[LSJ] Ensconced question
Tazar
Type: Action / Reaction
Requires: Visceratika
[vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. Put this card on a location and
untap this vampire. While this vampire is ready, his or her controller
may burn this card during a (D) action against this location to cause
the acting minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
unsuccessful).
[VIS] [REACTION] Play (and burn) during a (D) action against a
location as above.
question:
How does the superior version work?
1) Can I choose not to burn this card during (D) action when it's
played at superior ?
2) Does the vampire playing it at superior untap after playing it ?
orianice
>
> 1) Can I choose not to burn this card during (D) action when it's
> played at superior ?
> 2) Does the vampire playing it at superior untap after playing it ?
1) no - see (and burn)
2) no - but I don't think it taps in any way. I don't see any reason
for this.
Tazar
Case 2 is for playing it with tapped vampire by using Wake with
Evening Freshness for example.
LSJ
[Re: Ensconced]
Ensconced
Type: Action / Reaction
Requires: Visceratika
[vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. Put this card on a location and
untap this vampire. While this vampire is ready, his or her
controller
may burn this card during a (D) action against this location to cause
the acting minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
unsuccessful).
[VIS] [REACTION] Play (and burn) during a (D) action against a
location as above.
> > 1) Can I choose not to burn this card during (D) action when it's
Correct. Play and burn "during a (D) action against a location as
above". The "as above" way is: "burn this card during a (D) action
against this location to cause the acting minion to enter combat with
this vampire (the action is unsuccessful)."
The minion doesn't untap in either case. He only untaps when he puts
it in play as an action.
Salem
Card text says it untaps you. So you play it at superior with a tapped
gargoyle* using a wake, and he untaps and enters combat. and stays
untapped since he didn't block.
or play it with an already untapped gargoyle to untap him again
(redundantly) and enter combat.
*or anyone with VIS
Ensconced
Type: Action / Reaction
Requires: Visceratika
[vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. Put this card on a location and
untap this vampire. While this vampire is ready, his or her controller
may burn this card during a (D) action against this location to cause
the acting minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
unsuccessful).
[VIS] [REACTION] Play (and burn) during a (D) action against a
location as above.
--
salem
Salem
I can't see how you justify that. You play and burn 'as above'. how is
it played as above? "put this card on a location and untap this vampire".
--
salem
OldFan
> it played as above? "put this card on a location and untap this vampire".
>
> --
> salem
Probably because the inferior is an action, and the superior is a Re-
action?
To clarify what I mean - The "above" is broken down as:
1.) [vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (period - full stop)
2.) Put this card on a location and untap this vampire. (period -
full stop)
3.) While this vampire is ready, his or her controller may burn this
card during a (D) action against this location to cause the acting
minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
unsuccessful). (period - full stop)
The only way playing at superior and using the card as a reaction
works, is if we are using only the part that is NOT directly related
to the rules mechanics of how to play an Action card - i.e., the
reaction says "play and burn" as "above" refers to the 3rd sentence
(and ONLY the 3rd sentence/full-stop).
We don't untap for exactly the same reason that our reaction is NOT at
"+1 stealth". Because the untap (and +1 stealth) effect is part of
playing the card as an ACTION card, and not a REACTION card.
So NOW - when we play at superior "Gargoyle-istry", we get the benefit
of not telegraphing the move that we can a.) cancel someone trying to
steal the Rack or Powerbase Montreal, and b.) oh, look, you did me the
favor of rushing one of my vampires with VIS, pot, for. How nice for
me - how bad for you. :-)
As Legendre pointed out in a different thread - VTES is full of card
text and rulings that are not intuitive or counter to what we think
should happen. But at least in this case, I cannot fault LSJ or the
playtesters - this card tried to do something cool, and be as clear as
possible about it. Apparently not clear enough for some, but still, I
think I broke down the grammar/period-full stops well enough that you
can understand why LSJ has ruled "no untap when you play as a
reaction".
Personally, I am more than willing to give up the untap power to be
able to make my opponents at the table worry about getting into a
fight with my guy unexpectedly. :-)
-AC
Chris Berger
Yeah, after reading this card again, I'm with you. As above is "Put
this card on a location and untap this vampire. Blah, blah, blah,
burn to do things." Superior states that you must play it as above,
and also burn it. Seems like card text is pretty clear...
tobinator
So to be clear, if an untapped vamp plays this at VIS it doesn't tap
as a result, correct? After all, it didn't block (and therefore tap)
and didn't take an action, instead it is reacting in such a way that
results in fighting, a la Telepathic Counter and bleeding...
-tpl
Salem
>> I can't see how you justify that. You play and burn 'as above'. how is
>> it played as above? "put this card on a location and untap this vampire".
>>
>> --
>> salem
>
> Probably because the inferior is an action, and the superior is a Re-
> action?
>
> To clarify what I mean - The "above" is broken down as:
>
> 1.) [vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (period - full stop)
>
> 2.) Put this card on a location and untap this vampire. (period -
> full stop)
>
> 3.) While this vampire is ready, his or her controller may burn this
> card during a (D) action against this location to cause the acting
> minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
> unsuccessful). (period - full stop)
>
> The only way playing at superior and using the card as a reaction
> works, is if we are using only the part that is NOT directly related
> to the rules mechanics of how to play an Action card - i.e., the
> reaction says "play and burn" as "above" refers to the 3rd sentence
> (and ONLY the 3rd sentence/full-stop).
>
> We don't untap for exactly the same reason that our reaction is NOT at
> "+1 stealth". Because the untap (and +1 stealth) effect is part of
> playing the card as an ACTION card, and not a REACTION card.
So if we're playing it as a reaction, it never goes on a location? and
thus, why do we need to burn the card? and which location are we
defending against?
We need to include the sentence 2) above, so we know which location it's
giving us defense against, and so we can burn it (because otherwise
reaction cards are normally just played directly to the ash heap).
we don't get the +1 stealth action, obviously, because we are playing as
a reaction, and you can't be both a reaction and an action when you're
playing it. but that's the only part of 'as above' that could be
contradictory. the rest are all perfectly valid (and indeed, necessary)
effects for the playing of it as a reaction card.
> Personally, I am more than willing to give up the untap power to be
> able to make my opponents at the table worry about getting into a
> fight with my guy unexpectedly. :-)
sure, it's good enough without the untap. But it just doesn't follow
from card text.
--
salem
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > [Re: Ensconced]
> > Ensconced
> > Type: Action / Reaction
> > Requires: Visceratika
> > [vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. Put this card on a location and
> > untap this vampire. While this vampire is ready, his or her
> > controller
> > may burn this card during a (D) action against this location to cause
> > the acting minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
> > unsuccessful).
> > [VIS] [REACTION] Play (and burn) during a (D) action against a
> > location as above.
> > above". The "as above" way is: "burn this card during a (D) action
> > against this location to cause the acting minion to enter combat with
> > this vampire (the action is unsuccessful)."
> > The minion doesn't untap in either case. He only untaps when he puts
> > it in play as an action.
> I can't see how you justify that. You play and burn 'as above'. how is
> it played as above? "put this card on a location and untap this vampire".
You mean as a "+1 stealth action." ?
Clearly, it's not that. There's no stealth. No block attempts. No
successful action. No put into play.
It's just burned during a (D) action against *a* location at superior
as it is burned during a (D) action against *this* location at
inferior.
But of course, burning it at superior involves playing it as well.
Otherwise it would just say "[VIS] Burn during a (D) action
against ..." .
LSJ
> So to be clear, if an untapped vamp plays this at VIS it doesn't tap
> as a result, correct? After all, it didn't block (and therefore tap)
> and didn't take an action, instead it is reacting in such a way that
> results in fighting, a la Telepathic Counter and bleeding...
Right. No new action, no tapping to take the new action, no stealth,
no block attempts to thwart the Ensconced effect.
OldFan
Correct - as a reaction, you play it, and "use it up" / burn it at the
same time.
> and
> thus, why do we need to burn the card?
Not to be snarky, but the "(and burn)" is probably there SPECIFICALLY
because there would be some players (like you, Chris Berger, and
probably others) who would claim that playing the card at Superior
allows them to then put the card on the location in question, thereby
getting to use it AGAIN, probably citing the promo Salt of Thoth as a
precedent setting card.
By putting the (and burn) there is no question that the card, played
as a reaction, goes directly to the ash heap. Do not pass go, do not
get $200.
> and which location are we
> defending against?
Ahhh - that's the beauty of the card at superior. It can be ANY
location.
"Play (and burn) during a (D) action against ***A***
location as above."
Anytime some takes a (D) action at a location you control, you can
cancel the action and enter combat by playing this 1 reaction card -
and the other guy is STILL considered the acting minion!
> We need to include the sentence 2) above, so we know which location it's
> giving us defense against, and so we can burn it (because otherwise
> reaction cards are normally just played directly to the ash heap).
Um - no. The Superior text of "against *** A *** location " modifies
and overrides the text from the inferior Action.
The reaction card gives us cancel + fight against ANY location that
happens to be the target of a (D) action at the moment.
So NO - we do not need the 2nd sentence. Only the 3rd sentence, which
tells us what is really going on, is relevant to the superior Reaction
ability of the card.
> we don't get the +1 stealth action, obviously, because we are playing as
> a reaction, and you can't be both a reaction and an action when you're
> playing it. but that's the only part of 'as above' that could be
> contradictory. the rest are all perfectly valid (and indeed, necessary)
> effects for the playing of it as a reaction card.
Nope - the "put on a specific location and untap" is also over-ridden
by the superior reaction text of "A location"
> sure, it's good enough without the untap. But it just doesn't follow
> from card text.
>
> --
> salem
Not that what I say matters, since LSJ has given his input on this,
but I hope you can understand now that the card text as written Does
in fact support his clarification.
-AC
Tazar
instead of:
Ensconced
Type: Action / Reaction
Requires: Visceratika
[vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. Put this card on a location and
untap this vampire. While this vampire is ready, his or her controller
may burn this card during a (D) action against this location to cause
the acting minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
unsuccessful).
[VIS] [REACTION] Play (and burn) during a (D) action against a
location as above.
Like this:
Ensconced
Type: Action / Reaction
Requires: Visceratika
[vis] [ACTION] +1 stealth action. [b]If the action is succesfull [/b]
put this card on a location and
untap this vampire. While this vampire is ready, his or her controller
may burn this card during a (D) action against this location to cause
the acting minion to enter combat with this vampire (the action is
unsuccessful).
[VIS] [REACTION] Play (and burn) during a (D) action against a
location as above.
In this way it would be clear that untap part works only if you play
it as an action.
Anyway thanks all for input.
Salem
the [reaction] precludes the stealth and action part. Explicit
overriding text. But playing a reaction card doesn't preclude putting a
card in play. There's nothing there (or in precedents) to suggest that
playing a reaction card couldn't mean it gets put in play.
> It's just burned during a (D) action against *a* location at superior
> as it is burned during a (D) action against *this* location at
> inferior.
>
> But of course, burning it at superior involves playing it as well.
> Otherwise it would just say "[VIS] Burn during a (D) action
> against ..." .
>
I think I have worked out where my disconnect is. I am reading it as
"Play [as above] (and burn [as above]) during a D action against a
location [as above]".
That is, I am reading the 'as above' to apply to the whole proceeding
sentence, not just the 'during a D action' bit. And the way I am reading
it is a perfectly valid reading.
I think it could have been more clearly worded, but if it's being ruled
to only apply to the latter half of the sentence, I'll deal.
--
salem
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > It's just burned during a (D) action against *a* location at superior
> > as it is burned during a (D) action against *this* location at
> > inferior.
>
> "Play [as above] (and burn [as above]) during a D action against a
> location [as above]".
>
> That is, I am reading the 'as above' to apply to the whole proceeding
> sentence, not just the 'during a D action' bit.
Yeah, I get that. Getting that led to the reply above: that it can't
be played as the action above, but it instead is played and burned as
it is burned above. Played and burned during a (D) action as it is
burned during a (D) action above.
pispas
targeted with a (D) action?
I mean, it doesnt says that you have to own the location, right?
LSJ
> So, you can play [Ensconsed] at VIS at superior whenever any location is
> targeted with a (D) action?
>
> I mean, it doesnt says that you have to own the location, right?
Correct. Likewise, the inferior can be played on any location (you
don't have to control the location).
And once it's in play you don't have to control the location (or the
card) in order to activate it. (That's why the wording is a little
stilted: "his or her controller may" instead of "you may").
Blooded Sand
OOOOOOOOooooooooooooooohhh! Shenanigans ahoy!
My prey asks if he can borrow the Montreal cross table, CT says "Sure,
long as i can take it back."
"No problem. Arika fetches the PB:Montreal."
I can now play ensconsed at VIS to cancel the action, beat the
bejeesus out of Arika, and my gargoyle stays untapped?
Woooooooooooohooooooooo!
Cedric and Ublo likey!