Julio Martinez ability: LSJ?
Joshua Duffin
intercept when attempting to block a Camarilla vampire". Can this
ability be used more than once per action?
I am pretty sure that it can, by analogy to the wording of Maris
Streck's ability, but wanted to double-check.
Thanks in advance.
Josh
not that julio ever needed nine intercept against a camarilla vampire on
saturday
LSJ
> Julio Martinez has the special ability "Julio may burn a blood to get +1
> intercept when attempting to block a Camarilla vampire". Can this
> ability be used more than once per action?
>
> I am pretty sure that it can, by analogy to the wording of Maris
> Streck's ability, but wanted to double-check.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Reyda
> intercept when attempting to block a Camarilla vampire". Can this
> ability be used more than once per action?
>
> I am pretty sure that it can, by analogy to the wording of Maris
> Streck's ability, but wanted to double-check.
yes, you can burn as much blood as you like during the same action
(LSJ confirmed this at somepoint a longtime ago...)
Darby Keeney
> "Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> wrote in message news:2j5s1qF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Julio Martinez has the special ability "Julio may burn a blood to get +1
> > intercept when attempting to block a Camarilla vampire". Can this
> > ability be used more than once per action?
> >
> > I am pretty sure that it can, by analogy to the wording of Maris
> > Streck's ability, but wanted to double-check.
>
>
> Correct.
Wanting to be completely clear on the formulae.
1) During X, (this minion may) do Y. Limited to one Y per X.
Example: Quentin, Ellison, and many others.
2) If X, (this minion may) do Y. Limited to one Y per X.
Example: Greta Kircher
3) (This minion may) do Y. Unlimited.
Example: Maris Streck
- NRA EXCEPTION -
3a) When Y is an action, limited to one Y per turn.
Example: Kyoko Shinsegawa
4) (This minion) may do X when Y. Unlimited.
Example: Julio Martinez
- GRAMMATIC REVERSAL OF 4 -
4a) When X, (this minion) may do Y. Unlimited.
Example: Marthe Dizier
Hmmmm. That last one isn't quite as bad as Maris Strecks' constantly
useful ability - but she sure got elevated another notch on the
playability meter.
Darby
Joshua Duffin
"Darby Keeney" <dke...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40acdae.04061...@posting.google.com...
> Wanting to be completely clear on the formulae.
>
> 1) During X, (this minion may) do Y. Limited to one Y per X.
> Example: Quentin, Ellison, and many others.
Yes.
> 2) If X, (this minion may) do Y. Limited to one Y per X.
> Example: Greta Kircher
Actually, Greta is not a good example, and I don't know if there are
other examples where "If X, may do Y" is limited. Greta's correct text
is explicitly "once per action" (in the SW2 printing); it has apparently
been reprinted with the inaccurate SW1 text again in Black Hand (and
maybe even in later print runs of SW?) but is still once per action by
ruling.
> 3) (This minion may) do Y. Unlimited.
> Example: Maris Streck
Yes.
> - NRA EXCEPTION -
>
> 3a) When Y is an action, limited to one Y per turn.
> Example: Kyoko Shinsegawa
Right. Because of the "actions granted by a card in play" part of the
"no repeat actions" rule. Kyoko's not actually written "Kyoko may", but
I don't think it matters how an action-granting vampire ability is
written; they're all limited by NRA.
> 4) (This minion) may do X when Y. Unlimited.
> Example: Julio Martinez
Yes.
> - GRAMMATIC REVERSAL OF 4 -
>
> 4a) When X, (this minion) may do Y. Unlimited.
> Example: Marthe Dizier
Hmm. I hadn't thought of this before, but I think you're right, yes. I
wonder if that was the intent of Marthe Dizier's ability, though? "When
a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she
played during that combat -{from your ash heap}- to your hand." LSJ,
should this indeed be usable for as many combat cards Marthe played as
she wants to burn blood for?
It also seems to me like Henry Taylor's ability isn't written in a way
limited by the "during X do Y" template: "After an action, you may move
a combat card Henry played during that action from your ash heap to the
top of your library." Can you move as many combat cards Henry played as
you wish to the top of your library?
Josh
marthe would still be the scariest though...
"a card in the hand is worth two on the library"
Darby Keeney
"Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> wrote in message news:<2jbt0vF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > 2) If X, (this minion may) do Y. Limited to one Y per X.
> > Example: Greta Kircher
>
> Actually, Greta is not a good example, and I don't know if there are
> other examples where "If X, may do Y" is limited.
With regard to another example of "If X, do Y" where Y should not be
repeatable, try this. Husamettin burns a contracted vampire and gets
enough master cards to give him lots and lots of disciplines, in
superior.
"If Husamettin burns a vampire with a contract on him or her, you may
go through your library, get a Master: Discipline card, and place it
on him. Shuffle your library afterward. (Blood Cursed)"
Not as silly )or as in need of restriction) is.
Enid Blount ("If you already control Edith Blount and she is ready,
she may burn a blood to give Enid +1 stealth for the current action.")
Also, it seems that any deck with Sascha Advanced should probably
include a couple Rumors of Gehenna with which you can give the whole
table extra master phase actions. ("If Sascha is ready, you may draw a
card from your library whenever another Methuselah plays a master
card.")
Other instances of repeatable "Y" aren't too significant (IMO)
> Greta's correct text
> is explicitly "once per action" (in the SW2 printing); it has apparently
> been reprinted with the inaccurate SW1 text again in Black Hand (and
> maybe even in later print runs of SW?) but is still once per action by
> ruling.
I stand corrected on Greta. The WW web site preserves the wording
without "once per action," but I'll trust your word on the errata.
> > - GRAMMATIC REVERSAL OF 4 -
> >
> > 4a) When X, (this minion) may do Y. Unlimited.
> > Example: Marthe Dizier
>
> Hmm. I hadn't thought of this before, but I think you're right, yes. I
> wonder if that was the intent of Marthe Dizier's ability, though? "When
> a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she
> played during that combat -{from your ash heap}- to your hand." LSJ,
> should this indeed be usable for as many combat cards Marthe played as
> she wants to burn blood for?
>
> It also seems to me like Henry Taylor's ability isn't written in a way
> limited by the "during X do Y" template: "After an action, you may move
> a combat card Henry played during that action from your ash heap to the
> top of your library." Can you move as many combat cards Henry played as
> you wish to the top of your library?
>
Just today, I found another possibly strong "When X, do Y" repeating
format - through Esau ("When Esau declares a bleed action, he may burn
1 blood to flip a coin. If it's heads, Esau gets an additional +1
bleed for that action. +1 bleed").
Tusk (Adv) was given errata changing "When Tusk declares an action" to
"{During the declaration of Tusk's} action" to make it once per
action. Esau was never given that errata. To my thinking, that
implies that Esau can repeat his blood-for-bleed coin-flipping.
My math equates that to burning 2 blood for +1 bleed. So, he bleeds
without actions or modifiers for for 7 [1+(10/2)+1=7] when starting
full. Consistently, not quite as good as Spiridonas' 8 [1+(9-2)=8],
though Esau is a far more effective bleeder straight out of the box
(DOM, PRE, DEM, OBF instead of DOM pre). And, if lucky, the big E
might squeeze in a couple more +bleed.
I'm thinking I may have to build an Esau/Matthias "completely
irresponsible" magnum-bleed deck.
Laters.
Darby
"Can't block that 6-stealth, 9-point bounced bleed? Oh. Sorry about
that - must have stung a bit. At least Esau is easy to torporize
now."
Rogar
> Just today, I found another possibly strong "When X, do Y" repeating
> format - through Esau ("When Esau declares a bleed action, he may burn
> 1 blood to flip a coin. If it's heads, Esau gets an additional +1
> bleed for that action. +1 bleed").
>
> Tusk (Adv) was given errata changing "When Tusk declares an action" to
> "{During the declaration of Tusk's} action" to make it once per
> action. Esau was never given that errata. To my thinking, that
> implies that Esau can repeat his blood-for-bleed coin-flipping.
Hmm, I still don't understand why new cards aren't simply printed with
the word 'once' somewhere, in stead of mucking about with templates and
such. Saves a lot of explaining to newbies. :(
Rogar
Joshua Duffin
"Rogar" <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote in message
news:slrncd2qu1.249...@toad.stack.nl...
It's sometimes hard to write an ability without it either reading very
awkwardly or getting noticeably longer using the word "once". For
example, the "If" at the start of Husamettin's ability would have to be
something like "Once each time" (12 more characters). Still, I agree,
it is clearer, and usually would be a really good idea.
That said, the "during X do Y" template is so long established - and
will need to exist indefinitely anyway because so many older cards are
written that way, unless they were reprinted wholesale with new text -
that keeping that one around to use seems reasonable to me.
Josh
during a game of vtes, you may have fun
(but only once each game!)
Joshua Duffin
> > > 2) If X, (this minion may) do Y. Limited to one Y per X.
> With regard to another example of "If X, do Y" where Y should not be
> repeatable, try this. Husamettin burns a contracted vampire and gets
> enough master cards to give him lots and lots of disciplines, in
> superior.
>
> "If Husamettin burns a vampire with a contract on him or her, you may
> go through your library, get a Master: Discipline card, and place it
> on him. Shuffle your library afterward. (Blood Cursed)"
Whoof! Makes that ability kind of a lot cooler than I ever thought it
was. :-)
> Not as silly )or as in need of restriction) is.
>
> Enid Blount ("If you already control Edith Blount and she is ready,
> she may burn a blood to give Enid +1 stealth for the current action.")
Yeah, the Edith/Enid combination seems (IMO) like it would be pretty
hard to "break".
> Also, it seems that any deck with Sascha Advanced should probably
> include a couple Rumors of Gehenna with which you can give the whole
> table extra master phase actions. ("If Sascha is ready, you may draw a
> card from your library whenever another Methuselah plays a master
> card.")
I think Sascha Advanced's ability usually gets you about as much
card-drawing as you'd want even with each other Meth only able to play 1
master per turn. But yeah, you could maybe surpass Giotto
Verducci-level cycling if you pass out Rumors. :-)
> > Greta's correct text
> > is explicitly "once per action" (in the SW2 printing); it has
apparently
> > been reprinted with the inaccurate SW1 text again in Black Hand (and
> > maybe even in later print runs of SW?) but is still once per action
by
> > ruling.
>
> I stand corrected on Greta. The WW web site preserves the wording
> without "once per action," but I'll trust your word on the errata.
Sorry, I hope I didn't sound patronizing there. I just discovered last
month (Josh Feuerstein pointed it out) that Greta's reprint failed to
include her corrected card text. Because of that, the online card text
is correct as far as matching the most recent printing, but the ruling
in the errata/rulings/clarifications file [LSJ 14-Dec-2000] continues to
be necessary (as the "card text migration" claim that Greta's text was
fixed in the SW second printing doesn't do it on its own now).
> Just today, I found another possibly strong "When X, do Y" repeating
> format - through Esau ("When Esau declares a bleed action, he may burn
> 1 blood to flip a coin. If it's heads, Esau gets an additional +1
> bleed for that action. +1 bleed").
>
> Tusk (Adv) was given errata changing "When Tusk declares an action" to
> "{During the declaration of Tusk's} action" to make it once per
> action. Esau was never given that errata. To my thinking, that
> implies that Esau can repeat his blood-for-bleed coin-flipping.
Yes, I think you're right about that too. The ability probably is still
not overpowered relative to Spiridonas's, as you say, but could be more
disruptive, what with Esau having the [OBF] that Spiridonas doesn't.
Although if Spiridonas were created today, his ability would have to
cost 4 points for his capacity/points stats to work out, whereas Esau's
coin-flipping part only has to cost 0.5, heh.
> I'm thinking I may have to build an Esau/Matthias "completely
> irresponsible" magnum-bleed deck.
That could be amusing. You could even work it to a "less irresponsible"
level if you tack on a Revelations and/or Le Dinh Tho angle. :-)
Josh
was just cleaning my esau when it accidentally went off
LSJ
> "Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> wrote:
> > > 2) If X, (this minion may) do Y. Limited to one Y per X.
> > > Example: Greta Kircher
> >
> > Actually, Greta is not a good example, and I don't know if there are
> > other examples where "If X, may do Y" is limited.
>
> With regard to another example of "If X, do Y" where Y should not be
> repeatable, try this. Husamettin burns a contracted vampire and gets
> enough master cards to give him lots and lots of disciplines, in
> superior.
>
> "If Husamettin burns a vampire with a contract on him or her, you may
> go through your library, get a Master: Discipline card, and place it
> on him. Shuffle your library afterward. (Blood Cursed)"
>
> Not as silly )or as in need of restriction) is.
Just once.
When/If X happens, you can do Y implies once (for an instantaneous
event X).
When/If X is happening, you can do Y is ambiguous, and tends to mean
more than once (for X that are ongoing) (Greta matched that pattern,
and was errata'ed to be once).
While X is happening, you can do Y is clear (and means repition is
allowed).
I'll try to use "while" consistently for the duration-trigger effects
in the future.
The following all fall back on the above explanation (unless otherwise
noted):
> Enid Blount ("If you already control Edith Blount and she is ready,
> she may burn a blood to give Enid +1 stealth for the current action.")
Repeatable, since the X is a state of affairs, not an event.
> Also, it seems that any deck with Sascha Advanced should probably
> include a couple Rumors of Gehenna with which you can give the whole
> table extra master phase actions. ("If Sascha is ready, you may draw a
> card from your library whenever another Methuselah plays a master
> card.")
Sascha can draw only once per Master card played.
> > > 4a) When X, (this minion) may do Y. Unlimited.
> > > Example: Marthe Dizier
Marthe: Not repeatable.
> > It also seems to me like Henry Taylor's ability isn't written in a way
> > limited by the "during X do Y" template: "After an action, you may move
> > a combat card Henry played during that action from your ash heap to the
> > top of your library." Can you move as many combat cards Henry played as
> > you wish to the top of your library?
No. Just one.
> Just today, I found another possibly strong "When X, do Y" repeating
> format - through Esau ("When Esau declares a bleed action, he may burn
> 1 blood to flip a coin. If it's heads, Esau gets an additional +1
> bleed for that action. +1 bleed").
Not repeatable.
> Tusk (Adv) was given errata changing "When Tusk declares an action" to
> "{During the declaration of Tusk's} action" to make it once per
> action. Esau was never given that errata. To my thinking, that
> implies that Esau can repeat his blood-for-bleed coin-flipping.
Tusk would not need errata in light of the above explanation.
Darby Keeney
>> Sorry, I hope I didn't sound patronizing there.
No sweat, Josh. The tone wasn't concerning at all. In fact, I tried
to imply that (given the source) there was no need to google up
corroboration on the errata.
And LSJ's clarification of the working makes sense - and I'm happy
that he'll adopt the "while" formula for repeatable effects, and
"during," "after," and "when" for non-repeatable actions. Should help
to make things clearer and more consistent.
But we had fun trying to make Husamettin a BAD MAN ;)
Cheers.
Darby
I was playing with my Esau, but couldn't get it to go off.