Rules Team Rulings 20-OCT-2000
LSJ
1. COMBAT CARDS that are played at the end of a round of combat or at
the end of combat (either implicitly or explicitly), such as Pulled
Fangs, Disarm, and Amaranth, are playable when the round is ending by
a strike or other effect (e.g. Elysium) to end combat, or when the
round is ending due to one of the combatants being burned or sent to
torpor, or when the round is ending for lack of a press to continue.
This is a reversal of the ruling in RTR 28-SEP-1998. Note that a
card like superior Psyche! can still not be played if another combat
is already being started (if the first combat was ended with
Illusions of the Kindred, for example).
Example: if a vampire plays a S:CE as an additional strike, the
opposing vampire can still play Disarm (if he's inflicted
sufficient damage already in the first strike resolution phase, of
course).
2. SUDDEN REVERSAL and DIRECT INTERVENTION can only cancel cards that
are played from the hand in the normal fashion.
Cards put in play (from the hand, ash heap, library, or elsewhere) by
some means other than being played as normal are not subject to being
canceled by Sudden Reversal or Direct Intervention.
In particular, this ruling reverses the RTR 08-JUL-1996 ruling that
Sudden Reversal can target the cards put into play by Bindusara's
special ability. It also reverses LSJ 04-MAY-1999 regarding the
canceling of the weapon brought into play with Disguised Weapon (The
Disguised Weapon can be canceled, but if it is not, the weapon
brought out cannot be canceled by Direct Intervention). Other things
that cannot be canceled by Sudden Reversal or Direct Intervention:
Equipment brought out by Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth or Horrid
Reality, Discipline cards played when an Embrace or Third Tradition
or Creation Rites is played (or when a vampire diablerizes an older
vampire), etc.
Note: playing a card "as a vampire of capacity X with discipline D"
or paying less than the usual cost to play a card is still playing a
card in the normal sense. Cards played in these ways can still be
canceled as normal.
3. ASTRID THOMAS:
Q: If Kindred Coercion (sup) is used to change the votes of a Tremere
after Astrid has voted, does Astrid's ability still cause the
Tremere's votes to be cast "with" Astrid?
A: Yes. Astrid's ability is "checked" or "activated" when the votes
are tallied. The way her votes are cast at that time is how all other
(non-abstaining) Tremere's votes are cast.
4. ILLUSIONS OF THE KINDRED:
Q: If the vampire brought into play by Illusions of the Kindred is
burned in combat, is he put in the ash heap (being burned) or put out
of play (by Illusions of the Kindred's card text)?
A: The two effects (burn and remove from play) are occurring at the
same time (combat ends when the vampire is being burned), so the
acting Methuselah can order the events in any order she likes. If the
burn is done first, then the vampire will not be removed from play
(similar to the reason a Horrid Reality weapon won't be returned to
the library if it is burned first).
ADDENDUM FROM THE DESIGN TEAM:
Of the cards reprinted in the Sabbat War, a pair have been
unintentionally changed from the original:
5. CREATION RITES: The sentence "You may move a blood from the acting
vampire to this card." is omitted from the Sabbat War card. So there
will be errata to add that sentence once the Sabbat War is released.
6. POWER STRUCTURE requires Lasombra. The Sabbat War card omits the
Lasombra symbol, so this will be errata once the Sabbat War is
released.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Justicar
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> RULINGS:
>
> 1. COMBAT CARDS that are played at the end of a round of combat or at
> the end of combat (either implicitly or explicitly), such as Pulled
> Fangs, Disarm, and Amaranth, are playable when the round is ending by
> a strike or other effect (e.g. Elysium) to end combat, or when the
> round is ending due to one of the combatants being burned or sent to
> torpor, or when the round is ending for lack of a press to continue.
> This is a reversal of the ruling in RTR 28-SEP-1998. Note that a
> card like superior Psyche! can still not be played if another combat
> is already being started (if the first combat was ended with
> Illusions of the Kindred, for example).
>
> Example: if a vampire plays a S:CE as an additional strike, the
> opposing vampire can still play Disarm (if he's inflicted
> sufficient damage already in the first strike resolution phase, of
> course).
>
So that means Amaranth can now be played following a Rotschreck, right?
Yeeeeouchh.
That's gotta hurt, given that there are very few defences against that
sort of combo...
Justicar.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > 1. COMBAT CARDS that are played at the end of a round of combat or
> > at the end of combat (either implicitly or explicitly), such as
> > Pulled Fangs, Disarm, and Amaranth, are playable when the round is
> > ending by a strike or other effect (e.g. Elysium) to end combat, or
>
> right?
No. Amaranth can only be played in combat (it is a combat card) when
the opposing vampire is going to torpor.
Rotschreck ends combat while the "victim" vampire is still ready and
well. So Amaranth cannot be played.
After combat ends, Rotschreck sends the victim to torpor. Since it
is after combat, Amaranth cannot be played.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Eric Pettersen
> Justicar <just...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > > at the end of combat (either implicitly or explicitly), such as
> > > Pulled Fangs, Disarm, and Amaranth, are playable when the round is
> > > ending by a strike or other effect (e.g. Elysium) to end combat, or
> >
> > right?
>
> the opposing vampire is going to torpor.
>
> Rotschreck ends combat while the "victim" vampire is still ready and
> well. So Amaranth cannot be played.
> After combat ends, Rotschreck sends the victim to torpor. Since it
> is after combat, Amaranth cannot be played.
But, cards fully resolve before other cards can be played (barring DI/SR),
right? After Rotschreck resolves, all the conditions for playing Amaranth
seem to be applicable. The ruling being quoted seems to be allowing combat
cards to be played "outside of combat" -- in particular after a 'combat
ends' effect (e.g. Rotschreck). So I don't see how saying "Amaranth can
only be played in combat" is applicable.
---
Eric Pettersen
pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)
LSJ
> > Rotschreck ends combat while the "victim" vampire is still ready and
> > well. So Amaranth cannot be played.
> > After combat ends, Rotschreck sends the victim to torpor. Since it
> > is after combat, Amaranth cannot be played.
>
> But, cards fully resolve before other cards can be played (barring DI/SR),
> right? After Rotschreck resolves, all the conditions for playing Amaranth
> seem to be applicable.
One of the conditions for playing Amaranth is that you be in combat
(since Amaranth is a combat card).
This condition, as stated above, is not met after Rotschreck is played.
> The ruling being quoted seems to be allowing combat
> cards to be played "outside of combat" -- in particular after a 'combat
The ruling states that combat cards that are played at the end of a round
are playable "at the end of the round" (inside of combat) even if combat
is ending via S:CE.
> ends' effect (e.g. Rotschreck). So I don't see how saying "Amaranth can
> only be played in combat" is applicable.
Because it is a combat card.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Eric Pettersen
after Rotschreck. I just think that you can't deduce that it doesn't work
simply from the text of the RTR and the online rulebook, i.e. a clarification
is required.
For reference, the pertinent part of the RTR is:
1. COMBAT CARDS that are played at the end of a round of combat or at the
end of combat (either implicitly or explicitly), such as Pulled Fangs,
Disarm, and Amaranth, are playable when the round is ending by a strike
or other effect (e.g. Elysium) to end combat, or when the round is ending
due to one of the combatants being burned or sent to torpor, or when the
round is ending for lack of a press to continue.
The online rulebook has this to say about S:CE:
Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is
always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with First
Strike, and ends combat before other strikes can be resolved or any
damage dealt.
Clearly, the RTR is somehow overruling the rulebook here, to allow "end
of combat" cards to work.
The RTR implies that combat is not "truly over" after a S:CE, since some
cards restricted to the combat phase are still playable. If Amaranth is
playable after Rotschreck has resolved and somehow the combat phase is
not yet over, it would seem that all the conditions for Amaranth are
fulfilled. If combat is indeed over after the Rotschreck, then Amaranth
is unplayable but so are all the as-combat-ends cards.
I think it needs to be clarified that these "as combat ends" cards work
in an analogous manner to the "as combat is entered" card: Thoughts
Betrayed; they are the very last part of combat. The more important
clarification is that if an effect ends combat and has other post-combat
effects (e.g. Rotschreck, Mariel, Catatonic Fear), then these "as combat
ends" cards are treated as resolving just after the CE takes effect and
before any post-CE effects.
To respond explicitly to the points you made:
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Eric Pettersen wrote:
> > > Rotschreck ends combat while the "victim" vampire is still ready
> > > and well. So Amaranth cannot be played. After combat ends, Rotschreck
> > > sends the victim to torpor. Since it is after combat, Amaranth cannot
> > > be played.
> >
> > But, cards fully resolve before other cards can be played (barring
> > DI/SR), right? After Rotschreck resolves, all the conditions for
> > playing Amaranth seem to be applicable.
>
> One of the conditions for playing Amaranth is that you be in combat
> (since Amaranth is a combat card).
>
> This condition, as stated above, is not met after Rotschreck is played.
I guess I disagree. The RTR allows Amaranth to be played after a
combat-ending effect (such as Rotschreck).
>
> > The ruling being quoted seems to be allowing combat
> > cards to be played "outside of combat" -- in particular after a 'combat
>
> The ruling states that combat cards that are played at the end of a
> round are playable "at the end of the round" (inside of combat) even if
> combat is ending via S:CE.
Cards do fully resolve before another is played, right? If Rotschreck
has fully resolved and Amaranth is still playable (as per RTR), then all
the card text conditions for Amaranth are fulfilled.
>
> > ends' effect (e.g. Rotschreck). So I don't see how saying "Amaranth
> > can only be played in combat" is applicable.
>
> Because it is a combat card.
The RTR is making an exception (or else the online rulebook needs correction).
LSJ
> First, I want to say that I have no problem with Amaranth not working
> after Rotschreck. I just think that you can't deduce that it doesn't
> work simply from the text of the RTR and the online rulebook, i.e. a
> clarification is required.
It should be clear: Rotschreck ends combat before any damage is
done, therefore combat ends before the vampire is wounded therefore
Amaranth cannot be played. After combat ends, Amaranth (a combat
card) cannot be played.
> For reference, the pertinent part of the RTR is:
> 1. COMBAT CARDS that are played at the end of a round of combat or at
> the end of combat (either implicitly or explicitly), such as Pulled
> Fangs, Disarm, and Amaranth, are playable when the round is ending by
> a strike or other effect (e.g. Elysium) to end combat, or when the
> round is ending due to one of the combatants being burned or sent to
> torpor, or when the round is ending for lack of a press to continue.
>
> The online rulebook has this to say about S:CE:
> Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike
> is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with First
> Strike, and ends combat before other strikes can be resolved or any
> damage dealt.
>
> Clearly, the RTR is somehow overruling the rulebook here, to allow
> "end of combat" cards to work.
No. S:CE Ends Combat. If Amaranth can be played at that time (somehow
one of the combatants is suddenly going to torpor due to being
damaged in the end of combat period - say from a superior DotB - then
it can be played. QED. This does not overrule the rule that says
S:CE ends combat when it resolves.
> The RTR implies that combat is not "truly over" after a S:CE, since
> some cards restricted to the combat phase are still playable. If
> Amaranth is playable after Rotschreck has resolved and somehow the
> combat phase is not yet over, it would seem that all the conditions
> for Amaranth are fulfilled. If combat is indeed over after the
> Rotschreck, then Amaranth is unplayable but so are all the
> as-combat-ends cards.
No. S:CE causes combat to end. Which necessarily causes the round
to end. Rotschreck operates the same way.
If in either of those cases, a vampire finds himself on his way to
torpor during the end of the round/combat, then Amaranth can be played.
For Rotschreck, Rotschreck's effect doesn't send the victim to torpor
until after combat, so you'll need some extra effect, like superior
DotB, to send the combatant to torpor in combat.
Ex:
A is blocked by B. A plays Dawn Op. Combat Begins. A plays sup
Drawing Out the Beast. No maneuvers. Both strike: hands.
Someone plays Rotschreck on B. Combat Ends, which means B takes
1 agg damage from DotB in combat. A plays Amaranth, burning B
before Rotschreck can begin to send him to torpor.
Or, after hand strikes are declared:
Someone plays Rotschreck on A. Combat Ends, which means B takes
1 agg damage from DotB in combat. A plays Amaranth (legal since
A is not going to torpor at this time), burning B. Then, by
Rotschreck's effect, A goes to torpor.
> I think it needs to be clarified that these "as combat ends" cards
> work in an analogous manner to the "as combat is entered" card:
> Thoughts Betrayed; they are the very last part of combat. The more
> important clarification is that if an effect ends combat and has other
> post-combat effects (e.g. Rotschreck, Mariel, Catatonic Fear), then
> these "as combat ends" cards are treated as resolving just after the
> CE takes effect and before any post-CE effects.
You want clarification that "as combat ends" cards are to be played
as combat ends?
> To respond explicitly to the points you made:
>
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Eric Pettersen wrote:
> > > > Rotschreck ends combat while the "victim" vampire is still ready
> > > > and well. So Amaranth cannot be played. After combat ends,
> > > > Rotschreck sends the victim to torpor. Since it is after combat,
> > > > Amaranth cannot be played.
> > >
> > > But, cards fully resolve before other cards can be played (barring
> > > DI/SR), right? After Rotschreck resolves, all the conditions for
> > > playing Amaranth seem to be applicable.
> >
> > One of the conditions for playing Amaranth is that you be in combat
> > (since Amaranth is a combat card).
> >
> > This condition, as stated above, is not met after Rotschreck is
> > played.
>
> I guess I disagree. The RTR allows Amaranth to be played after a
> combat-ending effect (such as Rotschreck).
Yes, if the victim is going to torpor.
Which is not generally true with Rotschreck - it requires some
in-combat effect to torporize the victim.
> > > The ruling being quoted seems to be allowing combat
> > > cards to be played "outside of combat" -- in particular after a
> > > 'combat
> >
> > The ruling states that combat cards that are played at the end of a
> > round are playable "at the end of the round" (inside of combat) even
> > if combat is ending via S:CE.
>
> Cards do fully resolve before another is played, right? If Rotschreck
> has fully resolved and Amaranth is still playable (as per RTR), then
> all the card text conditions for Amaranth are fulfilled.
Not always. Obviously action cards and strikes do not fully resolve
before other cards are played. Many cards set up effects that happen
later (Weather Control, etc.) and some cards have extended effect
that span phases (Illusions of the Kindred, Rotschreck, etc.)
The RTR doesn't say that Amaranth is playable after combat, as you
state.
It says that Amaranth is playable after an effect to end combat.
But it also doesn't say that the requirement on Amaranth that the
victim be on his way to torpor is somehow removed.
> > > ends' effect (e.g. Rotschreck). So I don't see how saying
> > > "Amaranth can only be played in combat" is applicable.
> >
> > Because it is a combat card.
>
> The RTR is making an exception (or else the online rulebook needs
> correction).
The RTR is not making an exception.
It allows "as combat is ending" effects to be played "as combat is
ending" even if combat is ending from some card's effect.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
James Coupe
> After combat ends, Rotschreck sends the victim to torpor. Since it
> is after combat, Amaranth cannot be played.
If the "combat ends" effect of Majesty can be interrupted with an
Amaranth, why cannot the "combat ends" effect of Rotschreck be similarly
interrupted?
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him.
I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin
with him and the way he makes me feel?"
Joe C.
100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, LSJ wrote:
>
> > After combat ends, Rotschreck sends the victim to torpor. Since it
> > is after combat, Amaranth cannot be played.
>
> If the "combat ends" effect of Majesty can be interrupted with an
> Amaranth, why cannot the "combat ends" effect of Rotschreck be
> similarly interrupted?
Could be that you're not going to Torpor due to combat, but rather via
the effect of Rotschreck which sends you to Torpor outside of combat.
Joe C.
-
V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC
Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter
www.warghoul.com
LSJ
>
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, LSJ wrote:
>
> > After combat ends, Rotschreck sends the victim to torpor. Since it
> > is after combat, Amaranth cannot be played.
>
> If the "combat ends" effect of Majesty can be interrupted with an
> Amaranth, why cannot the "combat ends" effect of Rotschreck be similarly
> interrupted?
It can be, but only if the condition on Amaranth that the victim be
on his way to torpor is met at that time.
This is not generally true, as Rotschreck ends combat before the damage
in question is resolved and doesn't send the victim to torpor until after
combat (at which time it is too late to play Rotschreck).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
James Coupe
> > If the "combat ends" effect of Majesty can be interrupted with an
> > Amaranth, why cannot the "combat ends" effect of Rotschreck be similarly
> > interrupted?
>
> It can be, but only if the condition on Amaranth that the victim be
> on his way to torpor is met at that time.
Ah, this is where my confusion came in.
I thought the prohibition on cards after Rotschreck was somewhat more
blanket than it is.
Mike Nudd
>
>It should be clear: Rotschreck ends combat before any damage is
>done, therefore combat ends before the vampire is wounded therefore
>Amaranth cannot be played. After combat ends, Amaranth (a combat
>card) cannot be played.
>
To me it would make sense to clarify things in the following manner:
a) Some cards (e.g. Majesty, Earth Meld) have effects which
immediately move you to the end of the combat round, where 'end of
round' and 'end of combat' effects (e.g Drawing Out the Beast at
superior, Psyche at superior) would still take place.
b) Some cards (e.g. Rotschrek, fulfilment of Anathema) have effects
which end combat immediately and prematurely, ignoring and cancelling
the resolution of all other subsequent combat effects.
Would this be a correct and apt way of putting things?
Regards,
Mike Nudd
VEKN Prince of London
mi...@vekn.org.uk
http://www.vtes.org.uk
LSJ
>
> >
> >It should be clear: Rotschreck ends combat before any damage is
> >done, therefore combat ends before the vampire is wounded therefore
> >Amaranth cannot be played. After combat ends, Amaranth (a combat
> >card) cannot be played.
> >
>
>
> a) Some cards (e.g. Majesty, Earth Meld) have effects which
> immediately move you to the end of the combat round, where 'end of
> round' and 'end of combat' effects (e.g Drawing Out the Beast at
> superior, Psyche at superior) would still take place.
>
> b) Some cards (e.g. Rotschrek, fulfilment of Anathema) have effects
> which end combat immediately and prematurely, ignoring and cancelling
> the resolution of all other subsequent combat effects.
>
> Would this be a correct and apt way of putting things?
Any effect that ends combat necessarily ends the round as well.
Any effect that can be legally played when the round ends can
be legally played when the round ends.
This applies to Majesty, Earth Meld, Rotschreck, fullfillment of Anathema,
etc. The "problem" is that most of the time, the cards/effects that can
be played at the end of the round have conditions that are not met when
Majesty/Rotschreck resolve.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Eric Pettersen
> pe...@address.is.in.sig (Eric Pettersen) wrote:
> > First, I want to say that I have no problem with Amaranth not working
> > after Rotschreck. I just think that you can't deduce that it doesn't
> > work simply from the text of the RTR and the online rulebook, i.e. a
> > clarification is required.
>
> It should be clear: Rotschreck ends combat before any damage is
> done, therefore combat ends before the vampire is wounded therefore
> Amaranth cannot be played. After combat ends, Amaranth (a combat
> card) cannot be played.
I'm sensing an "agree to disagree" situation here. As I see it, you do
not feel that a clarification is needed that a "as combat ends" type card
physically played after a "combat ends" effect essentially "backs up" to
the point where combat is ending to resolve the "as combat ends" effect.
I.e. even though Rotschreck is sending a vampire to torpor, Amaranth is
unplayable because it is treated as occuring at the end of combat, and at
that point the opposing vampire is not yet wounded (at least, not from
Rotschreck). I guess I feel it best if that were an official clarification,
but I'll deal.
As a side question, what is the timimg of Psyche! ? Is it considered to
occur just after combat has ended and before any post-combat effects (which
would allow Psyching out of a Rotschreck [or Mummify :-)]), or do post-combat
effects occur before the Psyche! (which might be problematic in relation
to Form of Mist).
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > It should be clear: Rotschreck ends combat before any damage is
> > done, therefore combat ends before the vampire is wounded therefore
> > Amaranth cannot be played. After combat ends, Amaranth (a combat
> > card) cannot be played.
>
> I'm sensing an "agree to disagree" situation here. As I see it, you
> do not feel that a clarification is needed that a "as combat ends"
> type card physically played after a "combat ends" effect essentially
> "backs up" to the point where combat is ending to resolve the "as
> combat ends" effect.
It doesn't "back up". It is played (if playable) when the combat
(or round) ends, which is a necessary part of any effect that ends
combat.
> I.e. even though Rotschreck is sending a vampire to torpor, Amaranth
> is unplayable because it is treated as occuring at the end of combat,
> and at that point the opposing vampire is not yet wounded (at least,
> not from Rotschreck). I guess I feel it best if that were an
> official clarification, but I'll deal.
Yes, after a fashion.
Amaranth isn't played after the vampire is sent to torpor by
Rotschreck. It is played when Rotschreck ends combat (if it
is playable at that time), before moving on and allowing
Rotschreck's effect to (after combat) send the victim to
torpor.
> As a side question, what is the timimg of Psyche! ? Is it considered
> to occur just after combat has ended and before any post-combat
> effects (which would allow Psyching out of a Rotschreck [or Mummify
> :-)]), or do post-combat effects occur before the Psyche! (which
> might be problematic in relation to Form of Mist).
Psyche! - Combat (cel)
* The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card
is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]
You cannot Psyche! out of Rotschreck, since it is played after combat,
and the vampire is not ready (a requirement given on Psyche!) at that
time.
This ruling poses no problem with Form of Mist.
LSJ
> > considered to occur just after combat has ended and before
> > any post-combat effects (which would allow Psyching out of a
> > Rotschreck [or Mummify :-)])
>
> combat, and the vampire is not ready (a requirement given on
> Psyche!) at that time.
I guess the "proper" explanation would be more along the lines
of "Psyche! cannot be played if a disruptive event is already
scheduled to occur", following the same logic that a new combat
and/or being sent to torpor and/or committing diablerie are
sufficient to "disrupt" a "continue the action" effect.
[RTR 09-MAY-1995], [TOM 23-MAY-1995], [FAQ 25-SEP-1995],
[TOM 01-OCT-1995], [LSJ 29-SEP-1997], [LSJ 19-AUG-1998]
This explanation works for the Illusions of the Kindred case as
well (Psyche! cannot be played after a combat ended before
range with the play of Illusions of the Kindred since there is
already a combat - a disruptive event - scheduled to occur).
James Coupe
> I.e. even though Rotschreck is sending a vampire to torpor, Amaranth is
> unplayable because it is treated as occuring at the end of combat, and at
No, no. I get this now.
The point is:
Rotschreck says "Combat ends". During all that time that the "Combat
ends" bit is resolving you can play the cards that work at the end of
combat.
But, once you get past "combat ends", comabt is *over*. Completely over.
The vampire only goes to torpor after that, outside of combat.
Noal McDonald
> The point is:
> Rotschreck says "Combat ends". During all that time that the "Combat
> ends" bit is resolving you can play the cards that work at the end of
> combat.
>
> But, once you get past "combat ends", comabt is *over*. Completely
> over.
>
> The vampire only goes to torpor after that, outside of combat.
...and just to clarify, if the damage from Catatonic Fear or Riposte
sends the vampire to torpor, the same situation exists.
Regards
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
LSJ
>
> James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > The point is:
> > Rotschreck says "Combat ends". During all that time that the "Combat
> > ends" bit is resolving you can play the cards that work at the end of
> > combat.
> >
> > But, once you get past "combat ends", comabt is *over*. Completely
> > over.
> >
> > The vampire only goes to torpor after that, outside of combat.
>
> ...and just to clarify, if the damage from Catatonic Fear or Riposte
> sends the vampire to torpor, the same situation exists.
Right.
Similarly, you cannot Amaranth a Undead Persistence vampire, since he
also does not go to torpor until after the combat is over.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Petri Wessman
>> ...and just to clarify, if the damage from Catatonic Fear or Riposte
>> sends the vampire to torpor, the same situation exists.
LSJ> Right.
LSJ> Similarly, you cannot Amaranth a Undead Persistence vampire, since he
LSJ> also does not go to torpor until after the combat is over.
...but a vampire using Undead Persistence could use Amaranth on the
opponent, assuming the opponent was going into torpor, right? Since
the UP'd vampire is not going to torpor right then, the "not usable by
a vampires going into torpor" part would not apply.
//Petri
LSJ
> ...but a vampire using Undead Persistence could use Amaranth on the
> opponent, assuming the opponent was going into torpor, right? Since
> the UP'd vampire is not going to torpor right then, the "not usable by
> a vampires going into torpor" part would not apply.
Online rulings:
Combat
* Cards which are not usable by vampires going to Torpor only check to
see if the vampire is currently going to torpor, not if the vampire
will be going to Torpor later. E.g., A vampire with Undead Persistence
can still play these types of cards. [LSJ 04-MAR-1997]
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.