap with 4 Oruns on me, and I have Wormwood
in play with 7 counters on it, can I block somebody else's minion with
the Signet or not?
LSJ's answer previously in this thread would indicate that the Signet
would see me as a 7-cap with a bunch of Oruns and disable me from
blocking.
In other words, Wormwood does not prevent Orun from increasing your
effective capacity, it just alters the baseline capacity prior to
Orun's effect, for all cards played by other Methuselahs. No particular
errata needed.
-John Flournoy
LSJ
> The question in that case is... Wormwood is a card played by another
> methuselah. Suddenly Orun doesn't apply to it? It's a continuous
> effect that sees a vampire with >X capacity and sets his capacity to X.
If it did that, then capacity would not be restored when Wormwood
leaves play.
It has been ruled otherwise (capacity is reset when Wormwood leaves
play).
With that ruling, the current ruling on Wormwood with respect to Orun
follows.
CthuluKitty
> played. The question raised isn't about what happens when someone else
> plays Wormwood.
Umm, sorry, but that's totally wrong. Read the question again.
Obviously, your own Wormwood won't notice Oruns on your vampires.
Noone would bother asking that question.
> (How Orun interacts directly with Wormwood is kinda irrelevant: My
> 6-cap has an Orun. A Wormwood played by somebody else with 6 or more
> counters, no matter how many Oruns I have, still won't reduce my
> capacity to less than 6. A less-than-6-counter Wormwood still sees me
> as bigger than it's limit no matter how many Oruns I have, and reduces
> me accordingly. My own Wormwood doesn't ever see my Oruns and doesn't
> directly affect that.)
Given LSJ's ruling this is correct. This doesn't naturally flow out of
card text however. By text, Wormwood should see Oruns since it checks
the vampire's capacity.
> In other words, Wormwood does not prevent Orun from increasing your
> effective capacity, it just alters the baseline capacity prior to
> Orun's effect, for all cards played by other Methuselahs. No particular
> errata needed.
That was never the question. The question was, in a nutshell: Does
Wormwood see Oruns when it (effectively) resets capacity? LSJ's ruling
has been a no, and I'm fine with that. However, this is not a natural
reading of the card text, and errata does in fact need to be issued to
clarify it.
CthuluKitty
I'm not following you at all here. How does Wormwood leaving play
enter this question at all? Can you explain this more clearly?
CthuluKitty
> > played. The question raised isn't about what happens when someone else
> > plays Wormwood.
>
> Umm, sorry, but that's totally wrong. Read the question again.
> Obviously, your own Wormwood won't notice Oruns on your vampires.
> Noone would bother asking that question.
Correcting/clarifying myself: Rehlow's original question did not
specify whose Wormwood was under discussion. The question I asked,
which seems to be the controversial one, did in fact specify that
Wormwood is controlled by another player.
John Flournoy
CthuluKitty wrote:
> > The original question was about your own Wormwood and other cards
> > played. The question raised isn't about what happens when someone else
> > plays Wormwood.
>
> Umm, sorry, but that's totally wrong. Read the question again.
> Obviously, your own Wormwood won't notice Oruns on your vampires.
> Noone would bother asking that question.
You're right; I didn't notice the jumping in questions from Rehlow's to
yours.
Here's another odd scenario that could occur if Wormwood DID see Oruns:
You play Wormwood, with 10 counters.
My 5-cap vampire has 5 Oruns on him.
If Wormwood sees the Oruns, my vampire is RAISED to a 10-cap per
Wormwood's text, because Wormwood is changing it from (seen-as) 15-cap
to ("X=") 10 cap.
Which would be, uh, very odd. So it's another good reason for Wormwood
to affect the base capacity, not the modified capacity with Oruns.
-John Flournoy
Rehlow
CthuluKitty wrote:
> > The original question was about your own Wormwood and other cards
> > played. The question raised isn't about what happens when someone else
> > plays Wormwood.
>
> Umm, sorry, but that's totally wrong. Read the question again.
> Obviously, your own Wormwood won't notice Oruns on your vampires.
> Noone would bother asking that question.
>
It wasn't very clear in the original question, because it doesn't
matter who controls the Wormwood. I don't care between an opponent's
Wormwood and Orun which "wins" because at the end of the day, it
doesn't matter what Wormwood *considers* your capacity to be. What
matters is what a 3rd card (and this has to be played by another
Methuselah otherwise the Orun part is moot) *considers* the capacity of
a vampire when both Wormwood and Orun are in play.
> > (How Orun interacts directly with Wormwood is kinda irrelevant: My
> > 6-cap has an Orun. A Wormwood played by somebody else with 6 or more
> > counters, no matter how many Oruns I have, still won't reduce my
> > capacity to less than 6. A less-than-6-counter Wormwood still sees me
> > as bigger than it's limit no matter how many Oruns I have, and reduces
> > me accordingly. My own Wormwood doesn't ever see my Oruns and doesn't
> > directly affect that.)
>
Exactly. If (and a big IF) Wormwood said something like burn a vampire
with capacity greater than X, then it would matter, but the big fight
between the Wormwood card and the Orun card doesn't matter, because you
don't really do anything within Wormwood and Orun, you do something
with a 3rd card.
> Given LSJ's ruling this is correct. This doesn't naturally flow out of
> card text however. By text, Wormwood should see Oruns since it checks
> the vampire's capacity.
>
> > In other words, Wormwood does not prevent Orun from increasing your
> > effective capacity, it just alters the baseline capacity prior to
> > Orun's effect, for all cards played by other Methuselahs. No particular
> > errata needed.
>
Actually it was. The question boiled down to, when some other
Methuselah plays Ancient Influence do I do
1) vampire capacity + Orun bonus(es) and then if >X set capacity to X
(Wormwood)
OR
2) If vampire capacity >X set capacity to X (Wormwood) and then + Orun
bonus(es) to X.
And #2 is correct, and LSJ has previously said why.
> That was never the question. The question was, in a nutshell: Does
> Wormwood see Oruns when it (effectively) resets capacity? LSJ's ruling
> has been a no, and I'm fine with that. However, this is not a natural
> reading of the card text, and errata does in fact need to be issued to
> clarify it.
I think this reasoning is trying to get #1 as the correct answer, but
#2 is correct.
Its kinda like how a Merged Kemintiri can call Ventrue Justicar, name
herself Justicar, play Closed Session, and then not be able to cast her
3 votes in the referendum. You have to take each card individually. I
hope I got that example right or else I just added a whole additional
layer of confusion. (Ventrue Justicar sees Merged Kemi as Ventrue while
playing it, so for the effect of VJ you can name her. Closed Session
sees MK as a Camarilla when she plays it, but the referendum "knows"
that MK is Independent and cannot vote). OK, I just thought of a better
example ... Merged Kemintiri can play Parity Shift while The Fall of
the Camarilla is in play. That's closer to the same lines of Wormwood,
Orun, other Methuselah's Ancient Influence.
Later,
~Rehlow
Rehlow
Rehlow wrote:
> CthuluKitty wrote:
>
> Actually it was. The question boiled down to, when some other
> Methuselah plays Ancient Influence do I do
>
> 1) vampire capacity + Orun bonus(es) and then if >X set capacity to X
> (Wormwood)
>
> OR
>
> 2) If vampire capacity >X set capacity to X (Wormwood) and then + Orun
> bonus(es) to X.
>
> And #2 is correct, and LSJ has previously said why.
>
> > That was never the question.
"Actually it was" is supposed to be an answer to "That was never the
question." I got my posting wrong. Sorry for the confusion.
Chris Berger
Yeah, I didn't follow this at all either. Obviously Wormwood leaving
play would cease to effect capacity. Don't have any idea how anything
above follows from *that*. But then, there are certain rulings
questions, which, from my point of view, LSJ doesn't seem to make any
sense from start to finish (c.f. Blood Brother Ambush/Left for Dead),
and I think I'm making a resolution starting from this point to simply
move on and not get dragged down into a long debate, especially when
those rulings are for practically meaningless situations which will
probably never effect a game that I'm a part of.
ira...@gmail.com
> play would cease to effect capacity. Don't have any idea how anything
> above follows from *that*. But then, there are certain rulings
> questions, which, from my point of view, LSJ doesn't seem to make any
> sense from start to finish (c.f. Blood Brother Ambush/Left for Dead),
> and I think I'm making a resolution starting from this point to simply
> move on and not get dragged down into a long debate, especially when
> those rulings are for practically meaningless situations which will
> probably never effect a game that I'm a part of.
I feel qualified to respond to this post, since I've also struggled
with the issue of how much to press LSJ for an answer that I can
understand. It's fairly easy to present a specific case and get an
answer; it's often harder to understand the reasons behind the ruling,
which is important to be a good judge. If you understand the reasons
behind the rules, you can make good decisions when something comes up
at a game. Then again, simply memorizing all of the answers from LSJ
(without understanding the logic behind them) also works pretty well
from my experience.
I personally find it worthwhile to ask one (or maybe two, if I'm
feeling really pushy) follow-up questions to understand the reason
behind the ruling. After that, just try to accept it - maybe later
you'll understand. I know it's hard to let it go sometimes (I still
wonder sometimes why Mehemet's action is undirected, but a bounced
[obe] Spirit Marionette is directed. :))
Ira
LSJ
Sure:
If Wormwood simply rewrote each >X capacity vampire's capacity with
X capacity (and effect which would be "until the end of game", since
Wormwood doesn't specify), then the capacity-overriding effect which
had been laid on the vampire would continue even after Wormwood
leaves play.
But it doesn't.
Wormwood instead, then, must be intervening in how the vampire's
capacity is read as some sort of continuing while-in-play effect.
Just as Fall of the Camarilla doesn't clobber the minion's sect
and make the minion Independent, but rather is a continuing effect
that changes how each vampire's sect is read.
If some other card is played (say, Ancient Influence) that considers
the vampire to have two additional capacity, that card first must
observe the vampire's actual capacity (filtered through Wormwood
as needed) and then adds two.
Similar to how Mata Hari may play Sabbat-requiring cards even when
Fall of the Sabbat is in play.
Darth Una
> Just as Fall of the Camarilla doesn't clobber the minion's sect
> and make the minion Independent, but rather is a continuing effect
> that changes how each vampire's sect is read.
So does this mean that Stanislava can become an Anarch via cardless
action with a Fall of the Camarilla in play? Or does she still have
her "title card" which is only relevant once the Fall disappears?
Please advise LSJ ... :)
LSJ
> So does this mean that Stanislava can become an Anarch via cardless
> action with a Fall of the Camarilla in play? Or does she still have
> her "title card" which is only relevant once the Fall disappears?
Stanislava doesn't have a title card (unless she gains some other
title, like Prince of Brussels or whatever).
But either way, when she is without title (including the times
when any title she has is inert), so can become an anarch via
the cardless action.