"requires a ..."
Chris Berger
another one in combat." I assume that means you need a minimum of 2
ready blood brothers of the same circle in order to play the card.
That's not the question.
Octopod also says, "Can be used by a vampire even if he or she is not
involved in the current combat." Is this playable by the vampire who
*is* in combat as well (assuming you have another ready Blood Brother
of the same circle outside of combat)? It doesn't say "*only* usable
by a vampire who is not involved in the current combat", so I would
think the answer is yes.
The question is more generally about the "requires a..." template.
Does this phrase designate the minion who must play this card, or does
it simply designate that you must control a minion who fits these
restrictions in order to be able to play this card? For Octopod, I
would say that it simply designates what you must control, and you can
play the card with any vampire who has [san/SAN] (as long as you
control another brother of the same circle).
On the other hand... Fifth Tradition says "Requires a ready Prince or
Justicar...". I've always played this card (and pretty much all cards
prior to bloodlines that followed the same template) in such a way
that they had to actually be *played* by a Prince or Justicar. I
believe that's the way that those cards are supposed to be played.
Am I mistaken about Octopod, or am I mistaken about Fifth (and
similar), or is there a difference between the cards? Or if there
isn't a difference (template-wise), should there be? Logically
"requires a..." doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to me as "must
be played by a...", so I hope you can understand my confusion here.
GreySeer
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:5287ede4.02010...@posting.google.com...
> Octopod says "requires a ready Blood Brother of the same circle as
> another one in combat." I assume that means you need a minimum of 2
> ready blood brothers of the same circle in order to play the card.
> That's not the question.
>
> Octopod also says, "Can be used by a vampire even if he or she is not
> involved in the current combat." Is this playable by the vampire who
> *is* in combat as well (assuming you have another ready Blood Brother
> of the same circle outside of combat)? It doesn't say "*only* usable
> by a vampire who is not involved in the current combat", so I would
> think the answer is yes.
Yes. As you pointed out, becasue of the wording of the card, the vampire in
combat can play Octopod, you just need 2 of the same circle and one of those
has to be in combat.
> The question is more generally about the "requires a..." template.
> Does this phrase designate the minion who must play this card, or does
> it simply designate that you must control a minion who fits these
> restrictions in order to be able to play this card? For Octopod, I
> would say that it simply designates what you must control, and you can
> play the card with any vampire who has [san/SAN] (as long as you
> control another brother of the same circle).
A quick search on Google and I found this
GreySeer
try again.
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:5287ede4.02010...@posting.google.com...
> Octopod says "requires a ready Blood Brother of the same circle as
> another one in combat." I assume that means you need a minimum of 2
> ready blood brothers of the same circle in order to play the card.
> That's not the question.
>
> Octopod also says, "Can be used by a vampire even if he or she is not
> involved in the current combat." Is this playable by the vampire who
> *is* in combat as well (assuming you have another ready Blood Brother
> of the same circle outside of combat)? It doesn't say "*only* usable
> by a vampire who is not involved in the current combat", so I would
> think the answer is yes.
>
> The question is more generally about the "requires a..." template.
> Does this phrase designate the minion who must play this card, or does
> it simply designate that you must control a minion who fits these
> restrictions in order to be able to play this card? For Octopod, I
> would say that it simply designates what you must control, and you can
> play the card with any vampire who has [san/SAN] (as long as you
> control another brother of the same circle).
>
> On the other hand... Fifth Tradition says "Requires a ready Prince or
> Justicar...". I've always played this card (and pretty much all cards
> prior to bloodlines that followed the same template) in such a way
> that they had to actually be *played* by a Prince or Justicar. I
> believe that's the way that those cards are supposed to be played.
A quick search on Google and I found this ( which I knew before but I
thought I'd actually go find the ruling by LSJ )
> 4. Who can take an action to use cards that say "requires a ready prince
> or jusitcar"? If I have a "ready prince or justicar," shouldn't any of my
> minions be able to use it?
No. Just as an action that requires a ready Gangrel (e.g., Ritual Challenge)
can only be taken by ready Gangrel, an action that requires a ready prince
or justicar can only be taken by a ready prince or justicar.
> Am I mistaken about Octopod, or am I mistaken about Fifth (and
> similar), or is there a difference between the cards? Or if there
> isn't a difference (template-wise), should there be? Logically
> "requires a..." doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to me as "must
> be played by a...", so I hope you can understand my confusion here.
Given there is a ruling on "requires a..." I'd say that the minion not in
combat has to play Octopod, but the use of "can" as opposed to "only"
implies that the intent of the card is that either minion can play it. If
that is so I think it needs clarification or errata.
mostly harmless
GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
u333cbr...@news.supernews.com...
> > Am I mistaken about Octopod, or am I mistaken about Fifth (and
> > similar), or is there a difference between the cards? Or if there
> > isn't a difference (template-wise), should there be? Logically
> > "requires a..." doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to me as "must
> > be played by a...", so I hope you can understand my confusion here.
>
> Given there is a ruling on "requires a..." I'd say that the minion not in
> combat has to play Octopod, but the use of "can" as opposed to "only"
> implies that the intent of the card is that either minion can play it. If
> that is so I think it needs clarification or errata.
>
I think the sentence "Can be used by a vampire even if he or she is not
involved in the current combat." is just there as an overruling to make the
card playable, because Octopod is a combat card and per the standard rules
would not be playable by a minion who is not in combat. Without said
sentence the card would only be playable by a minion outside of combat
("requires a ready Blood Brother of the same circle as another one in
combat.") but that minion could not play it because he could not play combat
cards while not in combat.
Similar phrasings can be found on other cards, like for instance Contingency
Planning, to make a card playable. ("Master: out-of-turn. Only usable when a
minion you control is bleeding. *You may play this card during your turn.*
Burn a minion card that would change the target of the bleed as it is
played...")
M.
Imhotep
let's say I control a taped independant vampire and an untaped
camarilla (or sabat) vampire, and my predator bleeds me for one, can I
play banner of neutrality with the untaped non independant vampire?
LSJ
>
> Octopod says "requires a ready Blood Brother of the same circle as
> another one in combat." I assume that means you need a minimum of 2
> ready blood brothers of the same circle in order to play the card.
> That's not the question.
>
> Octopod also says, "Can be used by a vampire even if he or she is not
> involved in the current combat." Is this playable by the vampire who
> *is* in combat as well (assuming you have another ready Blood Brother
> of the same circle outside of combat)? It doesn't say "*only* usable
> by a vampire who is not involved in the current combat", so I would
> think the answer is yes.
Yes. Your BBr in combat can play it to aid the opposing BBr of the
same circle.
> The question is more generally about the "requires a..." template.
> Does this phrase designate the minion who must play this card, or does
> it simply designate that you must control a minion who fits these
> restrictions in order to be able to play this card? For Octopod, I
> would say that it simply designates what you must control, and you can
> play the card with any vampire who has [san/SAN] (as long as you
> control another brother of the same circle).
On minion cards, "requires a..." indicates a requirement that the
minion playing the card must meet. Just like the Sanguinus symbol
indicates that the minion playing it must have Sanguinus (and not
that you merely need to control a minion with Sanguinus).
> On the other hand... Fifth Tradition says "Requires a ready Prince or
> Justicar...". I've always played this card (and pretty much all cards
> prior to bloodlines that followed the same template) in such a way
> that they had to actually be *played* by a Prince or Justicar. I
> believe that's the way that those cards are supposed to be played.
Those are minion cards, so yes.
> Am I mistaken about Octopod, or am I mistaken about Fifth (and
Octopod.
> similar), or is there a difference between the cards? Or if there
> isn't a difference (template-wise), should there be? Logically
> "requires a..." doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to me as "must
> be played by a...", so I hope you can understand my confusion here.
It does. It's "requires a * to play it" not "requires a * to be played".
Like Disicpline symbols and Clan symbols on minion cards (which are
also requirements - a Sanguinus symbol could be replaced by the text
"Requires a vampire with Sanguinus").
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
No. He doesn't meet the requirement to play the card.
Sorrow
> > involved in the current combat." Is this playable by the vampire who
> > *is* in combat as well (assuming you have another ready Blood Brother
> > of the same circle outside of combat)? It doesn't say "*only* usable
> > by a vampire who is not involved in the current combat", so I would
> > think the answer is yes.
> Yes. Your BBr in combat can play it to aid the opposing BBr of the
> same circle.
So if Octopod is played by the BBr in combat, it cannot be used to give
the additional strikes to the BBr who played it? Only the opposing BBr
(of the same circle), if any?
Sorrow
---
If you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on,
you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made
your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you
from the earth.
LSJ
>
> > > Octopod also says, "Can be used by a vampire even if he or she is not
> > > involved in the current combat." Is this playable by the vampire who
> > > *is* in combat as well (assuming you have another ready Blood Brother
> > > of the same circle outside of combat)? It doesn't say "*only* usable
> > > by a vampire who is not involved in the current combat", so I would
> > > think the answer is yes.
> > Yes. Your BBr in combat can play it to aid the opposing BBr of the
> > same circle.
>
> So if Octopod is played by the BBr in combat, it cannot be used to give
> the additional strikes to the BBr who played it? Only the opposing BBr
> (of the same circle), if any?
Octopod gives the "another" Blood Brother (the one in combat), not the one who
played it, an additional strike each round. (card text).