Uriah Winter Q
floppyzedolfin
kindly gave me Uriah previously in the game, to avoid grouping
questions).
I also control an Army of Rats.
My predator ends his turn. I start mine with 1 pool, and my prey has 2
pool.
So Uriah should be taken by my prey during my untap phase.
During my untap phase, I decide to apply the Army of Rats and John's
special ability before giving away Uriah. My prey is ousted.
What happens to Uriah? (burns and returns to genuine controller's ash
heap; removed from the game; stays under my control; is taken by my
new prey; ..)
Thanks,
~~
Army of Rats
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Animalism
+1 stealth action.
[ani] Put this card in play. During your untap phase, your prey burns
1 pool. You may only burn 1 pool each turn with Army of Rats cards.
Any minion can burn the Army of Rats as a (D) action.
John Paleologus
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Tzimisce
Group: 3
Capacity: 9
Discipline: pot ANI AUS CEL VIC
Sabbat Archbishop of Istanbul: During your untap phase, if John is
ready, he may burn 2 blood to cause your prey to burn 1 pool
Uriah Winter
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Caitiff
Group: 1
Capacity: 1
Discipline: for pot
Camarilla: If your prey has more pool than you do at the beginning of
your untap phase, he or she takes control of Uriah during your untap
phase.
LSJ
> I control Uriah Winter and John Paleologus (let's just say my predator
> kindly gave me Uriah previously in the game, to avoid grouping
> questions).
> I also control an Army of Rats.
>
> My predator ends his turn. I start mine with 1 pool, and my prey has 2
> pool.
> So Uriah should be taken by my prey during my untap phase.
>
> During my untap phase, I decide to apply the Army of Rats and John's
> special ability before giving away Uriah. My prey is ousted.
>
> What happens to Uriah? (burns and returns to genuine controller's ash
> heap; removed from the game; stays under my control; is taken by my
> new prey; ..)
Control is transfered to the ousted Methuselah, so Uriah leaves the
game.
Kevin M.
> floppyzedolfin wrote:
>> I control Uriah Winter and John Paleologus (let's just say my
>> predator kindly gave me Uriah previously in the game, to avoid
>> grouping questions).
>> I also control an Army of Rats.
>>
>> My predator ends his turn. I start mine with 1 pool, and my prey has
>> 2 pool.
>> So Uriah should be taken by my prey during my untap phase.
>>
>> During my untap phase, I decide to apply the Army of Rats and John's
>> special ability before giving away Uriah. My prey is ousted.
>>
>> What happens to Uriah? (burns and returns to genuine controller's ash
>> heap; removed from the game; stays under my control; is taken by my
>> new prey; ..)
>
> Control is transfered to the ousted Methuselah, so Uriah leaves the
> game.
Why couldn't you just order all these "during untap" effects,
so that PreyAlpha dies to AoR and John, and then you'd
be able to "give" Uriah to PreyBeta?
Aeschere
normally choose in which order you do certain things as long as they
all go off at the same time. For instance Fame and Vessel. But in this
case you have to apply Uriah's effect at the start before you can
handle off the other effects.
Jozxyqk
Not sure exactly which question you're replying to (please be kind, quote
what you're answering!), but this is slightly wrong.
The way the untap phase is structured, you do "checks" just before untapping
everything, to record the state of things (Uriah, Bartholomew, Club Zombie,
etc). Then you untap everything. Then you do the 'During your untap
phase, do Y' effects in any order you want. If there's a mandatory effect,
you just have to perform it before the phase ends.
It is NOT parallel to mandatory Actions (hunting while empty, etc) that
must be performed before other actions; that's something special about the
minion phase.
LSJ
Aeschere is correct. The pool check effect ("Uriah's effect") happens
at the start of the untap phase (card text), setting up an effect that
must be handled during the untap phase.
Izaak
"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> schreef in bericht
news:i0n33h$nrs$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Not sure what you're responding to, but that's not what he's saying. Certain
things happen "at the start of your untap phase" while others happen "during
your untap phase". Obviously the former events must be handled before the
latter. Your examples both miss the mark as both Club Zombie and Bartholomew
state "at the beginning of your TURN", not "at the beginning of your untap
phase".
Also, untapping your stuff happens "at the start of your untap phase" (as
per rulebook), and it's actually the first thing that happens before you do
anything else. You can't for example choose to handle Uriah's cardtext
before untapping so she will be tapped when your prey takes control of her.
Jozxyqk
Semantics, but this is exactly what I intended to say.
I was just pointing out that Uriah's text requires things to happen at
2 different times during the untap phase: the "check" (which must happen
along with other beginning-of-turn effects) and the "execute" (which
can happen any time you want before you exit the untap phase).
jack tm
1. Beginning:
- My prey has more pool then me.
2. During:
- Effect of Army of Rats. Prey loses one pool.
- Effect of Paleologus. Prey loses two pool.
- My prey is ousted.
- I gain a VP and 6 pools.
- Prey takes control over Uriah
Let's see. At this point, my prey is my former grandprey. Doesn't he
gets take control over Uriah?
Is he still part of the play?
How can an ousted player take control over a card? Is there a
difference whether someone was
ousted 10 seconds or an hour before?
Does the effect of Uriah have a legal target at this point?
Shouldn't the effect fizzle?
Please clarify.
thanks
Jack
Teeka
You almost got it. This is how it goes:
1. Beginning:
- My prey, [player X], has more pool then me.
-> Uriah will, when his effect resolves, [switch to player X].
2. During:
- Effect of Army of Rats. Prey loses one pool.
- Effect of Paleologus. Prey loses two pool.
- My prey is ousted.
- I gain a VP and 6 pool.
- [Player X] takes control over Uriah
-> since player X is no longer in the game, Uriah is removed from the
game instead.
LSJ
Correct. Uriah's test (which occurs at the start of the untap phase)
adds the effect
"Player X takes control of Uriah"
to the "during this untap phase" window.
> 2. During:
> - Effect of Army of Rats. Prey loses one pool.
> - Effect of Paleologus. Prey loses two pool.
> - My prey is ousted.
> - I gain a VP and 6 pool.
> - [Player X] takes control over Uriah
> -> since player X is no longer in the game, Uriah is removed from the
> game instead.
Correct.
Daneel
wrote:
> On Jul 3, 4:38 pm, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You almost got it. This is how it goes:
>>
>> 1. Beginning:
>> - My prey, [player X], has more pool then me.
>> -> Uriah will, when his effect resolves, [switch to player X].
>
> Correct. Uriah's test (which occurs at the start of the untap phase)
> adds the effect
>
> "Player X takes control of Uriah"
>
> to the "during this untap phase" window.
I control Uriah and have the same amount of pool as my prey at the
start of my untap phase. If I also control a tapped infernal Baali,
and spend a pool to untap dysquxtlplct during my untap phase, will
transfer of Uriah trigger, or will I already be safe from it during
the current untap phase?
--
Regards,
Daneel
Aeschere
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 13:53:42 -0700 (PDT), LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com>
You are already save from it since the infernal cost has to be paid
during your untap which is later then Uriah's "At the start of the
untap phase".
floppyzedolfin
> "Jozxyqk" <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> schreef in berichtnews:i0n33h$nrs$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Since there's nothing before your untap phase in your turn (we don't
have "pre-untap phase" or "first-nameless-phase" in VTES), the
beginning of your turn and the beginning of your untap phase are the
same thing.
Izaak
>Since there's nothing before your untap phase in your turn (we don't
>have "pre-untap phase" or "first-nameless-phase" in VTES), the
>beginning of your turn and the beginning of your untap phase are the
>same thing.
Except that stuff that needs to be checked at the start of your turn, is
checked before your untap phase.
Such as Bartholomew's special. If "the beginning of my untap phase" and "the
beginning of my turn" would be exactly the same thing, I can choose to untap
Bartholomew first, then check if he's untapped (Geez, surprise! He is!) and
gain a pool.
Clearly not legal, hence the differentiation between beginning of turn and
beginning of untap phase.
LSJ
> >Since there's nothing before your untap phase in your turn (we don't
> >have "pre-untap phase" or "first-nameless-phase" in VTES), the
> >beginning of your turn and the beginning of your untap phase are the
> >same thing.
>
> Except that stuff that needs to be checked at the start of your turn, is
> checked before your untap phase.
And before your turn.
Your turn starts with your untap phase.
There is no portion of your turn that occurs before the untap phase of
that turn.
The start of your turn = the start of your untap phase.
> Such as Bartholomew's special. If "the beginning of my untap phase" and "the
> beginning of my turn" would be exactly the same thing, I can choose to untap
> Bartholomew first, then check if he's untapped (Geez, surprise! He is!) and
> gain a pool.
Once you untap Batholomew, you are no longer at the beginning of your
untap phase.
Your turn starts with your untap phase.
Note any parts of game state that needs to be noted at the beginning
of your untap phase/turn, then begin your turn by untapping all of
your cards.
When you do that, you are no longer at the beginning of your turn.
Untapping your cards puts you in the "during your untap phase" time.
So then you apply other "during your untap phase" effects, including
those that were/are contingent on the state of the game at the start
of your untap phase/turn.
Izaak
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> schreef in bericht
news:0ad474af-b9c0-47e8...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>And before your turn.
From the rulebook (section 4)
A) At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards.
You just said:
B) The start of your turn = the start of your untap phase.
Assuming that my English is somewhat right then "beginning of" and "start
of" are exactly the same thing in this context.
Thus, putting these together we get: Beginning of turn = beginning of untap
phase.
Therefore, Bartholomew's special and untapping my cards happen during the
same time window. When different effects happen at the same time, I get to
choose in which order to apply those effects (ie, Vessel and Fame). So
exactly which part of the rules disallow me to first untap Barth and then
check if he's untapped? I know it's not possible, but that's because I
(wrongly) assumed you would first start your turn and check "start of turn"
stuff before moving on to untap.
I'd guess because I can't untap cards 1 by 1 but instead have to untap them
all and when I've done so my 'beginning of untap phase' magically ends even
though I haven't made all the neccesary checks yet. But if it that's the
case, and I do control Uriah Winter and I do have less pool than my prey, I
could just choose to untap my cards first, thereby magically ending the
'beginning of untap phase' and keep control of Uriah.
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vtes...@white-wolf.com> schreef in berichtnews:0ad474af-b9c0-47e8...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> >Once you untap Batholomew, you are no longer at the beginning of your
> >untap phase.
> >Your turn starts with your untap phase.
> >Note any parts of game state that needs to be noted at the beginning
> >of your untap phase/turn, then begin your turn by untapping all of
> >your cards.
> >When you do that, you are no longer at the beginning of your turn.
> >Untapping your cards puts you in the "during your untap phase" time.
> >So then you apply other "during your untap phase" effects, including
> >those that were/are contingent on the state of the game at the start
> >of your untap phase/turn.
>
> From the rulebook (section 4)
>
> A) At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards.
Yes.
> You just said:
>
> B) The start of your turn = the start of your untap phase.
Yes.
> Assuming that my English is somewhat right then "beginning of" and "start
> of" are exactly the same thing in this context.
True.
> Thus, putting these together we get: Beginning of turn = beginning of untap
> phase.
Yes.
> Therefore, Bartholomew's special and untapping my cards happen during the
> same time window.
No.
Bartholomew has an effect contingent on game state at the beginning of
your turn (at the beginning of your untap phase), which is before you
untap your cards.
If you check to see if some condition had been true "at the start of
your turn/untap phase", then that means your checking the game state
as it was at that instance.
Quite different than being allowed to perform some activity in a
particular timing window (which, necessarily, means something other
than "at an instant").
> When different effects happen at the same time, I get to
> choose in which order to apply those effects (ie, Vessel and Fame).
Except for "untap all your cards", which cannot be ordered after other
effects, but instead must be the first thing you do in your untap
phase. (The sentence in section 4 of the rulebook after the one you
quoted above).
> So
> exactly which part of the rules disallow me to first untap Barth and then
> check if he's untapped?
His card text: "If Bartholomew is untapped at the beginning of your
turn".
(You might make a different case about ambiguity here -- this is
checking his state at the beginning of you turn, not checking to see
if he actually untaps at the beginning of your turn -- but the case
you are making, that you can check game state after untapping because
after untapping, you'd still somehow be in the "at the start of the
phase/turn" window is not true -- you're checking game state as it was
at the instant your turn/untap phase began.)
> I know it's not possible, but that's because I
> (wrongly) assumed you would first start your turn and check "start of turn"
> stuff before moving on to untap.
You check game state at the start, before doing stuff (and the first
"stuff" you do is always "untap all your cards").
Or rather, you can check game state at any time (checking is not an
effect), but the effects we're discussing all refer back to game state
as it was "at the start of your turn/untap phase".
> I'd guess because I can't untap cards 1 by 1 but instead have to untap them
> all and when I've done so my 'beginning of untap phase' magically ends even
> though I haven't made all the neccesary checks yet.
There's no window to end. Game state at the start of your turn is
simply the state of the game at the start of your turn. There aren't
two different sets of game state at that instant (one in which you
have not untapped your cards and one in which you have), there's just
the one.
> But if it that's the
> case, and I do control Uriah Winter and I do have less pool than my prey, I
> could just choose to untap my cards first, thereby magically ending the
> 'beginning of untap phase' and keep control of Uriah.
Hardly. Uriah moves "during" your untap phase (card text).
Uriah's text also checks game state as it is at the beginning of your
turn (card text).
Kevin M.
> Bartholomew has an effect contingent on game state at the beginning
> of your turn (at the beginning of your untap phase), which is before you
> untap your cards.
Would it be appropriate to add to the Rules Outline a III.A.0., then,
for these kinds of "before you untap your cards" effects?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > Bartholomew has an effect contingent on game state at the beginning
> > of your turn (at the beginning of your untap phase), which is before you
> > untap your cards.
>
> Would it be appropriate to add to the Rules Outline a III.A.0., then,
> for these kinds of "before you untap your cards" effects?
No. Bartholomew's effect, the one that happens "during your untap
phase", just so happens to be conditional on the game state at some
earlier time (namely the game state at the start of the turn).