The unnamed FTW, Byzar WTF
Malone
gain 2 pool and lose 1 blood. Homunculus and Uncle Cog to go again on
someone else's turn. Form of Mist can double as delivery mechanism
and combat defense. Not to mention the decks you could come up with
if you thought about it for more than the fifteen seconds I just
spent.
Byzar, on the other hand, looks unplayable to me. His main special is
worth 0 points, and +1 stealth is not great with his disciplines.
Aaron Clark
No, you would gain THREE pool (!).
Well, at least It doesn't have Fortitude like Its friend Nergal. Cold
comfort, I know.
Dasein
> On Dec 14, 7:29 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> > The unnamed looks too good. Legal Manip is prey loses 3 pool, you
> > gain 2 pool and lose 1 blood. Homunculus and Uncle Cog to go again on
> > someone else's turn. Form of Mist can double as delivery mechanism
> > and combat defense. Not to mention the decks you could come up with
> > if you thought about it for more than the fifteen seconds I just
> > spent.
>
> > Byzar, on the other hand, looks unplayable to me. His main special is
> > worth 0 points, and +1 stealth is not great with his disciplines.
>
> No, you would gain THREE pool (!).
And if you played that new action mod at OBF DAI, you would gain 4.
kekeke.
Aaron Clark
right?
Right?
(Oh Caine, save us all from The unnamed...)
Malone
> On Dec 14, 7:29 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> > The unnamed looks too good. Legal Manip is prey loses 3 pool, you
> > gain 2 pool and lose 1 blood. Homunculus and Uncle Cog to go again on
> > someone else's turn. Form of Mist can double as delivery mechanism
> > and combat defense. Not to mention the decks you could come up with
> > if you thought about it for more than the fifteen seconds I just
> > spent.
>
> > Byzar, on the other hand, looks unplayable to me. His main special is
> > worth 0 points, and +1 stealth is not great with his disciplines.
>
> No, you would gain THREE pool (!).
I was deducting one for the Infernal untap. But once you've got the
Homunculus you can pay that with blood, too. Giant's Blood and a few
Procurers to keep the engine running.
echia...@yahoo.com
The way I see it, Byzar's +1 stealth (normally worth 2 points) is his
main special. His other ability is just added gravy.
Compare him to Advanced Kemintiri, Porphyrion, Viktor The Night
General, Iniko The Black Lion, Appius Claudius Corvus, Aristotle de
Laurent, Harold Zettler, Spider-Killer, and Cyscek.
I'm guessing the inherent stealth will be most useful for his various
Necromancy actions. Might also be helpful in Harbinger vote decks.
Superior OBF lets him Veil the Legions. Sure, it doesn't scream to be
abused (like The unnamed), but it does offer some possibilities.
His burn counter ability could be quite strong in a Baltimore Purge
deck. His inherent stealth and OBF are useful for the Purge action
(normally at 0-stealth). You don't have to worry too much about
defending him in torpor (takes three successful tries to remove him
from the game and even then it doesn't count as a successful
diablerie). Or you can view his ability as allowing him to diablerize
twice without getting burned (and you still get the blood and
equipment from the diablerie victim). The permanent stealth and OBF
ensures you can succeed on the diablerie action too. I haven't seen
any Baltimore Purge decks in ages, but Enkil Cog could be a useful
addition (do the Purge during your predator's turn so people don't see
it coming).
My main gripe with Byzar is that the picture isn't really fitting for
an ancient Harbinger (they're supposed to be emaciated, rotting
corpses). No offense to Hugh. Reminds me to much of the "oh this
Nosferatu is just using Obfuscate to appear normal" excuse.
Dasein
Perfectionist would be a much better way to go than procurers. Doesn't
cost an action, can't be blocked, and if you have a Cog out, can give
multiple blood between your turns.
librarian
>
> The way I see it, Byzar's +1 stealth (normally worth 2 points) is his
> main special. His other ability is just added gravy.
>
> Compare him to Advanced Kemintiri, Porphyrion, Viktor The Night
> General, Iniko The Black Lion, Appius Claudius Corvus, Aristotle de
> Laurent, Harold Zettler, Spider-Killer, and Cyscek.
>
>
And advanced Yazid, you must be Raziel-baiting Eric...
best -
chris
Chris Berger
You misspelled "borderline broken". His main special is "creates a
new deck for Boris." Boris is famous for Clan Impersonating into
Baali a lot... you can probably work out the rest. =)
Even without Call the Great Beast craziness, he's still a 10 cap with
10 points of disciplines, +1 stealth which is worth 2 points, and a
burn special that's gotta be worth a point. At the very least, it's
two free diabs. I wouldn't underestimate having +1 stealth, even if
you don't see using his inferior dom or pre much. He's got FOR for
freak driving, and if you're using him for blocking, the +1 stealth is
actually really useful on tool-up actions when you don't wanna clog
your deck with stealth.
librarian
Agreed, Byzar looks underwhelming. Trying to think of uses.
Villein him down to 2; force of Will Bleed for +1bleed,
Elder Intervention, he burns, wait, he's in torpor. Dang,
you can't even turbo him.
Hmmm, but, he's Hugh!
Is unnamed going to join Ankou and Lucian the Perfect as the
monsters that weren't? Or is it really that good...
best -
chris
echia...@yahoo.com
Ha ha. Yeah, I was tempted to mention Yazid.
In fact, the main reason I responded to the post about Byzar was that
I had just recently made a similar post talking about lots of these
vampires with inherent +1 stealth. Most vampires with built-in stealth
are *good*. Don't know what people are complaining about.
The only exceptions I can think of are a handful of Nosferatu
(Lucretia Cess Queen, Harrod). If you want to complain about these
guys, I certainly understand! ;-)
Chris Berger
>
> Agreed, Byzar looks underwhelming. Trying to think of uses.
> Villein him down to 2; force of Will Bleed for +1bleed,
> Elder Intervention, he burns, wait, he's in torpor. Dang,
> you can't even turbo him.
>
> Hmmm, but, he's Hugh!
>
> Is unnamed going to join Ankou and Lucian the Perfect as the
> monsters that weren't? Or is it really that good...
>
I don't think The unnamed is going to be that crazy in real play.
He's infernal after all... But I'm not sure about calling Ankou and
Lucian "monsters that weren't." The Ankou is seriously the vampire I
dread seeing next to me more than any other (unless playing a location-
based deck, in which case Arika is still queen). He really makes it
impossible to play a lot of decks, and difficult to play most others.
And Lucian can still bleed for 13, so I wouldn't ignore him too
much... =)
librarian
If Harrod had built in stealth, he might actually be
playable. I think you mean Josef van Bauren?
Actually, Powerbleeding with Bazir might be a good move.
You can bleed for 5 easy with GovCon @+1s, and you don't
really have to worry about AI the first couple of times you
do it. He may not be terrible after all - you could even
Pulse him up. And since you can play Block Fails stuff with
OBF and nec, as well as -1i stuff, this means you can do it
semi-responsibly too. Hmmm, maybe he's a little more subtle.
The key of course is who is his supporting cast - the
Harbingers we haven't seen yet. Alcoan, La Viuda Blanca,
Mordechai Ben-Nun, Nicomedes.
best -
chris
Kevin M.
> The unnamed looks too good. Legal Manip is prey loses 3 pool,
> you gain 2 pool and lose 1 blood.
I'm sure some preys will be playing reduce, bounce, or intercept.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
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librarian
Yes, true about Lucian. Ankou draws lots of irrational
table hate, or at least did at the outset. He needs protection.
echia...@yahoo.com
> If Harrod had built in stealth, he might actually be
> playable. I think you mean Josef van Bauren?
>
> Actually, Powerbleeding with Bazir might be a good move.
> You can bleed for 5 easy with GovCon @+1s, and you don't
> really have to worry about AI the first couple of times you
> do it. He may not be terrible after all - you could even
> Pulse him up. And since you can play Block Fails stuff with
> OBF and nec, as well as -1i stuff, this means you can do it
> semi-responsibly too. Hmmm, maybe he's a little more subtle.
>
> The key of course is who is his supporting cast - the
> Harbingers we haven't seen yet. Alcoan, La Viuda Blanca,
> Mordechai Ben-Nun, Nicomedes.
Yeah, I meant Josef, not Harrod.
Now that you mention it, Byzar's anti-AI tech is quite strong.
He has inherent +1 stealth. You can get an additional permanent +1
stealth with the Erebus Mask. Maybe Blithe Acceptance if you want as
well.
Pulse gives him permanent +2 bleed. You can even give him Heart of the
City for another permanent +1 (or throw in equipment like Laptop or
bleed retainers since he has the Fortitude to spare the actions).
Between that and Govern + Conditioning, that's a lot of killer bleed
(OBF for Spying Missions to make sure people aren't ousted out of
turn). I think it's very unlikely that you'll see 3 Archon
Investigations in the same game.
_angst_
> Byzar, on the other hand, looks unplayable to me. His main special is
> worth 0 points, and +1 stealth is not great with his disciplines.
I think the main question Mr Angseesing needs to ask himself is how
come he still haven't learned superior dominate after all these years :
(
Petri Wessman
It's all that beer. Slows down them brain cells.
Demnogonis Saastuttaja
and Sense the Sin) goodness with Rötschreck intercept with the
Unnamed. And Homunculus, too. Not bad for an infernal minion.
There's a lot of sources of permanent intercept, not so with permanent
stealth, so I think permanent stealth is always a good ability. I have
found even Cyscek useful just as long as you remember that having OBF
VIC still doesn't mean you should play Soul Decoration.
What are those decks The Ankou stops, I'd sure like to know since I
have yet to benefit from his ability in any way? You can't hunt-bloat,
what else?
Brum
> The unnamed looks too good. Legal Manip is prey loses 3 pool, you
> gain 2 pool and lose 1 blood. Homunculus and Uncle Cog to go again on
> someone else's turn. Form of Mist can double as delivery mechanism
> and combat defense. Not to mention the decks you could come up with
> if you thought about it for more than the fifteen seconds I just
> spent.
>
The Unnamed does not have for/FOR, AUS or dom/DOM. In this game that
is a big habdicap for a vampire that big.
It will call the atention of people in the table and make it easier
for the cross table Jost Werner to get TW.
I think Bysar (Hugh's bizare?) is very solid. Great specials (both of
them).
Power bleeder that takes 3 Archon Investications to die and has +1
stealth.
With that discipline spread...
How come that's any less then awesome?
Tiago
PS: as always, the sky is not falling.
orianice
>
> I think Bysar (Hugh's bizare?) is very solid. Great specials (both of
> them).
> Power bleeder that takes 3 Archon Investications to die and has +1
> stealth.
> With that discipline spread...
> How come that's any less then awesome?
>
special, imho. immune to AI is also great ^^
Malone
> Malone wrote:
> > The unnamed looks too good. Legal Manip is prey loses 3 pool,
> > you gain 2 pool and lose 1 blood.
>
> I'm sure some preys will be playing reduce, bounce, or intercept.
>
Bounce still gets you the pool. Reduce 3 to 0 is not often seen, at
least by my eyes. Intercept is hardly a problem, with OBF PRO.
On another note, thanks to folks pointing out that Byzar gets three
strikes against AI before he's out. (And how many decks have 3x AI?)
He ain't so bad after all.
orianice
beast/ Powerbleed deck with him
^^
Brum
There is so much to do with this guy.
Don't forget 2 Strikes agains Diablerie.
And I'll say it first: he can block Caiaphas Smith. That's always a
plus. :D
Chris Berger
wrote:
>
> What are those decks The Ankou stops, I'd sure like to know since I
> have yet to benefit from his ability in any way? You can't hunt-bloat,
> what else?
>
Isn't that enough? It's not like I haven't sat next to Ankou with my
Rabbat/Tempatation deck twice! =(
Also, Hermanas suck against him. I mean, I almost always end up
having to hunt at least once per game, and with The Ankou on the
table, you can't do it without permission. It's just incredibly
annoying. It doesn't necessarily make the Ankou win, but if you're
his pred or prey and need to hunt (or forced to hunt by Vampiric
Disease, The Haunting, etc...), it makes you lose.
Johannes Walch
> On Dec 15, 3:29 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>> The unnamed looks too good. Legal Manip is prey loses 3 pool, you
>> gain 2 pool and lose 1 blood. Homunculus and Uncle Cog to go again on
>> someone else's turn. Form of Mist can double as delivery mechanism
>> and combat defense. Not to mention the decks you could come up with
>> if you thought about it for more than the fifteen seconds I just
>> spent.
>>
>
> The Unnamed does not have for/FOR, AUS or dom/DOM. In this game that
> is a big habdicap for a vampire that big.
> It will call the atention of people in the table and make it easier
> for the cross table Jost Werner to get TW.
You have to pay 1 pool per turn to even untap the guy. So if you bleed
once per turn you net gain 1 pool. So you got a 10-cap who gains you 1
per turn for successfully bleeding who can strike for 2R agg with no
bounce discipline and no votes. He has PRO which is nice, but no good
combination with other vamps and he has DAI which is great. So I would
say his special make him playable. Nowhere near to good, I�d take Anneke
over him any day.
brandonsantacruz
The Unnamed
Baali 10-cap
CEL DAI OBF PRE PRO can strike for 2r agg for 1 blood. Gain 2 pool if
the Unnamed bleeds successfully.
Say you get set up reasonably quickly with crypt acceleration, here
are some bleed tools at your disposal:
Presence bleed actions:
Legal Manipulations- bleed at +2 and gain a pool
Public Trust- Bleed at +2 and move a blood to your uncontrolled.
Propaganda- Bleed at +1, titled vampires can't block, tap one of their
minions.
Tricky bleed actions:
Fleetness- Bleed and untap if successful
Cat Burglary- Bleed any methuselah at +1 stealth for no more than 1
Precision- +1 stealth action to force your prey to discard a card from
their hand by name, could potentially make them lose a pool (discard a
Telepathic Misdirection or Deflection to prepare for a big bleed, or
an Archon Investigation).
Action Modifiers:
Faceless Night
Elder Impersonation
True Love's Face
other misc obf stealth
Aire of Elation
Psychomachia (more block fails)
Sense the Sin (intercept/+2 bleed)
Combat:
Majesty for untap
Earth Meld for untap
Form of Mist to continue
Does Zubeda have a good reason to be played now?
Assamites with presence?
pre/PRO bleeders?
If you can deplete your prey's minions' blood and force them to block
rather than bounce, The Unnamed can burn them in combat with the 2r
agg.
Just a few ideas. I think that the Unnamed is pretty strong,
especially in that it addresses discipline synergy problems within the
Baali and the pool loss problem for infernalism.
Brandon
brandonsantacruz
Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
dai: +1 stealth
dai obf: cancel a card that requires auspex as it is played
DAI OBF: as dai obf above and/or gain 1 pool of the action is
successful.
Awesome!
Bounce? No. And I get a pool. Eyes of Argus? Nope. Intercept? Forget
it.
Raziel
> Fleetness- Bleed and untap if successful
> Brandon
Fleetness
Action
Celerity
1 Blood
+1 stealth action.
[cel] (D) Bleed.
[CEL] (D) Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets
an optional maneuver during this combat.
Perhaps this:
Flurry of Action
Action
Celerity
[cel] (D) Bleed. If the bleed is successful, draw two cards (discard
afterward).
[CEL] (D) Bleed. If the bleed is successful, this vampire untaps.
brandonsantacruz
Correct, although Fleetness could still be a good card for him come to
think of it. 2r agg is nothing to sneeze at. Monster could be a good
source of multi-acting with that agg damage. Maybe some Psyche! too?
aaronmiller38
So here is a fun what if question.
Byzer goes out and finds the Soul Gem, and then is burned by the
Archons or in Baltimore of all places (Archon Investigation or
Baltimore Purge).
He goes to torpor instead of burning as per his special.
Do we get to see a free younger vampire with the Soul Gem?
I have a guess, but just wanted to put the question out there, as
other cards also work around burning vampires.
floppyzedolfin
I guess you don't get to have a new vampire, since Soul Gem's text
reads "If this vampire is burned,", which should never happen with
Byzar.
LSJ
Correct. Like not getting a Trophy for "almost" burning a Red List minion.
There are two things here: applying a "burn this thing" effect (which is what
Set's Curse and J:CS do) vs. responding to a "that thing is burned" event (which
is what Trophies and Soul Gems do).
Salem
> So here is a fun what if question.
>
> Byzer goes out and finds the Soul Gem, and then is burned by the
> Archons or in Baltimore of all places (Archon Investigation or
> Baltimore Purge).
how does Baltimore's Purge burn him?
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
aaronmiller38
Your correct Baltimore's Purge does not actually burn him :P
The special just saves you in the ensuing diableries that happen
afterwards.
Matthew T. Morgan
> aaronmiller38 wrote:
>> So here is a fun what if question.
>>
>> Byzer goes out and finds the Soul Gem, and then is burned by the
>> Archons or in Baltimore of all places (Archon Investigation or
>> Baltimore Purge).
>
> how does Baltimore's Purge burn him?
Self-diablerie! It's a card from the new set.
Malone
Let's say Byzar ["If Byzar would be burned, put a burn counter on him
and move him to torpor instead."] is in torpor with Fame ["If this
vampire goes into torpor, his or her controller burns 3 pool."] and
with 0 burn counters. Sandra White ["If Sandra diablerizes an older
vampire, the controller of that vampire burns 1 pool."] performs an
unblocked action to diablerize him.
Does Sandra diablerize him? My guess: yes. The diablerie action
triggers Byzar being burned and considers itself successful.
analogies: War Ghoul and Impundulu; bleed action and Major Boon
Does Byzar's controller burn (an additional) 3 pool for Fame? My
guess: no. Byzar does not leave torpor and thus cannot trigger Fame's
"goes INTO torpor" requirement.
If I guessed wrong, is anything different if Byzar already has 2 burn
counters (so the final result of Sandra's action is that he is removed
from the game)?
LSJ
> On Dec 16, 11:30 am, LSJ<vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> There are two things here: applying a "burn this thing" effect (which is what
>> Set's Curse and J:CS do) vs. responding to a "that thing is burned" event (which
>> is what Trophies and Soul Gems do).
>
> Let's say Byzar ["If Byzar would be burned, put a burn counter on him
> and move him to torpor instead."] is in torpor with Fame ["If this
> vampire goes into torpor, his or her controller burns 3 pool."] and
> with 0 burn counters. Sandra White ["If Sandra diablerizes an older
> vampire, the controller of that vampire burns 1 pool."] performs an
> unblocked action to diablerize him.
>
> Does Sandra diablerize him? My guess: yes. The diablerie action
> triggers Byzar being burned and considers itself successful.
> analogies: War Ghoul and Impundulu; bleed action and Major Boon
No. Analogy: Ashes to Ashes.
The action is successful (reaches resolution unblocked).
The diablerie is not.
> Does Byzar's controller burn (an additional) 3 pool for Fame? My
> guess: no. Byzar does not leave torpor and thus cannot trigger Fame's
> "goes INTO torpor" requirement.
Correct.
> If I guessed wrong, is anything different if Byzar already has 2 burn
> counters (so the final result of Sandra's action is that he is removed
> from the game)?
No. The diablerie is still thwarted, and Fame never cares about the target being
removed from the game.