LSJ: Blood Shield and Bamba
suolir...@gmail.com
Requires: Osebo
Type: Equipment
Cost: 2 pool
Unique Equipment.
The minion with this equipment may prevent 1 damage from an opposing
minion's strike each round. If used to prevent damage from a hand
strike made by a vampire with capacity 6 or less, that vampire burns 2
blood.
When exactly does the latter effect of Blood Shield burn blood? Is it
before a reacting vampire can play Skin of Steel?
If not, is it still before the heal damage-step?
----------
Bamba
Type: Action
Requires: non-sterile,capacity above 4 Laibon.
Cost: 1 blood
Requires a ready non-Sterile Laibon with capacity 4. +1 stealth
action.
Put this card in play; it becomes a 1-capacity non-unique Laibon of
the same clan and cannot act this turn. If the acting Laibon is a
magaji, you may search your library, hand *and* ash heap for a master:
Discipline card to play on this vampire (pay cost as normal) and you
may move 1 blood from that magaji to this Laibon.
If a magaji performs Bamba can I search my library, hand and ash heap
each for a Discipline card for a potential total of 3 Discipline
cards? By contrast, Waters of Duat and Trophy: Progeny use the wording
"library, hand *or* ash heap".
Thanks in advance.
John Flournoy
> Blood Shield
> Requires: Osebo
> Type: Equipment
> Cost: 2 pool
> Unique Equipment.
> The minion with this equipment may prevent 1 damage from an opposing
> minion's strike each round. If used to prevent damage from a hand
> strike made by a vampire with capacity 6 or less, that vampire burns 2
> blood.
>
> When exactly does the latter effect of Blood Shield burn blood? Is it
> before a reacting vampire can play Skin of Steel?
"If used to prevent damage from a hand strike" - thus during the
"Prevent Damage" part of damage resolution, i.e. in the same window as
playing Skin of Steel.
However, the blood is burnt at the point where Blood Shield is used to
prevent the damage; this is part of the resolution of Blood Shield and
thus will take place before the opposing minion can play a subsequent
prevent effect like Skin of Steel. It's not something that can be
interrupted halfway through resolving the text of Blood Shield; it
resolves in response to Blood Shield being played (and not cancelled.)
> If not, is it still before the heal damage-step?
Yes. Preventing damage is always before healing damage.
> ----------
>
> Bamba
> Type: Action
> Requires: non-sterile,capacity above 4 Laibon.
> Cost: 1 blood
> Requires a ready non-Sterile Laibon with capacity 4. +1 stealth
> action.
> Put this card in play; it becomes a 1-capacity non-unique Laibon of
> the same clan and cannot act this turn. If the acting Laibon is a
> magaji, you may search your library, hand *and* ash heap for a master:
> Discipline card to play on this vampire (pay cost as normal) and you
> may move 1 blood from that magaji to this Laibon.
>
> If a magaji performs Bamba can I search my library, hand and ash heap
> each for a Discipline card for a potential total of 3 Discipline
> cards? By contrast, Waters of Duat and Trophy: Progeny use the wording
> "library, hand *or* ash heap".
No; it doesn't say "for a master card from each", it says "for a
master card."
I believe they're meant to be functionally equivalent regardless of
whether it says "and" or "or" for where to search; saying "and" on
newer cards makes it clearer that you can search each of them instead
of mistakenly thinking that Progeny made you pick only one place to
look (for instance.) But LSJ can confirm this.
> Thanks in advance.
-John Flournoy
LSJ
> On May 27, 4:03 pm, suoliruse...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Blood Shield
>> Requires: Osebo
>> Type: Equipment
>> Cost: 2 pool
>> Unique Equipment.
>> The minion with this equipment may prevent 1 damage from an opposing
>> minion's strike each round. If used to prevent damage from a hand
>> strike made by a vampire with capacity 6 or less, that vampire burns 2
>> blood.
>>
>> When exactly does the latter effect of Blood Shield burn blood? Is it
>> before a reacting vampire can play Skin of Steel?
>
> "If used to prevent damage from a hand strike" - thus during the
> "Prevent Damage" part of damage resolution, i.e. in the same window as
> playing Skin of Steel.
>
> However, the blood is burnt at the point where Blood Shield is used to
> prevent the damage; this is part of the resolution of Blood Shield and
> thus will take place before the opposing minion can play a subsequent
> prevent effect like Skin of Steel. It's not something that can be
> interrupted halfway through resolving the text of Blood Shield; it
> resolves in response to Blood Shield being played (and not cancelled.)
>
>> If not, is it still before the heal damage-step?
>
> Yes. Preventing damage is always before healing damage.
Correct.
>> ----------
>>
>> Bamba
>> Type: Action
>> Requires: non-sterile,capacity above 4 Laibon.
>> Cost: 1 blood
>> Requires a ready non-Sterile Laibon with capacity 4. +1 stealth
>> action.
>> Put this card in play; it becomes a 1-capacity non-unique Laibon of
>> the same clan and cannot act this turn. If the acting Laibon is a
>> magaji, you may search your library, hand *and* ash heap for a master:
>> Discipline card to play on this vampire (pay cost as normal) and you
>> may move 1 blood from that magaji to this Laibon.
>>
>> If a magaji performs Bamba can I search my library, hand and ash heap
>> each for a Discipline card for a potential total of 3 Discipline
>> cards? By contrast, Waters of Duat and Trophy: Progeny use the wording
>> "library, hand *or* ash heap".
>
> No; it doesn't say "for a master card from each", it says "for a
> master card."
>
> I believe they're meant to be functionally equivalent regardless of
> whether it says "and" or "or" for where to search; saying "and" on
> newer cards makes it clearer that you can search each of them instead
> of mistakenly thinking that Progeny made you pick only one place to
> look (for instance.) But LSJ can confirm this.
Right.
The "or" text invited others to question whether one could look in the library
and, finding none, then be allowed to complete the search through the ash heap.
So "and" is used to avoid that nit. At the expense of this one, apparently. :-)
Kevin M.
> John Flournoy wrote:
"...you may search *either* your library, hand, *or* ash heap..." would
solve the problem completely, albeit add 7 more characters to all these
cards.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
The Name Forgotten
>
> >> I believe they're meant to be functionally equivalent regardless of
> >> whether it says "and" or "or" for where to search; saying "and" on
> >> newer cards makes it clearer that you can search each of them instead
> >> of mistakenly thinking that Progeny made you pick only one place to
> >> look (for instance.) But LSJ can confirm this.
>
> > Right.
>
> > The "or" text invited others to question whether one could look in the
> > library and, finding none, then be allowed to complete the search through
> > the ash heap.
>
> > So "and" is used to avoid that nit. At the expense of this one,
> > apparently. :-)
>
> "...you may search *either* your library, hand, *or* ash heap..." would
> solve the problem completely, albeit add 7 more characters to all these
> cards.
>
Actually it doesn't. It still leaves you with the 'can I only choose
one of them to search' problem. Maybe simplifying is better - say, "If
the acting Laibon is a magaji, you may play a Master:Discipline card
on this vampire (pay cost as normal) from your library, hand or ash-
heap and you may move 1 etc." It's the whole 'search' thing that seems
to get thing mixed up. Not sure if there is some reason why the search
term is included in this card (or similarly phrased ones).
LSJ
No, that would reinforce the idea that you couldn't search your ash heap after
searching your library.
"And" is exactly what is needed here. It can't mean draw three cards, as John
explains above, and can't mean that you're restricted to searching only one source.
LSJ
> It's the whole 'search' thing that seems
> to get thing mixed up. Not sure if there is some reason why the search
> term is included in this card (or similarly phrased ones).
It's there to indicate that you can look at the faces of the cards in your library.
Kevin M.
> Kevin M. wrote:
>> "...you may search *either* your library, hand, *or* ash heap..."
>> would solve the problem completely, albeit add 7 more characters to
>> all these cards.
>
> No, that would reinforce the idea that you couldn't search your ash
> heap after searching your library.
I'd think that "...you may search either your library, hand, or ash heap..."
could only be interpreted as "You may search either your libray or your
hand or your ash heap...". What else could the parsing of it mean?
D.J.
> LSJ wrote:
> > Kevin M. wrote:
> >> "...you may search *either* your library, hand, *or* ash heap..."
> >> would solve the problem completely, albeit add 7 more characters to
> >> all these cards.
>
> > No, that would reinforce the idea that you couldn't search your ash
> > heap after searching your library.
>
> I'd think that "...you may search either your library, hand, or ash heap..."
> could only be interpreted as "You may search either your libray or your
> hand or your ash heap...". What else could the parsing of it mean?
Nothing else. The problem is, you're intended to be allowed to search
all three if you need to. (Or if you forgot where whatever it is,
is.)
- D.J.
Kevin M.
Oh oh oh I see the problem. Ok, sure, I guess that could be a problem.
The Name Forgotten
A) I'd like to meet the idiot that wouldn't figure that one out when
you say 'play X card from your library', and figure out how the hell
he's managing to play this game in the first place.
B) Using the word 'search' doesn't actually indicate that you can look
at the faces of the cards in your library ***any more than*** using
the same indication that being able to play X card from your library
does. At least, I can't find anything in the rule-book that makes that
explicit (which I guess is why it's only indicated), although it could
be in there somewhere.
(In other words, 'search' could also mean, 'look at the back of the
cards in your library and select' in the same way that 'play X card
from your library' would lead you to that intuition.)
Search, in that respect, is only very, very mildly more clear in that
respect, and it does seem to lead to other confusing problems, such as
the one the OP made.
Dropping the whole search thing would only lead to confusion to a very
small minority of people who shouldn't be (and probably aren't)
playing this game anyway.
That being said, the practical value of actually changing the text on
the cards is far too cumbersome for the tiny amount of confusion that
the current text has.
LSJ
> On May 28, 12:32 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> The Name Forgotten wrote:
>>> It's the whole 'search' thing that seems
>>> to get thing mixed up. Not sure if there is some reason why the search
>>> term is included in this card (or similarly phrased ones).
>> It's there to indicate that you can look at the faces of the cards in your library.
>
> A) I'd like to meet the idiot that wouldn't figure that one out when
> you say 'play X card from your library', and figure out how the hell
> he's managing to play this game in the first place.
They don't have to be unable to figure it out to ask about it. :-)